Which International School Selection In Cm ?

[scotbeve]

Mapguy,

Once again, a thorough point of view..... I'm sure that many of us (old hands and new) appreciated your comment.

A quick overview of my family and experience of intl schools in CM: I've lived in Thailand for 30 yrs., married for 23 yrs., 2 children - daughter is in uni and son still in NIS. Daughter attended APIS (boarding) for 1 yr. and then NIS for 3 years, then a Junior College in Sydney. My son has been in NIS since Gr. 3 and attends various summer courses abroad for a week or 3 annually. NIS has, in the past, done a pretty good job scholastically and my kids are actually interested in the learning process. My wife and myself do all that is possible to encourage and nurture this interest.

I has come to my attention - as of yesterday - that NIS is once again in a crisis situation. There was a parents committee meeting a few days ago that, unfortunately, I did not know about and therefore did not attend. My son informed me that there are no less than 6 high school (secondary) teachers who will not be returning for the 2011-12 year. And the student population will decrease up to (and including) 30%. IMHO, this is a crisis. This may be a lateral or parallel topic from the OP. Or moderators? Please advise.

From conversations with teachers at intl schools in CM there seems to be 4 main elements to staff turnover here:

1. The 2 year contract cycle tends to produce a quiet year/busy year pattern for teachers moving

2. The level of pay in CM intl schools is on average about half that of Bangkok and a third that of schools in the Gulf. Thus younger teachers and non teaching couples tend to move on.

3. Single female teachers tend not to stay long term.

4. IF a school is in genuine disarray and teachers are being messed about that can cause an exodus. Again from second hand info it seems that the drama between principal and family has been resolved with a new principal appointed and the school back on an even keel.

Also how many teachers does NIS have? Six may only be a small proportion and nothing out of the normal/part of normal cycle etc.

Re the 30% student departures again I understand NIS has a large proportion of Korean students and they tend to be more mobile and get repatriated back home at fairly short notice. Most of the Intl Schools have seen fairly large drop offs in Korean and Japanese students in the last couple of years.

So a little bit of second hand knowledge and guesswork. If you are concerned speak to someone who went to the meeting. Surely they publish minutes and distribute them to parents?

Map,

Yes, I believe most teachers have a 2 yr. contract at NIS. However, there has never been to the best of my knowledge, more than 3 or 4 teachers leaving / not re-signing contracts in a new school year. As far as the normal repatriation of families with students in CM Intl. schools, this number is also seems higher (30%) than "normal". I should have all or most of the info within a weeks time and will pass on any / all to TV readers.

[chaoyang]

I do know that the popular principal of NIS for more than a decade, Mr. John, was demoted to "Head of Academic Personell" (the spelling used on their website) this year and will be leaving the school after graduation ceremonies in June and return to the States.

For a long time, NIS had a core of long-term teachers who have deep roots in Chiang Mai. The school was sold -- due to a financial crisis brought about by the actions of its previous owner -- in 2001 to a wealthy BKK oil executive, who installed his then 27-year-old daughter as the manager and built a beautiful new campus.

Things went well at first, but then the often absent daughter began to make controversial decisions without consultation with the administrative staff, etc, etc. Typical story of hi-so Thai meets (then refuses to meet) frank-speaking Westerners ... not a happy recipe.

Some of the long-term teachers began to leave in about 2006, and it is my understanding the situation came to a climax last fall when Mr. John was demoted. He and the assistant principal resigned, possibly along with a number of teachers.

For better or worse, it is truly the end of an era as Mr. John leaves.

[scotbeve]

I do know that the popular principal of NIS for more than a decade, Mr. John, was demoted to "Head of Academic Personell" (the spelling used on their website) this year and will be leaving the school after graduation ceremonies in June and return to the States.

For a long time, NIS had a core of long-term teachers who have deep roots in Chiang Mai. The school was sold -- due to a financial crisis brought about by the actions of its previous owner -- in 2001 to a wealthy BKK oil executive, who installed his then 27-year-old daughter as the manager and built a beautiful new campus.

Things went well at first, but then the often absent daughter began to make controversial decisions without consultation with the administrative staff, etc, etc. Typical story of hi-so Thai meets (then refuses to meet) frank-speaking Westerners ... not a happy recipe.

Some of the long-term teachers began to leave in about 2006, and it is my understanding the situation came to a climax last fall when Mr. John was demoted. He and the assistant principal resigned, possibly along with a number of teachers.

For better or worse, it is truly the end of an era as Mr. John leaves.

Also, Mr. Andrew ("asst. principal") has given his notice. Mr. John 16yrs. and Mr. Andrew 13 yrs. - several other core teachers are leaving. I was able to attend a few parent /"management" meetings and from my biz background noted it was just that... business... Soooooo, us "shareholders" gave a few ultimatums which obviously, have not been powerful enough. I will strongly consider my son returning or not to NIS. It's truly a shame as the school prepared my daughter very well for college / uni.

[Diablo Bob]

I do know that the popular principal of NIS for more than a decade, Mr. John, was demoted to "Head of Academic Personell" (the spelling used on their website) this year and will be leaving the school after graduation ceremonies in June and return to the States.

For a long time, NIS had a core of long-term teachers who have deep roots in Chiang Mai. The school was sold -- due to a financial crisis brought about by the actions of its previous owner -- in 2001 to a wealthy BKK oil executive, who installed his then 27-year-old daughter as the manager and built a beautiful new campus.

Things went well at first, but then the often absent daughter began to make controversial decisions without consultation with the administrative staff, etc, etc. Typical story of hi-so Thai meets (then refuses to meet) frank-speaking Westerners ... not a happy recipe.

Some of the long-term teachers began to leave in about 2006, and it is my understanding the situation came to a climax last fall when Mr. John was demoted. He and the assistant principal resigned, possibly along with a number of teachers.

For better or worse, it is truly the end of an era as Mr. John leaves.

Also, Mr. Andrew ("asst. principal") has given his notice. Mr. John 16yrs. and Mr. Andrew 13 yrs. - several other core teachers are leaving. I was able to attend a few parent /"management" meetings and from my biz background noted it was just that... business... Soooooo, us "shareholders" gave a few ultimatums which obviously, have not been powerful enough. I will strongly consider my son returning or not to NIS. It's truly a shame as the school prepared my daughter very well for college / uni.

I have a relative associated with NIS, when I read Scotts reply, I shipped it for comment, here is what just returned:

"From High School:

Andrew is going to CMIS...has always wanted to be at CMIS...

2 teachers are leaving because of new baby and turned in resignation in August 2010... return to US

2 teachers are leaving because in Dec. they interviewed in Mexico and got jobs... their decision is based on what went on with John and Andrew and the new principles attitude

1 teacher is leaving because she doesn't like teaching HS computer

From Elementary:

1 teacher is leaving because of family (she lost both parents in the past year and wants to be closer to family) return to Canada

1 teacher is leaving because he did PYP in his student teaching and would like to get certification with it...has to go to PYP school - will go to Phenom Phen

1 teacher is leaving because she wants to eventually teach in Australia and they have more need for ECE teachers and she needs to get some experience in that area... going to teach kindergarten at CMIS

From ECC:

1 is leaving because she wants to get a degree to teach a higher grade...not day care

1 is leaving but only came here for one year to give her Thai/Canadian daughter time to know grandparents and her heritage... Ms. Carrie

And for your information CMIS is in no better shape than we are except they are 'the premier' school. They have two principals...primary and secondary... and the head. The board wants to fire the head but the primary principal (who is great) has one more year and told the board if they fired him this year she would leave and not return. They can't have that because Andrew is the new secondary and losing the only existing primary and replacing the head would be catastrophic. The owners at CMIS are playing the same games as NIS. The church refuses to buy the land for CMIS to build their new school...so their fees went up drastically so they can begin to save money to buy the land and build the new school.

NO...neither CMIS or NIS are on solid ground at the time. Matter of fact...NONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL SCHOOLS IN CHIANGMAI can brag much. Prem has had to lay off teachers... APIS has had a big disertion of staff... I'd say the Germans are probably the best set... sauerkraut!

Well, what's a parent to do?

[scotbeve]

I do know that the popular principal of NIS for more than a decade, Mr. John, was demoted to "Head of Academic Personell" (the spelling used on their website) this year and will be leaving the school after graduation ceremonies in June and return to the States.

For a long time, NIS had a core of long-term teachers who have deep roots in Chiang Mai. The school was sold -- due to a financial crisis brought about by the actions of its previous owner -- in 2001 to a wealthy BKK oil executive, who installed his then 27-year-old daughter as the manager and built a beautiful new campus.

Things went well at first, but then the often absent daughter began to make controversial decisions without consultation with the administrative staff, etc, etc. Typical story of hi-so Thai meets (then refuses to meet) frank-speaking Westerners ... not a happy recipe.

Some of the long-term teachers began to leave in about 2006, and it is my understanding the situation came to a climax last fall when Mr. John was demoted. He and the assistant principal resigned, possibly along with a number of teachers.

For better or worse, it is truly the end of an era as Mr. John leaves.

Also, Mr. Andrew ("asst. principal") has given his notice. Mr. John 16yrs. and Mr. Andrew 13 yrs. - several other core teachers are leaving. I was able to attend a few parent /"management" meetings and from my biz background noted it was just that... business... Soooooo, us "shareholders" gave a few ultimatums which obviously, have not been powerful enough. I will strongly consider my son returning or not to NIS. It's truly a shame as the school prepared my daughter very well for college / uni.

I have a relative associated with NIS, when I read Scotts reply, I shipped it for comment, here is what just returned:

"From High School:

Andrew is going to CMIS...has always wanted to be at CMIS...

2 teachers are leaving because of new baby and turned in resignation in August 2010... return to US

2 teachers are leaving because in Dec. they interviewed in Mexico and got jobs... their decision is based on what went on with John and Andrew and the new principles attitude

1 teacher is leaving because she doesn't like teaching HS computer

From Elementary:

1 teacher is leaving because of family (she lost both parents in the past year and wants to be closer to family) return to Canada

1 teacher is leaving because he did PYP in his student teaching and would like to get certification with it...has to go to PYP school - will go to Phenom Phen

1 teacher is leaving because she wants to eventually teach in Australia and they have more need for ECE teachers and she needs to get some experience in that area... going to teach kindergarten at CMIS

From ECC:

1 is leaving because she wants to get a degree to teach a higher grade...not day care

1 is leaving but only came here for one year to give her Thai/Canadian daughter time to know grandparents and her heritage... Ms. Carrie

And for your information CMIS is in no better shape than we are except they are 'the premier' school. They have two principals...primary and secondary... and the head. The board wants to fire the head but the primary principal (who is great) has one more year and told the board if they fired him this year she would leave and not return. They can't have that because Andrew is the new secondary and losing the only existing primary and replacing the head would be catastrophic. The owners at CMIS are playing the same games as NIS. The church refuses to buy the land for CMIS to build their new school...so their fees went up drastically so they can begin to save money to buy the land and build the new school.

NO...neither CMIS or NIS are on solid ground at the time. Matter of fact...NONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL SCHOOLS IN CHIANGMAI can brag much. Prem has had to lay off teachers... APIS has had a big disertion of staff... I'd say the Germans are probably the best set... sauerkraut!

Well, what's a parent to do?

Thanks for that Diablo... I'm still going into the school office this week. BTW - PTIS has had some rather regular incidents of drug usage - I knew one of the kids who actually became an addict. And to any "management" of NIS reading this, remember, WE ARE THE SHAREHOLDERS (as you've heard me state before) AND WE WANT MORE DEFINITIVE ANSWERS - this is ongoing.

[Thakkar]

I was at the NIS parent-teacher meeting mentioned by Scotbeve and this is what I learned:

• There will be an exceptionally large turnover of teachers and students at the end of this school year.

• Overall, NIS still has the best record of teacher retention. As of the 2010/2011 school year, the average tenure of teachers at NIS was 6.5 years, which is very impressive.

• There will be many new students joining NIS, including Israelis, Lebanese, New Zealanders.

• In spite of the new intake, overall student numbers are expected to remain constant due to the departure of a large number of Koreans. Apparently an influential Korean parent decided to switch to CMIS and many Koreans followed. Diversity of the student population will improve.

• Several Advanced Placement (AP) courses will be introduced next school year for Grades 11 and 12 with more coming the year after.

• A significant investment is being made in computer hardware, software and internet backbone to improve administration, IT services and intra-school as well as teacher/parent and school/parent communications. The system will be partially up and running during the first 2011/2012 term and completely on line by the second term of 2011/2012.

• A new principal has been hired, a Canadian with a pretty impressive (on paper anyway) resumé. I understand he has twenty years teaching experience, teacher evaluation and training experience and is currently a principal at an international school in Bangkok.

My kids are in high school, so I'm more aware of the situation there. While some good teachers are leaving, so are some not-so-good ones. Crucially, many good teachers are staying and some of my favorites continue to express great confidence in the school.

I had a lengthy meeting with the school manager, the daughter of the owner and came away impressed with her enthusiasm, commitment and genuine concern for the students and the school community. I understand that they have the resources to continue to invest in the school's future, though can claim no special knowledge.

In the end, as Mapguy says, the parents and home environment, even the amount of healthy nutrition and sleep our kids get are more important than the school. To some extent, as far as I'm concerned, the remit of teachers and schools is a little like that of doctors: Firstly, Do No Harm. Our kids are in constant danger of having their intelligence and humanity educated out of them. Emerson said "Children are not things to be moulded, but people to be unfolded." I believe that NIS, whether consciously or not, is less in breach of this dictum than many other schools.

Having said that, if my kids were younger and I were arriving in CM today, I'd take a serious look at Panyaden. It looks good on paper, but I have no idea what the reality is. As a matter of interest, I'd love to hear from people who do know more about this fascinating school.

[scotbeve]

I was at the NIS parent-teacher meeting mentioned by Scotbeve and this is what I learned:

• There will be an exceptionally large turnover of teachers and students at the end of this school year.

• Overall, NIS still has the best record of teacher retention. As of the 2010/2011 school year, the average tenure of teachers at NIS was 6.5 years, which is very impressive.

• There will be many new students joining NIS, including Israelis, Lebanese, New Zealanders.

• In spite of the new intake, overall student numbers are expected to remain constant due to the departure of a large number of Koreans. Apparently an influential Korean parent decided to switch to CMIS and many Koreans followed. Diversity of the student population will improve.

• Several Advanced Placement (AP) courses will be introduced next school year for Grades 11 and 12 with more coming the year after.

• A significant investment is being made in computer hardware, software and internet backbone to improve administration, IT services and intra-school as well as teacher/parent and school/parent communications. The system will be partially up and running during the first 2011/2012 term and completely on line by the second term of 2011/2012.

• A new principal has been hired, a Canadian with a pretty impressive (on paper anyway) resumé. I understand he has twenty years teaching experience, teacher evaluation and training experience and is currently a principal at an international school in Bangkok.

My kids are in high school, so I'm more aware of the situation there. While some good teachers are leaving, so are some not-so-good ones. Crucially, many good teachers are staying and some of my favorites continue to express great confidence in the school.

I had a lengthy meeting with the school manager, the daughter of the owner and came away impressed with her enthusiasm, commitment and genuine concern for the students and the school community. I understand that they have the resources to continue to invest in the school's future, though can claim no special knowledge.

In the end, as Mapguy says, the parents and home environment, even the amount of healthy nutrition and sleep our kids get are more important than the school. To some extent, as far as I'm concerned, the remit of teachers and schools is a little like that of doctors: Firstly, Do No Harm. Our kids are in constant danger of having their intelligence and humanity educated out of them. Emerson said "Children are not things to be moulded, but people to be unfolded." I believe that NIS, whether consciously or not, is less in breach of this dictum than many other schools.

Having said that, if my kids were younger and I were arriving in CM today, I'd take a serious look at Panyaden. It looks good on paper, but I have no idea what the reality is. As a matter of interest, I'd love to hear from people who do know more about this fascinating school.

Thakkar,

Thanks for your informative reply. As I've stated earlier, NIS has done a good job preparing my daughter for uni. I've seen many entire classes slide downhill when a teacher leaves... Especially in elementary grades.... The kids genuinely love some of their teachers and are devastated when they leave. As an administrator, I would try to retain this type of family closeness and put a bit more retention incentive in place. There is a high rate of teachers departing - this is definitely a concern. The other concern is the high population of Korean students leaving. Correct me if I'm wrong, but were the Korean students not the bulk of the school population? Are there any Korean representatives that are reading this whom would like to contribute to these comments?

[Diablo Bob]

I was at the NIS parent-teacher meeting mentioned by Scotbeve and this is what I learned:

• There will be an exceptionally large turnover of teachers and students at the end of this school year.

• Overall, NIS still has the best record of teacher retention. As of the 2010/2011 school year, the average tenure of teachers at NIS was 6.5 years, which is very impressive.

• There will be many new students joining NIS, including Israelis, Lebanese, New Zealanders.

• In spite of the new intake, overall student numbers are expected to remain constant due to the departure of a large number of Koreans. Apparently an influential Korean parent decided to switch to CMIS and many Koreans followed. Diversity of the student population will improve.

• Several Advanced Placement (AP) courses will be introduced next school year for Grades 11 and 12 with more coming the year after.

• A significant investment is being made in computer hardware, software and internet backbone to improve administration, IT services and intra-school as well as teacher/parent and school/parent communications. The system will be partially up and running during the first 2011/2012 term and completely on line by the second term of 2011/2012.

• A new principal has been hired, a Canadian with a pretty impressive (on paper anyway) resumé. I understand he has twenty years teaching experience, teacher evaluation and training experience and is currently a principal at an international school in Bangkok.

My kids are in high school, so I'm more aware of the situation there. While some good teachers are leaving, so are some not-so-good ones. Crucially, many good teachers are staying and some of my favorites continue to express great confidence in the school.

I had a lengthy meeting with the school manager, the daughter of the owner and came away impressed with her enthusiasm, commitment and genuine concern for the students and the school community. I understand that they have the resources to continue to invest in the school's future, though can claim no special knowledge.

In the end, as Mapguy says, the parents and home environment, even the amount of healthy nutrition and sleep our kids get are more important than the school. To some extent, as far as I'm concerned, the remit of teachers and schools is a little like that of doctors: Firstly, Do No Harm. Our kids are in constant danger of having their intelligence and humanity educated out of them. Emerson said "Children are not things to be moulded, but people to be unfolded." I believe that NIS, whether consciously or not, is less in breach of this dictum than many other schools.

Having said that, if my kids were younger and I were arriving in CM today, I'd take a serious look at Panyaden. It looks good on paper, but I have no idea what the reality is. As a matter of interest, I'd love to hear from people who do know more about this fascinating school.

Thakkar,

Thanks for your informative reply. As I've stated earlier, NIS has done a good job preparing my daughter for uni. I've seen many entire classes slide downhill when a teacher leaves... Especially in elementary grades.... The kids genuinely love some of their teachers and are devastated when they leave. As an administrator, I would try to retain this type of family closeness and put a bit more retention incentive in place. There is a high rate of teachers departing - this is definitely a concern. The other concern is the high population of Korean students leaving. Correct me if I'm wrong, but were the Korean students not the bulk of the school population? Are there any Korean representatives that are reading this whom would like to contribute to these comments?

Scott, the exact same thing happened around 5 years ago, the Koreans were offered a deal by Prem, pretty much 90% left and enrolled there, but almost all were back in a few years. This goes down to the amount of discount their companies get on the enrollment and tuition. In the case of Prem they had offered a great deal. No enrollment fee and they undercut the NIS tuition fee by 10%. It wasn't until the second year when they had to pay the full fee at Prem did they decide to return to NIS.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Diablo Bob

[Mapguy]

About teachers and teaching:

...snip...Emerson said "Children are not things to be moulded, but people to be unfolded."

Thanks, Thakkar. Lovely quote! But perhaps a bit too poetic! Still, it is something for teachers to pin up on their personal bulletin boards. Thakkar also noted the dictum: "Do no harm!" That, too, should be on the bulletin board. But students are, after all, still puppies (except most adolescents who claim to know everything!) They do need a "guide on the side," but they don't need a "sage on the stage," which is probably not too far off a characteristic of rote learning still favored in Asia. "Mould?!" You might more accurately say "straightjacket!"

About teachers, administrators and owners in Chiang Mai schools:

As related in posts above, it does seem that NIS is taking a really big hit with administrator and teacher turnover this year. Quite a ruckus! Under normal circumstances, the effect on schools is generally cyclical. And international school teachers --- good, bad and indifferent --- do tend to favor moving on and around. That seems to be part of life's challenge for them. They don't have the kind of "protection" unionized teachers "back home" have that keeps them secure but rooted, perhaps too rooted. If it can hire (competitively educated) good teachers at least six years experience and keep them six years, a school will probably have a pretty powerful staff. Anybody ever had "Old Faithful," a teacher who's retired after 35 years but probably only taught three of those years? Anyway, dealing with teacher turnover is a very difficult challenge for any international school administration. I don't, by the way, mean to leave out teacher-administrators! Owners? I guess you have to ask why they are really "in the education game?" The owners of Chiang Mai schools have different stories to tell. Finally, I can't help but say the nice things said above by Thakkar about the inexperienced 27-year-old owner-manager of NIS are the first nice things I've ever heard anyone say about her!

About the new Panyadan:

New, yes. Appealing, yes. The ethos of the school is quite appealing. Stable? Not yet. How will it actually deliver? That will not be known for some time. In fairness to other schools, one should note that most if not all have a "green streak" philosophically, some quite pronounced.

Student behavior:

Drugs on campus has been mentioned a couple of times once about APIS ( a casual student report)and once about PTIS (an undifferentiated slap) Blame the schools?! I suggest that none of the international schools is permissive. Bingeing on alcohol or other adolescent behavioral excesses, such as easy sex, generally have not been mentioned. Again, no school favors such behavior nor wants a bad reputation.

So, "What's a parent to do ??!!" asked Diablo Bob!

Well, don't panic! Being a parent isn't easy these days! Don't expect to fob off your responsibility as a parent on a school. Choosing a school, I suggest focusing primarily on what a school is supposed to do: prepare a student academically, creatively and physically. So, look at things like teacher:student ratio, curriculum, a consistent philosophy in teaching methodology that features teaching students how to learn not how to memorize (although a good memory is a handy thing!) and teaching students how to ask good questions not recite what's in a book.

[chaoyang]

John, the headmaster who is leaving NIS, was named to the position to urgently fill the post all those years ago when the headmistress returned to Canada due to a medical emergency.

It was he who basically held the school together through some very rocky years as the owner at that time was tapping so much money out that zero was spent on maintenance and equipment -- and making teacher salaries each month was a big question.

The current owner bought it as a distressed business because his own son was a young student there and he was happy with the education and atmosphere.

A man with extremely deep pockets, he has invested heavily in the fine new facility you see today.

The recent administration turnover is the culmination of a fundamental disparity in view on how the school should be run. John is beloved by the students and and all-around nice guy, but he had no formal background as a headmaster and was not known for his eye for detail or new ideas.

The manager seems to have a vision of where the school should be, but that is often about equipment, image and appearances. In the years I had direct knowledge of all this she was often absent or holed up in her office, unavailable to meet with anyone. It seemed she would make decisions in a capricious way -- it's her daddy' s football after all. Perhaps that has now changed.

While the school certainly looks better that the old, rundown facility it occupied before, it remains to be seen if it can maintain the strong sense of community it once had. Ironically when times were tough, the school seemed more important to the students, their parents and the teachers -- perhaps because its very existence was in jeopardy.

Change is always hard, of course, but that pain often leads to new growth. Yet whoever replaces John will have big shoes to fill. John was a pillar of support for NIS and loved by an entire generation of students who passed through -- some from kindergarten to graduation.

[Tractor]

I do know that the popular principal of NIS for more than a decade, Mr. John, was demoted to "Head of Academic Personell" (the spelling used on their website) this year and will be leaving the school after graduation ceremonies in June and return to the States.

For a long time, NIS had a core of long-term teachers who have deep roots in Chiang Mai. The school was sold -- due to a financial crisis brought about by the actions of its previous owner -- in 2001 to a wealthy BKK oil executive, who installed his then 27-year-old daughter as the manager and built a beautiful new campus.

Things went well at first, but then the often absent daughter began to make controversial decisions without consultation with the administrative staff, etc, etc. Typical story of hi-so Thai meets (then refuses to meet) frank-speaking Westerners ... not a happy recipe.

Some of the long-term teachers began to leave in about 2006, and it is my understanding the situation came to a climax last fall when Mr. John was demoted. He and the assistant principal resigned, possibly along with a number of teachers.

For better or worse, it is truly the end of an era as Mr. John leaves.

Also, Mr. Andrew ("asst. principal") has given his notice. Mr. John 16yrs. and Mr. Andrew 13 yrs. - several other core teachers are leaving. I was able to attend a few parent /"management" meetings and from my biz background noted it was just that... business... Soooooo, us "shareholders" gave a few ultimatums which obviously, have not been powerful enough. I will strongly consider my son returning or not to NIS. It's truly a shame as the school prepared my daughter very well for college / uni.

I have a relative associated with NIS, when I read Scotts reply, I shipped it for comment, here is what just returned:

"From High School:

Andrew is going to CMIS...has always wanted to be at CMIS...

2 teachers are leaving because of new baby and turned in resignation in August 2010... return to US

2 teachers are leaving because in Dec. they interviewed in Mexico and got jobs... their decision is based on what went on with John and Andrew and the new principles attitude

1 teacher is leaving because she doesn't like teaching HS computer

From Elementary:

1 teacher is leaving because of family (she lost both parents in the past year and wants to be closer to family) return to Canada

1 teacher is leaving because he did PYP in his student teaching and would like to get certification with it...has to go to PYP school - will go to Phenom Phen

1 teacher is leaving because she wants to eventually teach in Australia and they have more need for ECE teachers and she needs to get some experience in that area... going to teach kindergarten at CMIS

From ECC:

1 is leaving because she wants to get a degree to teach a higher grade...not day care

1 is leaving but only came here for one year to give her Thai/Canadian daughter time to know grandparents and her heritage... Ms. Carrie

And for your information CMIS is in no better shape than we are except they are 'the premier' school. They have two principals...primary and secondary... and the head. The board wants to fire the head but the primary principal (who is great) has one more year and told the board if they fired him this year she would leave and not return. They can't have that because Andrew is the new secondary and losing the only existing primary and replacing the head would be catastrophic. The owners at CMIS are playing the same games as NIS. The church refuses to buy the land for CMIS to build their new school...so their fees went up drastically so they can begin to save money to buy the land and build the new school.

NO...neither CMIS or NIS are on solid ground at the time. Matter of fact...NONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL SCHOOLS IN CHIANGMAI can brag much. Prem has had to lay off teachers... APIS has had a big disertion of staff... I'd say the Germans are probably the best set... sauerkraut!

Well, what's a parent to do?

As a teacher at NIS, I would like to add some info on why elementary teachers are leaving.

One teacher (an excellent candidate for the elementary principal that is so badly needed) left a few months ago due to the low salary and benefits. The teacher going to Canada is leaving solely due to the fact that one cannot support a family on the NIS salary plus no help is given towards family members' airfare etc. A letter was sent to parents on the PAC and staff clearly stating this. The teacher going to CMIS is doing so largely due to feeling a lack of response and support over the years from administration. Low salary is also a consideration, but less significant.

As for the two high school teachers going to Mexico, they had a number of reasons and had made their decision before we even met the new principal.

[infernalman7]

Mapguy summed everything up really well.

As for drugs issue, it may not be considered as an issue for some people. Drug uses in Chiang Mai international school kids tend to be marijuana. PTIS in 2006 suspended almost 45 students in a single day... pretty impressive. It doesn't seem to be the problem of the school but it is more like the problem of our (my) generation. I've tried marijuana once but fortunately I am not addicted to it .. as I think I am allergic to any kind of grass.

Almost everyone that I knew in Melbourne University, has a friend who has used drugs or has tried it him/herself. To be honest, it's more like a norm. Friends will be there to peer-pressure all the time anywhere you go from school to university. But in any circumstances, each kid needs to learn to resist that and hopefully their friends will be understanding enough to not alienate him/her.

You cannot judge a school based on drug use incidents... especially schools in Chiang Mai. It's just.. everywhere.

Anyway, someone asked earlier about entrance to international curriculum of Thai universities. It's pretty simple actually because most top Thai universities will have a direct examination into their programs/courses including interviews. So basically it doesn't really matter which school you send you kid to, but you have to make sure that s/he has good enough grades. (For IB graduates: a pass score 28 out of 45 is acceptable) SAT Exam is also recommended if the school s/he attended did not have an internationally recognized diploma like AP, A-Level or IB. Chula conducts its own test system which is very similar to the SAT.

Hope this helps.

[Ricardo]

Scott, the exact same thing happened around 5 years ago, the Koreans were offered a deal by Prem, pretty much 90% left and enrolled there, but almost all were back in a few years. This goes down to the amount of discount their companies get on the enrollment and tuition. In the case of Prem they had offered a great deal. No enrollment fee and they undercut the NIS tuition fee by 10%. It wasn't until the second year when they had to pay the full fee at Prem did they decide to return to NIS.

I can't comment on the 'deal' by Prem, but I do recall that their currency had just halved in value against the Baht, prior to the departure of the Korean students. Being in a similar position, if not quite so dramatic or sudden, as regards the US$ & GBP, then I can sympathise with both their parents' desire for an international-education and also their need to make cost-savings.

[DekDoi]

On the topic of NIS teacher turn over, I'd like to share something.

It seems that some of the teachers that NIS are recruiting this year do not hold internationally recognised teaching qualifications. They have started recruiting ESL teachers from Thai schools to be international school homeroom teachers.

[chaoyang]

I can't comment on the 'deal' by Prem<snip>

I can -- I recall it clearly. The Korean students in question all lived in a big house run by a Korean woman whose livelihood was something of a "house mother" for them. Because English-language and private schools are much more expensive in Korea, a system evolved of sending groups to live in Chiang Mai and enroll in one of the many options available. Actually a very good idea.

But in this case, a deal was cut with Prem to move them en mass without even application procedures or transcripts and they were very shortly jerked out of NIS and sent on to Prem. I don't know the financial details, but this was at the height of Prem's intensive promotion of itself as a "highest standard'. even exclusive, school. They accepted 10 or more Koreans students mid-year without so much as a transcript Some of the students were in tears, but I believe the older ones went on to graduate from Prem.

[scotbeve]

I can't comment on the 'deal' by Prem<snip>

I can -- I recall it clearly. The Korean students in question all lived in a big house run by a Korean woman whose livelihood was something of a "house mother" for them. Because English-language and private schools are much more expensive in Korea, a system evolved of sending groups to live in Chiang Mai and enroll in one of the many options available. Actually a very good idea.

But in this case, a deal was cut with Prem to move them en mass without even application procedures or transcripts and they were very shortly jerked out of NIS and sent on to Prem. I don't know the financial details, but this was at the height of Prem's intensive promotion of itself as a "highest standard'. even exclusive, school. They accepted 10 or more Koreans students mid-year without so much as a transcript Some of the students were in tears, but I believe the older ones went on to graduate from Prem.

Wow! Seems competition has really heated up!!!

[infernalman7]

I can't comment on the 'deal' by Prem<snip>

I can -- I recall it clearly. The Korean students in question all lived in a big house run by a Korean woman whose livelihood was something of a "house mother" for them. Because English-language and private schools are much more expensive in Korea, a system evolved of sending groups to live in Chiang Mai and enroll in one of the many options available. Actually a very good idea.

But in this case, a deal was cut with Prem to move them en mass without even application procedures or transcripts and they were very shortly jerked out of NIS and sent on to Prem. I don't know the financial details, but this was at the height of Prem's intensive promotion of itself as a "highest standard'. even exclusive, school. They accepted 10 or more Koreans students mid-year without so much as a transcript Some of the students were in tears, but I believe the older ones went on to graduate from Prem.

Wow mate you know this stuff quite well. I was shocked when I was at Prem in 2005 the sudden increase in number of Korean students. And the funny thing is that all of them live in the same hard-core "Christian" Korean house somewhere near NIS. They later started to move into the boarding program of the school not able to withstand how strictly the Korean house is run.

As for the curriculum superiority of Prem, I really think that it doesn't matter until the IB Diploma program starts, which is in Grade 11 and 12. You can pretty much do any other program you like prior to that. Back then when I was at Prem, the school didn't even have MYP (middle school program by the IB) but instead IGCSE... and the transition wasn't even a problem. Basically, it's the IB Diploma in Grade 11 and 12 that prepares students best for university. Apart from that, not much at all.. don't waste your money going to Prem before then.

I notice a lot of students from Bali International Schools join Prem each year once they enter Grade 11 for the same reason: because their school doesn't offer the program.

Sadly based on the latest graduating class, I think there has been a slight downgrade in terms of university acceptance. Some students don't even know what they are going to do after graduating and those students, somehow, happen to be kids who have been studying at Prem for years. The new ones that recently joined the class seem to have better results. Just my observation though.

Edited May 30, 2011 by infernalman7

[chaoyang]

Wow! Seems competition has really heated up!!!

Scott, this was a number of years ago ... must have been about 2005.

I was involved with schools in Chiang Mai from 1993 to 2006. These international schools are by no means immune from the flaws that plague businesses, and most unfortunately flaws often seen in other walks of life in Thailand, including but not limited to: short-term thinking, deception, ruthlessness over money, pettiness, disputes over real or perceived loss of face, grandiosity. In the case of Lanna, APIS, NIS and Prem ... these are for-profit businesses, sometimes run by "high status" Thai people who have an extreme sense of entitlement. CMIS is bedeviled by similar issues, but they are manifested more around power and control because it is ostensibly a non-profit operation.

I was shocked many times by things that owners/administrators did. But this is Thailand, and just as you can't change the tides, you have to deal with that reality. Also, I do think the teachers at most of the schools do a good job.

Edited May 30, 2011 by chaoyang

[flakes]

Hmmm yeah this is kind of shocking 30 % of students NIS will leave?why students and teachers want to leave ?

maybe i need to focus on the Panyaden school sofar i only heared positive news this school

flakes

Mapguy,

Once again, a thorough point of view..... I'm sure that many of us (old hands and new) appreciated your comment.

A quick overview of my family and experience of intl schools in CM: I've lived in Thailand for 30 yrs., married for 23 yrs., 2 children - daughter is in uni and son still in NIS. Daughter attended APIS (boarding) for 1 yr. and then NIS for 3 years, then a Junior College in Sydney. My son has been in NIS since Gr. 3 and attends various summer courses abroad for a week or 3 annually. NIS has, in the past, done a pretty good job scholastically and my kids are actually interested in the learning process. My wife and myself do all that is possible to encourage and nurture this interest.

I has come to my attention - as of yesterday - that NIS is once again in a crisis situation. There was a parents committee meeting a few days ago that, unfortunately, I did not know about and therefore did not attend. My son informed me that there are no less than 6 high school (secondary) teachers who will not be returning for the 2011-12 year. And the student population will decrease up to (and including) 30%. IMHO, this is a crisis. This may be a lateral or parallel topic from the OP. Or moderators? Please advise.

[PlanetX]

NIS isn't in a Crisis

The teachers that left had other reasons

Projected enrollment is expected to increase according to the parent newsletter

Out of the 6 HS teachers leaving - 4 are teacher couples that have other reasons for leaving

There is a brand new principal coming

According to the parent board the teachers also received a modest raise

[Diablo Bob]

On the topic of NIS teacher turn over, I'd like to share something.

It seems that some of the teachers that NIS are recruiting this year do not hold internationally recognised teaching qualifications. They have started recruiting ESL teachers from Thai schools to be international school homeroom teachers.

Another highly doubtfull rumor. The new priciple (is bringing/has teachers following) him from the International School in Bangkok and probably more importantly, WHY would NIS jeopardize their WASC accredidation by having non-certified teachers? For NIS to acquire a work permit for a teacher their paperwork includes their certifications!

[Puwa]

It strikes me that we parents with kids at international schools have all ended up in a similar position, no matter where our kids study. On the one hand, each of us wants to feel good about the choices we've made and want to see "our school" succeed. On the other, we're always stealing furtive glances at the others to see if we're missing out. We tend to minimize the problems we see at "our" schools and take some satisfaction in the troubles or weaknesses of others--not really out of spite, but insecurity. When we fear that we're missing out on a better option, we change to a new school, until that one runs into problems. Naturally, families will choose and migrate as they see fit, without really being able to force much improvement. Voting with your feet ain't always what it's cracked up to be. It's one of those distorted situations where good individual choices add up to a weaker, not stronger, market.

But at the end of the day, we're all the poorer for it, especially the kids.

I wonder if it would help to organize all international school families to support a set of common standards of accountability. This would pressure schools out of their "accept-our-ways-or-go-somewhere-else" attitude. Obviously, the standards would have to be broad enough to allow for the natural differences among schools. But drawing from this thread and others, as well as the experience and concerns of many families, standards might include:

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc.

Input from many others would improve and expand such a list greatly.

Accepting such standards would have to be voluntary. Of course, the schools would at first resist being held to new standards of accountability. But once the first 1 or 2 agreed, the others would be forced to join. Unlike formal accreditation systems, like WASC, this is driven by the "consumer." And the broad base of parents across institutions would ensure that no school enjoyed preferential treatment.

One can always think of a thousand reasons why a new idea like this wouldn't work, or why it would be difficult to implement. I'm not ignoring the difficulties-- I just take them for granted as problems to be solved. My question is more whether or not others agree with the underlying logic of dumping school rivalries among parents in favor of some smart and constructive collective action.

[chaoyang]

I wonder if it would help to organize all international school families to support a set of common standards of accountability. This would pressure schools out of their "accept-our-ways-or-go-somewhere-else" attitude. Obviously, the standards would have to be broad enough to allow for the natural differences among schools. But drawing from this thread and others, as well as the experience and concerns of many families, standards might include:

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc.

Input from many others would improve and expand such a list greatly.

Accepting such standards would have to be voluntary. Of course, the schools would at first resist being held to new standards of accountability. But once the first 1 or 2 agreed, the others would be forced to join. Unlike formal accreditation systems, like WASC, this is driven by the "consumer." And the broad base of parents across institutions would ensure that no school enjoyed preferential treatment.

One can always think of a thousand reasons why a new idea like this wouldn't work, or why it would be difficult to implement. I'm not ignoring the difficulties-- I just take them for granted as problems to be solved. My question is more whether or not others agree with the underlying logic of dumping school rivalries among parents in favor of some smart and constructive collective action.

This may not be as big a pipe dream as some might say at first glance. If parents could form a group and share info, at least there would be accurate data available on what fees, etc, are charged. If a parents' group reached consensus on a good school -- giving it a "seal of approval" of sorts -- then owners/managers might actually take their wishes into account because they would like that "seal" to further their own goals of increased enrollment or prestige.

As well, word-of-mouth recommendations are the most powerful marketing there is.

The biggest problem of all in these schools is accountability: Whether it's a private owner or non-profit board, there is little transparency. And you are quite right about the biggest losers in the ongoing tug-of-war: It's the kids, as clearly evidenced by the story of the Koreans moving schools because it served the financial interests of some school or person.

[scotbeve]

I wonder if it would help to organize all international school families to support a set of common standards of accountability. This would pressure schools out of their "accept-our-ways-or-go-somewhere-else" attitude. Obviously, the standards would have to be broad enough to allow for the natural differences among schools. But drawing from this thread and others, as well as the experience and concerns of many families, standards might include:

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc.

Input from many others would improve and expand such a list greatly.

Accepting such standards would have to be voluntary. Of course, the schools would at first resist being held to new standards of accountability. But once the first 1 or 2 agreed, the others would be forced to join. Unlike formal accreditation systems, like WASC, this is driven by the "consumer." And the broad base of parents across institutions would ensure that no school enjoyed preferential treatment.

One can always think of a thousand reasons why a new idea like this wouldn't work, or why it would be difficult to implement. I'm not ignoring the difficulties-- I just take them for granted as problems to be solved. My question is more whether or not others agree with the underlying logic of dumping school rivalries among parents in favor of some smart and constructive collective action.

This may not be as big a pipe dream as some might say at first glance. If parents could form a group and share info, at least there would be accurate data available on what fees, etc, are charged. If a parents' group reached consensus on a good school -- giving it a "seal of approval" of sorts -- then owners/managers might actually take their wishes into account because they would like that "seal" to further their own goals of increased enrollment or prestige.

As well, word-of-mouth recommendations are the most powerful marketing there is.

The biggest problem of all in these schools is accountability: Whether it's a private owner or non-profit board, there is little transparency. And you are quite right about the biggest losers in the ongoing tug-of-war: It's the kids, as clearly evidenced by the story of the Koreans moving schools because it served the financial interests of some school or person.

Indeed, the sense of transparency seems to be the way of the govt's mindset of transparency - meaning extremely opaque! Myself and a few other concerned parents had at one or 2 parent meetings, brought up the topic of a quarterly spreadsheet revealing all monetary transactions to us "shareholder" (parents). Seems like a solution to many issues on Puwa's list and Chaoyang's replies! Perhaps this should be pushed a bit harder by all us parents in all CM intl. schools (or countrywide!).

[flakes]

So Which one to choose

Panyaden,CMIS.NIS,LANNA,GRACE, ?????????????

Well ofcourse i need visti them all them basicly follow my instinct.

I mean what some people like about a certain school can be exactely what others dislike about that same school..

I just wanted to hear some experiences from the parents here and i like to thank every body for their contribution ..

I look forward checking out the schools

and lets be real perfect schools dont exist same as perfect humans dont exist.

[scotbeve]

So Which one to choose

Panyaden,CMIS.NIS,LANNA,GRACE, ?????????????

Well ofcourse i need visti them all them basicly follow my instinct.

I mean what some people like about a certain school can be exactely what others dislike about that same school..

I just wanted to hear some experiences from the parents here and i like to thank every body for their contribution ..

I look forward checking out the schools

and lets be real perfect schools dont exist same as perfect humans dont exist.

Good luck Flakes! I hope you find the school that suits your children's needs!

[folium]

It strikes me that we parents with kids at international schools have all ended up in a similar position, no matter where our kids study. On the one hand, each of us wants to feel good about the choices we've made and want to see "our school" succeed. On the other, we're always stealing furtive glances at the others to see if we're missing out. We tend to minimize the problems we see at "our" schools and take some satisfaction in the troubles or weaknesses of others--not really out of spite, but insecurity. When we fear that we're missing out on a better option, we change to a new school, until that one runs into problems. Naturally, families will choose and migrate as they see fit, without really being able to force much improvement. Voting with your feet ain't always what it's cracked up to be. It's one of those distorted situations where good individual choices add up to a weaker, not stronger, market.

But at the end of the day, we're all the poorer for it, especially the kids.

I wonder if it would help to organize all international school families to support a set of common standards of accountability. This would pressure schools out of their "accept-our-ways-or-go-somewhere-else" attitude. Obviously, the standards would have to be broad enough to allow for the natural differences among schools. But drawing from this thread and others, as well as the experience and concerns of many families, standards might include:

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc.

Input from many others would improve and expand such a list greatly.

Accepting such standards would have to be voluntary. Of course, the schools would at first resist being held to new standards of accountability. But once the first 1 or 2 agreed, the others would be forced to join. Unlike formal accreditation systems, like WASC, this is driven by the "consumer." And the broad base of parents across institutions would ensure that no school enjoyed preferential treatment.

One can always think of a thousand reasons why a new idea like this wouldn't work, or why it would be difficult to implement. I'm not ignoring the difficulties-- I just take them for granted as problems to be solved. My question is more whether or not others agree with the underlying logic of dumping school rivalries among parents in favor of some smart and constructive collective action.

You are absolutely right in what you seek but I would suggest that you are unlikely to achieve all these objectives.

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants. The essence of any succesful business is to have differential pricing, ie you charge some people more than others. Capitalism 101 demands that you charge people as much as you can get away with. The last thing any rational business does is go public with discounts for volume or influence (e.g. your Korean market). Expecting any school to be frank about this is completely unrealistic. What about your bank, car dealer, local restaurant, uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all? They don't charge the same price for all customers, why should a for-profit school?

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc The first part is eminently achievable and is really there for the asking. The second again is probably a "bridge too far". As a parent one has a very focused, approximately 5-6 year time horizon, while the owners of the business deal with multiple customers and should be focused on the long-run returns against costs. Again name me any other business that gives full public disclosure of all board meeting discussions and decisions. That would be commercial suicide and a gift to the competition. As can be seen just from this thread on TV there are lots of very involved parties from probably all the international schools in CM making the most of short term situations to boost their own appeal and attractiveness. TV positively heaves with interested parties only too happy to kick a competitor when they are down and boost their own merits, hence all the "friend of friend" connections claimed by posters. Any school worth its salt has people monitoring threads of interest on TV as it is seen as a highly influential marketing channel and a way of gaining local advantage.

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc. This is a basic requirement of any business that wants to be taken seriously and is gradually being adopted by the intl schools in CM. Problem diffusion is a valuable management technique, again with the emphasis on minimal impact to the bottom line.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover. Paying people as little as a company can get away with is fundamental to success. Schools in the Gulf or S. Korea have to pay silly wages to teachers as no one would work there otherwise. The nicer a place is the less a school needs to pay teachers. According to second hand info CM is positively generous compared to Sri Lanka, where it is clearly stated that teacher salaries will only suit those enjoying a pension, second incomes or having very low financial demands. Turnover is rarely a function of salary alone.

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience. Historically a weakness in LOS with unqualified teachers and in some cases personal lives that would curtail a teaching career in more selective parts of the world. This is beginning to be seriously addressed and all parents should be insisting on proper checks and standards for all in contact with their children. Even this will not guarantee perfection but should be the minimum level of reassurance.

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc. Accountability, managing expectations and avoiding nasty surprises are the hallmarks of a successful company. Probably most intl schools in CM have varying degrees of management expertise/credibility, so don't hold your breath for 100% disclosure (no sane business would do this). but as ever, if you don't ask you don't get.

[coreyp2]

"From High School:

Andrew is going to CMIS...has always wanted to be at CMIS...

2 teachers are leaving because of new baby and turned in resignation in August 2010... return to US

2 teachers are leaving because in Dec. they interviewed in Mexico and got jobs... their decision is based on what went on with John and Andrew and the new principles attitude

1 teacher is leaving because she doesn't like teaching HS computer

I would just like to point out that the the HS Computer teacher is retiring at the age of 67. This is the reason she is leaving NOT because she doesn't like teaching HS computer!

She has been heard to say that she has great hopes that NIS will become an even better school under the new administration if the management follow through on the changes they are proposing.

[scotbeve]

It strikes me that we parents with kids at international schools have all ended up in a similar position, no matter where our kids study. On the one hand, each of us wants to feel good about the choices we've made and want to see "our school" succeed. On the other, we're always stealing furtive glances at the others to see if we're missing out. We tend to minimize the problems we see at "our" schools and take some satisfaction in the troubles or weaknesses of others--not really out of spite, but insecurity. When we fear that we're missing out on a better option, we change to a new school, until that one runs into problems. Naturally, families will choose and migrate as they see fit, without really being able to force much improvement. Voting with your feet ain't always what it's cracked up to be. It's one of those distorted situations where good individual choices add up to a weaker, not stronger, market.

But at the end of the day, we're all the poorer for it, especially the kids.

I wonder if it would help to organize all international school families to support a set of common standards of accountability. This would pressure schools out of their "accept-our-ways-or-go-somewhere-else" attitude. Obviously, the standards would have to be broad enough to allow for the natural differences among schools. But drawing from this thread and others, as well as the experience and concerns of many families, standards might include:

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc.

Input from many others would improve and expand such a list greatly.

Accepting such standards would have to be voluntary. Of course, the schools would at first resist being held to new standards of accountability. But once the first 1 or 2 agreed, the others would be forced to join. Unlike formal accreditation systems, like WASC, this is driven by the "consumer." And the broad base of parents across institutions would ensure that no school enjoyed preferential treatment.

One can always think of a thousand reasons why a new idea like this wouldn't work, or why it would be difficult to implement. I'm not ignoring the difficulties-- I just take them for granted as problems to be solved. My question is more whether or not others agree with the underlying logic of dumping school rivalries among parents in favor of some smart and constructive collective action.

You are absolutely right in what you seek but I would suggest that you are unlikely to achieve all these objectives.

1) Transparency in how tuition fees are determined and applied, including variations for different kinds of applicants. The essence of any succesful business is to have differential pricing, ie you charge some people more than others. Capitalism 101 demands that you charge people as much as you can get away with. The last thing any rational business does is go public with discounts for volume or influence (e.g. your Korean market). Expecting any school to be frank about this is completely unrealistic. What about your bank, car dealer, local restaurant, uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all? They don't charge the same price for all customers, why should a for-profit school?

2) Clear explanation of decision-making structures and processes, and access to proceedings of boards of directors etc The first part is eminently achievable and is really there for the asking. The second again is probably a "bridge too far". As a parent one has a very focused, approximately 5-6 year time horizon, while the owners of the business deal with multiple customers and should be focused on the long-run returns against costs. Again name me any other business that gives full public disclosure of all board meeting discussions and decisions. That would be commercial suicide and a gift to the competition. As can be seen just from this thread on TV there are lots of very involved parties from probably all the international schools in CM making the most of short term situations to boost their own appeal and attractiveness. TV positively heaves with interested parties only too happy to kick a competitor when they are down and boost their own merits, hence all the "friend of friend" connections claimed by posters. Any school worth its salt has people monitoring threads of interest on TV as it is seen as a highly influential marketing channel and a way of gaining local advantage.

3) Having in place conflict-resolutions systems to deal with complaints by teachers, students, parents etc. This is a basic requirement of any business that wants to be taken seriously and is gradually being adopted by the intl schools in CM. Problem diffusion is a valuable management technique, again with the emphasis on minimal impact to the bottom line.

4) Adequate compensation to teachers according to market trends, to prevent high turnover. Paying people as little as a company can get away with is fundamental to success. Schools in the Gulf or S. Korea have to pay silly wages to teachers as no one would work there otherwise. The nicer a place is the less a school needs to pay teachers. According to second hand info CM is positively generous compared to Sri Lanka, where it is clearly stated that teacher salaries will only suit those enjoying a pension, second incomes or having very low financial demands. Turnover is rarely a function of salary alone.

5) Only employing teachers with proper credentials and experience. Historically a weakness in LOS with unqualified teachers and in some cases personal lives that would curtail a teaching career in more selective parts of the world. This is beginning to be seriously addressed and all parents should be insisting on proper checks and standards for all in contact with their children. Even this will not guarantee perfection but should be the minimum level of reassurance.

6) Some degree of financial disclosure in how revenues are divided among operating costs, capital improvements, etc. Accountability, managing expectations and avoiding nasty surprises are the hallmarks of a successful company. Probably most intl schools in CM have varying degrees of management expertise/credibility, so don't hold your breath for 100% disclosure (no sane business would do this). but as ever, if you don't ask you don't get.

Puwa and folium,

The last sentence in your above reply Puwa really got my bells and whistles going! "My question is more whether or not others agree with the underlying logic of dumping school rivalries among parents in favor of some smart and constructive collective action." It would be this group of us parents WORKING TOGETHER (as a consumer rights group of sorts) which I would assume to be a rather large number, that could in fact, have far better leverage than per school issues/debates such as folium's comprehensive list above. Or does this sound a bit too radical???

Regards,

Scott

[Puwa]

Hi Scott,

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

But I'm not suggesting that parents should organize immediately into some "pressure group" to start making demands of the schools.

Instead, I mean that families can pay a role in helping schools improve. First we must figure out our common expectations, then find ways to evaluate schools accordingly. One step could be a simple survey, in order to find what concerns are most important to most people. (One of the problems we face is that the entire issue of comparing and improving schools is ruled by anecdote and hearsay.)

A survey could yield information like:

% of families who feel that their school sometimes loses good teachers because of low salaries

% of parents who feel that they would be more likely to consider the school "good" if it published more financial information

% families who would like the school to emphasize more in particular areas, such as sports or volunteerism and community engagement

Imagine having comparable info among all the schools. The goal is not to come up with precise statistics--naturally these are largely subjective assessments--but to structure some discussion on what's needed.

After a first survey, asking these questions should become an annual activity, while also asking where the families have seen improvements over time. This would be public information, provided free to all and available on the web. It would be a resource for parents old and new in helping to choose a school and focus on how to help. The smart schools would see the value, learn how to listen to these results, and see their ratings increase.

Atop this foundation, those who are interested could take further steps. Working in "their own" schools, they can advocate for change. I've met lots of committed parents who are always trying to pitch in and help their school, with varying success, so this might be a way to help them do more.

If anyone wants to develop the idea further, let's start a new thread. I don't want to hijack this one any longer. I'm not going to start the thread myself because I want to see if anyone else is curious enough to take a step. I'll step along with you.

Puwa