India Health Minister Comes Out As Anti-Gay Bigot

[Jingthing]

Not very surprising, but important as India has such a huge population.

India's health minister has derided homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West, drawing fire Tuesday from activists who said the comments set back the country's campaigns for gay rights and its fight against HIV.

The comments Monday by Health Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad at a conference on HIV/AIDS in the Indian capital echoed a common refrain in the conservative country that homosexuality is a Western import.

"Unfortunately this disease has come to our country too ... where a man has sex with another man, which is completely unnatural and should not happen but does," Azad said.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/india-health-minister-calls-homosexuality-an-unnatural-disease-1.371565

[Ijustwannateach]

That's truly awful, especially his being health minister. We in the US avoided a terrible tragedy thanks to the professionalism and ethical outlook of C. Everett Koop, surgeon general of the US under Reagan- who despite his conservative Christian personal beliefs was one of the first and most outspoken surgeons general on the HIV/AIDS matter, to the point of posting a letter to EVERY US address, for the first time on record, with a pamphlet outline what was known about the disease and addressing myths and prejudices.

Every country with a 'no sex, please, we're .....' attitude will suffer for it. Just look at Africa.

[JemJem]

I am not even mentioning the likes of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Uganda regarding gay rights but even so-called liberal countries like India, Turkey and the Philippines have got a long way to go regarding gay rights, I think.

Jem

[endure]

I am not even mentioning the likes of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Uganda regarding gay rights but even so-called liberal countries like India, Turkey and the Philippines have got a long way to go regarding gay rights, I think.

Jem

All the countries you mention have religions, or were colonised by countries who had religions, that originated in the Middle East. What a coincidence!

[Jingthing]

This thread is weird. It seems there are TWO threads on the same subject.

[endure]

Yes the other thread was started in World News. I think the bigots are posting on that thread rather than this for 2 reasons. First they're afraid that if they post in here they'll all turn gay Second that they know they'll get a good trouncing.

[jdinasia]

You ask a specific question in this thread ......

The truth is that Hinduism is a very elaborate religion that 80%+ of Indians profess to be adherents of .... and that homosexuality (and changing genders etc) is expressed in the religion ...

The phobia regarding homosexuality is what the West (English) imported

[Jingthing]

You ask a specific question in this thread ......

The truth is that Hinduism is a very elaborate religion that 80%+ of Indians profess to be adherents of .... and that homosexuality (and changing genders etc) is expressed in the religion ...

The phobia regarding homosexuality is what the West (English) imported

Not real knowledgeable on Indian religion, but yes totally agree that many of the former English colonies are among the most homophobic in the world, and sometimes still have extremely horrible anti-gay laws on the books that were written by the English!

[LeCharivari]

Unfortunately his speech (originally given in Hindi) has been totally mis-quoted by those trying to make a point with little justification.

He did not refer to "homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West."

What he actually said according to the conference translation when talking about HIV/AIDS was that "Unfortunately, there a disease in the world and which has come to our country which is absolutely unnatural and should not happen but it does,"

The only time he referred directly to homosexuality was when he said that "there is a substantial number of men having sex with men in our country, but its difficult to track who is doing it and where ..... MSM is a high-risk group and it is necessary to reach out to them to prevent the spread of HIV. We can track female sex workers but it is almost impossible to identify men who have sex with men. We need to take the message to them. They should also take precaution to prevent the spread of infection,""

Most of the criticism was very clearly politically motivated and typical of petty politics: the opposition leader and ex-Health Minister, Sushma Swaraj, for example, made a big thing about him talking about "mother-to-child" transmission rather than the more politically correct "parent-to-child" term she had used.

If it were true it would be "truly awful" - but its not.

[LeCharivari]

You ask a specific question in this thread ......

The truth is that Hinduism is a very elaborate religion that 80%+ of Indians profess to be adherents of .... and that homosexuality (and changing genders etc) is expressed in the religion ...

The phobia regarding homosexuality is what the West (English) imported

Agreed, JD, but the British are only partly to blame - some areas are predominantly Muslim (such as Jammu and Kashmir) and the Muslim population are subject to Sharia law; that started 900 years ago, long before the British interfered.

All the countries you mention have religions, or were colonised by countries who had religions, that originated in the Middle East.

Agreed too; Christianity has a lot to answer for.

[Jingthing]

Unfortunately his speech (originally given in Hindi) has been totally mis-quoted by those trying to make a point with little justification.

He did not refer to "homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West."

What he actually said according to the conference translation when talking about HIV/AIDS was that "Unfortunately, there a disease in the world and which has come to our country which is absolutely unnatural and should not happen but it does,"

The only time he referred directly to homosexuality was when he said that "there is a substantial number of men having sex with men in our country, but its difficult to track who is doing it and where ..... MSM is a high-risk group and it is necessary to reach out to them to prevent the spread of HIV. We can track female sex workers but it is almost impossible to identify men who have sex with men. We need to take the message to them. They should also take precaution to prevent the spread of infection,""

Most of the criticism was very clearly politically motivated and typical of petty politics: the opposition leader and ex-Health Minister, Sushma Swaraj, for example, made a big thing about him talking about "mother-to-child" transmission rather than the more politically correct "parent-to-child" term she had used.

If it were true it would be "truly awful" - but its not.

It appears as usual that you are VERY wrong. And if you are going to try to stir things up that way, post a link!!!

Gay sex is an unnatural disease:

NEW DELHI: For the Union health minister Ghulam Nabi Azad, men having sex with men (MSMs) is not only "unnatural" but also a "disease."

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-07-05/india/29736336_1_naco-msms-global-aids-epidemic

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/indian-health-minister-ghulam-nabi-azad-left-leaves-photo-090001246.html

Look, the INDIAN gay activists who are very angry at this minister, do you think THEY don't speak Hindi?

http://www.newkerala.com/news/2011/worldnews-21259.html

Strongly disagreeing with the minister's comment, Ashok Row Kavi from Hamsafar Trust said: "Gay sex is not unnatural. It is a matter of one's sexual orientation. If out of 100 children, five are left-handed, do you call them unnatural?".

Edited July 8, 2011 by sbk

[AyG]

Not for a moment do I defend what the minister said, but he's technically right. The term "homosexual" was created in 1892 in a translation of Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis, so the West was responsible for making homosexuality a disease which could be imported.

[isanbirder]

Although the Health Minister was apparently mis-reported, I do not think that the publicity will do gays any harm at all. There has been such an outcry against what he is alleged to have said that I think it can only have positive results.

As for the religious attitude to homosexuality, this goes back to Judaism; Christianity and Islam both derived their opposition to it from the same source. China, the largest country never dominated or colonised by a Middle-eastern based religion, has always had ambivalent attitudes towards gays, sometimes opposed, sometimes liberal.

As a Catholic (about which I have always been completely frank on this forum), I deplore the attitudes of my church to gays. Ideas are changing, but changing the Church's opinions is about as easy as turning round a supertanker. It will happen, but don't hold your breath.

[Jingthing]

I don't think he was misquoted. Where is your evidence he was misquoted? Denials? That's not evidence.

[Ijustwannateach]

LCV,

I, too, would like to see a source for your quotations- since you apparently have access to sections of the actual speech, it shouldn't be too difficult to let the rest of us see for ourselves (I would also be curious if the source for this text of the speech were the actual spoken words from a recording, or a potential 'damage control' document released afterwords). Otherwise, I'm going to take the conservative road of agreeing with the Indian gay activists who presumably heard the same speech.

[isanbirder]

I don't think, now, that it matters any longer whether he was misquoted or not. The protests have happened (and will probably continue to happen). What really matters is what impact it is having on the Indian people in general, pro-gay, anti-gay, or indifferent. This we will never know.

Incidentally, the same minister got himself into trouble a couple of years ago by saying that one way to curb population growth was to supply electricity to the villages. (This seems eminently sensible to me, but he shouldn't have said it!)

[Jingthing]

Well, another way to look at it, and yes I believe he said it, is that minister now knows what a big mistake he made and it may force a rethink for him so possibly he will have the motivation to redeem himself and potentially improve the situation for gays in India, now that this issue is more out in the open. A small burst of optimism, must be something I ate.

[isanbirder]

Well, another way to look at it, and yes I believe he said it, is that minister now knows what a big mistake he made and it may force a rethink for him so possibly he will have the motivation to redeem himself and potentially improve the situation for gays in India, now that this issue is more out in the open. A small burst of optimism, must be something I ate.

Nice to see a bit of optimism about! Our Indian friends could do with it.

[tombkk]

Not for a moment do I defend what the minister said, but he's technically right. The term "homosexual" was created in 1892 in a translation of Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis, so the West was responsible for making homosexuality a disease which could be imported.

The term may have been created in the west, but not homosexuality itself.

[tombkk]

Unfortunately his speech (originally given in Hindi) has been totally mis-quoted by those trying to make a point with little justification.

He did not refer to "homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West."

What he actually said according to the conference translation when talking about HIV/AIDS was that "Unfortunately, there a disease in the world and which has come to our country which is absolutely unnatural and should not happen but it does,"

The only time he referred directly to homosexuality was when he said that "there is a substantial number of men having sex with men in our country, but its difficult to track who is doing it and where ..... MSM is a high-risk group and it is necessary to reach out to them to prevent the spread of HIV. We can track female sex workers but it is almost impossible to identify men who have sex with men. We need to take the message to them. They should also take precaution to prevent the spread of infection,""

Most of the criticism was very clearly politically motivated and typical of petty politics: the opposition leader and ex-Health Minister, Sushma Swaraj, for example, made a big thing about him talking about "mother-to-child" transmission rather than the more politically correct "parent-to-child" term she had used.

If it were true it would be "truly awful" - but its not.

Thank you for putting it straight (no pun intended). Please do post the link to the actual speach.

[tombkk]

You ask a specific question in this thread ......

The truth is that Hinduism is a very elaborate religion that 80%+ of Indians profess to be adherents of .... and that homosexuality (and changing genders etc) is expressed in the religion ...

The phobia regarding homosexuality is what the West (English) imported

Please send references. I think it is very relevant whether homosexuality is mentioned in the Hindu scriptures, as that is the predominant religion in India.

[jdinasia]

You ask a specific question in this thread ......

The truth is that Hinduism is a very elaborate religion that 80%+ of Indians profess to be adherents of .... and that homosexuality (and changing genders etc) is expressed in the religion ...

The phobia regarding homosexuality is what the West (English) imported

Please send references. I think it is very relevant whether homosexuality is mentioned in the Hindu scriptures, as that is the predominant religion in India.

Google is your friend

http://www.galva108.org/hinduism.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Hinduism

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1908406,00.html (The High Court's response to 377 is the only valid remark in here and it is subtle)

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/hinduism.htm

[LeCharivari]

LCV,

I, too, would like to see a source for your quotations- since you apparently have access to sections of the actual speech, it shouldn't be too difficult to let the rest of us see for ourselves (I would also be curious if the source for this text of the speech were the actual spoken words from a recording, or a potential 'damage control' document released afterwords). Otherwise, I'm going to take the conservative road of agreeing with the Indian gay activists who presumably heard the same speech.

He did say MSM was "unnatural" but he qualified that both at the time and later - he is a Muslim not a Hindu, so this is no great surprise, but he not only never called "homosexuality a disease" but he never actually mentioned homosexuality or gays at all - he referred only to MSM. Translations of various parts of the speech are given in most of the articles, any of which you can read for yourselves, and even in those articles which are the strongest in their criticism and where his speech is most edited there is little of substance to support the critics - at worst it is ambiguous, at best he is very clearly referring to HIV/Aids.

The Gay Rights groups in India try to play down the figures, as do some of the Aids activists, but he is sadly technically correct in much of what he said, although he is seldom politically correct. The reality is that MSM is by far the biggest group of HIV/Aids sufferers, with an infection rate of over 20 times that of the rest of the population (according to the

NACO ) but they were the last group to be "targeted" as an at risk group, long after intravenous drug users and sex workers. That is the point that Azad was making, which many Gay groups and Aids activists do not like being aired and which the government opposition who were responsible for an appallingly badly run HIV treatment/prevention programme are trying to cover up by attacking Azad, neatly diverting any attention away from themselves.

Links, as requested:

The allegedly offending part of his speech, in Hindi, with comments from various offended groups, in English. He is very clear in his speech that it is HIV that is a disease.

The Hindu

Mr. Azad said he had been quoted “totally out of context” by a section of the media, which reported him as saying that men having sex with men was a “disease.” A review of the video recording of his remarks, which were made in Hindi, makes it clear his use of the word bimari, or disease, referred to the spread of HIV-AIDS and not homosexuality.

CNN (and most other articles)

"Unfortunately, there a disease in the world and which has come to our country which is absolutely unnatural and should not happen but it does," Azad said at a New Delhi conference on AIDS and HIV. "There is a substantial number of men having sex with men in our country. But it's difficult to track who's doing it and where," he said in a speech delivered in Hindi.

What he actually recommended as a birth control measure a few years ago, IB, was that the villages had electricity so that the villagers could watch TV instead of having sex - hardly politically correct, as always, but not such a bad idea really!

[Jingthing]

Oh come on! It is very clear he called homosexuality unnatural. Sad to say it, but there are such people as self-hating gays ...

What's next? Defending fundamentalist gay conversion therapy?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Oh come on! It is very clear he called homosexuality unnatural.

Well, JT, I've done you and IJWT the courtesy of giving you the links and information you requested.

I think I've made it clear that he never made any reference to " homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West.", which was what most of the fuss and the OP was about.

Instead of just saying what you think he said or meant, or what someone else thinks he said or meant, maybe you could give any quote of his where he "called homosexuality unnatural". Even a misquote from your many links would do.

I am not saying that he is an advocate for gay rights or that he is a beacon of hope for gay acceptance in India. All I am saying is that he didn't say what he was accused of in your post.

"Self-hating gays"? No, not self hating - I simply hate those who are as bigoted as the people they are attacking who expect me to support them because we have a tenuous connection due to an accident of birth.

[Jingthing]

I admit it. I'm bigoted against bigots. No apologies. What do you expect, I should send them a banana cream pie?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

LCV,

I, too, would like to see a source for your quotations- since you apparently have access to sections of the actual speech, it shouldn't be too difficult to let the rest of us see for ourselves (I would also be curious if the source for this text of the speech were the actual spoken words from a recording, or a potential 'damage control' document released afterwords). Otherwise, I'm going to take the conservative road of agreeing with the Indian gay activists who presumably heard the same speech.

He did say MSM was "unnatural" but he qualified that both at the time and later - he is a Muslim not a Hindu, so this is no great surprise, but he not only never called "homosexuality a disease" but he never actually mentioned homosexuality or gays at all - he referred only to MSM. Translations of various parts of the speech are given in most of the articles, any of which you can read for yourselves, and even in those articles which are the strongest in their criticism and where his speech is most edited there is little of substance to support the critics - at worst it is ambiguous, at best he is very clearly referring to HIV/Aids.

The Gay Rights groups in India try to play down the figures, as do some of the Aids activists, but he is sadly technically correct in much of what he said, although he is seldom politically correct. The reality is that MSM is by far the biggest group of HIV/Aids sufferers, with an infection rate of over 20 times that of the rest of the population (according to the

NACO ) but they were the last group to be "targeted" as an at risk group, long after intravenous drug users and sex workers. That is the point that Azad was making, which many Gay groups and Aids activists do not like being aired and which the government opposition who were responsible for an appallingly badly run HIV treatment/prevention programme are trying to cover up by attacking Azad, neatly diverting any attention away from themselves.

Links, as requested:

Strangely, the headline flashing frequently over the minister's head in the first link you provide repeatedly says 'Gays Unnatural, AIDS Imported', which rather does seem to show that the news agency in question, with a staff composed apparently of Hindi-literate reporters, is claiming that the minister said that GAYS were UNNATURAL. Furthermore, it appears to me that this report is not on the ORIGINAL speech, because during the newscaster's followup the headline is 'Clarification Raises More Angst,' so it seems that this report is actually about remarks made in an essentially botched attempt to repackage earlier remarks, rather than the original speech, which I take to have been even more controversial by implication.

So, I stand by my original statement.

[JemJem]

I admit it. I'm bigoted against bigots. No apologies. What do you expect, I should send them a banana cream pie?

Same feelings/thoughts here. Anti-bigotry all the way ! I shall continue to speak out and act out against racists, nationalists, fundamentalists and anti-gays, despite nasty replies/comments and threats.

Jem

[LeCharivari]

Strangely, the headline flashing frequently over the minister's head in the first link you provide repeatedly says 'Gays Unnatural, AIDS Imported', which rather does seem to show that the news agency in question, with a staff composed apparently of Hindi-literate reporters, is claiming that the minister said that GAYS were UNNATURAL. Furthermore, it appears to me that this report is not on the ORIGINAL speech, because during the newscaster's followup the headline is 'Clarification Raises More Angst,' so it seems that this report is actually about remarks made in an essentially botched attempt to repackage earlier remarks, rather than the original speech, which I take to have been even more controversial by implication.

So, I stand by my original statement.

There is only one thing I find "strange" about it. As I suggested to JT, try to find any ACTUAL QUOTES from his speech where "the minister said that GAYS were UNNATURAL." There are plenty of quotes of what he said and plenty of reports of what he is SUPPOSED to have said, but I have yet to see even one containing an ACTUAL QUOTE where he (or the English translation) refers to homosexuality being either unnatural or a disease. Don't you find that just a little odd?

You appear to have only looked at the "headline flashing frequently over the minister's head" rather than listened to the part of the report in English, and flashing headlines seldom tell the full story (or even the correct one). The excerpt of the speech by Azad was taken directly from his speech at the conference, not from any "followup". The news-reader makes this clear, as she goes on to quote the "Health Ministry clarification" (which is also shown on the screen in quotes) saying that "the Minister was referring to HIV/Aids as an infection that has come from foreign countries".

If you, or JT, or anyone else, can find any ACTUAL QUOTE where "the minister said that GAYS were UNNATURAL" or where he described "homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West"" I'll be only too glad to join the lynch mob; it shouldn't be that hard to find just one - unless, of course, he never said it.

[Jingthing]

Oh come on! It is very clear he called homosexuality unnatural.

Well, JT, I've done you and IJWT the courtesy of giving you the links and information you requested.

I think I've made it clear that he never made any reference to " homosexuality as an unnatural "disease" from the West.", which was what most of the fuss and the OP was about.

Instead of just saying what you think he said or meant, or what someone else thinks he said or meant, maybe you could give any quote of his where he "called homosexuality unnatural". Even a misquote from your many links would do.

I am not saying that he is an advocate for gay rights or that he is a beacon of hope for gay acceptance in India. All I am saying is that he didn't say what he was accused of in your post.

"Self-hating gays"? No, not self hating - I simply hate those who are as bigoted as the people they are attacking who expect me to support them because we have a tenuous connection due to an accident of birth.

I find you unbelievable! Watch this CLOSELY. There is even more bigotry than first reported. It appears homosexuality was very recently LEGALIZED in India (the law against it being alegacy of the British) so we have to look at India in that historical context. Yes, this man must be CONDEMNED, and it is really bizarre to have a so called gay defender of his disgusting, archaic point of view. With friends like you, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRLbodpcYBU

Edited July 7, 2011 by Jingthing