Rubber Trees

[Bonfi]

Plenty of views, but nothing forthcoming so far, isnt it near the end of the cutting season? and you good farmers have a little time now?

Do any of you agree with the link below, are rubber prices really that high?

http://www.unogomes....n-thailand.html

Thanks,

55 KG / Rai /month....... I pray.....

[jamescollister]

Hi all

Yesterday I awoke to see something that I had not seen in months. THE SUN. We had our first full tap since I can't remember, 138 sheets of rubber. The world was suddenly a good place and the money was coming again. My fears of having to go on a diet of sticky rice and frog were vanished.

Today it is black and the sound of thunder and rain is all I can hear, can some one stop the rain, Or I better get used to sticky rice and frogs and learn to drink Lao Kow, as I won't be able to afford beer. Jim

[barrybike]

Hi all

Yesterday I awoke to see something that I had not seen in months. THE SUN. We had our first full tap since I can't remember, 138 sheets of rubber. The world was suddenly a good place and the money was coming again. My fears of having to go on a diet of sticky rice and frog were vanished.

Today it is black and the sound of thunder and rain is all I can hear, can some one stop the rain, Or I better get used to sticky rice and frogs and learn to drink Lao Kow, as I won't be able to afford beer. Jim

hopefully the rain will stop soon jim and all will return back to normal

[tothemark]

Cup rubber at 40 bht a kilo and mats at 80 bht a kilo in our area today..

Thats a 20% drop in two days, hows everyone else finding prices ?

At this rate we are tempted to hold mats for a month or two and not sell.

[jamescollister]

Cup rubber at 40 bht a kilo and mats at 80 bht a kilo in our area today..

Thats a 20% drop in two days, hows everyone else finding prices ?

At this rate we are tempted to hold mats for a month or two and not sell.

Looks like GFC 2, we sold every piece of rubber we had and it looks like we were not alone. Government buyers ran out of money at lunch time and people were still there selling at 5 pm. I got burnt at GFC one had a shed full of rubber, price dropped to 35 Baht for RSS. This Greek thing may plunge the world into depression and China will go to.

Will have to see what happens over the next few days, but I am trying to sort out a deal with the tappers to keep them, if the price drops more they will be off to BKK to work. Sad as it may sound I may have to head back to OZ, as happened in the GFC. Bad things are happening. Jim

[Mosha]

Wow we sold some just in time. Oils down, car production is down, and China and the USA are slowing.

http://www.commodityonline.com/commodities/plantation/rubber.php

[jamescollister]

Go figure, the heads of the world having emergency meeting to save the global economy from melt down and the rubber price climbs 3 Baht a kilo. Jim

[IsaanAussie]

Go figure, the heads of the world having emergency meeting to save the global economy from melt down and the rubber price climbs 3 Baht a kilo. Jim

I can remember watching a old western movie where the local newspaper editor would comment "If we are ever to have law and order in the wild west, first thing we need to do is take out all the (insert problem makers) and shoot them down like dogs!" Sounds like commodity traders and futures players should be inserted in that statement.

Argh, rubber, a truely elastic commodity Yippee Yai Yo.

Edited November 3, 2011 by IsaanAussie

[Gippy]

1320233202[/url]' post='4816642']

Cup rubber at 40 bht a kilo and mats at 80 bht a kilo in our area today..

Thats a 20% drop in two days, hows everyone else finding prices ?

At this rate we are tempted to hold mats for a month or two and not sell.

49.6 for cup today, down 10% from 10 days ago,

[kolohe]

45 for a cup today. A week ago it was 51 at our normal buyer but we saw places offering 46-48 last week as well.

[customcurb]

Can I get input as to the price relation between what's being stated on this thread and what I read on http://www.thainr.com/en/index.php?detail=pr-local and and http://www.rubberthai.com/rubberthai/ ? Thanks all

[Mosha]

The prices we talk of are either at the gate, where someone comes to collect and sell to the next guy up the chain. Or the price we get from the next guy up the chain, if you can transport yourself. Those sites you give are from rubber markets, and may be where the next guy up the chain sells at a guess.

[customcurb]

Thanks Mosha, would seem well worth figuring how to climb that chain, in a quiet unassuming way of course.

[fezzy]

We sold our sheets last month at our nearest rubber co-op dealer and we got 105 Bt a kilo. We rang last week and the price was around 95 Bt and rang a couple of days again and it's hovering around 100 Bt so hopefully going back up

Edited November 7, 2011 by fezzy

[Mosha]

My significant other made enquiries 1 hour ago. Sheets 82 Baht/kg

[jamescollister]

My significant other made enquiries 1 hour ago. Sheets 82 Baht/kg

Don't see any end to this, between the rain and the rubber prices think this season is a right off. Maybe next year things will have settled in the world economy, but maybe not. Haven't decided what we will do yet, if we make enough to cover us for the dormant period will sit it out, if not will have to look for a job. Worse still is trying to make the in laws understand [they live with us ] that the good times have gone for now and time to prepare for some cut backs Not the rural Thai way, live in the moment. Better a big car than food next year, think they maybe back on sticky rice and bugs. Jim

[Mosha]

Down again, 75 Baht/kg and that was for good quality. Knock off another 2 if it's not. Luckily I have a company pension from the UK, not sure I fancy a British winter Jim. Agree with you about making the family comprehend the financial reality, might as well talk to a wall.

[GregBow]

Down again, 75 Baht/kg and that was for good quality. Knock off another 2 if it's not. Luckily I have a company pension from the UK, not sure I fancy a British winter Jim. Agree with you about making the family comprehend the financial reality, might as well talk to a wall.

We got 46 Bht a Kilo to the local dealer in Baan Non Phai Sain yesterday for 500Kg down almost 20 Baht on our last sale 15 days ago. Are they taking the mickey and should we look at stocking it or is this normal. We have just 1200 from 5500 being tapped for coming up to a year now. I am still working Overseas and wife and little one have gone back to keep an eye on production and sales and get the little feller into school as I do not see much use in an Aussie / Thai child leaning Swiss Deutch.

Will be back at Xmas and love to catch up with some of you

[jamescollister]

Down again, 75 Baht/kg and that was for good quality. Knock off another 2 if it's not. Luckily I have a company pension from the UK, not sure I fancy a British winter Jim. Agree with you about making the family comprehend the financial reality, might as well talk to a wall.

We got 46 Bht a Kilo to the local dealer in Baan Non Phai Sain yesterday for 500Kg down almost 20 Baht on our last sale 15 days ago. Are they taking the mickey and should we look at stocking it or is this normal. We have just 1200 from 5500 being tapped for coming up to a year now. I am still working Overseas and wife and little one have gone back to keep an eye on production and sales and get the little feller into school as I do not see much use in an Aussie / Thai child leaning Swiss Deutch.

Will be back at Xmas and love to catch up with some of you

Afraid they are not taking you for a ride, every time the buyers buy the price goes down, they lose money. Round here they have stopped buying cup rubber altogether. Next week I think the price may collapse There is talk on the net of major investing companies pulling out of some markets and going for cash, run on banks. If our great western leaders can not get things together, don't see much hope for rubber, or commodities in general. Jim

[kolohe]

Heard today that the local buyer is down to 39 for a cup.

[jamescollister]

Heard today that the local buyer is down to 39 for a cup.

I am/was a buyer and we stopped months ago No one wants to sell cheap and you know when you sell you will lose, time to stop. If I had the money now I would be going back in and stock piling for next year, but that is a cash thing. The rich get richer and the poor stay the same, money makes money. The big players in any thing can sit out the bad times and cash in in the good times. The rest of us just have to eat. Jim

[customcurb]

well ummm.... didn't I pick a fine time to move there to farm rubber :- /

I like to follow the financial forums and blogs online in the hopes that I might learn a tiny bit on what's going to happen financially and economically in the US primarily and around the world. My takeaway opinion is that the US is <deleted>, most of the rest of the world is too, and even china is also (albeit better able to hide the truth being a loose communist state). When major economies crash there will be less of a need for most all "things" except maybe for food (and even Doritos and beer will change from being a staple to a luxury). I figure that some "things" are made with rubber eh so... I will also be learning to grow food and perhaps chickens.

Just hope that rubber prices hold up and there are no major crashes.

glenn

t-20 days

[jamescollister]

well ummm.... didn't I pick a fine time to move there to farm rubber :- /

I like to follow the financial forums and blogs online in the hopes that I might learn a tiny bit on what's going to happen financially and economically in the US primarily and around the world. My takeaway opinion is that the US is <deleted>, most of the rest of the world is too, and even china is also (albeit better able to hide the truth being a loose communist state). When major economies crash there will be less of a need for most all "things" except maybe for food (and even Doritos and beer will change from being a staple to a luxury). I figure that some "things" are made with rubber eh so... I will also be learning to grow food and perhaps chickens.

Just hope that rubber prices hold up and there are no major crashes.

glenn Glenn, like I said GFC time. When people leave their cars in the scrap yards there will be no need for rubber, but until then it's just the futures traders that are making things hard. Oil was up then down, have we found a lot of new oil, no, have people stopped using oil, no, We are slaves of a system, which I don't understand. Jim

t-20 days

[Mark1971]

Hi,

I have been reading the Farming Forum for a couple of years, I haven't posted before now as I am still working as an Engineer in the UK & have no practical experience of farming.

My wife has purchased 200 Rai in Chiang Rai & we were planning to put in Rubber Trees next year, so I have been researching the subject online.

(Hopefully they trees will help to supplement my retirement to Thailand in 8 years).

The massive fluctuations in the price of Natural Rubber in Thailand over the last 3 years has made me question the wisdom of the investment.

With the low price of Natural Rubber it is very difficult to make a reasonable return, unless you are both the owner & the tapper.

The normal system seems to be that the Tapper gets 50% of the latex sales price & the plantation owner gets 50% minus fertilizer and other maintenance costs.

I think the key to making a return as a Rubber Plantation owner with a low price for Natural Rubber, may be in reducing the labour cost per Kg of latex sold.

There are low frequency tapping systems, using ethephon stimulation which are used in countries with higher labour costs.

(Tree is tapped every 6 days, ethephon is applied 10 times per year).

This should allow the Plantation owner to keep a higher % of the latex sales price, while still providing a fair wage to the tapper.

Obviously the total number of tappers required will be significantly lower.

The link below is an academic study which claims that labour cost can be reduced by 67%, with only a small drop in latex produced.

http://www.sjp.ac.lk/journal/jtfe/sympo2010/pp%2062-69.pdf

As I said at the start I have no practical experience with Rubber Trees, so please be gentle if I have got my facts wrong.

[barrybike]

Hi,

I have been reading the Farming Forum for a couple of years, I haven't posted before now as I am still working as an Engineer in the UK & have no practical experience of farming.

My wife has purchased 200 Rai in Chiang Rai & we were planning to put in Rubber Trees next year, so I have been researching the subject online.

(Hopefully they trees will help to supplement my retirement to Thailand in 8 years).

The massive fluctuations in the price of Natural Rubber in Thailand over the last 3 years has made me question the wisdom of the investment.

With the low price of Natural Rubber it is very difficult to make a reasonable return, unless you are both the owner & the tapper.

The normal system seems to be that the Tapper gets 50% of the latex sales price & the plantation owner gets 50% minus fertilizer and other maintenance costs.

I think the key to making a return as a Rubber Plantation owner with a low price for Natural Rubber, may be in reducing the labour cost per Kg of latex sold.

There are low frequency tapping systems, using ethephon stimulation which are used in countries with higher labour costs.

(Tree is tapped every 6 days, ethephon is applied 10 times per year).

This should allow the Plantation owner to keep a higher % of the latex sales price, while still providing a fair wage to the tapper.

Obviously the total number of tappers required will be significantly lower.

The link below is an academic study which claims that labour cost can be reduced by 67%, with only a small drop in latex produced.

http://www.sjp.ac.lk.../pp%2062-69.pdf

As I said at the start I have no practical experience with Rubber Trees, so please be gentle if I have got my facts wrong.

hi mark your investment will be fine ..it will be way better than paying into a pension fund in the uk and end up getting 50%less than u thought u would get when it matures...rubber will always be in demand (there is still no other substance invented to replace rubber tyres on a vehicle yet lol )..the industry is just going through a rough time now with the world economy ..recession and the flooding there in thailand etc ..ive a plantation the same size as you are talking about planting ...over 4 years old now ....the only advice i would give u when u are starting is to grow good strong plants ..dont plant little cuttings(whips) ..spend the little extra for strong healthy plants to start with and u will have far less replaceing to do as time goes by ..forget about the owner doing the tapping on that amount of land ...ur not going to do that i presume...i reckon i will need 20+ full time staff when my rubber is ready for tapping in 2 more years or so ..,,,remember that amount of rubber trees cost a fair few pound to keep going over the years before u will make money ...fertilizing 2 or 3 times a year when they are young ...spraying weed control ...fireprotection with a tractor etc ..this costs a fair bit ..but hopefully all will pay off when the time comes ...cheers and the best of luck to you ...barry

[Mosha]

Hi Mark, what I do is treat the rubber income as supplementing my company pension. So if you can live off your pension, everything else is a bonus. We only have a relatively small plot, and we don't have an expensive lifestyle. We are (so far) comfortable, unless the pound really tanks.

[jamescollister]

Hi,

I have been reading the Farming Forum for a couple of years, I haven't posted before now as I am still working as an Engineer in the UK & have no practical experience of farming.

My wife has purchased 200 Rai in Chiang Rai & we were planning to put in Rubber Trees next year, so I have been researching the subject online.

(Hopefully they trees will help to supplement my retirement to Thailand in 8 years).

The massive fluctuations in the price of Natural Rubber in Thailand over the last 3 years has made me question the wisdom of the investment.

With the low price of Natural Rubber it is very difficult to make a reasonable return, unless you are both the owner & the tapper.

The normal system seems to be that the Tapper gets 50% of the latex sales price & the plantation owner gets 50% minus fertilizer and other maintenance costs.

I think the key to making a return as a Rubber Plantation owner with a low price for Natural Rubber, may be in reducing the labour cost per Kg of latex sold.

There are low frequency tapping systems, using ethephon stimulation which are used in countries with higher labour costs.

(Tree is tapped every 6 days, ethephon is applied 10 times per year).

This should allow the Plantation owner to keep a higher % of the latex sales price, while still providing a fair wage to the tapper.

Obviously the total number of tappers required will be significantly lower.

The link below is an academic study which claims that labour cost can be reduced by 67%, with only a small drop in latex produced.

http://www.sjp.ac.lk/journal/jtfe/sympo2010/pp%2062-69.pdf

As I said at the start I have no practical experience with Rubber Trees, so please be gentle if I have got my facts wrong.

Think I will be a bit of the devils advocate here. Yes rubber is a good long term investment if done right. Don't know your in laws, wife etc, but if the family is volunteering to help, be careful. They see this as an opportunity to acquire land, tractors and other toys. If all goes well you will never return and they get to keep everything. Next, if you are not there to make sure the work is done, it won't, fertilizer money will not be spent on fertilizer etc. tractors bought will be sold and rented back when you show up. Be very careful on the land titles, get them checked by a lawyer. There are lots of differing titles, some allow one thing others not. You may find you are planting trees on the brothers land and when tapping time comes he will claim it. You are a farang and as such have no rights. Your wife's loyalty is to her family first then you unless you have children together.

Doing anything in a land as alien as Thailand is hard and you will be putting in a lot of money once it's here you will never get it back. Farangs have been run out at gun point, shot, stabbed and killed in family disputes. Think hard before you commit. Jim

[Mark1971]

Thanks for all the replies & sound advice.

As no one knows me, here are my personal details.

Married to Thai lady for 10+ years, 2 kids together.

We live in the UK & will continue to do so until the kids leave school in 8.5 years.

My retirement will be funded by my final salary pension plan & rental houses in the UK.

Wife has 3 younger brothers, none of whom live in the village any more.

Thai MIL is left in the village on her own, the wife wanted one of her brothers to look after her mam & run a small business in the village in the future.

Her middle brother & his wife are devout Christians, and are very simple, hardworking / honest people.

This business is to be funded & owned by my wife, her Brother & Sister in law will graft on site, acting as my wife's site foreman when she employs staff in the future.

Obviously my wife is expecting a return on her investment, so she asked me to come up with a few ideas & help her put together her business plan.

She decided on a Rubber plantation & I am putting the final details into her Business plan.

(I must admit that I am responsible for scaling up her ideas, as a 200 Rai Rubber Plantation is not the small business she initially had in mind).

My intention was not to hijack this thread to discuss my personal situation but rather to stimulate some debate about the most economically beneficially way to manage a Rubber Plantation.

I am particuarlly interested in drastically reducing the labour costs assosciated with tapping, while minimizing the drop in latex yield.

I have modified the calculations given in the excellent blog linked below, to evaluate a couple of scenarios & it seems that low frequency tapping / ethephon stimulation should give a better profit for the plantation owner. http://www.bandunglife.info/local-economy/rubber-farming/rubber-tree-economics

Edited November 11, 2011 by Mark1971

[barrybike]

Hi,

I have been reading the Farming Forum for a couple of years, I haven't posted before now as I am still working as an Engineer in the UK & have no practical experience of farming.

My wife has purchased 200 Rai in Chiang Rai & we were planning to put in Rubber Trees next year, so I have been researching the subject online.

(Hopefully they trees will help to supplement my retirement to Thailand in 8 years).

The massive fluctuations in the price of Natural Rubber in Thailand over the last 3 years has made me question the wisdom of the investment.

With the low price of Natural Rubber it is very difficult to make a reasonable return, unless you are both the owner & the tapper.

The normal system seems to be that the Tapper gets 50% of the latex sales price & the plantation owner gets 50% minus fertilizer and other maintenance costs.

I think the key to making a return as a Rubber Plantation owner with a low price for Natural Rubber, may be in reducing the labour cost per Kg of latex sold.

There are low frequency tapping systems, using ethephon stimulation which are used in countries with higher labour costs.

(Tree is tapped every 6 days, ethephon is applied 10 times per year).

This should allow the Plantation owner to keep a higher % of the latex sales price, while still providing a fair wage to the tapper.

Obviously the total number of tappers required will be significantly lower.

The link below is an academic study which claims that labour cost can be reduced by 67%, with only a small drop in latex produced.

http://www.sjp.ac.lk.../pp%2062-69.pdf

As I said at the start I have no practical experience with Rubber Trees, so please be gentle if I have got my facts wrong.

Think I will be a bit of the devils advocate here. Yes rubber is a good long term investment if done right. Don't know your in laws, wife etc, but if the family is volunteering to help, be careful. They see this as an opportunity to acquire land, tractors and other toys. If all goes well you will never return and they get to keep everything. Next, if you are not there to make sure the work is done, it won't, fertilizer money will not be spent on fertilizer etc. tractors bought will be sold and rented back when you show up. Be very careful on the land titles, get them checked by a lawyer. There are lots of differing titles, some allow one thing others not. You may find you are planting trees on the brothers land and when tapping time comes he will claim it. You are a farang and as such have no rights. Your wife's loyalty is to her family first then you unless you have children together.

Doing anything in a land as alien as Thailand is hard and you will be putting in a lot of money once it's here you will never get it back. Farangs have been run out at gun point, shot, stabbed and killed in family disputes. Think hard before you commit. Jim

agrreed with jim had said but everyones case is different ...from my own experience married 5+ years im 38 she is 34 now ...never had to send a penny back to the in laws as my wifes family down in southern thailand all have enough money of their own farming their own rubber ..did not marry a bar girl etc..(not knocking anyone that did by the way)

im sure mark has his head well screwed on by the sounds of it and fair play to him ...not every farang in thailand jumps in at the deep end letting his little head do all the thinking if u get my meaning ..so at the end of the day its up to each individual to make the decisions they are comfortable with i suppose and having trust in the thai woman that u married in the first place ...so best of luck to u mark what ever decision u make because only u know whats best ..anyone here on this forum cant know any better coz each individual here has a different story to tell ...some good some bad ...same the world over .. cheers barry

[kolohe]

Jim was pointing out the uglier side of doing business in Thailand. Unfortunately there are many pitalls unique to doing business/rubber farming in Thailand. While not every Thai wife/family is going to rip off the farang, I believe there is a greater risk and greater potential than in a normal business back home. When it does happen, the losses are often great because the eager farang takes a sizable chunk of money out of his home equity, retirement savings, etc for this investment. It is really sad to see these things happen.

As was said earlier, everyone's situation is different. The specifics of the situation and set up really do not matter. It is all going to come down to trust, loyalty and involvement. No one is better able to evaluate that than the farang himself. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll be able to find instances of story-book stories going down the toilet and the full-of-danger-signs stories turning out ok.

So please do not feel like you have to legitimize your situation. If anything, just keep the examples that Jim and others have raised in the back of your mind. Just be aware that there is an opportunity to take you for a ride at just about every turn. Even if your wife and family are 100% trustworthy and honest, there are plenty of chances for the cousin, the wife's brother-in-law, the tappers, etc.. to rip you off.

Perhaps there should be a list of tricks that everyone should be aware of! haha.. Here's one to add to Jim's list. Your truck full of this week's rubber goes off to the factory to sell while you sit at home waiting for the workers to return with the sales receipt. However, during the off-loading and weigh-in, a crafty worker separates part of the load out claiming it has to be weighed separately for another tapper/family/etc. This is often done for legitimate reasons but this time it gives the crafty worker two receipts, one for you, one for him. Now the crafty worker returns to the farm, smiling as he hands you one of the receipts while keeping the other one in his pocket.

I wish you good luck in your endeavours. If done right it can be a rewarding and satisfying experience. I hope you come back to share your stories and experiences with us.