Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[jfchandler]

SR, here's the O-A visa requirements listed on the Los Angeles Consulate's web site:

Required documents (*** One original set and 3 sets of copies. Requested documentation 5–7 must be notarized.***)

http://www.thaiconsu...aspx?link_id=48

Seems like the L.A. Consulate staff need to stop listening to The Eagles "Hotel California," and start listening instead to "Take It Easy..."

[jfchandler]

If I were coming from the US I would obtain a single entry non immigrant O visa from an Honorary Consulate (not the retirement O-A) on basis of being age 50 and thinking of retirement. You get a 90 day entry and can then extend for retirement after 60 days.

For others reading here, I'm assuming the direction to deal with one of the Honorary Consulates is that the regular Thai consulates in the U.S. don't/won't issue O visas for just visiting Thailand or "thinking of retirement."

[tropo]

The recommendation of this poster is obtain a non immigrant O visa for entry - to avoid any flight problems or paying for a tourist visa you do not need.

If you can not, or spur of the moment, the option to change/obtain is available for 2,000 baht but previously there was also a 21 days in advance requirement so a border entry of 15 days would not allow and even 30 day entry was cutting it close having to transfer funds if using that method. Recently they have been allowing less time but to me it makes sense to obtain the visa from a Consulate first for most people. Remember there is a 2k cost here (the same as Consulate) and financial proof cost (and may be required twice if office will not do both change and extension on same visit).

Of course entering visa-exempt won't work very well for people who want to use the 800K in bank method, but for those of us who don't have trouble getting onto a flight without a return ticket, it's a great way to go. You can have your one-year visa extension by your 2nd day in Thailand and just relax for the next 15 months.

[JimGant]

For others reading here, I'm assuming the direction to deal with one of the Honorary Consulates is that the regular Thai consulates in the U.S. don't/won't issue O visas for just visiting Thailand or "thinking of retirement."

True. And not all honoraries issue O visas using retirement criteria. Portland in the US, and Hull in Britain, however, are two that do.

Looking at MFA consulate websites in the US (DC, LA, Chicago, NY), none uses the word "retirement" in its criteria for a Non Imm O visa -- only for an O-A, which is the only type of visa they'll issue for retirement purposes.

But if you go to the Thai MFA website, you'll see this:

other activities (Category "O") as follows:

to stay with the family, to perform duties for the state enterprise or social welfare organizations, to stay after retirement for the elderly, to receive medical treatment, to be a sport coach as required by Thai Government, to be a contestant or witness for the judicial process.

This is right from big daddy's mouth, so you'd think the MFA consulates would issue O visas for retirement. But they don't. Instead, honoraries like Hull, who recently got slapped for issuing O visas for 'visiting friends,' do follow the MFA criteria re retirees.

I agree with Lop. Get a Non Imm O from Portland (by mail, anywhere in the US). For in-country conversions, going the Visa exempt method might mean denied boarding, as mentioned. As such, if you were then persuaded to get a tourist visa, the paperwork would be the same as getting an O visa (a no-brainer, for sure). Plus, conversions, more often than not, will mean a second trip to Immigration 60 days after conversion, in order to get the actual extension. And, as seen several times here, this second trip might require another original income letter (the first being used for the conversion).

And, if the conversion is leading to a marriage extension, we've seen that most, if not all Immigration offices, will send you to Bangkok for the conversion (not so for conversions leading to retirement extensions). And getting an O visa is a lot easier to get when married to a Thai vice going to Thailand to retire. So, another definite 'no brainer' for getting an O vs. converting.

[Jingthing]

The recommendation of this poster is obtain a non immigrant O visa for entry - to avoid any flight problems or paying for a tourist visa you do not need.

If you can not, or spur of the moment, the option to change/obtain is available for 2,000 baht but previously there was also a 21 days in advance requirement so a border entry of 15 days would not allow and even 30 day entry was cutting it close having to transfer funds if using that method. Recently they have been allowing less time but to me it makes sense to obtain the visa from a Consulate first for most people. Remember there is a 2k cost here (the same as Consulate) and financial proof cost (and may be required twice if office will not do both change and extension on same visit).

Of course entering visa-exempt won't work very well for people who want to use the 800K in bank method, but for those of us who don't have trouble getting onto a flight without a return ticket, it's a great way to go. You can have your one-year visa extension by your 2nd day in Thailand and just relax for the next 15 months.

Carrying a one way throwaway ticket out within 30 days to somewhere close like Malaysia should almost always work too, though it's possible you'll be challenged.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[JimGant]

Of course entering visa-exempt won't work very well for people who want to use the 800K in bank method,

Why not? Enter Thailand, open a bank account, wire in 800k. Shouldn't take more than a week, assuming you've already set-up wire permissions with your farang bank. Money doesn't need to be seasoned for the conversion. And then, it only needs to be seasoned for 60-days, which, not coincidentally, is the time-frame for returning to Immigration for the extension.

[tropo]

Plus, conversions, more often than not, will mean a second trip to Immigration 60 days after conversion, in order to get the actual extension.

This is a sweeping generalisation which doesn't help people at all.

Better to keep it factual.

I'll start: In Pattaya the conversion is done at the same time as the extension.

Let's hear from other people at other Immigration offices.....

[harrry]

Of course entering visa-exempt won't work very well for people who want to use the 800K in bank method,

Why not? Enter Thailand, open a bank account, wire in 800k. Shouldn't take more than a week, assuming you've already set-up wire permissions with your farang bank. Money doesn't need to be seasoned for the conversion. And then, it only needs to be seasoned for 60-days, which, not coincidentally, is the time-frame for returning to Immigration for the extension.

You oly get 30 days on a no visa entry by air and 15 by land.

[tropo]

Of course entering visa-exempt won't work very well for people who want to use the 800K in bank method,

Why not? Enter Thailand, open a bank account, wire in 800k. Shouldn't take more than a week, assuming you've already set-up wire permissions with your farang bank. Money doesn't need to be seasoned for the conversion. And then, it only needs to be seasoned for 60-days, which, not coincidentally, is the time-frame for returning to Immigration for the extension.

Great! No problems either way.

[jfchandler]

After a B.S. start, it's heartening to see that this thread has ended up providing and clarifying a lot of good and useful Thailand visa information -- totally apart from and unrelated to the original post. Glad I stuck around... And thanks to everybody who's been contributing...

[moe666]

How this topic has changed from more requirements to changing a tourist visa to extension of stay for retirement.

Overall good info and of course the usual misinformation to wade thru

But to sum it up

no change, no change, no change

[tropo]

But to sum it up

no change, no change, no change

There isn't really any other way to sum it up. There is nothing new here.

[JimGant]

You oly get 30 days on a no visa entry by air and 15 by land.

Enough time to open a bank account, wire money, then head for Immigration for conversion. At least if you fly in. By land might also work, if they don't enforce the 21-days remaining rule, which many haven't been doing lately.

[JimGant]

Plus, conversions, more often than not, will mean a second trip to Immigration 60 days after conversion, in order to get the actual extension.

This is a sweeping generalisation which doesn't help people at all.

Better to keep it factual.

I'll start: In Pattaya the conversion is done at the same time as the extension.

Let's hear from other people at other Immigration offices.....

Pattaya has always been a bright spot for doing a same-day conversion plus extension. I remember a chap, WPCOE, reporting this experience at Pattaya a few years back, from a visa exempt entry. He even put out a website on how to go about it. This piqued my interest, as it seemed like a great way to begin one's retirement extension. I've been mentally following this subject ever since.

Then I began to notice that some other seaside Immigration offices (or at least one other) also followed Pattaya's example (can't remember exactly which one, or ones). BUT what really stuck out was that Bangkok -- and seemingly every other Immigration office north of Bangkok -- was doing the conversion -- then making you come back in 60 days for the extension, even if you had an income letter, i.e., unseasoned bank funds weren't an issue. And, relatedly -- at least in Bangkok and in Korat -- this necessitated getting two income letters from your embassy -- one for the conversion, one for the subsequent extension. Two separate folders, two unrelated events, apparently, in their thinking.

Chiang Mai is another one -- my home town -- where I have yet to see a same-day conversion/extension. And, for sure, you won't get a same-day if the extension is based on marriage, as CM, like most others (Pattaya?) sends you to Bangkok for the conversion.

But, you're right -- it is a "sweeping generalization," based on what I recall reading on this forum. So, yeah, it would be nice to hear from others, hopefully indicating that more Immigration offices have begun to copy Pattaya's conversion/extension policy.

However, I'm afraid the policy (written or unwritten, I don't know) that says extensions are to be granted during the last 30 days of your Non Imm 90-day permission of stay, will continue to be followed by most Immigration offices. And that the 90-day permission is by virtue of conversion is irrelevant -- come back in 60 days. Period.

[jfchandler]

Jim, just to be clear.... if someone is trying to go from a visa exempt entry to ultimately a retirement or marriage based extension of stay....

For those offices that don't do the same-day conversion and instead require a 2nd visit 60 days later for the extension, what exactly are they handing out on the initial first visit to cover the applicant? A single entry, 90 day O issued by Thai Immigration?

[rawhod]

Jim, just to be clear.... if someone is trying to go from a visa exempt entry to ultimately a retirement or marriage based extension of stay....

For those offices that don't do the same-day conversion and instead require a 2nd visit 60 days later for the extension, what exactly are they handing out on the initial first visit to cover the applicant? A single entry, 90 day O issued by Thai Immigration?

Correct... A single entry, 90 day O issued by Thai Immigration?

Edited June 25, 2011 by rawhod

[JimGant]

For those offices that don't do the same-day conversion and instead require a 2nd visit 60 days later for the extension, what exactly are they handing out on the initial first visit to cover the applicant? A single entry, 90 day O issued by Thai Immigration?

Yes. MFA allows Immigration to issue a Non Imm visa, with the accompanying 90-day permission of stay stamp. 90-day clock begins day of issue.

And, somehow policy has been that extensions can't be applied for until the last 30 days of a 90-day permission. Policy was normally for folks entering Thailand already with a Non Imm visa. However, with the conversion thingy, Immigration was confronted with another version of the Non Imm visa. Pattaya Immigration, with conversions, dumped the requirement to wait until the last 30 days of stay to do an extension (which leads one to wonder whether or not waiting 'til the last 30 days of stay is written policy...). Other Immigration offices, however, applied this 'last 30 days of stay' to conversions, thus preventing a same-day conversion/extension.

[annabel]

ummm , sorry but not true ... I was required to provide proof of the income I declared (not a pension but other income ) to the Canadian Embassy to get the letter .... for 2009 as well as 2010 ...

Don't know about USA & Australia though

Notable exception are citizens of US, Canada and Australia where no evidence of income is required for issue of embassy income letter, just sworn declaration of income required.

Hmmm why is this still in the rules ? I think it is time to treat every farang the same..

[retiredusn]

ummm , sorry but not true ... I was required to provide proof of the income I declared (not a pension but other income ) to the Canadian Embassy to get the letter .... for 2009 as well as 2010 ...

Don't know about USA & Australia though

Notable exception are citizens of US, Canada and Australia where no evidence of income is required for issue of embassy income letter, just sworn declaration of income required.

Hmmm why is this still in the rules ? I think it is time to treat every farang the same..

This is not a Thai rule for the letter but your embassey requirement, some embassey's just trust there citizens with the statement "Do You affirm this too be true"

[annabel]

Well yes, it makes sense to me... if a Thai person can live on 8,000 Baht a month why does a farang need 65,000 Baht a month ??? Why is 30,000- 35,000 Baht not sufficient / normal ?? To me this is not irrelevant as you say... my sister in Canada has to live on 1,500 $ a month there where the cost of living is 10 times higher than here so why here would she need 2,100 $ a month?? Hey, you are not looking at this correctly ... sorry ! If you think that all of us are impoverished cause we don't have a pension or revenue equivalent to / or more than 2,000 $ a month, then maybe if you are so well off you should consider a more developed country to accomodate your higher needs... Or are you happy living on 10K a month and saving the balance for your extra needs at a later stage? Or maybe you make 10 times that amount and are happy living here cause it's so cheap ..?? And you can save tons of money this way and / or enjoy a much higher social life than you would ever dream of back home ?

As for Farang countries limiting immigrants,.... I think they are doing this to stop illegal immigrants from entering the country on an Assylum Basis and getting unsustantiated government money and support such as, child welfare if they are pregnant, medical welfare and many other social subsidies / benefits to the point where the local farang country people who themselves are in current dire need don't even get that much even if they are begging for it. A lot of people in your so called Farang countries are so upset by the unfairness of the preferred treatment given to these impoverished immigrants and rightfully so ....

As for Farang Countries demanding extravagant amounts of investment to garanti a permanent residence in their country...that has been there for ages .... was even here in Thailand.... Only the amounts of required money have changed over the years but that has not stopped the newer leniency laws towards impoverished and illegal immigrants to continue and improve and offer them more and more benefits that the country's own people can't even get

So where is Thailand's leniency?? And are the farangs living here or most of them living here so impoverished and causing so much financial stress to the financial Thai system to justify their continuous stringent measures.. Please enlightien me

ng for some one to bring up the irrelevant comparison with Thai incomes. Why on earth would the Thai government want to play host to impoverished farangs with incomes of only 8,000 baht a month who would obviously bring in minimal foreign exchange, be unable to pay for medical care when they get sick or for their air ticket home when it's time for them to be repatriated? Farang countries don't issue retirement visas at all and the only way for a retired person to get a long term visa is usually to bring in a sh*t load of money for investment, e.g. this announcement from the British government on 28th March:

"UK Government introduces visa rules to fast-track settlement for high-value investors and entrepreneurs. Foreign entrepreneurs and investors have been given an extra boost today with the announcement that the UK Government has introduced new visa rules that encourage the brightest and the best to locate to the UK. The rules fast-track settlement for high-value investors and entrepreneurs. Under the new rules, those who come to the UK and invest large sums of money will be given the right to settle permanently in the UK faster. Those who invest £5 million will be allowed to settle here after three years and those that invest £10 million or more will be allowed to settle after two. This compares with the minimum five year requirement that is currently in place...."

If I'm not mistaken,£5-10 million is a bit more than the average Brit has in the bank.

[moe666]

Well yes, it makes sense to me... if a Thai person can live on 8,000 Baht a month why does a farang need 65,000 Baht a month ??? Why is 30,000- 35,000 Baht not sufficient / normal ?? To me this is not irrelevant as you say... my sister in Canada has to live on 1,500 $ a month there where the cost of living is 10 times higher than here so why here would she need 2,100 $ a month?? Hey, you are not looking at this correctly ... sorry ! If you think that all of us are impoverished cause we don't have a pension or revenue equivalent to / or more than 2,000 $ a month, then maybe if you are so well off you should consider a more developed country to accomodate your higher needs... Or are you happy living on 10K a month and saving the balance for your extra needs at a later stage? Or maybe you make 10 times that amount and are happy living here cause it's so cheap ..?? And you can save tons of money this way and / or enjoy a much higher social life than you would ever dream of back home ?

As for Farang countries limiting immigrants,.... I think they are doing this to stop illegal immigrants from entering the country on an Assylum Basis and getting unsustantiated government money and support such as, child welfare if they are pregnant, medical welfare and many other social subsidies / benefits to the point where the local farang country people who themselves are in current dire need don't even get that much even if they are begging for it. A lot of people in your so called Farang countries are so upset by the unfairness of the preferred treatment given to these impoverished immigrants and rightfully so ....

As for Farang Countries demanding extravagant amounts of investment to garanti a permanent residence in their country...that has been there for ages .... was even here in Thailand.... Only the amounts of required money have changed over the years but that has not stopped the newer leniency laws towards impoverished and illegal immigrants to continue and improve and offer them more and more benefits that the country's own people can't even get

So where is Thailand's leniency?? And are the farangs living here or most of them living here so impoverished and causing so much financial stress to the financial Thai system to justify their continuous stringent measures.. Please enlightien me

ng for some one to bring up the irrelevant comparison with Thai incomes. Why on earth would the Thai government want to play host to impoverished farangs with incomes of only 8,000 baht a month who would obviously bring in minimal foreign exchange, be unable to pay for medical care when they get sick or for their air ticket home when it's time for them to be repatriated? Farang countries don't issue retirement visas at all and the only way for a retired person to get a long term visa is usually to bring in a sh*t load of money for investment, e.g. this announcement from the British government on 28th March:

"UK Government introduces visa rules to fast-track settlement for high-value investors and entrepreneurs. Foreign entrepreneurs and investors have been given an extra boost today with the announcement that the UK Government has introduced new visa rules that encourage the brightest and the best to locate to the UK. The rules fast-track settlement for high-value investors and entrepreneurs. Under the new rules, those who come to the UK and invest large sums of money will be given the right to settle permanently in the UK faster. Those who invest £5 million will be allowed to settle here after three years and those that invest £10 million or more will be allowed to settle after two. This compares with the minimum five year requirement that is currently in place...."

If I'm not mistaken,£5-10 million is a bit more than the average Brit has in the bank.

Sorry you are a bit late to the party, this has all been discussed adnasuem here the last few weeks. The original thread has now become how to convert a tourist visa into a one year retirement extension of stay

[tropo]

Well yes, it makes sense to me... if a Thai person can live on 8,000 Baht a month why does a farang need 65,000 Baht a month ??? Why is 30,000- 35,000 Baht not sufficient / normal ?? To me this is not irrelevant as you say...

A retiree cannot live on 30 - 35K per month. You'll get by until you need decent medical care, then your budget will be out the window. The older you are, the more you'll have to allow for this.

Seriously, why would Thailand want retirees who can just get by. It's their country, they can set their bar anywhere they please and they are aiming higher than 30 - 35K survivalist. I think it's a fairly smart policy and it has its benefits to other retirees who are happy to live rather than just survive.

[IMA_FARANG]

Well now that a lot of the rhetoric and mindless posting...anger is always a poor substitute for rational thinking, but humans often speak up in anger before they bother to consider what they should say,

and hopefully I will not do that myself here...I will just add this comment.

For some of us, now in the process of retiring in Thailand, with Thai families and their welfare to consider; we have been planning and preparing for years to retire in Thailand,

We have planned the financial resources we needed for that retirement. We may have bought property or a house for our Thai family to live in and upgrded/renovated it for the family to live in and as our planned home when we reached the age of retirement. We knew the rules,and what income we had to show to qualify for a visa retirement extension here in Thailand. So we planned ahead. We met the rules as we knew them to be, and because of that effort we still meet the requirements. Many of us worked all our working lives with that goal in mind.

As I tried to point out in my other post, sometimes the rules change against us. For example, the 65,000 Baht monthly requirement means that for some people who worked and saved money all their lives intending to retire in Thailand on that basis, will discover now that their U.S. Social Security pension will be less than that 65,000 Baht monthly requirement...which is about $2200 at the 30 Baht for one dollar exchange rate...is less than what the Thai government now requires. And our investments, planned for many many years to cover our retirement expenses and our families future may be insufficient due to some factors we can not control are now barely adequate to meet the requirements.

But anyhow, we will continue on and do the best we can. We are those people who are NOT here just for the booze and the "easy women". We are here for our, and most importantly to us, our families welfare. We never expected it to be any other way anyhow.

Edited June 25, 2011 by IMA_FARANG

[moe666]

Unfortunately the exchange rate has hit many people as well as inflation both a double slap.But eventually it will swing back and the baht will lose value and the dollar, pound,euro will regain there strength.

[ajarnmark]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

and it is also totally crazy to assume that an average Thai earns about 8,000 per month. This may be true for the starting wage and we can assume it to be an average wage.

All my friends working in industry or academia earn way much more than the pension of an average farang.

[Mamasun]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

and it is also totally crazy to assume that an average Thai earns about 8,000 per month. This may be true for the starting wage and we can assume it to be an average wage.

All my friends working in industry or academia earn way much more than the pension of an average farang.

Policemen, officers working for guvernemt ,building workers,maids, markets vendors, small shop owners in country, school teachers, small mecanicher shop, rice field workers and other farms workers ! industry ,factory workers..and that's not all ....all this people are the majority in this country and earn less than 20000 bahts the months

Architect ,ingineers ,hight school teachers and doctors are not the majority people...

[moe666]

Now we are taliking about wages heheheh

Nurses in Chiang Mai Ram Hospital make 20,000baht a month, this is a private hospital and these are RNs. The assistants made 12,000 a month.

[jfchandler]

I'd say it's fairly clear that most average Thais could not meet the farang income threshhold that Immigration has set for retirement here... Most of the semi-professional Thai sorts I know -- office workers, government school teachers, non-licensed hospital medical staff -- seem to earn in the 12,000 to 18,000 per month range.

That said, personally, while I understand the argument, I don't find much meaningful relation between the typical monthly income of Thais and what the government chooses to set as the minimum for foreign retirees to stay here. The latter group, myself included, are guests in the country. And the current threshhold is not out-of-reach for the typical western retiree.

[Pattaya46]

Most of the semi-professional Thai sorts I know seem to earn in the 12,000 to 18,000 per month range.

Seems realistic figures.

An article in the BangkokPost this years indicate that the average salary in Bangkok area was a little over 20,000 baht.

BTW Thai people don't have to pay for their health treatments, while we have more and more example of falangs quiting (or fleeing!) hospital with unpaid bill of 100,000 baht or more

[tropo]

Unfortunately the exchange rate has hit many people as well as inflation both a double slap.But eventually it will swing back and the baht will lose value and the dollar, pound,euro will regain there strength.

When I went in to do my extension on Thursday (Chonburi Office) with an "income letter" from the Australian Embassy the officer checking my letter used the USD exchange rate instead of the AUD exchange rate to calculate my monthly income in baht. This resulted in her marking an income of 6,000 baht less than it actually was.

I was still way over so I didn't bother correcting her, but if a person is close to the 65,000 limit it could be a problem.