thai Nationals Only

[Lazy Sod]

Although I don't need a job here, I'm often irritated by Job Classifieds in the media such as the Bangkok Post stating that "Thai Nationals Only" will be considered. Reputable multinational corporations put their name to these classifieds, yet if you read their corporate websites they will often state that their employment policy is not to discriminate based upon an applicant's race, NATIONALITY, ethnic origin, etc.

I can understand if the reason is to reduce costs, but very often this is not the case. I've seen a locally employed Western manager in Hong Kong replaced with an Expat "Chinese American" (he was born in the US and can't speak Chinese) simply because the Company (and the locals) wanted to see someone of Chinese race in the position. In my opinion this is borderline rascism which should be discouraged, however it is being condoned by multinational corporations and local governments throughout Asia.

[jimbob]

It is because non-Thais need work permits. For this they need 4 thai for every work permit. Permits take time and can be expensive. Officially they also need to pay 60,000 baht per month for the person.

[~G~]

Well, I think it is quite obvious that for most jobs in Thailand you'd require -

- 100% control and fluency in Thai. 90% is sometimes just not good enough.

- Understanding of the culture which does not come from "Do and don't do in Thailand" leaflets but rather from being born and raised here.

- Minimal overhead and hassle for the employer such as a work permit.

[steveromagnino]

Perhaps instead of Thai National they could say:

- fluent in written and spoken Thai and holding some sort of legal status that enables the applicant to both work and reside in Thailand for an indefinite period and able to understand and cooperate with Thai people and be an effective manner through whatever means and not likely to show up the office unwashed and smelly, not likely to come to company functions with a partner who appears to come directly from a house of ill repute, not likely to complain about all aspects of Thailand incessantly, not likely to be unable to order own food or food for clients and/or entertain those clients in an appropriate manner.

Yes, I think there is another solution of than the 2 words Thai National! :-)

[~G~]

and/or entertain those clients in an appropriate manner.

You can't expect the average expat executive to know all the karayoke clubs can you?

[The_Moog]

I think it wouldn't be such an issue if the adverts weren't placed in the English language press.

[ovenman]

yet if you read their corporate websites they will often state that their employment policy is not to discriminate based upon an applicant's race, NATIONALITY, ethnic origin, etc.

Using the United States as an example, even if an American company touts itself as a equal opportunity employer, would it be discriminatory for that company to not consider a foreigner for a position if that applicant did not possess the appropriate documentation allowing them to work in the US?

[The_Other_Mac]

Some adverts now say "Thai citizen" and some say "able to legally work in Thailand without work permit". Both of those are (very pointedly) including the tiny number of farangs who have gained Thai citizenship. And the even tinier number of farangs who were legally born in Thailand; luk kreungs born overseas who have "re-acquired" Thai citizenship, etc.

"Thai nationality" might not technically be the correct phrase. If you want to launch a big campaign, you might succeed in convincing them to... change their wording in a way that most people won't see the significance of. Trouble is, hordes of farangs come on holiday, decide they'd like to stay, buy a Bangkok Post and assume that, since it's an English language paper and "no one around here can read English", all those jobs are aimed at English speakers.

[~G~]

"Thai nationality" might not technically be the correct phrase.

What is the difference between "Thai Nationality" and "Thai citizenship"?

[cclub75]

"Thai nationality" might not technically be the correct phrase.

What is the difference between "Thai Nationality" and "Thai citizenship"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point ! And I would add : "leave this stupid politicall correctness at home, we don't need it in Thailand".

[samran]

Funny how little attention you pay to these things at home. It is the same everywhere in the world, you just have to look a bit closer.

Some examples I have seen recently:

- Applicant must have the right to work in the UK and not be subject to immigration control. (most UK government jobs)

- This position requires UK/EU nationality or have the right to work in the UK (most UK and EU private sector jobs)

- To be eligible, you must be an Australian citizen or permanent resident who intends to apply for Australian citizenship (All Australian government jobs)

- You must be an Australian or New Zealand citizen, or be a permanent resident (most Australian private sector jobs).

[Heng]

In other words, the OP is just irritated.

[lomatopo]

The "Thai national" thing doesn't bother me in the least. I am amused at some of the other requirements required; gender-specific, age limitations and even marital status.

Examples: (Bangkok Post 8 October 2005)

Female, age not over 28 years with pleasant personality.

Female, age between 23-35, pleasant personality, self-motivated and aggressive.

[ovenman]

In other words, the OP is just irritated. 

In his own words, even.

PS - What happened to the little guy with the guitar?

[The_Moog]

Samran: in the UK the Thai wife of an EU citizen is allowed to work.

In Thailand, the Farang husband of a Thai woman is not automatically allowed to work - - and support his family, without going through the circus of a work permit.

...and as pointed out some companies that could benefit from foreign expertise aren't able to secure work permits due to their size.

[ovenman]

I am amused at some of the other requirements required; gender-specific, age limitations and even marital status.

These are the sort of requirements that I would think of as discriminatory.

[Buff-horns]

they dont appear to have a long shelf life either. nothing over 35 years and thats OLD !

where does guys over 35 years work ?

[COBBER]

If a company wishes to employ a person of a certain nationality,race,sex or whatever criteria they will do it anyway. Why go through the charade of making it open to all. They would only be wasting everybody's time. Political corectness in overdrive.

[pedro01]

When I post job positions, I ALWAYS put "Thai Nationals only". Of course, anyone that has Thai citizenship would be considered & I'd think they'd probably have the intelligence to apply if they did. If not - I don't suspect I'd be missing much.

I post in jobsdb, The Nation (plus their Thai sister papers) & Bangkok Post because I want Thais with English skills.

I put "Thai Nationals only" because otherwise, I get half a million Indians applying for jobs & a handful of Farangs. Neither of which would be suitable.

The last Farang I interviewed - when I asked him about his history - he came out with "I came to Thailand, fell in love with the country, fell in love with a girl, sold my house & moved out here". I was rather expecting him to give me his career history...

In the UK, companies there advertise without putting UK Nationals only BUT I don't think their intention is to repatriate someone with all the costs/hassle involved. My feeling is that in other countries it's just unecessary to state something that is quite obvious.

So - I don't want the cost of an expat. I want to ensure I can get work permits for expats when I REALLY need one. I know that an expat on a Thai salary will be unsatisfied & jump ship at the sign of more $$$$.

It's just business.

[pedro01]

In other words, the OP is just irritated. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

or unemployed

[The_Other_Mac]

"Thai nationality" might not technically be the correct phrase.

What is the difference between "Thai Nationality" and "Thai citizenship"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buggered if I know.

(There IS a difference in some countries. Not all British nationals are entitled to reside in Britain (something to do with HK).)

[phastmike]

Thailand is quite xenophobic when it comes to working rules. Well, there's the English teacher exception where this rules are reversed, for e.g. a English language native with asian face is not the same as a caucasian, even if he's not an English native and speaks far less English than the previous asian looking guy. I would say that many posters lost their sight when they come to Asia.

Samran, ‘all world’ is not necessarily the commonwealth…

What you would expect from a country where a foreigner cannot buy land, buy a condo in a building if there are already more than 50% apartments sold to foreigners, where you cannot start/own your own business,…

Two, three days ago I saw on a Thai TV channel some girl, whose parents where from Myanmar but living in Thailand for decades, that studied in ABAC (and got her masters degree) but since she is not Thai she cannot get a job, even speaking Thai like, or better, than some natives.

TiT…

[mijan24]

When I post job positions, I ALWAYS put "Thai Nationals only". Of course, anyone that has Thai citizenship would be considered & I'd think they'd probably have the intelligence to apply if they did. If not - I don't suspect I'd be missing much.

I post in jobsdb, The Nation (plus their Thai sister papers) & Bangkok Post because I want Thais with English skills.

I put "Thai Nationals only" because otherwise, I get half a million Indians applying for jobs & a handful of Farangs. Neither of which would be suitable.

The last Farang I interviewed - when I asked him about his history - he came out with "I came to Thailand, fell in love with the country, fell in love with a girl, sold my house & moved out here". I was rather expecting him to give me his career history...

In the UK, companies there advertise without putting UK Nationals only BUT I don't think their intention is to repatriate someone with all the costs/hassle involved. My feeling is that in other countries it's just unecessary to state something that is quite obvious.

So - I don't want the cost of an expat. I want to ensure I can get work permits for expats when I REALLY need one. I know that an expat on a Thai salary will be unsatisfied & jump ship at the sign of more $$$$.

It's just business.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pedro an excellent post agree entirely with 90% of your reasoning - the 10% is debatable but still holds water. Importantly you are the employer paying out the $$ so you have every reason to preclude those you don't want, interviewing for the sake of political correctness is a waste of time and money.

I applaud you for your reason behind advertising in the English language papers a very smart means of sorting the wheat from the chaff. -potential employees to the real world.

Good management with a touch of good luck (often self made) leads to a good business!!

[BkkTechie]

Well...to be fair

I think its still quite possible for someone with the right qualifications to get a Job here in Thailand.

Information Technology is one such area. If you specialise in the right technology, have the right credentials (being able to do websites and bit of HTML does not qualify), there is no lack of jobs in Thailand.

I do understand why Pedro's company is not interested in the half a million indians or farangs, but there are plenty of others who are...

There is an absolute skill shortage as far as IT is concerned in Thailand. Most thais dont have the right kind of experience/skills. The ones who do are few and far between are almost as expensive as the Farangs (thai salary/not expat salary).

I do apply at JobsDb.com/Nation etc and I do recieve 4-5 interview calls during a week after I apply for around 10/15 Jobs.

While some times the person who calls me...never calls me back after finding out that I cannot speak thai or that I am not thai...but many do...

So point of the story is - its certainly possible to get a Job here if you have the right credentials and expectations.

and the same holds true for other countries -

My friend recently got a job in New Zealand...and the company did sponsor his work permit and everything...Just that he specialises on Biztalk, something for which his current employer just could not find the people in NZ.

[samran]

Samran: in the UK the Thai wife of an EU citizen is allowed to work.

In Thailand, the Farang husband of a Thai woman is not automatically allowed to work - - and support his family, without going through the circus of a work permit.

...and as pointed out some companies that could benefit from foreign expertise aren't able to secure work permits due to their size.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair call on the work permit issue for spouses, though I think from a practical day to day perspective, the right to work/work permit issue in Thailand is a red herring. I know too many farangs who are not married to Thai’s, who have off their own bat moved to Thailand to work in a huge range of industries, anything from teachers to lawyers, engineers to senior government policy advisors. I tend to believe that if you have a marketable skill, getting a work permit in Thailand is easier to compared to getting one in say the UK (though some may disagree). The main difficulty for a farang getting a job in Thailand is not that work permits are hard to get, it is that the market for their skills is so small.

My experience as an Australian in the UK (with no automatic work rights) is that trying to get a work permit out of a UK employer is a pain in the buttocks compared with the experience of getting one in Thailand for comparable jobs. Some may disagree, but that is my experience.

Samran, ‘all world’ is not necessarily the commonwealth

I tend to think that approach taken by Thailand at the end of the day has a similar effect to work permit rules anywhere else. Ie. To give preference the local labour market first, especially where the skills are already available and are under utilised.

That I have given examples of Commonwealth countries is neither her nor there. I could have used the example of the US, where I believe it is an absolute hassle trying to get a spouse into the country (the process I have gleaned from others on this site can take more than a year). It is also nigh impossible in getting other work types of work permits where the annual numbers are restricted. In the main the processes, for whatever country we choose, ensure that only genuine, and if applicable, qualified applicants get through.

Again, using my experience in the UK, as opposed to what you may read in The Sun, it is incredibly difficult for a foreigner to get authorisation to work here. Although I have that authorisation, the hoops I had to jump though are quite high, in terms of minimum levels of education, work experience and income history. If I compared that to Thailand, the actual work authorisation process in Thailand is comparatively easier, but finding the actual job (for reasons I outlined earlier) is more difficult.

[mrbojangles]

When I post job positions, I ALWAYS put "Thai Nationals only". Of course, anyone that has Thai citizenship would be considered & I'd think they'd probably have the intelligence to apply if they did. If not - I don't suspect I'd be missing much.

I post in jobsdb, The Nation (plus their Thai sister papers) & Bangkok Post because I want Thais with English skills.

I put "Thai Nationals only" because otherwise, I get half a million Indians applying for jobs & a handful of Farangs. Neither of which would be suitable.

The last Farang I interviewed - when I asked him about his history - he came out with "I came to Thailand, fell in love with the country, fell in love with a girl, sold my house & moved out here". I was rather expecting him to give me his career history...

In the UK, companies there advertise without putting UK Nationals only BUT I don't think their intention is to repatriate someone with all the costs/hassle involved. My feeling is that in other countries it's just unecessary to state something that is quite obvious.

So - I don't want the cost of an expat. I want to ensure I can get work permits for expats when I REALLY need one. I know that an expat on a Thai salary will be unsatisfied & jump ship at the sign of more $$$$.

It's just business.

Pedro an excellent post agree entirely with 90% of your reasoning - the 10% is debatable but still holds water. Importantly you are the employer paying out the $$ so you have every reason to preclude those you don't want, interviewing for the sake of political correctness is a waste of time and money.

I applaud you for your reason behind advertising in the English language papers a very smart means of sorting the wheat from the chaff. -potential employees to the real world.

Good management with a touch of good luck (often self made) leads to a good business!!

I agree 100%. I have also had to think about what i am going to have to say in a Job Ad, to be PC, in the new year. I will be wanting to take on 2 office juniors for my own company, young enough to train in the business i am in. I know what type of person i want already but i certainly won't be able put it in the Ad. I.E no older than 25 etc. Waste of every one's time if you ask me. You should be able to say "Exactly" what it is your looking for.

[Chang_paarp]

Funny how little attention you pay to these things at home. It is the same everywhere in the world, you just have to look a bit closer. 

Some examples I have seen recently:

snip

- To be eligible, you must be an Australian citizen or permanent resident who intends to apply for Australian citizenship (All Australian government jobs)

- You must be an Australian or New Zealand citizen, or be a permanent resident (most Australian private sector jobs).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Oz as with most countries, it is illegal to employ a person who does not have the correct piece of paper. The govt uses "or who intened to apply.." to allow those going through the process the opportunity to apply. Permanent resident is the starting point for most private sector companies who do not want to go through the sponsorship hurdles, unless you want to hire backpackers, max 3 months.

Just like the work permit really, and the Ausie Immi Dept can be even more of a nightmare to deal with that most. They were trained by the Poms and then took their training to a new height due to xenophobia and isolation. Remember the white Australia policy? Some still look whistfully to the past.

Chang

[CaptainIgloo]

in many european countries, nationality or residency is not even mentionned in classified because this requirement is just too obvious. And if by ignorance a foreigner not allowed to work there applies, company will just send their application straight to the bin.

At least here, you know that what classified you should not lose time with. You should actually be happy !

[fxm88]

[in] the United States...would it be discriminatory for [a] company to not consider a foreigner for a position if that applicant did not possess the appropriate documentation allowing them to work in the US?

Yes, it probably would be discriminatory. And it gets more interesting when you consider what counts as "appropriate documentation". Counterfeit documentation is easily obtainable but you're often not allowed to question its authenticity. But even then you're not allowed to see what they've got until interviews are over and you're ready to hire.

In any case, a lot American employers just want to hire people they'll think will be good workers ("good" may be defined to include "cheap") and only ask for the documentation to avoid trouble with Immigrations. In Thailand I gather that most employers believe the restrictions they like to specify (e.g. "...female aged not over 25...") really accomplish something, but whether or not it helps find the best workers is questionable. The same was true in America before the passage of a lot of these laws -- but the 30 or more years since then have been a lesson to a lot of employers. Women still earn less than men for equivalent work so it's not perfect. This article about distinctively black names is interesting.

For more info see Office of Special Counsel for Immigration Related Unfair Employment Practices. Could you imagine Thailand even having such an office? For sure it would be an "inactive post".

Of course, all bets may be off since the passage of the USA PATRIOT act.

[Thaipwriter]

Although I don't need a job here, I'm often irritated by Job Classifieds in the media such as the Bangkok Post stating that "Thai Nationals Only" will be considered. Reputable multinational corporations put their name to these classifieds, yet if you read their corporate websites they will often state that their employment policy is not to discriminate based upon an applicant's race, NATIONALITY, ethnic origin, etc.

I can understand if the reason is to reduce costs, but very often this is not the case. I've seen a locally employed Western manager in Hong Kong replaced with an Expat "Chinese American" (he was born in the US and can't speak Chinese) simply because the Company (and the locals) wanted to see someone of Chinese race in the position. In my opinion this is borderline rascism which should be discouraged, however it is being condoned by multinational corporations and local governments throughout Asia.

Why would a self proclaimed "Lazy Sod" who seems to think that work is a four letter word and wholly admits he does not need a job here be reading the Job Classifieds in the first place?

And then going to check out employment policys on corporate websites?

And then getting "irritated" enough to go to the pc to post about it on here??

yep, it's racist, it's a lot of things.....but most of all it's

Mai bpen rai