Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[Estrada]

Slightly o/t,but also relevant I think,can anyone confirm that when it comes to renewal of a Thai Wife Visa,it is acceptable to Immigration to show 400000 Baht in a TIME DEPOSIT ACCOUNT, rather than a SAVINGS ACCOUNT?..both of which I hold with Kasikorn Bank.

Thanks.

They do not accept a time deposit account only a savings account in a Thai Bank or Foreign Bank with a branch recognised in Thailand (HSBC is accepted). Nor do they accept any other form of income even my investments in the Thai Stock Exchange are not accepted. A case of T.I.T. where logic does not come into it, they just follow the letter of the law so even

$1 Million in the Thai stock exchange is not accepted, or dividend income (Thai Immigration Officer Ruling), because it is not on deposit in a Thai Bank according to him (in reality the money is in one form or another in a Thai Bank, but TIT). Income should come from abroad, not Thailand (not accepted as proof of income) and shown coming into the account.

[wpcoe]

Regarding US social security, for my age group, it can be started at age 62, not 65, if chosen.

But if you choose that route, you get the least amount of money per month. In fact if you wait until past age 65, you will get even more per month. True?

That is of course if the fund will still be in existence when many people born in the late 1950's-early 1960's apply for Social Security.

At one time, there was an applet on the Social Security web site that would calculate how long it would take to overall get more money from the system by waiting until 65+ to begin drawing the funds, versus starting to take the lower payment at age 62.

It calculated that I would need to draw the funds until at least age 80 for it to be advantageous to wait. That was a basic calculation on simply how much money was drawn out of the Social Security system, and did not factor in interest that could be accrued on the funds for the first several years if you simply bankrolled them.

Also, Social Security's "full retirement age" is not necessarily 65 -- that only applies for people born in 1937 or earlier. Starting in 1938, there's a sliding scale up until 1960. For folks born 1960 and later, full retirement age is 67. (http://www.ssa.gov/retire2/agereduction.htm)

With Social Security perennially being in play with the handling of US federal deficits, I have *no* confidence it will be available for me at age 62 (I'm 56 now), much less at age 67. </cynicism off>

[ignis]

That is only if your not married to a Thai, if married and support umpteen kids then you need 40,000 baht a month to live here or get a yearly '0' married at KL with 100,000 baht in a Thai Bank..

Are you sure that in this case 100,000 Baht in a Thai bank is enough to qualify for a 1 year non-immigration "O" visa based on Thai wife?

What documents are required?

Is it only possible in Kuala Lumpur? What about Vientiane?

Look in.......... Thailand Forum> Visa & Immigration Forums> Thai visas, residency and work permits

Then the Pinned Topic at the top of all the posts >

Then ..... Latest Reports Of Getting A Visa In The Region..

Then

Kl Success Report Non-O multientry

or Multiple-Entry Non-Immigrant (Marriage) Visa In Kuala Lumpur Report on successful application for visa at KLThai Embassy, May 2011

This is the newest just a few days old will ALL Documents needed + All you need to know to get there......... there are many other Posts all about KL & 1 yr Multi-Entry Marriage Visas

[Penkoprod]

May I respectfully suggest that everybody go back to page one and re-read the OP. As has been mentioned by a few folks throughout the preceding 230+ posts, it could well be (IMHO probably is) that nothing has changed as an Immigrations policy/procedure change.

Those who peruse this forum regularly have seen random reports of some folks who have been asked to produce additional documentation to Immigrations to support their embassy's income letter. Other applicants at the same office, in the same time period, still have their embassy income letters accepted with no additional documentation.

I believe that the OP of this thread simply speculates about those (relatively rare?) episodes. It is not a factual report of a declared change in Immigrations policy/procedure:

"It has been reported that..."

"That position now seems to have changed."

I have posted previously that I suspected that there was some profiling or trigger in such cases that required such additional documentation. Just like purchasing a one-way ticket in cash with no luggage fits a security profile at the airport, I suspect some folks -- probably innocently and perhaps unjustifiably -- trigger a need for more documentation. It could be a subjective "gut feeling" by the Immigrations Officer that something didn't "feel right." Or, it could be a randomness, like at the airport requiring that every 15th person have their carry-on luggage searched.

If Thai Immigration Police make a statement, I'd say things have changed for ALL applicants. But, that hasn't happened yet, has it?

Thats fair enough, and is probably something thats not going to affect the majority of people on retirement type visas

But i think what piqued most peoples interest was the sub heading in the post title (which WOULD HAVE affected most, if not all retirees using the monthly income/part monthly income methods

Proof of transfer of pension into Thailand required

Penkoprod

[Pattaya46]

// it could well be (IMHO probably is) that nothing has changed as an Immigrations policy/procedure change.

I agree with you, and I think the title should be change :

"Proof of transfer of pension into Thailand required" is clearly false news...

but unfortunately is now all over the Internet...

Edit: Ooops. Penkoprod posted the same just before me

Edited June 7, 2011 by Pattaya46

[FarangBuddha]

Further more, thai bank does NOT have to be a Thai bank, just a bank IN Thailand. Personally I use Standard Chartered but any foreign bank with a local office is ok.

Standard Chartered [Thailand], Citibank [Thailand], HSBC [Thailand], et al. are all "Thai" banks. They are incorporated under and regulated by the laws of Thailand. They may be wholly-owned subsidiaries of their respective "home" banks, but for legal and regulatory purposes, they are "Thai."

Edited June 7, 2011 by FarangBuddha

[lopburi3]

.

"US citizens are required to report all bank accounts in excess of $10,000 (300,000 bt) to the US govt yearly ... That is why I, as an American, am not interested in triggering this report. ... It's really no big deal. Just report the account"

Many retirees are on a status where they are not required to file a tax return with the IRS every year-- especially if they're over age 65 and receiving Social Security benefits, which are not taxable.

If you have a foreign bank account with more than the equivalent of US$10,000, you'll need to file an unnecessary yearly tax return just so you can add the form that reports your foreign bank account. Is anyone actually insane enough to want to go through the hassle and expense of filing a frivolous tax return every year, when they would otherwise not be required to do so?

.

Treasury Department TDF 90-22.1 (Rev. March 2011) form has nothing to do with IRS tax returns filing and has its own due date and reporting address.

[elektrified]

Bad luck for the honest people living in LoS and just having an income of less than 65k a month.....thats an rediculous amount....compared to a THAI citizen....guess just

Abhisit makes that much money a month (over the table)

I know several Thais who are making +50k / month doing guide, selling travel tickets, or just doing accounting in an office.

Did you notice all these trucks and big cars?

There is a middle class in Thailand and it is growing very fast.

Now in the USA, thinks are so bad, that most people I know there are not making this money monthly... Soon, Thai will go in vacation in Miami and the poor Americans will beg for money from the so called 3rd world countries...

I know many who are making more than that.

It's already happening.

[lopburi3]

Does the 65k per month income figure change if you have a thai wife and are legally married

No if you want retirement extension of stay. Only if you use the marriage extension of stay provision of 400k/40k.

[Arkady]

oh dear. A bunch of crusty old blokes complaining that they can't scam the system anymore....

That is essentially what this thread will boil down to.

Actually I think you are totally wrong. Plus ageist to boot.

You ignore the core big news of the thread. IMPORTATION of pension as opposed to PROOF of pension.

Interesting point re the remittance of the income to Thailand. It is still not clear whether this news is verifiable or just a rumour billed as "breaking news" on TV. Assuming it is true, it seems logical that they will sooner or later require evidence that the income has been remitted to Thailand on a regular basis for renewals. This will be the same thing that farang embassies do to Thais applying for tourist visas when they demand 6 months' of bank statements, so they can verify that the stated salary is going into the account every month, rather than relying on company letters that can be easily falsified. In any event, the retirees' pensions are of little benefit to the Thai economy, unless they are remitted to Thailand.

The next step will be the Revenue Department to start taxing retirees. Income remitted from abroad within 12 months of arising is taxable in Thailand under the Revenue Code. Then it will be up to the retirees to provide evidence that the pension income they remit to Thailand was warehoused abroad for at least 12 months before coming over or is exempted due to a tax treaty. The Revenue might not always choose to give them the benefit of the doubt. After all they are receiving income in Thailand, well above the minimum for personal income tax, and they are making use of infrastructure (including Immigration officers' time and cost of lighting and aircon in the Immigration office) that has to be paid for by Thai taxpayers. I don't know how many foreign retirees there are in Thailand but, say, 200,000 of them earning B65,000 a month would generate tax revenue of around B1.2 billion a year which is certainly not something to be sneezed at by governments eager to pay for the increasingly burdensome hand outs to poor people they have to promise to get into power.

[JeffreyMcCollum]

Maybe they will do away with the expensive and meaningless letter for those that use the monthly method and just go for the actual proof.

I'm assuming that bank statements indicating receipt of pension are now required, certainly more meaningful than a letter from the embassy.

Maybe Thai Immigration will update their website to show the "new rule".

the expensive and meaningless letter

How right you are. I told Thai Immigration years ago that this Embassy letter was a farce. A person could tell the embassy any amount - even under oat which absolute doesn't mean a thing because a person is allowed to change its mind. Under oat doesn't mean it is poured in concrete. Then when I told them that the letter in question cost a person Fifty Dollar ($50.00) the immigration officer nearly fell of its chair. My suggestion at that time was to have the account statement of the pension being deposited in the bank. A person could bring in several account statements as proof to show it was on a perpetual basis.

If you wait long enough things finally dawn on the Thais. But don't hold your breath while waiting because you will turn blue around the gills.

Wish it was that easy. I don't have a Pension, and won't for 17 more years. Have Thai wife, and support her child. Have work permit and Non B but would like to retire. I rent out my home overseas and get a payment once a year. It is nice and allows us to have cars, trips, nice home and school, So harder to show a montly pension being deposited.

[sbk]

Guy in Phuket posted this morning:

I just got back from Immigration. I was there to do my annual renewal of my Non 0 Retirement extension. It seems the Immigration Dept no longer accepts at face value the notarized letter from the US embassy stating my monthly income. The official looked at it and laughed. I was prepared with copies of bank statements showing regular income deposits from a couple of sources

[thaihome]

.

"I don't know why retired people don't just transfer 800000 baht like I do - it's relatively simple. Surely they can come up with that amount"

One very good reason is because some retirees have their money working for them in investments in foreign countries.

In the USA, for example, the 800,000 Baht required by Thai Immigration is the equivalent about US$26,500 -- If you liquidate enough of your invested money to satisfy the ridiculous Thai requirement, you'll pay income taxes in your home country on that money. If the retiree is in the 20% tax bracket, you'll pay $5300 to your home government for the "privilege" of meeting the Thai income requirement. In addition, if that invested money is earning 5% annually in interest or dividend yield, you forfeit $1325 per year in income, due to being forced to liquidate your investment.

Now, do you understand "why retired people don't just transfer 800000 baht like I do"? -- How would you feel about being forced to pay US$5300 ( 160,000 Baht! ) to transfer your 800K to Thailand?

.

If they are withdrawing 65k baht a month as income aren’t they paying US income already?

Also, by only making one withdrawal a year, instead of the 12 over time, the actual income loss much less is then the entire $1,325 you calculate. Seems to me, that they would actually be gaining some by just taking out the single withdrawal rather then living on the interest income each month.

TH

[newtronbom]

Another fact that nobody has mentioned here, is the difficulty in opening a Thai bank account here in the first place for a Foreigner. Most banks ask for a work permit and some just refuse. We all know there are a few who will do it - I know now of 2 in Sukumvit that will - but none in my area just outside the city would let me open an account without a work permit. What is "the legal policy" for a foreigner to open a bank account? Why make it so hard to open an account on one hand, then on the other, ask to see proof of earnings in a "Thai Bank" that you shouldn't have? Am I wrong?

[SurfRider]

.

"If they are withdrawing 65k baht a month as income aren't they paying US income already?"

No, not necessarily - First of all, there's no requirement to actually bring 65K into Thailand - only to have the CAPABILITY and available funds to do so. Many retirees here can live on much less.

A retiree from the USA receiving full Social Security benefits, plus additional income, can have up to US$25,000 in income per year without having any tax obligation or requirement to file a tax return.

The $1,325 represents a 5% yield on $26,500 -- Regardless of how much or how often you cash your investments in and bring money into Thailand - it's still 5% - or a multiple of the $1,325 figure that your forfeiting. There's no advantage to a single yearly withdrawal -- 5% is still 5%, no matter how you slice it.

.

Edited June 7, 2011 by SurfRider

[kdc1899]

.

"No big deal. Anyone who has zero income except SS and has no assests ... is not going to be able to live in Thailand ... The medical won't work here"

Who said anything about zero income, no assets, and medical coverage?

A retiree can have substantial income, over and above SS and still have no requirement to file. Many factors, such as type of income, deductions, exemptions, charitable contributions, etc., factor into the equation. You clearly know very little about the IRS filing requirements and are wandering far off-topic.

.

Dude;

If your talking about yourself then just say that you are a one in a million exception. Stop projecting.

Any American who's making 65K baht per month via SS is someone who absolutely has other sources of income that require a yearly tax return. Absolutely.

You clearly know not much about the reporting foreign bank accounts thang. Got nothing to do with the I.R.S.

Either way and even if it did.

No big thing

Anyone who has not lied under oath to an embassy official has no issue here.

[Superpeis]

Maybe they will do away with the expensive and meaningless letter for those that use the monthly method and just go for the actual proof.

I'm assuming that bank statements indicating receipt of pension are now required, certainly more meaningful than a letter from the embassy.

Maybe Thai Immigration will update their website to show the "new rule".

Time to move to the Philippines!

[granuaile]

I have to ask, has anyone had any experience to verify this in the past weeks?

[sendbaht]

It's totally crazy that the average Thai earns about 8000 baht a month, but they expect farangs to have pension incomes of 65,000 baht a month to live there.

if not for rules like this every old farang and his dog would be there. there defending there culture. as frustrating and strict as they are sometimes i can understand why they do it

DITTO!!!!!!!!! Post of the year!!!!!!!!

[Just1Voice]

Call me crazy if you want, but I'm actually happy to see them do away with the "Income Verification" from the U.S. Consulate. That actually saves me money by not having to get it any more. hahaha.

I have 100% VA disability and 100% S.S. disability. However, my S.S. is cut to 50% because I get 100% from the VA. Either way, no problem, as they put me well over the 65k requirement. I'm married to a Thai. We have 1 son. He's 26, and I legally adopted him, and he legally changed his last name to mine, about a year ago. I use Bangkok Bank for Direct Deposits of both VA and SS and have never had a problem. The only "stipulations" are that my direct deposit account can ONLY be in my name, no ATM card, and no internet banking. I was told by my friendly branch manager that these stipulations were from the U.S. Government, NOT Bangkok bank, as a "safety" net to keep the account owner from being ripped off by his Thai wife/family. Ok, so once a month I have to show up in person, do a transfer from my account to the joint account, and that's it. I asked one time what would happen if I were sick, or injured, and in the hospital, and couldn't come to the bank. He said "No problem!" My wife goes to the bank, tells them, they send someone from the bank with the Withdrawal/Deposit slips filled out and I simply sign them.

[wpcoe]

Call me crazy if you want, but I'm actually happy to see them do away with the "Income Verification" from the U.S. Consulate. That actually saves me money by not having to get it any more. hahaha.

Where did you see that they are doing away with the income verification letter?

[tropo]

I have to ask, has anyone had any experience to verify this in the past weeks?

It's a brand new report. What happened yesterday is irrelevant.

[lopburi3]

The requirement is an Embassy letter if using pension and that has not changed. Additional items may be asked but the letter is essential.

As for direct deposit of US Government pension in Bangkok Bank the stipulation is to protect the bank and US Government as any funds remitted after your death must be returned to government.

[tropo]

Call me crazy if you want, but I'm actually happy to see them do away with the "Income Verification" from the U.S. Consulate. That actually saves me money by not having to get it any more. hahaha.

Where did you see that they are doing away with the income verification letter?

Clearly a case of wishful thinking.

[tesco1]

"the Immigration Bureau has asked to see proof of at least two months of pension income."

So what does that mean?

two months pension income received somewhere?

two months pension income transferred into a Thai bank?

transferred in within what time period?

What if income is not pension income but investment income? To be treated the same way?

pension income or at least 65.000 Baht per month?

does it mean that only pension and not other income

[jimbeam1]

I think this part of the headline is misleading:

Proof of transfer of pension into Thailand required

Unless something has changed beyond what's mentioned in the OP, retirees are not required to bring their income INTO Thailand.... That's only a requirement when using the 800,000 baht Thai bank deposits method to satisfy the income test. It's NOT a requirement if one is using the 65,000 baht per month of income to satisfy the income test.

So what the post is saying is, Thai immigration will ask for documents showing proof of your monthly income as stated in the consulate letter... proof that you really have that income.... not proof that you've somehow transferred it into Thailand.

And, when they talk about pension amounts as part of the retirement extensions issue, it's pension or other income of all the various sources.... There never has been a rule that says all of the 65,000 baht per month to meet the income test must come from pension sources... It can come from any sources... But now, apparently, you'll have to show evidence that the income is real.

That is how I see it. So no big problem really.

jb1

[softgeorge]

Another fact that nobody has mentioned here, is the difficulty in opening a Thai bank account here in the first place for a Foreigner. Most banks ask for a work permit and some just refuse. We all know there are a few who will do it - I know now of 2 in Sukumvit that will - but none in my area just outside the city would let me open an account without a work permit. What is "the legal policy" for a foreigner to open a bank account? Why make it so hard to open an account on one hand, then on the other, ask to see proof of earnings in a "Thai Bank" that you shouldn't have? Am I wrong?

I just walked in off the street opened an account no problems at all (SCB)

[Just1Voice]

Call me crazy if you want, but I'm actually happy to see them do away with the "Income Verification" from the U.S. Consulate. That actually saves me money by not having to get it any more. hahaha.

Where did you see that they are doing away with the income verification letter?

Perhaps I got "lost in translation" somewhere, but if Immigration is no longer accepting that, that would mean they are "doing away with it". But, if they are still requiring that, WITH substantiated proof, oh well, so it goes. Personally, I wish they WOULD do away with the letter and change things to provide PROOF of income. But that's just my personal opinion.

[jimbeam1]

Another fact that nobody has mentioned here, is the difficulty in opening a Thai bank account here in the first place for a Foreigner. Most banks ask for a work permit and some just refuse. We all know there are a few who will do it - I know now of 2 in Sukumvit that will - but none in my area just outside the city would let me open an account without a work permit. What is "the legal policy" for a foreigner to open a bank account? Why make it so hard to open an account on one hand, then on the other, ask to see proof of earnings in a "Thai Bank" that you shouldn't have? Am I wrong?

It is actually very easy to open a bank account in Thailand. All you need is a Thai address, if you don't have one go in with a Thai and use their address plus your passport and around a 1,000bt. That will give you a current acc + ATM card. No problem.

jb1

[true blue]

Bad luck for the honest people living in LoS and just having an income of less than 65k a month.....thats an rediculous amount....compared to a THAI citizen....guess just

Abhisit makes that much money a month (over the table)

I know several Thais who are making +50k / month doing guide, selling travel tickets, or just doing accounting in an office.

Did you notice all these trucks and big cars?

There is a middle class in Thailand and it is growing very fast.

Now in the USA, thinks are so bad, that most people I know there are not making this money monthly... Soon, Thai will go in vacation in Miami and the poor Americans will beg for money from the so called 3rd world countries...

I know many who are making more than that.

It's already happening.

my wife recieved 400000 bht last year from her fruit crop on her little farm,and her uncle made over a million bht from his harvest last year.