Size Does Matter

[MoonRiverOasis]

In this interesting debate, which seems to boil down to 'big' (pick-up) vs. 'small' (f.i. Nissan March) it seems reasonable to assume a luxury car like Accord, Camry or even Teana would be the best option? Much more safety featuress, better roadhandling, and more mass.

The short answer is yes - the D-segment saloon will always come out of an accident better off than the same crash-rated compact.

There's a number of factors at play - but the single biggest factor is driver ability. Lack of ability (or impared ability) is still the single biggest contributor in most road accidents. Someone with above average driving skills will fare better each an every time they're faced with a potential accident situtaion - regardless fo whether they're driving a 600kg micro or a 40-ton articulated vehicle.

For everyone else, the most important safety features are stability control, ABS and traction control systems. For anything other than perhaps a micro, add torque vectoring to the list.

When it comes to the crunch, it's all about the ability of the car to absorb or deflect impact energy away from the occupants. For this there are crash tests to provide us with indicative, relative performance indicators. However, all official crash ratings are based on single vehicle tests, so are not directly comparable between vehicle classes - i.e. a 5-star micro has demontsrated an excellent ability to absorb/deflect impact energy from it's own 600-1000kg weight. A 5-star SUV has likewise demonstrated it's ability to do the same, only now with the intertia of 1800-2500kg of weight behind it.

When involved in a single vehicle accident of the same nature, both of these 5-star rated vehicles will perform comparably. However, when the two meet, there's a severe mismatch - now the 5-star micro has to not only disspate the impact energy of it's own weight, it also now needs to disspate additional impact energy from the heavier vehicle. By the same token, the heavier vehicle experiences less impact force than it would have in a similar single vehicle accident. The difference can be dramatic - even at normal road speeds, this mismatch can quite literally stack the deck in favor of the larger car quite remarkably (i.e. a 90km/hr combined speed impact with a micro might provide simlar a impact experience as just a 30-40km/hr impact for the SUV).

So yes, size does matter.

[Presto]

In this interesting debate, which seems to boil down to 'big' (pick-up) vs. 'small' (f.i. Nissan March) it seems reasonable to assume a luxury car like Accord, Camry or even Teana would be the best option? Much more safety featuress, better roadhandling, and more mass.

The short answer is yes - the D-segment saloon will always come out of an accident better off than the same crash-rated compact.

There's a number of factors at play - but the single biggest factor is driver ability. Lack of ability (or impared ability) is still the single biggest contributor in most road accidents. Someone with above average driving skills will fare better each an every time they're faced with a potential accident situtaion - regardless fo whether they're driving a 600kg micro or a 40-ton articulated vehicle.

For everyone else, the most important safety features are stability control, ABS and traction control systems. For anything other than perhaps a micro, add torque vectoring to the list.

When it comes to the crunch, it's all about the ability of the car to absorb or deflect impact energy away from the occupants. For this there are crash tests to provide us with indicative, relative performance indicators. However, all official crash ratings are based on single vehicle tests, so are not directly comparable between vehicle classes - i.e. a 5-star micro has demontsrated an excellent ability to absorb/deflect impact energy from it's own 600-1000kg weight. A 5-star SUV has likewise demonstrated it's ability to do the same, only now with the intertia of 1800-2500kg of weight behind it.

When involved in a single vehicle accident of the same nature, both of these 5-star rated vehicles will perform comparably. However, when the two meet, there's a severe mismatch - now the 5-star micro has to not only disspate the impact energy of it's own weight, it also now needs to disspate additional impact energy from the heavier vehicle. By the same token, the heavier vehicle experiences less impact force than it would have in a similar single vehicle accident. The difference can be dramatic - even at normal road speeds, this mismatch can quite literally stack the deck in favor of the larger car quite remarkably (i.e. a 90km/hr combined speed impact with a micro might provide simlar a impact experience as just a 30-40km/hr impact for the SUV).

So yes, size does matter.

Well in my past 30 years of driving (albeit not in LOS) I've had 2 accidents, both being rear ended by someone not paying attention or fiddling with the cassette player in those stop-and-go situations. speed in both cases ca. 30 to 40 kph for the guy behind me, not fast, but severe damage all the same. For me personally no problems, I was in Audi 80 and Volvo 850T5, and those were really good cars. Builds conffidence. Am not sure a D Max, Navara, Triton or whatever will do the same.

[MoonRiverOasis]

Am not sure a D Max, Navara, Triton or whatever will do the same.

That all depends on how well engineered the respective truck is when it comes to crash safety - you can't just bundle them all up together because they're pickups.. Example: the Isuzu D-Max, Chev Colorado, Ford Ranger (outgoing model), Mazda BT-50 (outgoing model) and the Nissan Navara are all 3-star rated vehicles, but the Mitsubishi Triton and Toyota Hilux are 4-stars - giving them about the same occupant crash safety as the two vehicles you've quoted.

The VW Amarok, which has a very similar form factor, similar weight, and the same body on frame construction gets 5-stars - it's all about the engineering.

Edited July 3, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[wandrinstar]

ABS has caused as many accidents as its saved here.The Goons just drive faster,thinking they have an extra lucky charm.Ive got all those Gizmoes at the flick of a switch,but they come into play once in a Blue Moon if you dont drive like a Yob. At night in the Mountains i flick the things off to slide about a bit, just to feel in conroll.I hate abs anyway.

[Presto]

ABS has caused as many accidents as its saved here.The Goons just drive faster,thinking they have an extra lucky charm.Ive got all those Gizmoes at the flick of a switch,but they come into play once in a Blue Moon if you dont drive like a Yob. At night in the Mountains i flick the things off to slide about a bit, just to feel in conroll.I hate abs anyway.

Well, being neither a goon nor a yob(bo), I like ABS, just for me and the others in my car. Saved me once already.

[MoonRiverOasis]

hi - my error, not here to provoke an argument!

Wasn't going to happen - there's just a couple of us here which are somewhat pragmatic

Anyway, I was looking for this the other day but couldn't find then - it should help with the debate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GySSKPz3oR8

Oops, looks like that one's been taken down.

NM, here it is again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu95gB04VC4

[Kwasaki]

KKBum - you amaze me - now I take it that you are questioning the motorcycle fatality figures.

It occurs to me that your posts are revealing too and say quite a lot about yourself. It appears that rather than study the plethora of evidence available both physics and stats, you prefer to resort to personal anecdotal evidence and cherry-picking a few stats that you mistakenly believe support your preconceived ideas (not theories) which have been conceived using partially comprehended schoolboy science coupled with a limited ability for reading comprehension

A few hundred years ago common sense told us the world was flat. ....but with a bit of lateral thinking by a few guys who learned to actually test what we were seeing the march of scientific knowledge began and are understanding of the world around us is based on scientific enquiry and it's meticulous interpretation. Some people were inevitably left by the wayside and it would appear that some of them are posting here.

You probably don't realise it,but you have not addressed a single facet of my primary or core arguments and your conclusion is nothing more than simple gainsaying - which really makes discussing it pointless as if I was talking about the price of apples and you're talking about the color of the sky

You remind me of the people who work in the department for health and safety in the building trade, I only have one thing to thank them for, there lack of common sense and there stupidity, help me make up mind to retire early.

[transam]

KKBum - you amaze me - now I take it that you are questioning the motorcycle fatality figures.

It occurs to me that your posts are revealing too and say quite a lot about yourself. It appears that rather than study the plethora of evidence available both physics and stats, you prefer to resort to personal anecdotal evidence and cherry-picking a few stats that you mistakenly believe support your preconceived ideas (not theories) which have been conceived using partially comprehended schoolboy science coupled with a limited ability for reading comprehension

A few hundred years ago common sense told us the world was flat. ....but with a bit of lateral thinking by a few guys who learned to actually test what we were seeing the march of scientific knowledge began and are understanding of the world around us is based on scientific enquiry and it's meticulous interpretation. Some people were inevitably left by the wayside and it would appear that some of them are posting here.

You probably don't realise it,but you have not addressed a single facet of my primary or core arguments and your conclusion is nothing more than simple gainsaying - which really makes discussing it pointless as if I was talking about the price of apples and you're talking about the color of the sky

You remind me of the people who work in the department for health and safety in the building trade, I only have one thing to thank them for, there lack of common sense and there stupidity, help me make up mind to retire early.

+1, agree.

[katabeachbum]

In this interesting debate, which seems to boil down to 'big' (pick-up) vs. 'small' (f.i. Nissan March) it seems reasonable to assume a luxury car like Accord, Camry or even Teana would be the best option? Much more safety featuress, better roadhandling, and more mass.

large cars, not pickups/suv, handle, brake and steer better than most TH pu/suv, and thus have better active safety. If the driver is able to use these abilities, accidents can more easily be avoided. Ad well developed ESC, and car goes where driver wants. Driver still has to choose where to go tho. If all occupants are belted and no loose objects in cabin, chance of survival in accident is good. In TH market, interior is also better designed/equipped than most pu/suv to protect occupants.

In 2007 and 2008 I had to drive at TH Highways like 60k km a year. I chose Camry 2,4 one year, and Accord 2,4 following year. Fine cars, easy to control at high speed, I usually disconnect ESC the initial 5 hours while I am very alert, and then connect last 1-3 hours when ESC can do a better job than me .

but when shit actually happens, the mass and height of a well equipped pu/suv does have advantages

BTW, what are the single most important things YOU in a car can do to survive

1. Go to toilet before leaving and every 2 hours. Broke UB kills

2. No loose objects in cabin. Drinks in holders, and use cans and pet plastic, no glass

3. Make sure belt is over hips, not crossing stumach, and tighten it every 10 minutes, and ask everyone else to be belted.

4. Adjust headrest to fit your height

5. Talk with driver only when she/he can spare focus for you

[wandrinstar]

ABS has caused as many accidents as its saved here.The Goons just drive faster,thinking they have an extra lucky charm.Ive got all those Gizmoes at the flick of a switch,but they come into play once in a Blue Moon if you dont drive like a Yob. At night in the Mountains i flick the things off to slide about a bit, just to feel in conroll.I hate abs anyway.

Well, being neither a goon nor a yob(bo), I like ABS, just for me and the others in my car. Saved me once already.

[wandrinstar]

ABS has caused as many accidents as its saved here.The Goons just drive faster,thinking they have an extra lucky charm.Ive got all those Gizmoes at the flick of a switch,but they come into play once in a Blue Moon if you dont drive like a Yob. At night in the Mountains i flick the things off to slide about a bit, just to feel in conroll.I hate abs anyway.

Well, being neither a goon nor a yob(bo), I like ABS, just for me and the others in my car. Saved me once already.

No one said you were, i refer to the Average Thai Fortuna/Truck Type driver. K.B. in his post sums up my attitude towards Computer Aids, and i do the same.If you substitute Range Rover, and Honda Accord and and 80K per year Klicks,his Post could be mine, i have done this for 17 Years here, i have only hit Dogs luckily. Whats more the Abs never came into play,the Dogs are faster than my reactions. I can site occasions when Abs has done me no favors,but generally they are useful for the Family Motorist. My point is if you use these Aid to increase your speeds,you are back on the Vehicles Limits again,they are designed to enhance safety, but often abused by the Boy RacerTypes these days.

[Histavia]

KKBum - you amaze me - now I take it that you are questioning the motorcycle fatality figures.

It occurs to me that your posts are revealing too and say quite a lot about yourself. It appears that rather than study the plethora of evidence available both physics and stats, you prefer to resort to personal anecdotal evidence and cherry-picking a few stats that you mistakenly believe support your preconceived ideas (not theories) which have been conceived using partially comprehended schoolboy science coupled with a limited ability for reading comprehension

A few hundred years ago common sense told us the world was flat. ....but with a bit of lateral thinking by a few guys who learned to actually test what we were seeing the march of scientific knowledge began and are understanding of the world around us is based on scientific enquiry and it's meticulous interpretation. Some people were inevitably left by the wayside and it would appear that some of them are posting here.

You probably don't realise it,but you have not addressed a single facet of my primary or core arguments and your conclusion is nothing more than simple gainsaying - which really makes discussing it pointless as if I was talking about the price of apples and you're talking about the color of the sky

You remind me of the people who work in the department for health and safety in the building trade, I only have one thing to thank them for, there lack of common sense and there stupidity, help me make up mind to retire early.

Whereas I’m pleased to hear that you are no longer endangering the lives of your fellow workmates and that health and safety had a hand in that, you do realise that probably for the same reasons you “retired" from the construction industry, you have failed to show that you have any understanding of the points I was making let alone mount any argument against them.

[transam]

KKBum - you amaze me - now I take it that you are questioning the motorcycle fatality figures.

It occurs to me that your posts are revealing too and say quite a lot about yourself. It appears that rather than study the plethora of evidence available both physics and stats, you prefer to resort to personal anecdotal evidence and cherry-picking a few stats that you mistakenly believe support your preconceived ideas (not theories) which have been conceived using partially comprehended schoolboy science coupled with a limited ability for reading comprehension

A few hundred years ago common sense told us the world was flat. ....but with a bit of lateral thinking by a few guys who learned to actually test what we were seeing the march of scientific knowledge began and are understanding of the world around us is based on scientific enquiry and it's meticulous interpretation. Some people were inevitably left by the wayside and it would appear that some of them are posting here.

You probably don't realise it,but you have not addressed a single facet of my primary or core arguments and your conclusion is nothing more than simple gainsaying - which really makes discussing it pointless as if I was talking about the price of apples and you're talking about the color of the sky

You remind me of the people who work in the department for health and safety in the building trade, I only have one thing to thank them for, there lack of common sense and there stupidity, help me make up mind to retire early.

Whereas I'm pleased to hear that you are no longer endangering the lives of your fellow workmates and that health and safety had a hand in that, you do realise that probably for the same reasons you "retired" from the construction industry, you have failed to show that you have any understanding of the points I was making let alone mount any argument against them.

What a load of <deleted>. It's folk like you that have made it illegal to change a plug on an appliance or do ANYTHING in the UK. Ban everything.

[wandrinstar]

Are most Ferangs here Ex Builders, they seem to love Trucks.

[Histavia]

KKBum - you amaze me - now I take it that you are questioning the motorcycle fatality figures.

It occurs to me that your posts are revealing too and say quite a lot about yourself. It appears that rather than study the plethora of evidence available both physics and stats, you prefer to resort to personal anecdotal evidence and cherry-picking a few stats that you mistakenly believe support your preconceived ideas (not theories) which have been conceived using partially comprehended schoolboy science coupled with a limited ability for reading comprehension

A few hundred years ago common sense told us the world was flat. ....but with a bit of lateral thinking by a few guys who learned to actually test what we were seeing the march of scientific knowledge began and are understanding of the world around us is based on scientific enquiry and it's meticulous interpretation. Some people were inevitably left by the wayside and it would appear that some of them are posting here.

You probably don't realise it,but you have not addressed a single facet of my primary or core arguments and your conclusion is nothing more than simple gainsaying - which really makes discussing it pointless as if I was talking about the price of apples and you're talking about the color of the sky

You remind me of the people who work in the department for health and safety in the building trade, I only have one thing to thank them for, there lack of common sense and there stupidity, help me make up mind to retire early.

Whereas I'm pleased to hear that you are no longer endangering the lives of your fellow workmates and that health and safety had a hand in that, you do realise that probably for the same reasons you "retired" from the construction industry, you have failed to show that you have any understanding of the points I was making let alone mount any argument against them.

What a load of <deleted>. It's folk like you that have made it illegal to change a plug on an appliance or do ANYTHING in the UK. Ban everything.

still waiting for a valid argument - I'm getting more and more convinced that it won't be forthcoming from this poster. You really haven't understood a word. Can you tell me where I suggested banning anything and why or are you too busy stereotyping to see the world as it really is?

[katabeachbum]

still waiting for a valid argument - I'm getting more and more convinced that it won't be forthcoming from this poster. You really haven't understood a word. Can you tell me where I suggested banning anything and why or are you too busy stereotyping to see the world as it really is?

as you sendt all bikers to the grave in a previous post in this topic, there is none left to argue with you :lol:

off to the market, on my bike

[transam]

still waiting for a valid argument - I'm getting more and more convinced that it won't be forthcoming from this poster. You really haven't understood a word. Can you tell me where I suggested banning anything and why or are you too busy stereotyping to see the world as it really is?

as you sendt all bikers to the grave in a previous post in this topic, there is none left to argue with you :lol:

off to the market, on my bike

Dee ma, me, have a beer and let ''some'' stew.

[wandrinstar]

still waiting for a valid argument - I'm getting more and more convinced that it won't be forthcoming from this poster. You really haven't understood a word. Can you tell me where I suggested banning anything and why or are you too busy stereotyping to see the world as it really is?

as you sendt all bikers to the grave in a previous post in this topic, there is none left to argue with you :lol:

off to the market, on my bike

Dee ma, me, have a beer and let ''some'' stew.

Are you 2 on drugs,what a weird reply.Histavia does have some good points.From his name . An Ex Trabant Driver ,hence a vast knowledge of hi performance driving

[Histavia]

TA - I love your post - it in it you make 2 wildly flawed postulations that perfectly encapsulate the standard of reasoning that has permeated this thread. I can't imagine a better coda to the whole thing.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Histavia

[katabeachbum]

"With a bike there is usually an opening to avoid a crash" - -if there is an opening it is usually to a grave

Seems to me this was the reasoning making the thread go in a different direction

[MoonRiverOasis]

TA - I love your post - it in it you make 2 wildly flawed postulations that perfectly encapsulate the standard of reasoning that has permeated this thread. I can't imagine a better coda to the whole thing.

If you stopped trying to come across as Shakespeare's "A long winded diatribe on automobile crash safety based on purely subjective reasoning", and just laid down some concise and actual facts, without resorting to personal attacks, some people might actually participate in your debate argument..

[transam]

TA - I love your post - it in it you make 2 wildly flawed postulations that perfectly encapsulate the standard of reasoning that has permeated this thread. I can't imagine a better coda to the whole thing.

Can you rewrite your post in layman English so "I" can understand.