The Election Is Over But The Hatred Remains; Thai Opinion

[pastitche]

The big problem is that there are more "Have Nots" than "Haves" in Thailand. As long as that perceived gap exists, the poor majority will support anyone who delivers anything that resembles a better situation than they are now experiencing. If the rich want to stay in power, they will have to give up something or risk losing it all. Unfortunately, the rich and powerful want to not only hold on to it all, but want more.

Looking at recent history, the revolutions in Russia, China, Cuba, etc. resulted when the majority of the populace was poor and believed they had nothing to lose by joining the revolution. Their target was easy to identify and attack. America has prevented this problem by keeping its poorest citizens fat and lazy with food handouts and access to over a hundred cable channels. They might not be that happy, but they now have something that they don't want to lose. They have also convinced the majority that there is a chance for them to enter the higher echelon of society, not realizing that it is nothing but a glass ceiling.

The point is, that as long as there is hope that one can become part of the ruling class, there will be a strong resistance to destroy the regime. Without that hope, expect chaos...lots of chaos.

Does that mean that there are no "Have Nots" in the south?

Why do you ask? There is no mention in jaltsc's post of either north or south

[whybother]

The big problem is that there are more "Have Nots" than "Haves" in Thailand. As long as that perceived gap exists, the poor majority will support anyone who delivers anything that resembles a better situation than they are now experiencing. If the rich want to stay in power, they will have to give up something or risk losing it all. Unfortunately, the rich and powerful want to not only hold on to it all, but want more.

Looking at recent history, the revolutions in Russia, China, Cuba, etc. resulted when the majority of the populace was poor and believed they had nothing to lose by joining the revolution. Their target was easy to identify and attack. America has prevented this problem by keeping its poorest citizens fat and lazy with food handouts and access to over a hundred cable channels. They might not be that happy, but they now have something that they don't want to lose. They have also convinced the majority that there is a chance for them to enter the higher echelon of society, not realizing that it is nothing but a glass ceiling.

The point is, that as long as there is hope that one can become part of the ruling class, there will be a strong resistance to destroy the regime. Without that hope, expect chaos...lots of chaos.

Does that mean that there are no "Have Nots" in the south?

Why do you ask? There is no mention in jaltsc's post of either north or south

A majority of the people of the south supported the Democrats and a majority of the people of the north supported PTP.

So the "Have nots" in the south are supporting the "rich and powerful".

[hyperdimension]

The fact of the matter is that once the PTP finance minister gets a look at the books he or she will soon see that Thailand ddoes not have the funds in the Treasury to support anything extra

Assuming that Olarn(?) is competent in finance and economics, he probably already knew long before the end of the election campaign that the promises were not realistically feasible. But he would have also known that the immediate priority was just to get as many votes as possible from the naive masses.

and that finance minister will have the difficult task of explaining that to the public.

So is it Ok during an election campaign to make big promises that are highly attractive to the masses, and then after the goal of winning the election is achieved, renege on many of those promises?

Companies who advertise or market their products falsely or deceptively can be punished by law. So how about political parties who deceive the public in order to win an election?

[hammered]

The fact of the matter is that once the PTP finance minister gets a look at the books he or she will soon see that Thailand ddoes not have the funds in the Treasury to support anything extra

Assuming that Olarn(?) is competent in finance and economics, he probably already knew long before the end of the election campaign that the promises were not realistically feasible. But he would have also known that the immediate priority was just to get as many votes as possible from the naive masses.

and that finance minister will have the difficult task of explaining that to the public.

So is it Ok during an election campaign to make big promises that are highly attractive to the masses, and then after the goal of winning the election is achieved, renege on many of those promises?

Companies who advertise or market their products falsely or deceptively can be punished by law. So how about political parties who deceive the public in order to win an election?

According to the rumours Banharn wants two of finance, commerce, transport. Hopefully PTP will hang strong and not give them as having all the economic portfolios in one party hands is very important for economic policy as the Dems found to their annoyance.

Olarn (and lets assume Banharn wont get finance) did clarify before the election that the 300 baht daily pay was only for "skilled" workers and that the one tab per kid was only for kids starting P1. Whether anyone heard and understood this is moot. It will no doubt have to be explained away as coalition horse trading if these things arent to be universal as many people seem to think. So maybe Banharns boys and girls get finance after all

[clinique]

The fact of the matter is that once the PTP finance minister gets a look at the books he or she will soon see that Thailand ddoes not have the funds in the Treasury to support anything extra

Assuming that Olarn(?) is competent in finance and economics, he probably already knew long before the end of the election campaign that the promises were not realistically feasible. But he would have also known that the immediate priority was just to get as many votes as possible from the naive masses.

and that finance minister will have the difficult task of explaining that to the public.

So is it Ok during an election campaign to make big promises that are highly attractive to the masses, and then after the goal of winning the election is achieved, renege on many of those promises?

Companies who advertise or market their products falsely or deceptively can be punished by law. So how about political parties who deceive the public in order to win an election?

I would say no. But maybe we should ask Tony Blair and Gordon Brown !

[Somnambulist]

Well, the folks down here in the South cannot abide the man or his clone Sister, but to be honest, surely I am the same as almost every expat here, it does not affect me or you one iota. I really dislike him, but it has no affect on my daily life. The truth is the Sister has won but now the party is back in power, he will be calling all the shots. However, if he really is going to get the dollar back at 40 baht then bring it on, I am sure the expats could do with a few years break and an increase in effective spending power. I am also sure most of us will not turn our nose up at a 30% hike in exchange rate.

So Taksin promises to corrode the value of the baht faster than the U.S. is destroying the dollar and you think that's a good thing.

[Somnambulist]

A wonderful day !!!!

The corruption of the events of 2006 is put right yet again.

TRT/PPP/PTP have now won every election for what is fast approaching 20 years. Everyone remember how corrupt the Democrats were back before TRT and Thaksin rose to power.

Having lived through Democrat corruption and the rise to power of TRT and then its downfall at the hands of the military and the elite invisible hand - I can assure you TRT and Thaksin is far better than anything else Thailand has seen and its why the people CONTINUALLY vote for them.

The excuses of the only reason Thaksin won is because TRT was in power are blown away, they have won when the military where in control and against then and now won when the Democrats/BJT were in control and against them.

A wonderful day for Thailand. The Thai people in the majority have shown who they support, and well done to them for YET AGAIN choosing the TRT/PPP/PTP and rejecting the others.

And TRT/PPP (perhaps also PTP) have been disqualified from every victory, from vote buying. After Thaksin was booted out with a coup it became possible to put him on trial and reveal the full extent of his corruption, I urge the new government to look for similar corruption from the Democrats in the recent govt.

And don't kid yourself that it's all about numbers, because without the 20 million in Isarn willing to sell their vote or easily bamboozled with handouts, Thaksin would never have even made it past the first election.

Standard excuse from losers.

In 2007 the military attempted to make sure minimal vote buying by any party. Result PPP won.

In 2011 the military/Democrats/BJT/Multicolours all tried to make sure minimal vote buying by PTP and it seems IGNORE all other parties vote buying. Result PTP won.

Vote buying is not something that TRT/Thaksin invented. It is standard practice by all. And TRT/PPP/PTP have shown they can win without it.

After the 2006 coup the top judiciary was changed by the military and then the very same military appointed judiciary and the military appointed panels to investigate Thaksin SURPRISE found the man they kicked out guilty, which then justified to themselves their action and justified their AMNESTY they gave themselves.

Corruption - the Thai people continue to vote against the biggest corruption. Its just the corrupt cannot accept the result and keep trying to nullify it.

Well stated, and how lame does one have to be anyway to believe that there is any substance to vote buying, especially in Thailand were a contract is just a pause in negotiation? Money may change hands but votes cannot be bought. All that is bought is a promise. There is no guarantee what happens to any promises once one is inside the voting booth. This is why any actions predicated on vote buying, such as removal from office or dismantling of a party, are mere examples of selective enforcement of vague laws set up to be selectively enforced.

You are so naive. These days voters who have taken money must photograph their ballot with their mobile phone and show it to the thugs waiting outside. People have been killed for failing to produce the proper photo.

[cdnvic]

You are so naive. These days voters who have taken money must photograph their ballot with their mobile phone and show it to the thugs waiting outside. People have been killed for failing to produce the proper photo.

First of all, don't call people that. Secondly, produce some credible evidence for your claims.

[anterian]

I guess we will have to get used to the taste of the sour grapes that so many members are offering us. Even in defeat they persist in their myopic view of events, perhaps the Thai people can move on but it seems some farangs never will.

[geriatrickid]

The fact of the matter is that once the PTP finance minister gets a look at the books he or she will soon see that Thailand ddoes not have the funds in the Treasury to support anything extra

Assuming that Olarn(?) is competent in finance and economics, he probably already knew long before the end of the election campaign that the promises were not realistically feasible. But he would have also known that the immediate priority was just to get as many votes as possible from the naive masses.

and that finance minister will have the difficult task of explaining that to the public.

So is it Ok during an election campaign to make big promises that are highly attractive to the masses, and then after the goal of winning the election is achieved, renege on many of those promises?

Companies who advertise or market their products falsely or deceptively can be punished by law. So how about political parties who deceive the public in order to win an election?

The recent precedent was in Canada. When the Liberal government was elected, it inherited bloated deficits from the Reagonomic devotee Conservative government. Under the finance minister, Paul Martin, Canada slashed its deficit Mr. Martin eventually became PM. When the Liberal government was voted out, it left a legacy of balanced budgets, budget surpluses, a path to lower taxes and a sound banking system. At the recent G8 meetings, Canada was the only country with a stable economy and sound banking system free of failures and mortgage crises. The Liberals had promised all sorts of programs but soon abandoned that strategy once the dire condition of the nation's finances were realized. The turnaround is now studied in several universities as a case study for success in public administration. Personally, I don't think the PTP will be able to do the same, but it will be interesting to see if they try or speak to the people on the issue. As a side note, the Liberals were voted out in large part to a perceived corruption scandal. Sort of a similarity to Thailand there.

Edited July 4, 2011 by geriatrickid

[LevelHead]

You are so naive. These days voters who have taken money must photograph their ballot with their mobile phone and show it to the thugs waiting outside. People have been killed for failing to produce the proper photo.

First of all, don't call people that. Secondly, produce some credible evidence for your claims.

Well said !!

2006 was the year the "mobile phone pic" fad came in. And nobody got killed for it.

It was a new way of doing things.

No money before hand.

Money afterwards if you proved by a mobile phone pic that you voted for them.

And all parties did it - not just one - ALL OF THEM.

Some of these people never lived under the prior 2001 Democrat rampant corruption did they ? Before TRT came to power the Democrats put the country massively into debt and their government fell over rampant corruption the likes of which were never seen again until 2009 and 2010.....

[Egalite]

Reconciliation is not an option in this stage.

First the vested powers (business and military elite and the top bureaucracy) must be hold accountable for their attempts (coups and arbitrary use of the judiciary) to break the will (election results) of the majority of the Thai population in the last 10 years.

The only way to break their power once and for all is to imprison them all for life, nationalise their business assets and redistribute their wealth (largely stolen) among the population from whom it was stolen. The crimes they commited call for the strongest measures to be taken.

There can not be any thought of reconciliation knowing the past with coups against the will of the majority expressed in 10 years of electoral votes. If the Peua Thai does not break the vested powers its just a mater of time before the next military junta is installed.

I truly hope the new Thai government, approved of by the majority of Thai voters (this seems so painfull for many TV members) will clean the house called Thailand. And cleaning in this respect also mean expulsion of the many unwanted elements among the foreigners currently residing in Thailand. The elements calling Thai people (mainly Isanese) lazy, drunk, incapable of voting must be trown out, they deserve no place in the country they reside in. And I think they will be trown out in time, stricter visa rules are long overdue.

Let this not be the end (it won't) but the beginning of a long road ahead towards more equality in Thai society.

Egalite

Edited July 4, 2011 by Egalite

[ballpoint]

... Some of these people never lived under the prior 2001 Democrat rampant corruption did they ? Before TRT came to power the Democrats put the country massively into debt and their government fell over rampant corruption the likes of which were never seen again until 2009 and 2010.....

It's quite amusing that the red supporters still feel threatened enough to have to continue posting their outrageous rubbish to try and justify their position.

[Jingthing]

Interesting. Seeing more trucks of PTP and reds on motos driving in convoys in the streets of Pattaya today and screaming through their bullhorns, scaring the soi dogs and children, and making elders soil themselves, hopefully they can afford diapers. What's that all about? Are they still not happy enough to have won? I suspect we will see street actions of reds pushing Yingluck to bring their dear leader back ASAP. Yingluck is going to be getting it from all sides (not a sex joke) and I predict her honeymoon will be very short.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[Egalite]

... Some of these people never lived under the prior 2001 Democrat rampant corruption did they ? Before TRT came to power the Democrats put the country massively into debt and their government fell over rampant corruption the likes of which were never seen again until 2009 and 2010.....

It's quite amusing that the red supporters still feel threatened enough to have to continue posting their outrageous rubbish to try and justify their position.

Ballpoint, if you don't know what your talking about its most wise to be silent and to educate yourself first. If you are among those silly foreigners that actually believe Thaksin invented Thai corruption and some vote buying its best to leave this country with your tail between your legs.

So tired of those 'i know Thailand because I visited Pattaya' foreigners, yawn.

[ballpoint]

... Some of these people never lived under the prior 2001 Democrat rampant corruption did they ? Before TRT came to power the Democrats put the country massively into debt and their government fell over rampant corruption the likes of which were never seen again until 2009 and 2010.....

It's quite amusing that the red supporters still feel threatened enough to have to continue posting their outrageous rubbish to try and justify their position.

Ballpoint, if you don't know what your talking about its most wise to be silent and to educate yourself first. If you are among those silly foreigners that actually believe Thaksin invented Thai corruption and some vote buying its best to leave this country with your tail between your legs.

So tired of those 'i know Thailand because I visited Pattaya' foreigners, yawn.

Why not tell us what happened then? If you agree with LevelHead then you must feel as threatened as he is for some reason. Certainly threatened enough to make threats to other posters.

1996 election, NAP led the government after getting more seats, but less votes, than the Democrats.

1997, gross mismanagement by Chavalit and his team, in part contributing to the Asian economic crisis, sees the Democrats take charge under Chuan. The Democrats implement IMF policies, stabilise the economy and repair the damage.

2001, Thaksin's TRT buys out the NAP, forms a coalition government, takes advantage of the policies put in place by the Democrats and a growing global economy. Thaksin is later found by the courts, and the evidence is freely available, to have stolen billions from the Thai people.

And what a weak, pathetic statement the one about Thaksin not inventing Thai corruption is. I suppose it's alright for someone to go around murdering for fun, after all, they didn't invent it, and others have killed far more in the past? Until the rich and powerful, and that includes Thaksin and his family, are held responsible for their actions, any talk of equality and progress for the poor is hollow.

Edited July 4, 2011 by ballpoint

[Jingthing]

Reconciliation is not an option in this stage.

First the vested powers (business and military elite and the top bureaucracy) must be hold accountable for their attempts (coups and arbitrary use of the judiciary) to break the will (election results) of the majority of the Thai population in the last 10 years.

The only way to break their power once and for all is to imprison them all for life, nationalise their business assets and redistribute their wealth (largely stolen) among the population from whom it was stolen. The crimes they commited call for the strongest measures to be taken.

There can not be any thought of reconciliation knowing the past with coups against the will of the majority expressed in 10 years of electoral votes. If the Peua Thai does not break the vested powers its just a mater of time before the next military junta is installed.

I truly hope the new Thai government, approved of by the majority of Thai voters (this seems so painfull for many TV members) will clean the house called Thailand. And cleaning in this respect also mean expulsion of the many unwanted elements among the foreigners currently residing in Thailand. The elements calling Thai people (mainly Isanese) lazy, drunk, incapable of voting must be trown out, they deserve no place in the country they reside in. And I think they will be trown out in time, stricter visa rules are long overdue.

Let this not be the end (it won't) but the beginning of a long road ahead towards more equality in Thai society.

Egalite

Impressively radical! Are you a communist? It's OK if you are, that's a valid point of view, which brought us some wonderful things in the world, like STALIN murdering more people than Hitler, like MAO, also a mass murderer and don't forget his thrilling "cultural revolution" where experienced doctors were sent to work in the muddy fields, while schoolkids became surgeons, and let us not forger POL POT and his killing fields of "intellectuals" or anyone wearing glasses or who read a book, Thailand's neighbor, bloody bloody bloody. Sir, that's what your path would lead to, a river of blood.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[Old Man River]

... Some of these people never lived under the prior 2001 Democrat rampant corruption did they ? Before TRT came to power the Democrats put the country massively into debt and their government fell over rampant corruption the likes of which were never seen again until 2009 and 2010.....

It's quite amusing that the red supporters still feel threatened enough to have to continue posting their outrageous rubbish to try and justify their position.

Thanks. I was going to answer this, but you beat me to it.

For the record, the Thai government took the IMF's USD 17.2 billon loan on August 11, 1997. The Democrats took over a collapsed government and inherited the debt in November 1997. They turned the country around by 2001.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Reconciliation is not an option in this stage.

First the vested powers (business and military elite and the top bureaucracy) must be hold accountable for their attempts (coups and arbitrary use of the judiciary) to break the will (election results) of the majority of the Thai population in the last 10 years.

The only way to break their power once and for all is to imprison them all for life, nationalise their business assets and redistribute their wealth (largely stolen) among the population from whom it was stolen. The crimes they commited call for the strongest measures to be taken.

There can not be any thought of reconciliation knowing the past with coups against the will of the majority expressed in 10 years of electoral votes. If the Peua Thai does not break the vested powers its just a mater of time before the next military junta is installed.

I truly hope the new Thai government, approved of by the majority of Thai voters (this seems so painfull for many TV members) will clean the house called Thailand. And cleaning in this respect also mean expulsion of the many unwanted elements among the foreigners currently residing in Thailand. The elements calling Thai people (mainly Isanese) lazy, drunk, incapable of voting must be trown out, they deserve no place in the country they reside in. And I think they will be trown out in time, stricter visa rules are long overdue.

Let this not be the end (it won't) but the beginning of a long road ahead towards more equality in Thai society.

Egalite

Impressively radical! Are you a communist?

Yeah.. I'm almost pleasantly surprised there are people to be found with even more extremist views than mine.

And it's nice because it balances out some of the right-wing hatred of some people (also on this forum) who are actively calling for a coup.

Serious reply: TRT/Thaksin ALREADY TRIED to break/remould the military in his favor. We all know how well that worked out for him, and for Thailand. I honestly don't think this is in the cards right now.

Edited July 4, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[LevelHead]

... Some of these people never lived under the prior 2001 Democrat rampant corruption did they ? Before TRT came to power the Democrats put the country massively into debt and their government fell over rampant corruption the likes of which were never seen again until 2009 and 2010.....

It's quite amusing that the red supporters still feel threatened enough to have to continue posting their outrageous rubbish to try and justify their position.

Ballpoint, if you don't know what your talking about its most wise to be silent and to educate yourself first. If you are among those silly foreigners that actually believe Thaksin invented Thai corruption and some vote buying its best to leave this country with your tail between your legs.

So tired of those 'i know Thailand because I visited Pattaya' foreigners, yawn.

Why not tell us what happened then? If you agree with LevelHead then you must feel as threatened as he is for some reason. Certainly threatened enough to make threats to other posters.

1996 election, NAP led the government after getting more seats, but less votes, than the Democrats.

1997, gross mismanagement by Chavalit and his team, in part contributing to the Asian economic crisis, sees the Democrats take charge under Chuan. The Democrats implement IMF policies, stabilise the economy and repair the damage.

2001, Thaksin's TRT buys out the NAP, forms a coalition government, takes advantage of the policies put in place by the Democrats and a growing global economy. Thaksin is later found by the courts, and the evidence is freely available, to have stolen billions from the Thai people.

And what a weak, pathetic statement the one about Thaksin not inventing Thai corruption is. I suppose it's alright for someone to go around murdering for fun, after all, they didn't invent it, and others have killed far more in the past? Until the rich and powerful, and that includes Thaksin and his family, are held responsible for their actions, any talk of equality and progress for the poor is hollow.

Democrats before 2001.. good guys ??.... LOL

Transparency International is an independent organisation who do a yearly “Corruptions Perception Index” (CPI).

The higher the CPI the LESS corrupt a country is meant to be.

10 is the perfect score and would suggest no corruption whatsoever and the lower the CPI the more corrupt.

So, let us take a look at what Transparency International’s actual figures for their yearly surveys of Thailand say.

In 2000, when the Democrats were still in power, Thailand’s CPI was 3.2.

By 2003 under TRT, the CPI had gone up to 3.3. (Yes it was rising so less corrupt)

Then, there is another increase in the CPI in 2004 to 3.6. (Rising again, less corrupt again)

Then, on 18 October 2005, Transparency International released its survey for 2005 and yes you guessed it, the CPI had then increased to 3.8.

Getting even less corrupt.

And this is not far away from when the Military held a coup due to "corruption".

Maybe its frankly that certain people were getting starved of their corruption money and drug money and decided it was time to get rid of Thaksin and TRT so high levels of corruption and drugs could return as the normal to Thai life.

[LevelHead]

Who paid back the IMF loan ?

And paid it back early and ahead of schedule ?

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-a-2002-08-26-11-Thailand-67436262.html?moddate=2002-08-26

Well done Thaksin, for sorting out the Democrat mess and reducing corruption after the Democrats were in power.

[dobadoy]

Despite all the right words coming out of Dubai, I can't see why Thaksin doesn't just turn up at Suvarnabhumi tomorrow morning.

Who would dare arrest him now, given that PT is riding high on a wave of victory? The army might spit and kick, but they know their intervention would never be tolerated at this point. Wait six months though, and people will think the army might be right to stop him coming back.

If I was a gambling man, I'd have money on him being back much sooner rather than later...

[SIAMBULL]

Wouldn't "reconciliation" involved we Farangs accepting the election results and hoping Yingluck et al do good things for Thailand?

TV please reconcile yourselves to the democratic process. The Thai people have spoken.

[lovelomsak]

Reconciliation can never come as long as Thaksin is pulling the strings and that is the bottom line. Allowing Thaksin to run another puppet government does nothing but move Thailand backwards. I could care less if an actual Thaksin clone won the election but at some point all Thais have to realize that having Thaksin in anyway running the show is bad for all Thais in the long run. If Thaksin cared even one ounce about the Thai people he would have handled his life as fugitive very differently.

Reading your post reminds of Aphisits statement "Us or Chaos" I thought it was an idle threat and your post is evidence to me it was a threat, with people in the mind set you have.The Dem need more people like you to bring the chaos .. In a thread about reconciliation you immediately bring in chaos.

[whybother]

I guess we will have to get used to the taste of the sour grapes that so many members are offering us. Even in defeat they persist in their myopic view of events, perhaps the Thai people can move on but it seems some farangs never will.

Why should our views change just because the PTP got a majority? That doesn't change the facts of what happened in the past.

[astanhope]

Please post the links to these articles when you post them - and copy their content. It is only fair to The Nation.

[Theoutsider]

the title sound like a good summary of thai visa news fourm.

The Election Is Over But The Hatred Remains

Edited July 4, 2011 by Theoutsider

[Jingthing]

Wouldn't "reconciliation" involved we Farangs accepting the election results and hoping Yingluck et al do good things for Thailand?

TV please reconcile yourselves to the democratic process. The Thai people have spoken.

But the question remains, how many years or DECADES until the Thai people get the chance to remove what is now looking to become an authoritarian THAKSIN family DYNASTY? Please don't be fooled by the bright lights, the pretty face, the white teeth, the vapid smile ...

Edited July 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[metisdead]

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[thepanom]

Reconciliation can never come as long as Thaksin is pulling the strings and that is the bottom line. Allowing Thaksin to run another puppet government does nothing but move Thailand backwards. I could care less if an actual Thaksin clone won the election but at some point all Thais have to realize that having Thaksin in anyway running the show is bad for all Thais in the long run. If Thaksin cared even one ounce about the Thai people he would have handled his life as fugitive very differently.

Spot-on, this one!

As usual, Thaksin is using his wealth and intelligence

to further his own personal interests- at the expense of

Thailand's warm-hearted unity. HE, in my opinion, has

created (and financed,) the majority of the animosity

now so prevelant throughout Thailand. Please, for the sake of

Thai society, don't continue to allow him to divide Thai

society in order to further his meglomaniac ambitions.

Thank you, it is exactly what you say, but does all this poor farmers who took his money understand this ???????????????