Quality Products, Not Cheap Labour, Pheu Thai Policy: Jaruphong

[ginjag]

Citing a study by the International Labour Organisation, he said the daily minimum wage should be Bt441 - a rate he said would by sufficient to feed and support a labourer with a wife and a child in one day.

So, are they basically saying that having it at 300 means that the child still cannot eat? And that even at 441 baht a day does it mean Dad has to work 7-days a week or is it just assumed the family will not eat on week-ends?

I don;t know what all this is about really, I live far better than the Thai around me, my daily food and living amounts to less than this 300/400 bht. breakfast +coffee/orange juice=40bht........lunch burger 25bht......dinner potatoes greens gravy chicken, fruit..70bht.......supper coffee 5bht. eaten at home.

Thais will live on Thai food at a third the price. And most eat with families so the cost is less.

All my food I buy at Tesco Lotus. If I bought Thai food I would live at a lot lower cost.

Yesterday 5 kilo's of rice at Tesco was 90 bht, chicken at 80 bht a kilo.

my days food 140bht......electric 50bht----water 10bht....incidentals 25bht--225 bht a day.

no I am not a cheap charlie..I eat very well-the same as in England.

I think that Thais need a better income, to live more comfortable. but I have proven --above it's not all that bad===COMMENTS==sure ???

To truthful, I really have no idea of the consequences and benefits (except the perceived obvious) to raising the minimum wage. But I have to wonder if a 50% increase would cause prices to go up across the board and significantly raise the incredibly low unemployment rate in Thailand. I just couldn't imagine say increasing the rate of approx. $7.25 an hour in the US to $10.85 an hour over night ... I think it would have a huge impact on the cost of goods. But Thailand is not the US and typically the US raises the rate every couple years. However, you would have to go back nearly 15-years to see a 50% increase to what it is now. I am guessing a 15% increase would actually end up being more helpful in the long run. They can always continue to increase it but it is pretty hard to decrease it if a sudden jump does cause serious ripples through the economy. But when all is said and done .. I am clueless about the economic implications and would only like to see people living better with more opportunities. Oh, and my guess would be a dramatic increase would cause many jobs to be given to citizens of the poorer neighboring nations.

Totally agree, a 15% would be a sensible amount--but that doesn't win elections !! In my previous post I was being honest about the cost to live here-and roughly how much a Thai generally needs a day.

Any increase they have say (15%) would ease the burden a lot, give then a little to save, etc.

This proposed min-wage was a crowd puller...will--or can they pay it--along with the graduates-and samsung products for students, heading for bankruptcy -sure-unless the ""Family Thaksin foots the bill ????.........doing anything to gain power....Yingluck withdraw from the bank to pay !!

[RogueExpat]

The whole idea of "good and cheap", which I gather is part of the governments aim here to remain competative, is a contradiction. "Good and cheap" means smaller profits for enterprise, who then become a whole lot less enterprising.

Since wage increases affect everything else, and the recipient of the wage increase is no better off in the long run due to inflationary pressure, I believe the government actually wants inflation to increase tax revenue.

Wages up 50%, cost of goods and services up, more VAT tax collected, more income tax collected = more money for the government to spend, and as we have all seen, substancial percentages, as high as 30% suspected in some studies, of government expenditure gets channelled into individuals pockets.

[hammered]

Three hundred baht a day is entirely reasonable considering the hand jobby small raises of the last decade while basic commodities have increased by far far bigger percentages. It is making up for lost time. In the past decade there have also been some pretty big bonuses, dividends and pay raises paid to those employed on a more permanent basis while those at the bottom have seen an extra few baht a day. Maybe it is time for those who have seen the good times over the last decade and who enjoy reasonable to very good lifestyles see a tiny bit of belt tightening so that those who struggle can see a little more.

But that's the point isn't it - those that do enjoy reasonable to very good lifestyles will not need to tighten their belts, they do not change for better or worse - the guys at the bottom get an increase, which chains its way up the ladder (and Khun Good-Lifestyles gets a pay rise too) hurts Pay-Crap Industries, so it covers its costs by putting up the price - that ripples through industry, and inflation rises - now no one is any better off, but things are more expensive still and exports are hurt even more too. That's why it needs to be more taxes at the top and Government benefits at the bottom - keeps the employers out of it completely, thus the masses have greater spending power and companies sell more and THEN can afford to give across the board pay rises - it simply doesn't work backwards for all the want of trying or promising it will. Its the best way to give the poor more money without damanging the ecconomy - of course the infrastructure has to be paid for, but that is just taken into account with the taxation calculations.

The taxation side of the equation that is not being looked at by anyone or at least not mentioned is the critical side. Thailand needs to sort this out now so that welfare and pro-poor policies are sustainable over the long term. Taxation though is not a populist issue unless it is rich pay higher taxes but those in power are the rich, and how many rich people will vote to pay more tax? The middle classes already pay a fair deal. The poor are usually too poor to pay any. Mention of inheritance or unused land tax sends didnt go anywhere with the last lot in power. Sales taxes unfairly burden the poor.....

[Britannia]

Oh yes two of the biggest red haters on the forum jump out of their gilded cages to tell thailand how much they should pay their slaves I mean workers. Of course in your home country if these people were you or your family and they were not paid enough to maintain a decent standard of living to provide for their families it would be a different story wouldnt it ???

I normally totally disagree with the 2 anti reds as you call them, but I think on this topic they are talking basic economical sense.

Restructure the laws regarding anti foreign investment might be very advantageous in increasing training and quality but it takes time never by October

[OzMick]

Oh yes two of the biggest red haters on the forum jump out of their gilded cages to tell thailand how much they should pay their slaves I mean workers. Of course in your home country if these people were you or your family and they were not paid enough to maintain a decent standard of living to provide for their families it would be a different story wouldnt it ???

I have been a union activist and representative in every job that I have held over the past 30 odd years, and the gilt wore off my cage a long time ago. Your simplistic views are puerile in the extreme. Using union muscle to force an employer to raise wages (unless of course his profits are extreme) merely forces the company (in this case Thailand) into being uncompetitive, and next thing you know, your higher wage rate drops to SFA.

Have you ever heard of "Get a haircut and get a real job!"? It is a simpler way of saying if you don't like what you are getting, improve yourself and then improve your position. The Abhisit govt was doing just that by subsidising education; an educated workforce works more efficiently, and is paid better.

The simple minds at PTP say it's easy. Force up the minimum wage, not considering that all it will cause is inflation and unemployment. It is no help to the unemployed that the minimum wage is higher.

BTW who decides what is a decent standard of living? You?

[dhrobertson]

Sounds like a good idea. The world is already flooded with crappy Chinese products. We need low-cost while still quality products. That's the future Thai market.

It is - but it is a goal, not something that can be commanded (no magic wand). It takes the new Gov to concentrate on education and give incentives that engender ideas and creativity. Look at Cambridge University as an example (I know its a lofty example, but bear with me) - Cambridge has the highest density of technology companies and research companies in the world (more than Silicone Valley etc per capita) - many are joined to the University itself (came from post grad courses - University funded/arranged funding/sponsored etc - and earns back through part ownerships) - this model is age old in Cambridge (Cambridge is over 800 years old)) and many Universities around the world do similar now. It is not an over night process and could be disasterous to Thailand if she (the country I mean - not the caretaker-PM) tries to shift before the foundation is ready. Most of us are old enough to remember that all the cheap crap used to come from Japan - now all the best stuff does - Made in Korea also used to make us (me) think of cheap plastic toys and rebadged 15 year old Nissans - but not any more, yet Hong Kong is still struggling with that image.

I don;t think Thailand has that image actually - to me Thailand Thai good imported abroad is more the quaint, fairly expensive, stuff - not technological, more artistic or craft (wood carvings, bronze, silver, expensive furniture, silk) - not really known as a major exporter at all outside of exotic food and stapple. I too would like to see this change.

Thais just need to be educated better - in ways that give them interests that are cerebral too - Thais can be very creative as kids, and it seems to be it is almost knocked out of them by the school system here. No one seems to read for fun (other than comics), its rare that there are inter-school competitions outside of basic sports and the odd school quiz - I am thinking more along the lines of robot olympics and so on. This is why it needs real vision and real committment, because it needs sponsorship from commerce, its needs funding. Commerce needs a buyin (ROI) - kids need to be educated into being designers and engineers (not macarno bolt togther mechanics) - to carry that creativeness on from drawing cartoons to designing bridges etc. Long term view, long term startegy - PT got in on the anti-elite ticket; are still bashed for being run by some of the wealthiest people in the country; what better way to put their "money" where their mouth is and invest in the future BY investing in the kids! (and not in the Blair's New Labour way of throwing buckets of money, league tables and super-accademies - but my invigourating the students with interesting and fun lessons taught well in a modern thought provoking way, and bringing invention, intregue and lateral thinking out through projects and fun competition).

Yes, spot on!

I've been banging on about education being the key for a long while now.

However, moving to a knowledge based economy will take time, at least a generation or two.

In the meantime, increasing the minimum wage to 300 TBT per day should be easily absorbable. OK, restaurant prices may go up. So what. It might even have a small effect on raising domestic demand which would be good.

I used to be involved with high volume electronics manufacturing. This is a very high technology business. It is interesting that Thailand has held on to nearly all hard disk drive manufacture. This is duty to the high quality demanded. However, plants with,say, 2000 employess still several farang or Japanese engineers to get the production lines up and keep them up.

Shifting electronis manufacture from, say, Europe to Asia was all about reducing manufacturing costs to maximise profits. I can't see your brand name electronics companies being bothered about this small increase in labour costs. Their margins are vast anyway.

Same priciple applies in other industries including agriculture. Middle men could easily afford to absorb increased farm prices without affecting export prices in my opinion.

But, to come back to the original point, eductation is the key.

Frankly, it is lamentable at all levels. I regularly come accross graduates from "top" universities who have a very poor grasp of their own subject. It will be many years until they can have a Chulalongkorn Science Park. They could start by abolishing school uniforms for university students and demilitarising junior schools!

[philw]

How exactly would the government actually police this policy anyway? Has any small business owner on here ever had the government come round to check if you are currently paying the minimum wage? We certainly never have.

If we are forced to pay 300 baht a day for unskilled workers then we will either have to put our prices up or fire somebody, neither of which is going to help anybody.

Good question and I guess it will be policed via the Revenue and Labour Depts.

Revenue Dept at year end after audit, when assessing tax liability and Lab.Dept in the event of any disputes with staff.

[whybother]

I suggest to wait and see what the actual proposal, and law looks like after it passes. I don't trust newspapers enough to accurately document and translate statements, and also (and especially) not to accurately locate people who are speaking on an area they have actual authority over. What I see a lot is taking some wingnut and let him blabber a bit, and presto: a new article that doesn't actually report news, but serves to confuse the public.

In all seriousness: It's actually quite impossible to guarantee 15K nationwide for new employees, without addressing what happens with existing employees who may not be graduates but are more productive.

Right now I'm curious, but optimistic that it looks like finally something is being done for the poor. So good intentions, but I think a feasible law isn't quite there yet. Thank Gawd for Thaksin to guide the process, because he understands business very well.I wish he could come back sooner rather than later and get Thailand back on track, CEO style.

Wouldn't it be better to see what the law looks like BEFORE it passes?

Agree re:newspapers. Investigative and/or detailed reporting leaves a LOT to be desired.

I'll ignore your last comment.

[whatsupdoc]

For many of the provinces raising the minimum daily wage to 300 baht would be almost doubling it. Especially in the North and North-East it would send the economy down the drain by huge inflation and massive lay-offs.

Not a very good way to improve the life of the poor and get re-elected.....

[TAWP]

The notion of minimum wage is the insane concept that the government has the right to mandate what a persons time is validated at and that is has the right to force people to follow this.

And it always end up being the anti-solution to what it was originally intended at. The implementation of minimum wages always ends up being the guideline of what a job should give in income instead of being the lower end of a huge spectrum. I.e. in a nation of no minimum wages the distribution of salaries tend to look closer to a bell-curve than anything else. But with minimum wage all the salaries on the lower end gravitate directly towards the minimum wage set. Why would the employer give anything above the minimum wage when he knows that all the restaurants in the area will also pay the same, government mandated, salary level? He won't. He will pay the minimum level and never feel a real worry that the salary is used as a negotiation tool from the employees and other competing companies. It is the opposite to an open and free market. And in the long run it is always detrimental to the workforce, be it that their salary will rarely if ever go above the minimum wage -- even after years of employment -- or be it that unskilled workers will not have a chance to be apprentices for 1-2 months and prove that they can do the job and are quickly to learn, or be it that a newly started company cannot hire as much staff as needed during initial growth since the salary costs are just too high, therefor impeding growth etc etc...these are all problems in other nations where minimum wage are running off into mad levels.

[scorecard]

Yes we wouldnt want those peasants making a decent wage which they could spend to buy more of the products they produce in their current slave labor job would we while the factory owner laughs all the way to the bank ?

The current profile of wealth distribution is far from desireable and does urgently need attention.

A massive rise in the minimum salary is not the way to fix it, and in fact will likley just cause more problems, unemployment, inflation, etc etc.

The long term fix (hopefully as quickly as posssible) is to raise capability and make policy / implement policy which provides needed infrastructure and forces a broad geographical spread of good work opportunity, so that a much larger percentage of the population can gain a good quality of life through their own productivity. And it also means subsidies from the commonwealth funds of Thailand to provide freight subsidies etc etc so that work opportunities can sustain.

Subsidizing public transport is another possibility. For example, currently many city commuters cannot dream of a fast trip to work on the BTS or the MRT, it would consume far too much of their daily take home pay. The current policy of 'user pays' is fine in a fully developed society but not in a developing society.

And there's lots more that could be done to spread the wealth rather than a massive (problem making) rise in daily pay, which in reality would not happen across the board, there are very large numbers who are currently paid under the minimum wage by ruthless employers, and that's not likely to get corrected any time soon. Cheaper bus / transport fares (highly subsidized public transport) would put more money in their pockets.

Here's another point - On Tuesday this week my colleagues interviewed a Thai lady for a mid level accounting manager job - current market rate is about 35,000Baht a month. When the interview turned to salary discussion the candidate said "The new government has promised 15,000Baht minimum starting salary for new graduates, I started work on 7,000BAht therefore I'm entitled to the difference - a jump of 8,000Baht a month, therefore the salary I'm looking for should be around 43 - 46,000Baht a month.

[OzMick]

Sounds like a good idea. The world is already flooded with crappy Chinese products. We need low-cost while still quality products. That's the future Thai market.

It is - but it is a goal, not something that can be commanded (no magic wand). It takes the new Gov to concentrate on education and give incentives that engender ideas and creativity. Look at Cambridge University as an example (I know its a lofty example, but bear with me) - Cambridge has the highest density of technology companies and research companies in the world (more than Silicone Valley etc per capita) - many are joined to the University itself (came from post grad courses - University funded/arranged funding/sponsored etc - and earns back through part ownerships) - this model is age old in Cambridge (Cambridge is over 800 years old)) and many Universities around the world do similar now. It is not an over night process and could be disasterous to Thailand if she (the country I mean - not the caretaker-PM) tries to shift before the foundation is ready. Most of us are old enough to remember that all the cheap crap used to come from Japan - now all the best stuff does - Made in Korea also used to make us (me) think of cheap plastic toys and rebadged 15 year old Nissans - but not any more, yet Hong Kong is still struggling with that image.

I don;t think Thailand has that image actually - to me Thailand Thai good imported abroad is more the quaint, fairly expensive, stuff - not technological, more artistic or craft (wood carvings, bronze, silver, expensive furniture, silk) - not really known as a major exporter at all outside of exotic food and stapple. I too would like to see this change.

Thais just need to be educated better - in ways that give them interests that are cerebral too - Thais can be very creative as kids, and it seems to be it is almost knocked out of them by the school system here. No one seems to read for fun (other than comics), its rare that there are inter-school competitions outside of basic sports and the odd school quiz - I am thinking more along the lines of robot olympics and so on. This is why it needs real vision and real committment, because it needs sponsorship from commerce, its needs funding. Commerce needs a buyin (ROI) - kids need to be educated into being designers and engineers (not macarno bolt togther mechanics) - to carry that creativeness on from drawing cartoons to designing bridges etc. Long term view, long term startegy - PT got in on the anti-elite ticket; are still bashed for being run by some of the wealthiest people in the country; what better way to put their "money" where their mouth is and invest in the future BY investing in the kids! (and not in the Blair's New Labour way of throwing buckets of money, league tables and super-accademies - but my invigourating the students with interesting and fun lessons taught well in a modern thought provoking way, and bringing invention, intregue and lateral thinking out through projects and fun competition).

Yes, spot on!

I've been banging on about education being the key for a long while now.

However, moving to a knowledge based economy will take time, at least a generation or two.

In the meantime, increasing the minimum wage to 300 TBT per day should be easily absorbable. OK, restaurant prices may go up. So what. It might even have a small effect on raising domestic demand which would be good.

I used to be involved with high volume electronics manufacturing. This is a very high technology business. It is interesting that Thailand has held on to nearly all hard disk drive manufacture. This is duty to the high quality demanded. However, plants with,say, 2000 employess still several farang or Japanese engineers to get the production lines up and keep them up.

Shifting electronis manufacture from, say, Europe to Asia was all about reducing manufacturing costs to maximise profits. I can't see your brand name electronics companies being bothered about this small increase in labour costs. Their margins are vast anyway.

Same priciple applies in other industries including agriculture. Middle men could easily afford to absorb increased farm prices without affecting export prices in my opinion.

But, to come back to the original point, eductation is the key.

Frankly, it is lamentable at all levels. I regularly come accross graduates from "top" universities who have a very poor grasp of their own subject. It will be many years until they can have a Chulalongkorn Science Park. They could start by abolishing school uniforms for university students and demilitarising junior schools!

Your opinion on the altruistic nature of both electronic companies and produce middle-men are rather far-fetched. The electronic companies set up in Thailand because the wages were low, but you think that they will shrug off a 50% increase?

BTW if they are producing such high quality goods, why are they paying minimum wage? Isn't there an add-on for skills, even if acquired on the job?

[hammered]

The notion of minimum wage is the insane concept that the government has the right to mandate what a persons time is validated at and that is has the right to force people to follow this.

And it always end up being the anti-solution to what it was originally intended at. The implementation of minimum wages always ends up being the guideline of what a job should give in income instead of being the lower end of a huge spectrum. I.e. in a nation of no minimum wages the distribution of salaries tend to look closer to a bell-curve than anything else. But with minimum wage all the salaries on the lower end gravitate directly towards the minimum wage set. Why would the employer give anything above the minimum wage when he knows that all the restaurants in the area will also pay the same, government mandated, salary level? He won't. He will pay the minimum level and never feel a real worry that the salary is used as a negotiation tool from the employees and other competing companies. It is the opposite to an open and free market. And in the long run it is always detrimental to the workforce, be it that their salary will rarely if ever go above the minimum wage -- even after years of employment -- or be it that unskilled workers will not have a chance to be apprentices for 1-2 months and prove that they can do the job and are quickly to learn, or be it that a newly started company cannot hire as much staff as needed during initial growth since the salary costs are just too high, therefor impeding growth etc etc...these are all problems in other nations where minimum wage are running off into mad levels.

Hmmm but the free market doesnt work as we have just seen again and relies on the concept of the utterly ludicrous concept of "invisible hand" (that wasnt there a few years back when the bankers had a good laugh). Who could ever argue an economic theory that relied on something called an invisible hand had any validity is totally beyond me. Then again as free market equates to let the rich do anything they want and let those at the bottom die and as the rich control all the apparatus of propaganda, I guess it isnt surprising. Hopefully Thailand wont go the way of more deluded countries in pursuing this childish, murderous, unfair and proven disaster of a so called economic theory thats consequences leaves much of the world in abject poverty at the hands of exploitive unfettered companies

Not having minimum wages while surrounded by poverty and unequal distribution of wealth and forcing people into desperate straights is no way for any society to go

[dhrobertson]

Sounds like a good idea. The world is already flooded with crappy Chinese products. We need low-cost while still quality products. That's the future Thai market.

It is - but it is a goal, not something that can be commanded (no magic wand). It takes the new Gov to concentrate on education and give incentives that engender ideas and creativity. Look at Cambridge University as an example (I know its a lofty example, but bear with me) - Cambridge has the highest density of technology companies and research companies in the world (more than Silicone Valley etc per capita) - many are joined to the University itself (came from post grad courses - University funded/arranged funding/sponsored etc - and earns back through part ownerships) - this model is age old in Cambridge (Cambridge is over 800 years old)) and many Universities around the world do similar now. It is not an over night process and could be disasterous to Thailand if she (the country I mean - not the caretaker-PM) tries to shift before the foundation is ready. Most of us are old enough to remember that all the cheap crap used to come from Japan - now all the best stuff does - Made in Korea also used to make us (me) think of cheap plastic toys and rebadged 15 year old Nissans - but not any more, yet Hong Kong is still struggling with that image.

I don;t think Thailand has that image actually - to me Thailand Thai good imported abroad is more the quaint, fairly expensive, stuff - not technological, more artistic or craft (wood carvings, bronze, silver, expensive furniture, silk) - not really known as a major exporter at all outside of exotic food and stapple. I too would like to see this change.

Thais just need to be educated better - in ways that give them interests that are cerebral too - Thais can be very creative as kids, and it seems to be it is almost knocked out of them by the school system here. No one seems to read for fun (other than comics), its rare that there are inter-school competitions outside of basic sports and the odd school quiz - I am thinking more along the lines of robot olympics and so on. This is why it needs real vision and real committment, because it needs sponsorship from commerce, its needs funding. Commerce needs a buyin (ROI) - kids need to be educated into being designers and engineers (not macarno bolt togther mechanics) - to carry that creativeness on from drawing cartoons to designing bridges etc. Long term view, long term startegy - PT got in on the anti-elite ticket; are still bashed for being run by some of the wealthiest people in the country; what better way to put their "money" where their mouth is and invest in the future BY investing in the kids! (and not in the Blair's New Labour way of throwing buckets of money, league tables and super-accademies - but my invigourating the students with interesting and fun lessons taught well in a modern thought provoking way, and bringing invention, intregue and lateral thinking out through projects and fun competition).

Yes, spot on!

I've been banging on about education being the key for a long while now.

However, moving to a knowledge based economy will take time, at least a generation or two.

In the meantime, increasing the minimum wage to 300 TBT per day should be easily absorbable. OK, restaurant prices may go up. So what. It might even have a small effect on raising domestic demand which would be good.

I used to be involved with high volume electronics manufacturing. This is a very high technology business. It is interesting that Thailand has held on to nearly all hard disk drive manufacture. This is duty to the high quality demanded. However, plants with,say, 2000 employess still several farang or Japanese engineers to get the production lines up and keep them up.

Shifting electronis manufacture from, say, Europe to Asia was all about reducing manufacturing costs to maximise profits. I can't see your brand name electronics companies being bothered about this small increase in labour costs. Their margins are vast anyway.

Same priciple applies in other industries including agriculture. Middle men could easily afford to absorb increased farm prices without affecting export prices in my opinion.

But, to come back to the original point, eductation is the key.

Frankly, it is lamentable at all levels. I regularly come accross graduates from "top" universities who have a very poor grasp of their own subject. It will be many years until they can have a Chulalongkorn Science Park. They could start by abolishing school uniforms for university students and demilitarising junior schools!

Your opinion on the altruistic nature of both electronic companies and produce middle-men are rather far-fetched. The electronic companies set up in Thailand because the wages were low, but you think that they will shrug off a 50% increase?

BTW if they are producing such high quality goods, why are they paying minimum wage? Isn't there an add-on for skills, even if acquired on the job?

I would say that they are neither altruistic nor philanthropic

They pay the minimum because they can get away with it. It's not a bad job, apparantly, partcularly for Thai females. Clean environment, decent food, background music, chat with your mates etc etc. Therefore, there is a plentiful supply of labour. However, the labour element of the manufacturing cost is a very small percentage. I can recall a laser assembly for a well known DVD player manufacturer with a bill of materials amounting to about 1.90 USD and a labour element of 0.02 USD. However they made 10M units per annum. Final product sold for over 100USD. So doubling the labour cost is no big deal. Key issue was consistancy. It seems Thais are good at SPC (statistical process control). Labour costs have in the past at least been much lower in China. It is interesting that the disc drive industry did not move from Thailand by and large.

Fixing prices paid to farmers for rice and also controlling export price would squeeze the middle men it seems to me though I am no economist.

[Thaddeus]

How exactly would the government actually police this policy anyway? Has any small business owner on here ever had the government come round to check if you are currently paying the minimum wage? We certainly never have.

If we are forced to pay 300 baht a day for unskilled workers then we will either have to put our prices up or fire somebody, neither of which is going to help anybody.

Good question and I guess it will be policed via the Revenue and Labour Depts.

Revenue Dept at year end after audit, when assessing tax liability and Lab.Dept in the event of any disputes with staff.

It doesn't need to be policed, just wait for the complaints to start coming in from those who are not getting it.

But by then, they'll be Burmese, Cambodian ect who won't complain or won't be listened to if they do.

//edit/spolling

Edited July 7, 2011 by Thaddeus

[endure]

Sounds like a good idea. The world is already flooded with crappy Chinese products. We need low-cost while still quality products. That's the future Thai market.

I don;t think Thailand has that image actually - to me Thailand Thai good imported abroad is more the quaint, fairly expensive, stuff - not technological, more artistic or craft (wood carvings, bronze, silver, expensive furniture, silk) - not really known as a major exporter at all outside of exotic food and stapple. I too would like to see this change.

Thailand exports a significant quantity of computer hard drives, PCBs, ICs and other computer components.

[wolfmanjack]

Yes we wouldnt want those peasants making a decent wage which they could spend to buy more of the products they produce in their current slave labor job would we while the factory owner laughs all the way to the bank ?

They're not going to get a decent wage if they're unemployed.

The idea is to increase skills and productivity. Then the companies can afford to pay more.

Right. I have a few skilled workers making much more than the 300 baht per day but the unskilled workers start out at minimum wage. I pay according to their skill level and their output. 300 baht a day minimum wage and they will become independent contractors working at their home.

[TAWP]

The notion of minimum wage is the insane concept that the government has the right to mandate what a persons time is validated at and that is has the right to force people to follow this.

And it always end up being the anti-solution to what it was originally intended at. The implementation of minimum wages always ends up being the guideline of what a job should give in income instead of being the lower end of a huge spectrum. I.e. in a nation of no minimum wages the distribution of salaries tend to look closer to a bell-curve than anything else. But with minimum wage all the salaries on the lower end gravitate directly towards the minimum wage set. Why would the employer give anything above the minimum wage when he knows that all the restaurants in the area will also pay the same, government mandated, salary level? He won't. He will pay the minimum level and never feel a real worry that the salary is used as a negotiation tool from the employees and other competing companies. It is the opposite to an open and free market. And in the long run it is always detrimental to the workforce, be it that their salary will rarely if ever go above the minimum wage -- even after years of employment -- or be it that unskilled workers will not have a chance to be apprentices for 1-2 months and prove that they can do the job and are quickly to learn, or be it that a newly started company cannot hire as much staff as needed during initial growth since the salary costs are just too high, therefor impeding growth etc etc...these are all problems in other nations where minimum wage are running off into mad levels.

Hmmm but the free market doesnt work as we have just seen again and relies on the concept of the utterly ludicrous concept of "invisible hand" (that wasnt there a few years back when the bankers had a good laugh). Who could ever argue an economic theory that relied on something called an invisible hand had any validity is totally beyond me. Then again as free market equates to let the rich do anything they want and let those at the bottom die and as the rich control all the apparatus of propaganda, I guess it isnt surprising. Hopefully Thailand wont go the way of more deluded countries in pursuing this childish, murderous, unfair and proven disaster of a so called economic theory thats consequences leaves much of the world in abject poverty at the hands of exploitive unfettered companies

Not having minimum wages while surrounded by poverty and unequal distribution of wealth and forcing people into desperate straights is no way for any society to go

You are incorrect.

The free market works -- it is when there is corporatism or socialism that the failures start.

But you lovers of minimum wage, why wouldn't you then advocate it to be raised substantially? How about 10,000 baht per day? Since increasing it only has benefits and no issues, why not do it right right away?

[TAWP]

Sounds like a good idea. The world is already flooded with crappy Chinese products. We need low-cost while still quality products. That's the future Thai market.

I don;t think Thailand has that image actually - to me Thailand Thai good imported abroad is more the quaint, fairly expensive, stuff - not technological, more artistic or craft (wood carvings, bronze, silver, expensive furniture, silk) - not really known as a major exporter at all outside of exotic food and stapple. I too would like to see this change.

Thailand exports a significant quantity of computer hard drives, PCBs, ICs and other computer components.

But not with the slogan 'Made in Thailand'.

[Gippy]

How exactly would the government actually police this policy anyway? Has any small business owner on here ever had the government come round to check if you are currently paying the minimum wage? We certainly never have.

If we are forced to pay 300 baht a day for unskilled workers then we will either have to put our prices up or fire somebody, neither of which is going to help anybody.

Good question and I guess it will be policed via the Revenue and Labour Depts.

Revenue Dept at year end after audit, when assessing tax liability and Lab.Dept in the event of any disputes with staff.

The people who need an increase the most probably work for small outfits that never have any contact with the revenue or labour dept. We certainly never do, they just don't care. The first year we went to pay taxes we were told to go away without paying because we had only been open a year.

That leaves them the option of going to complain somewhere I guess, at which point they will probably be fired for missing work anyway. It might help people working for big companies but the girl washing the dishes at a local restaurant will never see 300 baht a day.

[wolfmanjack]

Yes we wouldnt want those peasants making a decent wage which they could spend to buy more of the products they produce in their current slave labor job would we while the factory owner laughs all the way to the bank ?

The current profile of wealth distribution is far from desireable and does urgently need attention.

A massive rise in the minimum salary is not the way to fix it, and in fact will likley just cause more problems, unemployment, inflation, etc etc.

The long term fix (hopefully as quickly as posssible) is to raise capability and make policy / implement policy which provides needed infrastructure and forces a broad geographical spread of good work opportunity, so that a much larger percentage of the population can gain a good quality of life through their own productivity. And it also means subsidies from the commonwealth funds of Thailand to provide freight subsidies etc etc so that work opportunities can sustain.

Subsidizing public transport is another possibility. For example, currently many city commuters cannot dream of a fast trip to work on the BTS or the MRT, it would consume far too much of their daily take home pay. The current policy of 'user pays' is fine in a fully developed society but not in a developing society.

And there's lots more that could be done to spread the wealth rather than a massive (problem making) rise in daily pay, which in reality would not happen across the board, there are very large numbers who are currently paid under the minimum wage by ruthless employers, and that's not likely to get corrected any time soon. Cheaper bus / transport fares (highly subsidized public transport) would put more money in their pockets.

Here's another point - On Tuesday this week my colleagues interviewed a Thai lady for a mid level accounting manager job - current market rate is about 35,000Baht a month. When the interview turned to salary discussion the candidate said "The new government has promised 15,000Baht minimum starting salary for new graduates, I started work on 7,000BAht therefore I'm entitled to the difference - a jump of 8,000Baht a month, therefore the salary I'm looking for should be around 43 - 46,000Baht a month.

good story. It reminds me of the girl working as a secretary that was studying on weekends to get a tourism degree. When she finally got her degree she asked for a raise.

Boss-Does your degree help you in your job?

Girl- well no but i got a degree so i need more money.

Boss- Do you do any more at work today than you did yesterday?

Girl- well no but i got a degree so i need more money.

etc etc etc.

[AleG]

I suggest to wait and see what the actual proposal, and law looks like after it passes. I don't trust newspapers enough to accurately document and translate statements, and also (and especially) not to accurately locate people who are speaking on an area they have actual authority over. What I see a lot is taking some wingnut and let him blabber a bit, and presto: a new article that doesn't actually report news, but serves to confuse the public.

In all seriousness: It's actually quite impossible to guarantee 15K nationwide for new employees, without addressing what happens with existing employees who may not be graduates but are more productive.

Right now I'm curious, but optimistic that it looks like finally something is being done for the poor. So good intentions, but I think a feasible law isn't quite there yet. Thank Gawd for Thaksin to guide the process, because he understands business very well.I wish he could come back sooner rather than later and get Thailand back on track, CEO style.

Running a country as a business means running it as a source of profit. Nothing to do with helping the poor.

For those that repeat over and over again how Thaksin cares for the poor here's a challenge. Name one program, grant, initiative, whatever that he, as a private individual, has financed out of his huge fortune. Scholarships for the poor, building schools, orphanage, books, vaccination programs, anything at all.

For example Bill Gates has the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, doing work in vaccination in Africa, promoting innovation in farming, etc, etc...

What has Thaksin ever did along those lines? With his personal fortune, out of love and care for the needy, has he ever done anything for those people without a vested interest?

His policies for the poor are simply a form of garnering votes, he doesn't care for the poor, he cares about votes and the power they'd bring to him; therefore we can count on his policies to be aimed at accruing more votes and political capital as the goal, not at necessarily be good for the down trodden.

[wolfmanjack]

Totally agree, a 15% would be a sensible amount--but that doesn't win elections !! In my previous post I was being honest about the cost to live here-and roughly how much a Thai generally needs a day.

Any increase they have say (15%) would ease the burden a lot, give then a little to save, etc.

This proposed min-wage was a crowd puller...will--or can they pay it--along with the graduates-and samsung products for students, heading for bankruptcy -sure-unless the ""Family Thaksin foots the bill ????.........doing anything to gain power....Yingluck withdraw from the bank to pay !!

In my experience the more they make the more days they take off during the month. These guys figure out how much money they need and that is the # of days they will show up for work. When i try to get them to work overtime so they can make more money instead of me bringing in extra workers they say it cuts into their drinking time. The guys that want to work hard already make 300 per day or more.

[Gippy]

I suggest to wait and see what the actual proposal, and law looks like after it passes. I don't trust newspapers enough to accurately document and translate statements, and also (and especially) not to accurately locate people who are speaking on an area they have actual authority over. What I see a lot is taking some wingnut and let him blabber a bit, and presto: a new article that doesn't actually report news, but serves to confuse the public.

In all seriousness: It's actually quite impossible to guarantee 15K nationwide for new employees, without addressing what happens with existing employees who may not be graduates but are more productive.

Right now I'm curious, but optimistic that it looks like finally something is being done for the poor. So good intentions, but I think a feasible law isn't quite there yet. Thank Gawd for Thaksin to guide the process, because he understands business very well.I wish he could come back sooner rather than later and get Thailand back on track, CEO style.

Running a country as a business means running it as a source of profit. Nothing to do with helping the poor.

For those that repeat over and over again how Thaksin cares for the poor here's a challenge. Name one program, grant, initiative, whatever that he, as a private individual, has financed out of his huge fortune. Scholarships for the poor, building schools, orphanage, books, vaccination programs, anything at all.

For example Bill Gates has the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, doing work in vaccination in Africa, promoting innovation in farming, etc, etc...

What has Thaksin ever did along those lines? With his personal fortune, out of love and care for the needy, has he ever done anything for those people without a vested interest?

His policies for the poor are simply a form of garnering votes, he doesn't care for the poor, he cares about votes and the power they'd bring to him; therefore we can count on his policies to be aimed at accruing more votes and political capital as the goal, not at necessarily be good for the down trodden.

Spot on AleG. I asked my wife the same question a few years ago. About 10 minutes later she decided that she didn't actually like Thaksin any more.

[wolfmanjack]

I suggest to wait and see what the actual proposal, and law looks like after it passes. I don't trust newspapers enough to accurately document and translate statements, and also (and especially) not to accurately locate people who are speaking on an area they have actual authority over. What I see a lot is taking some wingnut and let him blabber a bit, and presto: a new article that doesn't actually report news, but serves to confuse the public.

In all seriousness: It's actually quite impossible to guarantee 15K nationwide for new employees, without addressing what happens with existing employees who may not be graduates but are more productive.

Right now I'm curious, but optimistic that it looks like finally something is being done for the poor. So good intentions, but I think a feasible law isn't quite there yet. Thank Gawd for Thaksin to guide the process, because he understands business very well.I wish he could come back sooner rather than later and get Thailand back on track, CEO style.

Running a country as a business means running it as a source of profit. Nothing to do with helping the poor.

For those that repeat over and over again how Thaksin cares for the poor here's a challenge. Name one program, grant, initiative, whatever that he, as a private individual, has financed out of his huge fortune. Scholarships for the poor, building schools, orphanage, books, vaccination programs, anything at all.

For example Bill Gates has the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, doing work in vaccination in Africa, promoting innovation in farming, etc, etc...

What has Thaksin ever did along those lines? With his personal fortune, out of love and care for the needy, has he ever done anything for those people without a vested interest?

His policies for the poor are simply a form of garnering votes, he doesn't care for the poor, he cares about votes and the power they'd bring to him; therefore we can count on his policies to be aimed at accruing more votes and political capital as the goal, not at necessarily be good for the down trodden.

If he cared about the poor he would have improved the schools while he was in office. You are right though that he and his family have plenty enough where they could improve the life of the poor using their own personal fortune.

[whybother]

If he cared about the poor he would have improved the schools while he was in office. You are right though that he and his family have plenty enough where they could improve the life of the poor using their own personal fortune.

But didn't Thaksin pay off the IMF loan with his own money?

[webfact]

Govt to Raise Minimum Wage for Civil Servants, State Firm Employees in October

The Pheu Thai-led government is looking to raise the monthly salary for civil servants and employees of state enterprises, starting from October.

Pheu Thai Party Secretary-General Jarupong Ruangsuwan, also serving as a member of the party's economic team, said the new government expects to start increasing the minimum salary to 15,000 baht per month for civil servants and state-enterprise employees in October.

As for an increase to the minimum wage rate, he said the policy will be put into effect once the government has reached a conclusion with the private sector and prepared measures to assist companies in managing the higher payroll, such as a cut to the business income tax and promotion of exports to emerging markets.

Jarupong noted that the plan to increase the minimum wage to 300 baht a day aims to help low-income earners support themselves. He reaffirmed that the same rate will apply to all provinces.

The minimum wage increase is expected to be implemented next year.

The Pheu Thai secretary-general said the International Labor Organization noted that an appropriate wage should allow an individual to cover basic expenses for all family members. He added that worker skills must be improved, and the production of high-value products must be promoted in order to correspond with higher wages and the economic development plan in 2020.

-- Tan Network 2011-07-07

[webfact]

Central Bank Recommends Gradual Wage Hike

The Bank of Thailand says an immediate increase to the minimum wage, to 300 baht a day, would likely put pressure on inflation and could be difficult to realize. The central bank suggests the hike be gradual.

Director of the Bank of Thailand's Domestic Economy Department Methee Supapong suggests that the increase to the daily minimum wage, to 300 baht as proposed by the new government, be gradual. He adds that it will have to be approved by the tripartite committee representing the state, employers, and employees, before implementation.

He noted that increasing the wage to 300 baht at once could greatly affect inflation, and that it would be difficult to implement.

Methee suggested that the new government focus on investing in infrastructure projects, as the lack of proper infrastructure is restricting the nation's development and economic prosperity.

Regarding the new government's desire to keep policy interest rates low, the director said the most urgent task for his agency is to keep inflation at a level favorable to long-term economic growth.

-- Tan Network 2011-07-07

[Kilgore Trout]

Oh yes two of the biggest red haters on the forum jump out of their gilded cages to tell thailand how much they should pay their slaves I mean workers. Of course in your home country if these people were you or your family and they were not paid enough to maintain a decent standard of living to provide for their families it would be a different story wouldnt it ???

Different story eh, try supporting a family in New York on minimum wage which is 7.25 USD per hour. Doubt you can find a place to live for less than 1200 per month, do you know how much insurance is for a family? The list of expenses go on.

Surely you must be joking

[otherstuff1957]

<br />

<br />

<br />How exactly would the government actually police this policy anyway? Has any small business owner on here ever had the government come round to check if you are currently paying the minimum wage? We certainly never have.<br /><br /><br />If we are forced to pay 300 baht a day for unskilled workers then we will either have to put our prices up or fire somebody, neither of which is going to help anybody.<br />

<br /><br />Good question and I guess it will be policed via the Revenue and Labour Depts.<br />Revenue Dept at year end after audit, when assessing tax liability and Lab.Dept in the event of any disputes with staff.<br />

<br /><br />The people who need an increase the most probably work for small outfits that never have any contact with the revenue or labour dept. We certainly never do, they just don't care. The first year we went to pay taxes we were told to go away without paying because we had only been open a year.<br />That leaves them the option of going to complain somewhere I guess, at which point they will probably be fired for missing work anyway. It might help people working for big companies but the girl washing the dishes at a local restaurant will never see 300 baht a day.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

A friend of mine set up a small business along with his daughter. He was amazed at how much paperwork was involved and how much tax he was supposed to pay! He asked a Thai business lawyer how the average small Thai business handled it.... Of course the answer was that many small Thai businesses are unregistered and pay no taxes!

The basic rule of thumb seemed to be that a proper business with a permanent location (like a shophouse) paid taxes, but your average street stall didn't.

How are they going to enforce a minimum wage with these small businesses when they don't enforce anything else?