A Question Thaksin Will Not Answer

[jdinasia]

Background Story; aka "other things I did when I was in Burma promoting ties between Thailand and a bunch of despot Generals"

http://www.dvb.no/an...-backyard/12359

From the link .....

But the interview was timely. The very same day, the Thai premier paid a one-day visit to Burma. He made a courtesy call on Senior General Than Shwe – with whom he was pictured shaking hands and looking notably uncomfortable – and discussed business with premier Thein Sein. On one key issue, the reopening of the border at Mae Sot, Abhisit failed to deliver. But on another, far more important front, Abhisit’s visit was a victory. The deep-sea port at Dawei, it was agreed, would be developed as a new industrial zone.

Let's see --- he had the decency to look uncomfortable shaking hands with Shwe ---- and he not only insured that another Map Tha Put was not created in Thailand ... he managed to get a Thai company paid to develop the new deep sea port in a different ASEAN country? A deal that benefits Thailand in innumerable ways? Then again there is the most important statement in the article .......

Since the 2006 coup that ousted Thaksin Shinawatra, many have raised legitimate concerns over the health of democracy in Thailand. Map Ta Phut showed there remain vital signs. Citizens, small people with little clout, opposed the will of big business, and the state listened.

The statement that big business LOST and the people won in Thailand ... imho a HUGE step forward for Thai democracy --- (and even the article note that it means even after a coup -- democracy is still breathing in Thailand

Now --- if Abhisit had say ... owned Italian Thai .... and ordered the Thai government to give loans to Burma so that Burma could pay Italian Thai to build the port ... THEN you would be onto something

[473geo]

The statement that big business LOST and the people won in Thailand ... imho a HUGE step forward for Thai democracy --- (and even the article note that it means even after a coup -- democracy is still breathing in Thailand

Let us see how the nuclear power pans out before we celebrate too much..........

[jdinasia]

I just ran him through Interpol (because I can). Thailand has not issued a request yet. So not wanted by them yet. Maybe that well happen.

uh huh

[samurai]

I just ran him through Interpol (because I can). Thailand has not issued a request yet. So not wanted by them yet. Maybe that well happen.

uh huh

Cant be true. Interpol has Thaksin already arrested, thrice.

He is a terrorist, isn't he?

Edited May 26, 2011 by samurai

[Mrjlh]

I just ran him through Interpol (because I can). Thailand has not issued a request yet. So not wanted by them yet. Maybe that well happen.

uh huh

Run him yourself....DS..

http://www.interpol.int/public/wanted/default.asp

[473geo]

His return is solely dependent upon his being exonerated as a pre-condition.

If he does return and he is cleared off his prior convictions and preemptively of his future cases, I think most expect trouble.

Didn't he tell the reds that he'd be there with them when the first bullet was fired? (and since he controlled that, he obviously knew when it would be ......) He's like Arisaman ... always saying he'll return/turn himself in ... yet still nowhere to be found in the kingdom!

Wouldn't be the first person who led from behind.....not the last either I suspect........perhaps there in spirit if could not attend in body........you know.... due to forseen circumstances.....

[jdinasia]

I just ran him through Interpol (because I can). Thailand has not issued a request yet. So not wanted by them yet. Maybe that well happen.

uh huh

Run him yourself....DS..

http://www.interpol....ted/default.asp

The actual database for Interpol is secure

From your link --- the second? line ....

These Interpol 'Red Notices' represent only a tiny fraction of the number of red notices issued by Interpol.

edit ---- what is "DS"?

Edited May 26, 2011 by jdinasia

[samurai]

The actual database for Interpol is secure

From your link --- the second? line ....

These Interpol 'Red Notices' represent only a tiny fraction of the number of red notices issued by Interpol.

edit ---- what is "DS"?

With terrorists, travelling around the world, Interpol usually keeps quiet about the Red notices. Everyone knows that.

Its for certain somewhere on youtube or in the asiatimes.

[samurai]

Example: Order the Thailand EXIM BAnk to loan several billion Baht to the thug generals in Myanmar, so that the thug generals can buy big money equipment from a shin associated company. As said, not the examples of morals and ethics that I would like my son to see in national leaders.

As said, not the examples of morals and ethics that I would like my son to see in national leaders

Exactly!

Background Story; aka "other things I did when I was in Burma promoting ties between Thailand and a bunch of despot Generals"

http://www.dvb.no/an...-backyard/12359

Who is the guy on the right? And what is wrong with his left hand?

[phiphidon]

I wasn't going to mention the irony ---- I just stuck with the actual article that explained that photo quite nicely

There is no irony, my ONE photo was backed up by information that I don't think you quite understood the implication of. I'll try again but I don't expect you to appreciate the following either, but please try, it's good to have an appreciation of Thai politics and its implications on people outside of Thailand, not just locally.

From The Nation;

About one-third of the members of the Japanese Chamber of Commerce (JCC) are deeply concerned about the Map Ta Phut impasse,with many of those affected considering relocating their planned investments to other Asean countries if it is not resolved within six months as promised by the prime minister.

BP:Foreign investment will be key to a recovery as a drop in foreign investment could see unemployment rise or stay static. Politically, it would be bad for the government as it would signify a loss of confidence in Thailandand as the government in power, the Democrats will carry the "blame".

http://asiancorrespo...ve-map-ta-phut/

So it's nothing to do with Foreign Investers threatening to not invest in Map Ta Phut unless the government solved the "issues" aka local peoples standard of living but chose instead to pass those enviromental "issues" onto another country whose people have less than zero chance of arguing against it?

And as for other interested parties, well how about the Siam Cement Group?

And Burma offers more than just a untapped market. For Thai businesses, the country also offers respite from the environmental and other corporate standards that exist at home.

The Thai prime minister, Abhisit Vejjajiva, heard as much last month, when he visited the Map Ta Phut industrial estate in south Thailand. Seventy-six projects on the estate remain closed, after a court ruling regarding residents' complaints about leukemia and cancer rates in the area

A business lobby group is unhappy - and handed Abhisita letter, outlining its grievances over the government's handling of the case.

Compare that to Burma. where there's little chance of a court intervening so forcefully. And it's seemingly with that disparity in mind that Abhisit has hailed a landmark agreement to develop a massive port and road transportation facility in Burma. The deal - at Dawei, beside the Andaman Sea - is between a Burmese company, the state-run Myanmar Port and Development Co., and the Italian-Thai Development Co..

Worth $8.6bn, the project is the single largest foreign investment into Burma to date. It will cover 250 square kilometres, andinvolve the building of a deep-sea port to be linked to Kanchanaburi in central Thailand by a new highway. The attraction for investors is an overland shortcut to China and east Asia- bypassing the Straits of Malacca, and linking to an as-yet-unrealised labyrinth of Chinese-backed road and rail links in the Mekong region.

Domestic behemoths Siam Cement and PTT Chemicals - which have both been hit by the Map Ta Phut moratorium - have expressed their interest. Burmese businessman Zaw Zaw, who is under US sanctions for his links with Burma's rulers, is also reportedly involved in the venture, which the country's dictator, Than Shwe, sees a domestic equivalent to the China's Shenzhen economic zone.

The construction deal was signed five days before Burma's election last month, and it's noteworthy that Thai politicians have becoming friendlier towards the Burmese ruling junta in recent years. When in opposition, Abhisit's party was hostile to the military rulers next door - and critical of the then Thai prime minister, ThaksinShinawatra, for cosying up to them. Such antipathy has now been forgotten.

http://blogs.ft.com/...vests-in-burma/

You can google yourself for the group that owns a third of Siam Cement yourself to see whose interests are at stake.

So, Mr. Abhisit is not quite as altruistic in these dealings as you propose.

[jdinasia]

I wasn't going to mention the irony ---- I just stuck with the actual article that explained that photo quite nicely

There is no irony, my ONE photo was backed up by information that I don't think you quite understood the implication of. I'll try again but I don't expect you to appreciate the following either, but please try, it's good to have an appreciation of Thai politics and its implications on people outside of Thailand, not just locally.

There is one PHOTO that is off topic..... I already destroyed the article you pulled the photo from with quotes from the same article .... How does your post belong in THIS topic? Oh yeah.... it doesn't. Unlike the posts in the other topic you cried about which were actual photos of the people talked about in the thread.

I assume you are familiar with "The Lady"'s position currently on investment and involvement in Myanmar .....

Your post is only ironic in light of the real situation in SEA!

[sbk]

off topic bickering removed.

[JAG]

What is with Interpol?

Interpol wouldn't touch him with a bargepole. He was elected, he was deposed by a military coup. The courts, during the coup makers regime then convicted him of corruption. Interpol would regard it as a political conviction.

[samurai]

What is with Interpol?

Interpol wouldn't touch him with a bargepole. He was elected, he was deposed by a military coup. The courts, during the coup makers regime then convicted him of corruption. Interpol would regard it as a political conviction.

He was convicted for conflict of interests in 2008. Interpol sees that as "a political conviction" or "political motivated".

And about the get Thaksin as the terrorists, as described by some poster here or the Thai government - I guess they didn't even try to request some help by Interpol or any other foreign state with that charge.

[phiphidon]

There is one PHOTO that is off topic..... I already destroyed the article you pulled the photo from with quotes from the same article .... How does your post belong in THIS topic? Oh yeah.... it doesn't. Unlike the posts in the other topic you cried about which were actual photos of the people talked about in the thread.

I assume you are familiar with "The Lady"'s position currently on investment and involvement in Myanmar .....

Your post is only ironic in light of the real situation in SEA!

There is one PHOTO that is off topic..... I already destroyed the article you pulled the photo from with quotes from the same article

If you'd just like to back up there for a moment. My reply was a reponse to Scorecards assertion that he wouldn't want his son to have Thaksin as a role model and gave an example of Thaksins dealings with the military junta as an example of why he wouldn't. In the interests of fair debate I gave an alternative view of the (at the the time) democrat PM Abhisit having no such qualms with dealing with the junta either not only for business reasons and to get him out of a jam politically but also tread all over peoples rights, albeit this time in another country altogether. So, yes, it is very much on topic, thank you, unless we are not allowed to give an alternative view to posts?

I also question your reason to destroy the article? Which one do you refer to, was it the Financial Times Blog, or the Bangkok Pundit one, No, it wasn't the Democratic Voice of Burma Article, surely? You know who they are, right?

I assume by "the Lady" you are referring to Suu Kyi? In her own words;

Mrs. Aung San Suu Kyi cautioned that, "we also need to pay close attention to thecosts and collateral damage of our development, whether enviromental or social,"

http://blog.psaonlin...t-from-myanmar/

Not as sure as you that she's looking forward to investment that much, with Map Tha Phuts' enviromental baggage attached.

[samurai]

There is one PHOTO that is off topic..... I already destroyed the article you pulled the photo from with quotes from the same article ....

Destroyed the article

Nah, I just checked, its still there. looking intact.

[MaiChai]

There is no disputing his business and organising expertise.

Well yes, when it comes to running businesses that enjoy a complete monopoly in the market place. Would be interesting to see how successful he would be were he to head up a business that was open to competition on a level playing surface.

Does anyone remember when Taksin was spouting about how he was running the country like a CEO? What he meant was for his personal benefit; Thailand was his own private business. Now we know what he was talking about!

[virtualtraveller]

It's been five years since the coup and how far have we got with the other 5 of these corruption charges? The problem in Thailand is that Law Enforcement is selective, the process a snail's pace, and weakly applied. I suspect that the reason the establishment have not nailed Thaksin to the cross more than just three cases is that too many of their own will be implicated.

In this sense you can understand why Thaksin is crying foul and calling it all a joke. You can bet that many people sympathetic to him have been going slow on the other cases. And when he gets back into power (indirectly) all these cases will cease to proceed any further through the courts, while other cases against his opponents will be accelerated. This really is the big problem behind the crisis.

So, Thaksin apologists have a point here, I don't think you can fault the verdict, the evidence is pretty convincing, it just seems unfair to some that Thaksin was unable to influence proceedings and that similar cases have not been finalised against others.

BUT, this should not be used as an excuse to let him off the hook. From the number of serious cases outlined above, there can be no doubt that Thaksin lacks the ethics and honesty to lead this country in any manner. The same might be said of others in the past and present, but Thailand needs to take a stand and insist on a cleaner example at the top. Regrettably, the largest number of voters will likely vote to have him back and continue down the same dodgy path, much to their detriment.

[rubl]

It's been five years since the coup and how far have we got with the other 5 of these corruption charges? The problem in Thailand is that Law Enforcement is selective, the process a snail's pace, and weakly applied. I suspect that the reason the establishment have not nailed Thaksin to the cross more than just three cases is that too many of their own will be implicated.

... rest removed

As far as I know court cases against k. Thaksin are awaiting his return to be able to proceed. No such thing as 'in absentia'

[johninbkk]

Where there's smoke there is usually fire. People should do the math and realize that this election is so very important and that Thailand has a huge chance to change it's political story. I hope the Thai voters have matured during these past turbulent years and do the right thing for themselves. Thaskin is a brilliant person and it is just to bad he chose the darker side of life. He could have kept Thailand on the move forward, which sadly has to happen.

How the hell can you say he is Brilliant. This is nothing more than a criminal mind, anyone dealing outside of the box having TOTAL control of taxes, moving boundary lines, setting up infrastructure then buying land and other investments with this knowledge is BRILLANT. Holy sh..it and dumb ass can make a fortune with this crystal ball

[scorecard]

It's been five years since the coup and how far have we got with the other 5 of these corruption charges? The problem in Thailand is that Law Enforcement is selective, the process a snail's pace, and weakly applied. I suspect that the reason the establishment have not nailed Thaksin to the cross more than just three cases is that too many of their own will be implicated.

... rest removed

As far as I know court cases against k. Thaksin are awaiting his return to be able to proceed. No such thing as 'in absentia'

My Thai legal colleagues tell me that, in some of these cases there is a second factor. Prosecutors have 'information' which needs to be substantiated by documentary evidence, and/or police statements from many high ranking ministerial staff from many ministries. In many cases:

- The documents can't be found, often with acknowledgement that numerous storage boxes have totally disappeared

- The high level ministerial staff won't cooperate, because:

a. They will incriminate themselves or their buddies if they give evidence

b. They are terrified that if thaksin did ever return they will be severely punished

I'll say again, Thailand urgently needs to change the constitution / the electoral laws so that is is impossible for one man or one small group to gain such power and control, and make the penalties for vote buying and corruption even more severe; like ban for life from any form or activity, even arms length activity in politics, plus return of any funds gained through corruption or collusion with fines perhaps by a multiple of 100 of the funds stole, plus public shaming.

Edited May 27, 2011 by scorecard

[timekeeper]

Where there's smoke there is usually fire. People should do the math and realize that this election is so very important and that Thailand has a huge chance to change it's political story. I hope the Thai voters have matured during these past turbulent years and do the right thing for themselves. Thaskin is a brilliant person and it is just to bad he chose the darker side of life. He could have kept Thailand on the move forward, which sadly has to happen.

How the hell can you say he is Brilliant. This is nothing more than a criminal mind, anyone dealing outside of the box having TOTAL control of taxes, moving boundary lines, setting up infrastructure then buying land and other investments with this knowledge is BRILLANT. Holy sh..it and dumb ass can make a fortune with this crystal ball

its well known i do not like Thaksin so my critisim of him has to be viewed in that light

however, i would make this observation:

if he was so brilliant a business man why did he leave so much money behind to be seized when his corrupt dealings were discovered?

surely he did not think they would remain undiscovered?

a village cop could have followed his paper trail to the loot

if he was depending on his Thaksin people keeping a secret then that was stupid too, i have never known a Thai who could keep a secret for long

i have known ill educated drug dealers and bank robbers make better arrangements to be able to hang onto their ill gotten gains than Thaksin did

in my view, a man who cannot take care of his money does not deserve any respect........

Edited May 27, 2011 by timekeeper

[Ricardo]

I doubt any government would pass a law to appease one person.......so how could this amnesty possibly get pushed through.......unless your tunnel vision has missed a few others that may benefit from a lifting of the carpet and a swift brush stroke.........

I would agree that it's unlikely that a law might be passed or changed for just one person's benefit, except that I recall a former-PM who, several years ago, changed the rules on foreign-ownership of Thai telecoms-businesses, just a couple of days before his family-owned (in whoever's name) business was sold to Temasek ? Given that precedent, it's clearly not so impossible, that some might think that this could happen again.

K.T. sold Manchester City to a Dubai friend. UK blocked the money from this transfer because K.T didn't pay the Tax. His Dubai friend fought back and blocked some money in Dubai. This is what I heard, I cannot quote. Al Djaseera can.

You can hear so many thing about Thaksin. Do you have youtube?

Easy mistake to make, for someone who's new to DL & his history, to think that 'Manchester' must mean the well-known 'Manchester United F.C.', rather than the less-well-known 'Manchester City F.C.', which most of us know was owned by Thaksin for a year or so. It helps to be living here, or have been observing the situation for several years, to avoid this simple error.

But no problem ... just accept that you made a minor error in your facts. We all do it, and are big enough to say so, when it happens.

[Samuian]

Excerpt from 1. Post:

....so that as the government leader he will be able to absolve himself of the crimes he has been convicted and indicted in.

... besides I think there are still some cases pending...however I hope for the sake of this country that he won't succeed... we will be back to square one... coup will follow, or he will rule with an iron fist and a steel broom - through who ever, till he will be able to realize his dream to become, ah' well everyone, except those who "so dearly admire him" for the "gifts" he handed out of states coffers, can figure what this guyis up to, his dream is what a certain family managed to realize in a close by city state, not only the monopoly of one industry, but of a ah' well you figure...

Edited May 27, 2011 by Samuian

[jdinasia]

What is with Interpol?

Interpol wouldn't touch him with a bargepole. He was elected, he was deposed by a military coup. The courts, during the coup makers regime then convicted him of corruption. Interpol would regard it as a political conviction.

The Courts ---- during a Thaksin Proxy Party administration -- convicted Thaksin (correctly) for abuse of power. Somchai (Thaksin's Bro-in-law) was PM at the time and PPP was the ruling party of the coalition government. (PPP was disbanded Dec 2nd 2008). Thaksin was convicted in October of 2008.

To also get your "elected" statement into perspective .... Thaksin was elected twice .. dissolved parliament years early in 2006 and was caretaker PM, publicly resigned the caretaker PM position and finally returned to that position even though there was no constitutional way for him to do so.....

[jdinasia]

There is no disputing his business and organising expertise.

Well yes, when it comes to running businesses that enjoy a complete monopoly in the market place. Would be interesting to see how successful he would be were he to head up a business that was open to competition on a level playing surface.

Does anyone remember when Taksin was spouting about how he was running the country like a CEO? What he meant was for his personal benefit; Thailand was his own private business. Now we know what he was talking about!

For a great read ---- google Thailand Incorporated Crispin ---- some great predictions in there, almost as if Crispin and Trasker (the authors) had a crystal ball

[jayboy]

To also get your "elected" statement into perspective .... Thaksin was elected twice .. dissolved parliament years early in 2006 and was caretaker PM, publicly resigned the caretaker PM position and finally returned to that position even though there was no constitutional way for him to do so.....

To get this into perspective, this member has long been peddling this unhistorical piffle - for reasons which are obscure since whatever interpretation is accepted, it doesn't excuse the criminality of the coup makers or the disastrous events it triggered.The fact is Thaksin's administration was overthrown, nobody else's.Any respected newspaper or commentator at the time was under no doubt about this.

[jayboy]

For a great read ---- google Thailand Incorporated Crispin ---- some great predictions in there, almost as if Crispin and Trasker (the authors) had a crystal ball

It is a good article I agree.I remember thinking so at the time and as you say it's perceptive.Of course both Crispin and Tasker have good cause to be hostile to Thaksin as readers of the excvellent old F.E.E.R will remember.

One part of the article caught my eye:

"The vote for Thaksin was just as much a vote against the Democrats,"

says Duncan McCargo, senior lecturer in Thai politics at Leeds

University in Britain. "The Democrats' open contempt for the plight of

the common Thai set off a revenge vote against the party."

That still is relevant today, and explains why the Peua Thai and the redshirts have so much traction - namely the contempt many middle class Thais have for ordinary people.To be fair to Abhisit he has tried quite hard to change the image but I fear the reality may be difficult to alter.This is of course a familiar Sino-Thai position - remember the racist abuse levelled by Sondhi and his people at the PAD rallies.

[Roadman]

It's been five years since the coup and how far have we got with the other 5 of these corruption charges? The problem in Thailand is that Law Enforcement is selective, the process a snail's pace, and weakly applied. I suspect that the reason the establishment have not nailed Thaksin to the cross more than just three cases is that too many of their own will be implicated.

... rest removed

As far as I know court cases against k. Thaksin are awaiting his return to be able to proceed. No such thing as 'in absentia'

My Thai legal colleagues tell me that, in some of these cases there is a second factor. Prosecutors have 'information' which needs to be substantiated by documentary evidence, and/or police statements from many high ranking ministerial staff from many ministries. In many cases:

- The documents can't be found, often with acknowledgement that numerous storage boxes have totally disappeared

- The high level ministerial staff won't cooperate, because:

a. They will incriminate themselves or their buddies if they give evidence

b. They are terrified that if thaksin did ever return they will be severely punished

I'll say again, Thailand urgently needs to change the constitution / the electoral laws so that is is impossible for one man or one small group to gain such power and control, and make the penalties for vote buying and corruption even more severe; like ban for life from any form or activity, even arms length activity in politics, plus return of any funds gained through corruption or collusion with fines perhaps by a multiple of 100 of the funds stole, plus public shaming.

They won't though...where else can you have terrorists running for government? In Thailand you do the crime but you rarely do the time especially if you have money and patronage and / or public sympathy. Agree Thailand will only progress when a constitution is locked in place and bound by all parties along with an agreed plan on confronting corruption head on. Until then it is struck in a void of nothingness at the mercy of the greediest.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Roadman

[whybother]

To also get your "elected" statement into perspective .... Thaksin was elected twice .. dissolved parliament years early in 2006 and was caretaker PM, publicly resigned the caretaker PM position and finally returned to that position even though there was no constitutional way for him to do so.....

To get this into perspective, this member has long been peddling this unhistorical piffle - for reasons which are obscure since whatever interpretation is accepted, it doesn't excuse the criminality of the coup makers or the disastrous events it triggered.The fact is Thaksin's administration was overthrown, nobody else's.Any respected newspaper or commentator at the time was under no doubt about this.

You gave a link to an excellent article recently explaining how Thaksin was not the elected PM at the time of the coup. Unfortunately, I can't find it again.