All You Need To Know....

[fabianfred]

This Sutta scares you to death at the thought of falling to the lower realms.....

http://watsriboenruang.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/balapandita-sutta-discourse-on-the-fools-and-the-wise-mn-129/

This Sutta tells you how to practice so as to avoid them.... by attaining Stream-entry

http://watsriboenruang.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/mindfulness-immersed-in-the-body-majjhima-nikaya-119-kayagata-sati-sutta/

[fabianfred]

I would like to find Thai versions of these Suttas. Does anyone know if there are any sites with such?

To link Thai people to and also print out and read to students being taught the Dhamma.

[camerata]

Thanks, Fred. I've often seen the story of the turtle used to illustrate how hard it is for anyone to be reborn as a human, but it's clear the Buddha is talking specifically about an evil-doer in the lower realms being reborn in the human realm:

Just as if, monks, a person were to throw a yoke with one hole into the ocean and the easterly wind would carry that yoke away to the westerly direction, the westerly wind would carry that yoke away to the easterly direction, the northerly wind would carry it away to the south and the southerly wind would carry it away to the north and there would be a blind tortoise that would come up to the surface once in a hundred years. What do you think, monks ?, Could that blind tortoise put his neck into that single hole of the yoke?”

“Lord, even if it could once in a way it would be only after the lapse of a long time !”

I say, monks, sooner indeed could that blind tortoise put his neck into the single hole of the yoke, than could a fool who has fallen into the lower worlds once be reborn as a human being.

[fabianfred]

Yes...I originally heard it as a simile for how difficult to be born human, then later like this about escaping the lower realms.

...and after reading this sutta how can people still say that the Buddha was only speaking metaphorically and did not refer to real physical realms.... fooling themselves i think....choosing to deny what they feel uncomfortable with...

[rockyysdt]

Yes...I originally heard it as a simile for how difficult to be born human, then later like this about escaping the lower realms.

...and after reading this sutta how can people still say that the Buddha was only speaking metaphorically and did not refer to real physical realms.... fooling themselves i think....choosing to deny what they feel uncomfortable with...

This is an extremely tough one Fred.

I have spoken to Buddhist of two minds regarding re birth.

Ajahn Buddhadasa and his contemporaries believe that re birth is a cycle of äction, sensory contact, awareness, reaction, cessation.

All this occurs in an extremely small part of a second and is followed by further such cycles.

The beginning of such a cycle is the birth, followed by the end which is the death.

They are so fast but are independent events as are frames of a movie reel.

So imperceptible is the speed between frames that an illusion of consciousness, I, ego, self, soul, spirit occurs.

A pillar of the Buddhas teachings is that there is no soul, spirit, l, self, ego and that there is nothing inside which endures.

It is taught that clinging to the notion of physical re birth (many lives, past and future) causes one to anchor oneself to ego, and further reduces ones endevor to become enlightened in this lifetime with the illusion of stream entry taking the momentum off ones practice..

Around the time of the Buddha the notion of reincarnation and re birth had already emerged and was popular amongst the Brahhmans and learned ones.

A possibility is that it was easy for the Buddhas desciples to add this interpretation into the Suttas.

If Monks taught people that there is nothing inside which is enduring, and that they only had one life then alms bowls would go empty and charity in the form of money, goods and labor would dry up.

It could very easily be interpreted that placing ones head through the yoke, in a vast ocean represents finding and following the path or correct way.

Having fallen into lower worlds can very easily be interpreted as living ones life in an inhuman way (mental not physical) .

If you look at our physical world, it is filled with monsters, demons, and many who are inhumane by deed and thought.

They are these things by action and thought , not by physical or outer form.

Being re born as a human can refer to awakening your heart and capacity for loving kindness. Tobe be human by deed and thought.

This occurs in the present, not the future or the past and is awakened by practicing Dhamma now.

[fabianfred]

Moment to moment change.....continual arising and passing away of all phenomena is an essential thing to grasp by experiential wisdom from practice of Vipassana....without which we will not know the truth of Annatta.

Physical rebirth in different realms is so logical. All nature works in cycles...our own is birth, old age & death followed by rebirth.

The Buddha so often taught about other realms and past and future lives, why should we doubt him? Is our ego so great we think we can re-interpret his teachings and know better than him?

When we choose to become Buddhists we place our trust in him and his Dhamma....called taking refuge...so if we refuse to believe him we are poor followers.

You say this 'might' have been the case...or that 'could' be true...etc. To me placing your life in such fragile beliefs......I would rather go for the Buddha's own version rather than unprovable theories of thinkers.

Reincarnation existed as a belief long before the Buddha's time....but rebirth is exclusive to the teachings of Buddhas....too profound for anyone else to realise.

[rockyysdt]

The Buddha himself taught not to believe but to experience for yourself.

I can experience the truth of impermanence through the practice of anapanasiti.

I can experience many things, but how can I experience the truth of stream entry.

Why haven't those who remember past lives only remember human ones.

Why can't they remember their time as Gods or Hungry Wolves?

How can I find out for myself, short of enlightenment in this life?

Pali is a very ancient language.

Translation from the original canon into English misses much subtlety of meaning and nuance.

Re Birth is one such word.

Where in the Pali Canon does it refer to Re Birth of "physical" life and how does this relate to our impermanence (no soul)?

Even if "physical"rebirth were so, isn't it highly egotistical that Rocky will be re born.

Moment to moment change.....continual arising and passing away of all phenomena is an essential thing to grasp by experiential wisdom from practice of Vipassana....without which we will not know the truth of Annatta.

Physical rebirth in different realms is so logical. All nature works in cycles...our own is birth, old age & death followed by rebirth.

The Buddha so often taught about other realms and past and future lives, why should we doubt him? Is our ego so great we think we can re-interpret his teachings and know better than him?

When we choose to become Buddhists we place our trust in him and his Dhamma....called taking refuge...so if we refuse to believe him we are poor followers.

You say this 'might' have been the case...or that 'could' be true...etc. To me placing your life in such fragile beliefs......I would rather go for the Buddha's own version rather than unprovable theories of thinkers.

Reincarnation existed as a belief long before the Buddha's time....but rebirth is exclusive to the teachings of Buddhas....too profound for anyone else to realise.

[rockyysdt]

The Buddha himself taught not to believe but to experience for yourself.

I can experience the truth of impermanence through the practice of anapanasiti.

I can experience many things, but how can I experience the truth of stream entry?

Why haven't those who remember past lives only remember human ones?

Why can't they remember their time as Gods or Hungry Wolves?

How can I find out for myself, short of enlightenment in this life?

I know you speak sincerely as you believe, but how can I be egotistical if I don't cling to egocentric belief?

Pali is a very ancient language.

Translation from the original canon into English misses many subtleties of meaning and nuance.

Re Birth is one such word.

When you read the canon how can you be sure you are reading the Buddhas original message?

Where in the Pali Canon does it refer to Re Birth of "physical" life and how does this relate to our impermanence (no soul)?

Even if "physical"rebirth were so, isn't it highly egotistical that Rocky will be re born?

Rocky is impermanent. There is nothing inside including a soul, spirit, I or self.

The unfortunate thing about re birth which tries to get around reincarnation is that what is re born is not me therefore why should I be concerned? This is because until we are enlightened both Rocky and FabianFred are our l's"and will not endure. Our consciousness is not real as it is an illusion giving us the impression of soul/spirit.

Why is physical rebirth in different realms so logical?

Logic cannot be used, but given our impermanence it is more logical that re birth as you describe is a misinterpretation.

Nature does work in cycles but to believe that our own is birth, old age & death is followed by rebirth of us (self or ego, or soul) contradicts the Buddhas pillar of impermanence.

Yes I am saddled as a thinker.

Didn't the Buddha prefer thinkers to believers as he preferred that we learn for ourselves?

Isn't all that is wrong in our world due to believers?

Moment to moment change.....continual arising and passing away of all phenomena is an essential thing to grasp by experiential wisdom from practice of Vipassana....without which we will not know the truth of Annatta.

Physical rebirth in different realms is so logical. All nature works in cycles...our own is birth, old age & death followed by rebirth.

The Buddha so often taught about other realms and past and future lives, why should we doubt him? Is our ego so great we think we can re-interpret his teachings and know better than him?

When we choose to become Buddhists we place our trust in him and his Dhamma....called taking refuge...so if we refuse to believe him we are poor followers.

You say this 'might' have been the case...or that 'could' be true...etc. To me placing your life in such fragile beliefs......I would rather go for the Buddha's own version rather than unprovable theories of thinkers.

Reincarnation existed as a belief long before the Buddha's time....but rebirth is exclusive to the teachings of Buddhas....too profound for anyone else to realise.

[fabianfred]

I do not mean that when we are reborn it is the same us, the same me.

I do not believe in no-self, but non-self or not-self. For me this means that the self is not permanent, but constantly changing.

I am not the same person I was when a boy of ten.....there have been physical changes, in fact every cell in my body has renewed many times..... I have gained knowledge and hopefully wisdom......I have experienced many things..... I have used up karma and created new karma...etc.

So, there is little similarity between me now and that ten year old boy....but there is a subtle continuity...linking me to that boy....and him to the new-born child....and that child to a form in it's previous existence....the mind-moments when it left one existence and dying passed onto a new existence.

This is my understanding of non-self.....not that there is no-self at all....just nothing permanent and unchanging.

I could of course be completely wrong....we all try to understand a very deep and profound teaching in a way we can handle. :jap: