Atm Receipts

[GrahamF]

I have done some checking with my bank, USAA, here in the States and they tell me that they will reimburse me up to $15/month in atm fees incurred while I am in Thailand. What they did not tell me, but fortunately a friend did, is that they require a copy of any atm fees incurred internationally and that the fee must be shown separately on the atm receipt from the amount withdrawn. My friend says that the receipts from Krung Thai Bank do show the atm charge/fee separately but he does not know of any other banks that do this. Are there other banks atm's that give a receipt with the fee shown separately from the actual withdraw?

thanks in advance!

[noise]

BKK Bank and Siam Commercial Bank do

[OZEMADE]

Your bank statement should show what fee has been debited to your account either on line or paper statement.

[j0hnga1t]

GrahamF,

I bank with First Republic Bank and they have no limit. I once submitted ATM slips (All the ATMs I went to in Bangkok charged a fee and listed it on the receipt) with about 50 USD in fees....no problem. Got reimbursed

[californiabeachboy]

A comfort to hear someone else is having this problem (sorry about that!).

I bank with Ally Bank here in the US, and they said they would reimburse me for all ATM fees, including fess from overseas. So on my last trip to Thailand, I used the ATM from Kasikorn Bank, which charged me 150 baht.

When I came back to the US and received my statement, there was no reimbursement. So I called Ally, and they said that the entry on their books must specifically say that it was an ATM fee - if it doesn't say that, no reimbursement. Apparently, the K-Bank entry doesn't specifically say it is an ATM fee (although I don't know - I don't see that part of the international transfer). I complained, and they gave me a credit.

My theory is that it is a "gotcha" from the banks. They have figured out a way to market something, that doesn't really exist in the real world.

[soundman]

Moved to banking forum.

[Pib]

I'm have a USAA account also and have done one withdrawal using their debit card. Did this one time test just to check the card and check the reimbursement process; don't plan to do anymore since the USAA Debit card has a 1% foreign transaction fee.

The withdrawal was at a Bangkok Bank ATM and the receipt showed the separate 150 baht fee. However, when the ATM withdrawal hit my USAA account the basic amount withdrawn and the 150 baht ATM fee were lumped together. So, no reimbursement could be done since the fee was not broken out separately. In doing some googling I saw that folks in Europe were having the same problem. Talking to USAA via phone and via email they basically said some overseas ATMs don't transmit the basic withdrawal and fee separately where U.S. ATMs are required to do so. Whether this is really true or it's just the way USAA has its banking network setup to receive the transaction data, I don't know. I sent a secure email to USAA with a copy of the receipt through online banking email that showed the fee and was reimbursed at the end of the month.

If you use an AEON ATM you won't be charge the 150 baht foreign card fee since AEON is not part of the Thai bank network. But the USAA debit card 1% foreign transaction fee will still be charged.

[jfchandler]

That's a pretty low-life move on USAA's part, PIB....

I only have ATM fee reimbursement experience with two banks, Schwab and E*Trade... And in both cases, they never had any problem distinguishing/recognizing the ATM fees that I (rarely) incurred from Thai banks...

So I'm more than a bit doubtful of the explanation about them not getting the right coding from the Thai banks to recognize the ATM fees.

[Pib]

That's a pretty low-life move on USAA's part, PIB....

I only have ATM fee reimbursement experience with two banks, Schwab and E*Trade... And in both cases, they never had any problem distinguishing/recognizing the ATM fees that I (rarely) incurred from Thai banks...

So I'm more than a bit doubtful of the explanation about them not getting the right coding from the Thai banks to recognize the ATM fees.

Yea, it's some of the devil in the details a person finds out after the fact. I think the problem is more on USAA's end. See below which is a partial quote of a USAA email to me regarding reimbursement of the fee....and email that is in sync with my phone call to them. But as mentioned earlier, and regardless of what the last sentence in below quote says, when I emailed a request for reimbursement with a scanned copy of the Bangkok Bank ATM receipt showing the separate fee, USAA did reimburse me. The USAA debit card now resides in my safe since it charges a 1% foreign transaction fee (which I knew before opening the account) and I will probably only use it on my visits back to the States where there will be no foreign transaction fee or ATM fee reimbursement issue. Now I just use my Schwab Visa debit card and I will also be using my State Farm Visa debit card once it arrives (it's suppposedly in the mail); both of these do not charge any foreign transaction fee and also reimburse for Thailand ATM withdrawals when required based on my experience and other ThaiVisa posts.

Partial Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the refund of ATM surcharges. ATM surcharges assessed on foreign ATMs will be refunded if the ATM operating bank has itemized the ATM surcharge on the collection, which is what domestic banks do. Many foreign ATMs do not itemize this fee; therefore, we do not know the amount and the refund is not applied to the account. We do not offer the ability for our membership to manually give us the amounts for refund.

End Quote

[GrahamF]

Thanks for all the great info everyone. I have just gotten off the phone with Schwab and am considering opening a checking account with them. As far as I can tell there are no hidden fees, only ones that I would incur by choice, such as cashiers checks, transferring money to a foreign bank, etc. No 1% transaction fee and full automatic reimbursement of atm fees sounds pretty good. I would have to open a brokerage account to get the checking but I could leave that at a zero balance. Sounds too good to be true, am I missing something here??

[jfchandler]

Nope, rhat's pretty much the deal.

The only small negative is their balky, out of date requirement of mailing in a paper form whenever you want to add an eexternal bank acct link to your checking.

But apart from siimply maiing in thee form when necessary, you can also deal with that byy linking instead to your Scwab brokerage account, where the process is entirely online in the normal way.

And then simply move funds between Schwab brokerage and Schwab checking via their onnline banking - which seems to be immediate sometimes and next day at other times, perhaps depennding on the time of day it's begun.

[GrahamF]

Nope, rhat's pretty much the deal.

The only small negative is their balky, out of date requirement of mailing in a paper form whenever you want to add an eexternal bank acct link to your checking.

But apart from siimply maiing in thee form when necessary, you can also deal with that byy linking instead to your Scwab brokerage account, where the process is entirely online in the normal way.

And then simply move funds between Schwab brokerage and Schwab checking via their onnline banking - which seems to be immediate sometimes and next day at other times, perhaps depennding on the time of day it's begun.

Thanks! So you mean, Schwab checking>>>>>>>>>>>Schwab brokerage>>>>>>>>>>>non-Schwab account (e.g. USAA) and then back the other way if need be, thereby avoiding mailing in the forms. Strange that they can move the $$ online with the brokerage acct. but need docs for the checking, not a big deal though.

[jfchandler]

Just to be clear here...I'm talking about the process of setting up links within Schwab's online banking to your various external bank accounts... not the actual sending of funds.

Within Schwab online, if you want to (for the first time) link your Schwab checking account to an external account, that requires mailing in a paper form for each new linked account. Within Schwab online, if you want to link your Schwab brokerage account to any external bank account, that can be done entirely online via the usual trial deposits method.

Once any of those links are set up, you can either pull money in or push money out using Schwab online banking to any externally linked accounts just by initiating an online ACH transfer from within Schwab online banking. It's the same exact process online whether it's a transfer to/from your brokerage account, or to/from your Schwab checking account, once the initial links are established.

It's just the initial process for setting up the links within Schwab online banking that is different if the links are for the checking account (paper form) vs. brokerage account (online trial deposits).

When you go to do an actual online transfer, the Schwab menu page will first ask which account you want to do something FROM, checking or brokerage. And then, once you select which account, the pull down menu for the TO account will change to show the linked accounts for that particular Schwab account, whichever one you have chosen.

And, as an aside, you can also create links TO your Schwab accounts in your other external banks' online banking setups, provided they allow for linking and ACH transfers.... So you could, for example, set up a link to Schwab in an E*Trade account and then use the E*Trade online banking system to pull or push funds to/from the Schwab account.

[Langsuan Man]

Thanks! So you mean, Schwab checking>>>>>>>>>>>Schwab brokerage>>>>>>>>>>>non-Schwab account (e.g. USAA) and then back the other way if need be, thereby avoiding mailing in the forms. Strange that they can move the $$ online with the brokerage acct. but need docs for the checking, not a big deal though.

That is because brokerage rules are different from bank rules at the Federal level

[Pib]

Yea, for initial setup of the funds transfer links for Schwab Checking and Savings accounts, Schwab is still living in the "complete and mail-in" the form age. But after the links are setup you can do transfers online/phone. But for the Schwab Brokerage account in setup of funds transfer links they just use the trial deposits method...everything done online...no forms needed.

[lopburi3]

I believe others are had problems with bank ATM fee reimbursement due to there banks not knowing it was a fee so suspect as least some network transmissions do not indicate it.

As for the 1% fee find that acceptable (Credit Cards often have 3% which is a real hit) for occasional use as if you figure the cost to send money here and payment in cash it becomes less than indicated amount and gets the current exchange rate.

[jfchandler]

You're too easy going with the dollars, Lopburi.... I don't want to settle for that...

I want 0 foreign currency fee ATM cards that pay the full network rate and reimburse Thai ATM fees when necessary, and then 0 foreign currency fee credit cards with cash back, preferably 2%.

Relatively easy to arrange... Just have to do business with the right banks to accomplish it.

I can understand that some folks like USAA for its various benefits and are willing to put up with their 1% card network fee.... But when they start dissembling on foreign ATM fee reimbursements, I'd say it's time for a re-think.

[lopburi3]

And I am saying others have reported the same problem with the electronic charge not showing fee so suspect it may not be just a USAA fault.

Yes there are times when paying 1% is acceptable to me. I can recall when plastic required a 3% surcharge (in addition to any exchange/card fee) by local seller just to be accepted; and people were paying it (I did find that excessive). I am happy enough not to have a phone bill with 10 additional tax requirements listed (school tax/country tax/road cleaning tax/happy idiot tax ad infinitum - as was the case in South Florida) and other such nonsense; to make paying 1% for getting away from all those .0023% tax items well worth it.

[jfchandler]

There are a couple things that are concerning about USAA's activity in this area...

1. Lots of folks here have had lots of experience with E*Trade and Schwab ATM fee reimbursements.. And I don't recall any or many complaints from their customers about those banks not being able to correctly identify foreign ATM fee charges... So why is USAA having trouble?

2. Based on the post above that included the email from USAA customer service, they seemed to be taking the position that if the fee didn't show up in their electronic system, they weren't interested or receptive to their customers sending in a copy of the actual ATM receipt to document that a fee had been charged...and should be reimbursed.

Many foreign ATMs do not itemize this fee; therefore, we do not know the amount and the refund is not applied to the account. We do not offer the ability for our membership to manually give us the amounts for refund.

Schwab is exactly the opposite in that regard. They specifically advise their customers....if you're ever not reimbursed for an ATM fee, just call them and they'll set it right. And indeed they have a record of having done just that.. and usually without requiring the customer to mail in ATM receipts.

USAA has a reputation for good customer service. The response above isn't in keeping with that kind of service.

Edited May 20, 2011 by jfchandler

[lopburi3]

OP post says they will refund with copy of ATM receipt and another post confirms this in this thread - but only up to $15 per month. Believe that email meaning was they had no manual method to do on the basis of electronic system (to flag a 150 baht charge by computer) rather than they could not honor a manual sending of proof with ATM copy.

[lopburi3]

You changed your post as I made my last reply it seems.

So yes can agree a phone call would be easier than sending a copy of ATM receipt for some (for some of use phones are not friendly and email would be preferred; due time zones or otherwise).

[jfchandler]

Lopburi, I understood the CSR response a different way than what you suggest...

The actual wording was:

We do not offer the ability for our membership to manually give us the amounts for refund.

Notwithstanding what they did for Pib, it seems they're saying as a policy matter that they're not set up for their members to send in requests for ATM reimbursements where their system hasn't already recognized it.

[lopburi3]

As further information on USAA debit card use.

Just received this months statement. I paid $15.57 in foreign transactions fees (1% of purchase) and received $7.87 Debit Card Rebate (rewards) so total cost of card use was less than .5% with no action on my part (and actually a surprise to me as rewards program agreement does not mention automatic credit - perhaps treated different with foreign address?).

[jfchandler]

Here's the info from the members' section of the USAA web site re their debit card reward program (along with their ATM fees/refunds policy):

USAA Cash Rewards Debit/ATM Card

If you're looking for cash back when you spend, this card is for you:

• Earn up to ½% cash back on every dollar spent on purchases.¹
• There's no limit to the cash back rebate you can earn each month.
• Get free ATM fee refunds.²

¹ Cash Rewards – Earn one-half percent rebate on all qualified credit purchases made with the USAA Cash Rewards Debit Card. Just select CREDIT as your payment option at checkout.

2 USAA does not charge a fee for the first 10 ATM withdrawals and refunds up to $15 in other banks' ATM fees each month.

So that would work out to a maximum of three USAA refunds per month of the Thai bank ATM charges, if someone was withdrawing funds from Thai banks (as opposed to AEON or Citi at Asoke)... Assuming USAA actually recognizes the Thai bank fee, which seems to be a problem sometimes...

But I'd also note... the USAA debit rewards program only applies to debit card purchases, not ATM withdrawals using their card. So they're going to hit you for the fulll 1% card network fee on cash withdrawals, and that's not going to be offset by any rewards.

Edited May 22, 2011 by jfchandler

[lopburi3]

In my case point of sale is the card usage so instead of 1% only paying 1/2% makes it even less of a factor and makes me think twice about always paying in cash, and just about a wash (the same) when considering $5,000 transfers at $10 fee plus .0025% exchange (about .0045% total). So my total cost is about .0005% more to use plastic.

So total out of pocket 50 satang per thousand baht purchase.

Or am I wrong - too old to be sure when doing math these days.

To me the cost of money transfer is a whole lot less than is lost in not checking retail prices closely (which I admit do not do that often).

[jfchandler]

...and just about a wash (the same) when considering $5,000 transfers at $10 fee plus .0025% exchange (about .0045% total). So my total cost is about .0005% more to use plastic.

So total out of pocket 50 satang per thousand baht purchase.

Or am I wrong - too old to be sure when doing math these days.

To me the cost of money transfer is a whole lot less than is lost in not checking retail prices closely (which I admit do not do that often).

Lopburi, I'm not sure I follow your math or your reasoning here...

Re the money transfers, are you talking about ACH's from the U.S. via BKK Bank New York? If so, their commission rate on the Thai end is 0.25%, minimum 200 baht and maximum 500 baht... Not 0.0025%

But more broadly, for someone living here, there are a lot of times and places where you can't use a debit card, usually because the merchant/vendor doesn't take them, or for small amount purchases. So pulling cash (either from an ATM or money transfer) is always going to be a necessity.

But to recap:

The Schwab debit card with unlimited ATM fee reimbursements and no card network or foreign currency fees is going to be a better deal -- better than USAA and better than BKK Bank New York.

If someone is doing a lot of ATM withdrawals, then the USAA card isn't going to be particularly good, given its limit of $15 per month on ATM reimbursements, its charging of a 1% fee on ATM withdrawals, and their seeming problems with always recognizing foreign ATM fees.

If someone, on the other hand, is mostly using the USAA card for POS, then it becomes relatively a better offer, given the net 0.5% fee (1% card network fee offset by 0.5% rewards rebate).

But in comparison, we now have other members saying that Fidelity's MyCash account isn't charging the 1% card network fee, even though their web site says they do.... and reimbursing foreign ATM fees.

And, we have the recent surfacing of State Farm Bank as, I believe, a no foreign currency fee and foreign ATM fee reimbursing account.

It's good that there are various options out there... But strictly on banking terms, USAA is going to work harder to get to the top of the list.

[lopburi3]

My .0025 is the multiplication amount charged on a $5,000 transfer (actually $4,990) after conversion to baht so the same as 1/4 percent. At that level you are within the 2-500 baht range.

My point is the fee of 1% is lowered to .5% by rebate and you save the .45% of import/exchange using ACH so total difference is virtually nothing.

Sure you will want cash for pocket spending but for card spending it is not something to avoid because of fees when at this level and can greatly decrease your need for ATM use or transfer of funds.

[jfchandler]

I guess my bottom line is... why use a USAA card that charges 1% on ATM withdrawals and 0.5% on debit POSs when you can use other bank's debit cards that charge 0% and 0%...

[Pib]

I guess my bottom line is... why use a USAA card that charges 1% on ATM withdrawals and 0.5% on debit POSs when you can use other bank's debit cards that charge 0% and 0%...

Yea, that's simple math. Also, for me, it has pretty much made ACH transfers and the associated cost a thing of the past as I just withdraw X-amount from the AEON ATM in Lotus using my Scbwab or State Farm debit card which have a 0% foreign transaction fee, walk about 20 steps to the Bangkok Bank outlet in Lotus, and deposit the money in a cash deposit machine or with a teller. Of course this also means no waiting several business days to get the cash like through an ACH transfer. I can get up to 1,000USD/30,000Baht per day with each card, for a total of 60,000 Baht per day if needed. This keeps my Bangkok Bank account funded for paying bills via Bangkok Bank internet banking and occasional use of the Bangkok Bank debit card. I could use any Thai bank ATM and still get reimbursed for the 150 baht fee, but I choose to use the AEON ATM to prevent any reimbursement requirement and giving a Thai bank a nice little 150 baht fee. But actually, I'm pulling less cash from the States nowdays via debit card or ACH, because of my credit card use.

With the Capital One No Hassle Cash Rewards Mastercard providing 2%/1% cash back the math always works in your favor. I haven't paid cash in Lotus, Big C, Carrefour, Foodland, gas stations, etc., for months because I get a 2% cash reward when using the credit card at these locations. When I don't earn the 2%, I get 1% cash back like for a purchase at a hosptial/clinic, HomePro, restaurant, etc. The majority of my monthly spending is placed on this card and I pay it in full monthly. I have the Cap One cash back setup to automatically credit my account when I reach $25 in cash back which don't take long. I like to think of it as I'm only paying a 5% VAT while everybody else is paying 7%. And for anyone who wants to get down into the weeds on the exchange rate provide by the Mastercard credit card, it's about 0.25% less than the TT Buying rate you get in a ACH/SWIFT transfer...so, I guess you could say I'm only earning a 1.75%/0.75% cash back when considering the exchange rate....that still makes me smile.

I'm feel fortunate in being able to open Schwab, State Farm, and Cap One accounts. USAA is a good bank, and I have an account with them, but other banks have better debit and credit cards in terms of foreign transaction fee, cash back, etc.

[jfchandler]

I'm feel fortunate in being able to open Schwab, State Farm, and Cap One accounts. USAA is a good bank, and I have an account with them, but other banks have better debit and credit cards in terms of foreign transaction fee, cash back, etc.

Agree 100% Pib... Spot on... Yet these things operate on a sliding scale...

Is USAA better than Schwab and State Farm for ATM card use abroad... certainly not.

Is USAA better than most of the big U.S. banks that charge 3% foreign currency fees, most certainly so.

Is using a USAA debit card for purchases and ATM withdrawals abroad better than doing BKK Bank ACH transfers into a Thai account....that's one I haven't calculated...

If someone was only using the USAA ATM card for purchases, considering the 0.5% net fee, it probably would be better.

But if someone was doing a lot of ATM withdrawals and paying USAA's 1% fee, then it would depend... also on how often and how large the BKK Bank transfers would be by comparison (fewer transfers and larger amounts yielding a lower net fee expense).