Nazi Culture

[JJDinsay]

Yeah it probably is done out of ignorance than anything. Even if u did know it's still your opinion and if there's no law against it then i guess there's not much one can really do.

American flag may be offensive to those in Vietnam due to the 'American War'

Swastika may be offensive to Jews

Turkish flag may be offensive to Armenians

etc . . . ., different symbols mean different things to other people, there is no universal symbol.

[chownah]

Yeah it probably is done out of ignorance than anything.  Even if u did know it's still your opinion and if there's no law against it then i guess there's not much one can really do. 

American flag may be offensive to those in Vietnam due to the 'American War'

Swastika may be offensive to Jews

Turkish flag may be offensive to Armenians

etc . . . ., different symbols mean different things to other people, there is no universal symbol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your point is well taken but I'd like to just like to say that the Vietnamese people do not seem to have any lingering problems with the war they had with the American gov't. I'm an American and have traveled there many times and was pleasantly surprised to find that being an American had no negative manifestations and in fact many of them took special care to be sure that I knew that there was no problem....this includes people from both the north and the south parts of the country. The Vietnamese people seem to be able to avoid lingering hatred and I think that westerners (and especially Americans) could learn alot from them.

[Rinrada]

No body seems to get too bothered about this one any more....that is unless you had temporary membership to one of their exclusive "Clubs"

http://www.fotw.net/flags/JP.html

[chuchok]

No body seems to get too bothered about this one any more....that is unless you had temporary membership to one of their exclusive "Clubs"

http://www.fotw.net/flags/JP.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. I wonder how many Europeans know about the attrocities that the Japanese did to the Chinese and the Ruskies during the second world war....much of which they will not admit to.

[thongdee]

Call me an old fogey but does anyone notice this whole Nazi Swastika culture (if you can call it that) in Thailand? 

I walk through Robinson's or the market and they have the SS helmets for your motorbike or T-shirts or whatever.

I know a girl that is not a typical skin head white supremacist (as she is Thai.)  I asked her did she know what it meant and she laughed, "Yes."

Are they naive, do not care or just plain stupid as to what this symbolises.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you worry , she didn'tknow what it means at all ;-) :-)

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-10-11 14:51:25)

QUOTE

I can safely say Thai people don't really care about the Nazi culture, at all.

I would safely say they don't care as well, neither do I.

*

As a Westerner it doesn't offend you?

Not anymore. It used to but now I realise it is just ignorance.

Just like my mate who came round to the house in the punk days wearing a sid vicious swastika shirt, just young and ignorant.

If they knew what it was about and wore it then I would be offended.

I was offended when they were wearing Osama t-shirts, as surely they knew what it was all about. Then again they were against Bush, which I am all for.

[Rinrada]

We have our duckheads as well......lead by example...whit a sorry state.

Der Royal Fuhrer

UKs Prince Harry recently suffered widespread condemnation for wearing a Nazi uniform to a fancy dress party.

Whilst defenders of the crown have advanced many explanations for this apparent lack of taste on the part of the third-in-line to the throne - the Prince's ignorance of the cultural and historical significance of the jackboot and swastika, his political naivety, even that he was attending the party in the guise of his great-great uncle the Duke of Windsor -

The Sleaze's (local rag..innit) investigations have revealed that, far from being a fashion faux pas, Harry's costume represented the cutting edge of current youth culture.

"Goth is dead - Nazi is in, man," we were told by a nineteen year old Luke Punse whilst he queued - in full SS officer's uniform - outside a club in Putney. "Everybody's doing it now - it's like a total statement of our opposition to social norms and outsider status."

Punse's girlfriend, seventeen year old Alicia Blate - sporting thigh-length jackboots, Iron Cross and leather Wehrmacht officer's cap - agreed: "Yeah, like the Nazis are just so rejected and ostracised these days, it's just like the way society treats youth! Completely unfair!"

The queue included several other 'youth Nazis' some, like Punse dressed in full uniforms - ranging from Hitler Youth to Afrika Korps, and including a group of young men and women clad in Gestapo-style homburgs, long leather coats, wire-rim spectacles and sinister black gloves - and others, like Blate, sporting 'mix and match' customised Nazi-themed outfits, combining a variety of uniform elements and regalia.

Many also had shaven heads, whilst others had gone for the side-parting and a few had even applied a smudge of boot polish or mascara under their noses in imitation of the infamous Hitler moustache.

The Nazi influence continued inside, with hordes of uniformed youths forcing a change from the usual dance music standards to Marlene Dietrich numbers and fascist anthems. "It isn't just the uniforms - it's like a total culture, man," explained Punse, shouting to make himself heard above the strains of Dietrich singing 'The Boys in the Backroom'. "We've got our own music, even our own dances!" Punse and some of his friends proceeded to demonstrate these dance moves, strutting stiff legged about the dance floor, rhythmically raising their outstretched right arms.

At one point they all balanced on one leg, jumping up and down with the other leg outstretched, before swapping legs and repeating the move, all the while chanting "Ein reich, ein volk, ein Fuhrer". The night ended with over a hundred Nazi-clad young people pogoing up and down to 'Deutscheland Uber Alles', waving their right arms in the air and shouting "Heil! Heil! Heil!" as pictures of the Nuremburg rally played on plasma screens around the dance floor.

But exactly what is it about the twentieth century's most reviled political regime which is currently attracting Britain's angst-ridden and acne-riddled youngsters? Is it the political philosophy - a resort to extremism as a reaction to today's bland political culture?

Is it the image of power conferred by Nazi regalia - empowerment through an identification with totalitarianism? Or is it simply the lure of .....more and more and more........krup....

and heres the TIT Lad

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4170083.stm

[ZZZ]

The holocaust was a terrible event and should not be forgotten as it was a lesson learned. Having said that, we have since then had similar things happening in Mao’s China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Kosovo and Rwanda just to name a few. So a lesson learned is not always an assurance it will not happen again.

The holocaust is the only event where leaders from countries like Japan and Germany on a regular basis apologizes for what happened. What gets me is that now days the people apologizing were not even born when it happened and most of the people they apologize to were not even born when it happened.

How many apologies will it take until you get an apology accepted?

[sadman]

The holocaust was a terrible event and should not be forgotten as it was a lesson learned.

Absolutely. However, I get a bit irritated that Germans are still expected to beat their breasts over what happened. What happened was an abomination and must never be forgotten, and the lessons must indeed be learned - but that doesn't mean unending collective guilt (although individual guilt should still be punished, IMHO). As for an entire nation becoming involved, well, read Hearts of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (later adapted as Apocalypse Now!).

I wasn't even born until 15 years after the war ended, so I have no right to bleat and whine and demand satisfaction. The vast majority of Germans/Japanese etc alive now had nothing to do with it all (most weren't born either), so they should not have to feel guilty. Let's move on together, shall we? And try to ensure that it never happens again.

As for holocaust denial and wearing the swastika being offences in Germany - it is ridiculous and, frankly, an infringement of freedom of speech, enshrined under the European Convention on Human Rights. Just because some people might say something I find odious (and I do) shouldn't take away their right to say it.

[lovejoy]

i heard that you cant even write the letters ss together that there is a symbol that replaces it.

is that true?

[Jim 50]

Call me an old fogey but does anyone notice this whole Nazi Swastika culture (if you can call it that) in Thailand? 

I walk through Robinson's or the market and they have the SS helmets for your motorbike or T-shirts or whatever.

I know a girl that is not a typical skin head white supremacist (as she is Thai.)  I asked her did she know what it meant and she laughed, "Yes."

Are they naive, do not care or just plain stupid as to what this symbolises.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Nazi Swastika symbolizes something that is not politically corrent and nothing more.

[Heng]

i heard that you cant even write the letters ss together that there is a symbol that replaces it.

is that true?

Yeah, it looks like a capital B with a long tail. Didn't know it was because of the SS though.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

i heard that you cant even write the letters ss together that there is a symbol that replaces it.

is that true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, it looks like a capital B with a long tail. Didn't know it was because of the SS though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't. It was, and still is, a German letter meaning double S

[Pablo H]

As mentioned in other posts, the swastika has been around for ages. I think the nazi's thought it to be an Aryann (sp) symbol.

The majority of Thais are not taught about past wars in Europe. I have seen youngsters working in 7/11 with swastika tattos on their hands, dont really think they paying homage to the nazis, its just a fad.

Edited October 13, 2005 by Pablo H

[Heng]

Well, in America everyone is getting Chinese and Japanese art and writing (which they can't read) tattoos. One artist told me a girl who thought she got Strengh inked on her arm in Chinese until a old Chinese lady asked her why she had dogsh1t or maybe it was just sh1t, written on her arm. Let me let you these rap guys with Chinese written on their arms just look stupid! So, Asians aren't the only ones.

Yeah, I remember a gal back in college who had "turtle-storm-woman" tattooed on the small of her back. Cute, apart from the nonsensical meaning. A lifetime of icebreakers on the beaches in Asia.

[raro]

Just to get the record straight...the German alphabet has four more Characters than the English alphabet has; the three "Umlaute" ä, ö, ü as well as the double-s "ß". Hope it displays well on your computers...the Double-s is definetely older than the 1945 and its usage has nothing to do with the SS sign of the so-called Schutzstaffel. In fact, there are numerous Geman words spelled correctly with an outspelled "ss" somewhere in the middle.

On the other hand, I can assure you that helmets in Wehrmacht shape sporting the swastika and the Schutzstaffel emblem have nothing to do with Buddhism. Thais seem to know some basic German history, even on remote rice fields I get a friendly "Heil Hitler" once they learn that I am German. Am I offended? No. In most cases they have no clue what it was all about. I also gave up on teaching them what it means as educating the uneducated about things beyond their understanding is somewhat pointless.

[edit: schpellingk - and tried to take some emotion out....]

Edited October 13, 2005 by raro

[sadman]

I get a friendly "Heil Hitler" once they learn that I am German. Am I offended? No. In most cases they have no clue what it was all about. I also gave up on teaching them what it means as educating the uneducated about things beyond their understanding is somewhat pointless.

Good for you, mate. You've (presumably) nothing to feel guilty about, so don't. Let's move on.

[raro]

I get a friendly "Heil Hitler" once they learn that I am German. Am I offended? No. In most cases they have no clue what it was all about. I also gave up on teaching them what it means as educating the uneducated about things beyond their understanding is somewhat pointless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good for you, mate. You've (presumably) nothing to feel guilty about, so don't. Let's move on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly...my parents were just born during WW2 and I somewhat refuse taking the guilt for things that happened in my grandparents' generation - just as the average Cambodian cannot be held responsible for Pol Pot's genocide. Now back to topic.

[AmeriThai]

Although the swastika symbol may have had other origins, its best known for its association with Adolf Hitler and the Nazis of WWII Germany. There’s no question the Holocaust of WWII was atrocious beyond words. While there may be wannabe splinter groups of neo-nazis, skinheads, and white supremists today, the citizens of modern Germany are not responsible for what was done by others in the past.

The OP indicated that a Thai girl he knew claimed to understand the meaning of the swastika, but I have my doubts that it registers as anything more than a fashion statement, much in the same way as Goths, Ravers, etc. If the girl really understood it, then she’d also understand that a goal of Hitler’s Third Reich was to establish a so-called pure Super Race of white, blue-eyed blondes. I don’t think the Thai girl would qualify. Ironically, Hitler himself was no blue-eyed blonde either.

I can understand there are some people who feel very sensitive about such clothing. Still, fashion in and by itself isn't what's important. It's the actions that people should be held accountable for. As for Thais and others wearing Nazi fashion, although they may not realize it, perhaps the last laugh ends up being on the Nazis.

The Last Laugh

[Guest endure]

The majority of Thais are not taught about past wars in Europe. I have seen youngsters working in 7/11 with swastika tattos on their hands, dont really think they paying homage to the nazis, its just a fad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should they be? How many European children are taught Thai history?

[Guest endure]

Although the swastika symbol may have had other origins, its best known for its association with Adolf Hitler and the Nazis of WWII Germany.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The swastika dates back 3000 years. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to assume that its major relevance is only 60 years ago?

[Pablo H]

The majority of Thais are not taught about past wars in Europe. I have seen youngsters working in 7/11 with swastika tattos on their hands, dont really think they paying homage to the nazis, its just a fad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should they be? How many European children are taught Thai history?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said they should be.

[AmeriThai]

Although the swastika symbol may have had other origins, its best known for its association with Adolf Hitler and the Nazis of WWII Germany.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The swastika dates back 3000 years. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to assume that its major relevance is only 60 years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Arrogant? How do you figure that? Perhaps you've jumped to a mistaken conclusion. Please take another look at my post. The first sentence started out saying:

Although the swastika symbol may have had other origins...

I wasn't disagreeing with how old the symbol is. I was talking about what many people today commonly associate the symbol with. Seems to me the context of the post would have shown that. Are you saying that the most people TODAY associate the swastika as it was some 3000 or so years ago?

[ZZZ]

Are you saying that the most people TODAY associate the swastika as it was some 3000 or so years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's found on numerous temples and schools around China, I have even seen it on several temples, schools and Chinese societies’ buildings in other countries like Singapore and Malaysia. I would expect it to be quite common on Indian temples as well.

Given the population and relative lack of education in these countries it's not impossible that most people still associate this symbol with its original.

[AmeriThai]

Are you saying that the most people TODAY associate the swastika as it was some 3000 or so years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's found on numerous temples and schools around China, I have even seen it on several temples, schools and Chinese societies’ buildings in other countries like Singapore and Malaysia. I would expect it to be quite common on Indian temples as well.

Given the population and relative lack of education in these countries it's not impossible that most people still associate this symbol with its original.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds reasonable and you may well be right. Still, the OP stated:

Call me an old fogey but does anyone notice this whole Nazi Swastika culture (if you can call it that) in Thailand?

I walk through Robinson's or the market and they have the SS helmets for your motorbike or T-shirts or whatever.

Regardless of origins or how old the symbol is, the OP was talking about the symbol as it relates to Nazis.

My conclusion (as stated in the last paragraph of my post) is that it's not always accurate to judge people on the basis of fashion, regardless of how distasteful an impression someone might find it, but rather on the basis of their actiions.

Still, fashion in and by itself isn't what's important. It's the actions that people should be held accountable for.

I say "distasteful" because some people feel that it represents Nazis, which was exactly what the OP said. I'm not arguing whether such opinions or impressions of the symbol are accurate or not. Evidently, the OP felt disturbed about it with respect to the popularization of the fashion. Do you see what I'm saying?

[jimbob]

The majority of Thais are not taught about past wars in Europe. I have seen youngsters working in 7/11 with swastika tattos on their hands, dont really think they paying homage to the nazis, its just a fad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should they be? How many European children are taught Thai history?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was taught about what the Japanese did, and the bridge over the river kwai - now where is that located?

Edited October 14, 2005 by jimbob

[mrbojangles]

The majority of Thais are not taught about past wars in Europe. I have seen youngsters working in 7/11 with swastika tattos on their hands, dont really think they paying homage to the nazis, its just a fad.

Why should they be? How many European children are taught Thai history?

I was taught about what the Japanese did, and the bridge over the river kwai - now where is that located?

But if the Bridge on the River Khwai hadn't involved British POW's, would you have been taught about it?

[Guest endure]

I wasn't disagreeing with how old the symbol is. I was talking about what many people today commonly associate the symbol with. Seems to me the context of the post would have shown that. Are you saying that the most people TODAY associate the swastika as it was some 3000 or so years ago?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That depends on which people you're talking about. If you're talking about the billion people who live in India, where the swastika originated and is ubuitous, then yes I am.

[Guest endure]

Ironically the largest volunteer army the world has ever seen (2.5 million) was raised in the Indian subcontinent (the place that the swastika originated) to fight against the Nazis in World War II.

[jimbob]

The majority of Thais are not taught about past wars in Europe. I have seen youngsters working in 7/11 with swastika tattos on their hands, dont really think they paying homage to the nazis, its just a fad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should they be? How many European children are taught Thai history?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was taught about what the Japanese did, and the bridge over the river kwai - now where is that located?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But if the Bridge on the River Khwai hadn't involved British POW's, would you have been taught about it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was taught the scope of WW2, this covered America, Asia, Europe and Africa and was not limited to British POW's.