whybother Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Rather interesting that the same posters are not fully supporting, being so dogmatic, vociferous,and insisting the law be upheld, regarding the investigation request by his sister into the shooting of an Italian journalist. Is anyone saying that the shooting *shouldn't* be investigated? If you apply the same thinking as most pro-red shirt/PTP/Thaksin posters in this thread, the army shouldn't be investigated for anything during the April/May protests "because the army won." Did the people vote for the army in the knowledge that they 'may' have committed attrocities? I'm not the one using the "we won, so it's OK to break the law" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 So you are happy to disregard the will of the people. When it breaks the law, then YES, ABSOLUTELY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Rather interesting that the same posters are not fully supporting, being so dogmatic, vociferous,and insisting the law be upheld, regarding the investigation request by his sister into the shooting of an Italian journalist. Don't know to whom you refer - be specific if you wish to make the accusation. My position is clear on all matters of reported criminality; that it be fully investigated in accordance with the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Perhaps he was only trying to 'educate' the executives, have a discussion, offer his opinion, ............I believe this is not seen as interfering in Thai politics by many Tvisa posters......after all the final decision will be made by the party executive....without Thaksin. How do you know that the final decision will be made without Thaksin? You don't. Neither do i. Establishing the facts would require an investigation. I wouldn't have a problem with that. You however seem to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Rather interesting that the same posters are not fully supporting, being so dogmatic, vociferous,and insisting the law be upheld, regarding the investigation request by his sister into the shooting of an Italian journalist. Don't know to whom you refer - be specific if you wish to make the accusation. My position is clear on all matters of reported criminality; that it be fully investigated in accordance with the law. "Accusation".........pft......observation.....and by your comment above, I can only assume as the 'observation' could not possibly be attributed to you.......you are trying to up your post count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtoad Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Rather interesting that the same posters are not fully supporting, being so dogmatic, vociferous,and insisting the law be upheld, regarding the investigation request by his sister into the shooting of an Italian journalist. Don't know to whom you refer - be specific if you wish to make the accusation. My position is clear on all matters of reported criminality; that it be fully investigated in accordance with the law. "Accusation".........pft......observation.....and by your comment above, I can only assume as the 'observation' could not possibly be attributed to you.......you are trying to up your post count. I very much doubt that there is anyone on this board, that doesn't want proper investigations carried out in accordance with the law. Oh, sorry I forgot, there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Perhaps he was only trying to 'educate' the executives, have a discussion, offer his opinion, ............I believe this is not seen as interfering in Thai politics by many Tvisa posters......after all the final decision will be made by the party executive....without Thaksin. How do you know that the final decision will be made without Thaksin? You don't. Neither do i. Establishing the facts would require an investigation. I wouldn't have a problem with that. You however seem to. Of course the decision would made without Thaksin, he is not on the party executive, and he is banned from politics..........until as you say facts are established otherwise Why would I have a problem with an investigation when I have stated earlier in the thread, if there has been a breach of rules then an investigation should take place......I guess you either missed that, have a poor, or selective memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Can the democrats be disbanded for bringing a banned politition into their campaign........I refer of course to their attempt to put across the point that if you vote PTP you are voting for amnesty for Thaksin..........were they not attempting to sway the vote(and failed) using a person who is apparently not allowed to be involved? Could they be seen as participating in the involvement of Thaksin, a banned polititian? just a thought I thought that the Dems were protesting against the involvement of Thaksin, rather than participating in it, pre-election ? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear..... Our discussions are not the Thai courts, so, for the purpose of our discussions in trying to get to the bottom of things we can be honest with each other. There is no need for prevarication (within the law, of course ) There is overwhelming evidence of Newin's personal associations with the last government's officials. The press reported on them frequently, and there is that hilarious video of Suthep and Newin organising Blue Shirt thugs during the ASEAN conference in Pattaya. I expect that the new government will want to have a look at what went wrong with the judicial process in this and other cases at some point. Sadly any attempt to nail Newin is likely to be covered by Thaksin's misguided blanket-amnesty, for all political-crimes over the past several years, unless double-standards will be applied ? Any price is acceptable for reconciliation, and the return of Dear leader, eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Rather interesting that the same posters are not fully supporting, being so dogmatic, vociferous,and insisting the law be upheld, regarding the investigation request by his sister into the shooting of an Italian journalist. Don't know to whom you refer - be specific if you wish to make the accusation. My position is clear on all matters of reported criminality; that it be fully investigated in accordance with the law. "Accusation".........pft......observation.....and by your comment above, I can only assume as the 'observation' could not possibly be attributed to you.......you are trying to up your post count. I very much doubt that there is anyone on this board, that doesn't want proper investigations carried out in accordance with the law. Oh, sorry I forgot, there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability. That is certainly not my position. Winning at the ballot box, when the people have knowledge of who/what they are voting for is ok with me. If Thaksin had been secretly involved then I would certainly have a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Rather interesting that the same posters are not fully supporting, being so dogmatic, vociferous,and insisting the law be upheld, regarding the investigation request by his sister into the shooting of an Italian journalist. Don't know to whom you refer - be specific if you wish to make the accusation. My position is clear on all matters of reported criminality; that it be fully investigated in accordance with the law. "Accusation".........pft......observation.....and by your comment above, I can only assume as the 'observation' could not possibly be attributed to you.......you are trying to up your post count. All deaths should be investigated, no need to give preference to any single case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I very much doubt that there is anyone on this board, that doesn't want proper investigations carried out in accordance with the law. Oh, sorry I forgot, there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability. That is certainly not my position. Winning at the ballot box, when the people have knowledge of who/what they are voting for is ok with me. If Thaksin had been secretly involved then I would certainly have a problem with it. Actually, "there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability." is your position. So, would you agree that the 2007 constitution "pushed through" by the junta was 100% acceptable. After all, the people voted for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjaak327 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I very much doubt that there is anyone on this board, that doesn't want proper investigations carried out in accordance with the law. Oh, sorry I forgot, there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability. That is certainly not my position. Winning at the ballot box, when the people have knowledge of who/what they are voting for is ok with me. If Thaksin had been secretly involved then I would certainly have a problem with it. Actually, "there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability." is your position. So, would you agree that the 2007 constitution "pushed through" by the junta was 100% acceptable. After all, the people voted for it. No it isn't. Thailand shoukd reinstate this constitution, it should also rerun the case that lead to the abolishing of TRT and the miracle that the Dems were spared this fate. Surely people on this thread that take the rule of law so highly, would agree that abollishing a constitution to clear the persons that executed this coup is equally unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I very much doubt that there is anyone on this board, that doesn't want proper investigations carried out in accordance with the law. Oh, sorry I forgot, there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability. That is certainly not my position. Winning at the ballot box, when the people have knowledge of who/what they are voting for is ok with me. If Thaksin had been secretly involved then I would certainly have a problem with it. Actually, "there are a few that believe that winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability." is your position. So, would you agree that the 2007 constitution "pushed through" by the junta was 100% acceptable. After all, the people voted for it. I don't have any knowledge of that issue. Did the people specifically vote for a change in constitution? Was a change in the constitution part of the elected party's agenda? or did the govt change it after they were elected? Sorry but I can't really comment without knowing more of what happened and I'm afraid it may go way off the topic so I may be best just to not comment on that. Why would you say that I believe winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability? I have repeatedly said that winning at the ballot box, with the people having full knowledge before the election, absolves people of accountability. That is a completely different animal. I have also said that if Thaksin was clandestine and secretly was involved then I would have a completely different view on the matter. I hope my position is now less ambiguous to anyone that gives a shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 regarding corruption in gov't & elections, perhaps we as westerners should remember that : 4 of the last 7 governors of Illinois have been convicted of crimes. Most all of the US States (47 of 50) allow redistricting of their election districts to ensure re-election. Jacques Chirac was to be indited for crimes committed while mayor of Paris and benefited from immunity because he was then the President of the republic. DSK - the former head of the IMF and French presidential hopeful is now under house arrest in the US for allegedly sexually assaulting hotel staff. Multinational corporations in the US can now spend unlimited amounts of money on elections because they have been granted the same free-speech rights as individuals. etc, etc, etc, ... Before we all pile on the Thai people for their elections and corruption, we should remember that where ever we live and come from, there are always problems to solve and that there, too, money & graft rules the world. Good luck to the Thai people and their new government. They have much work to do. Actually DSK is released on bail, and free to travel anywhere if he doesn't leave USA. Never said the USA house is an icon of perfection. But we DO nail our bad eggs when we can. Like Balgovich up for 10 real of a possible 300 years in jail, Yes, gerrymandering is done in USA for political advantage. None of which is an excuse to let Thaksins baltant crimes get a free pass. Hi Animatic - sometimes on TVF it seems like more than nailing a bad egg. Just an observation. I don't watch TV or take the newspaper, so I missed DSK being on bail - last time I heard, he was in a NYC apartment with a $50,000/month rent. Nice house-arrest, eh? People who care about Thailand and Thai people should worry about what happens in Thailand. Normal. But so many throw stones in glass houses on TVF. Sometimes on TVF it seems like many are just farting out 100 year old eggs, and crushing them with a large hammer, because they have nothing better to do and they like the stink. Funny ! I'm looking forward to getting back in 2 weeks. It's always nice to see things first hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I don't have any knowledge of that issue. Did the people specifically vote for a change in constitution? Was a change in the constitution part of the elected party's agenda? or did the govt change it after they were elected? Sorry but I can't really comment without knowing more of what happened and I'm afraid it may go way off the topic so I may be best just to not comment on that. Why would you say that I believe winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability? I have repeatedly said that winning at the ballot box, with the people having full knowledge before the election, absolves people of accountability. That is a completely different animal. I have also said that if Thaksin was clandestine and secretly was involved then I would have a completely different view on the matter. I hope my position is now less ambiguous to anyone that gives a shit. Simply -- I don't. (in reference to your opinion stated in the last line of your post.) ALL Thais are stakeholders in this and it is the duty of the opposition to bring this forward, and the duty of the EC and Constitution Ct to rule on this if it has merit. Even if the PTP had managed a majority of voters (it didn't) it would not abrogate the fact that ALL Thais should be protected from the tyranny of any minority OR majority. That is why democracy relies on the rule of law. (argument by analogy (not anecdote) is flawed but you keep going right back to the basic premise that it is OK to rob the minority --- of their right to be treated equally under the law.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I don't have any knowledge of that issue. Did the people specifically vote for a change in constitution? Was a change in the constitution part of the elected party's agenda? or did the govt change it after they were elected? Sorry but I can't really comment without knowing more of what happened and I'm afraid it may go way off the topic so I may be best just to not comment on that. Why would you say that I believe winning at the ballot box absolves people of any accountability? I have repeatedly said that winning at the ballot box, with the people having full knowledge before the election, absolves people of accountability. That is a completely different animal. I have also said that if Thaksin was clandestine and secretly was involved then I would have a completely different view on the matter. I hope my position is now less ambiguous to anyone that gives a shit. Simply -- I don't. (in reference to your opinion stated in the last line of your post.) ALL Thais are stakeholders in this and it is the duty of the opposition to bring this forward, and the duty of the EC and Constitution Ct to rule on this if it has merit. Even if the PTP had managed a majority of voters (it didn't) it would not abrogate the fact that ALL Thais should be protected from the tyranny of any minority OR majority. That is why democracy relies on the rule of law. (argument by analogy (not anecdote) is flawed but you keep going right back to the basic premise that it is OK to rob the minority --- of their right to be treated equally under the law.) I thought you didn't give a shit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtom Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I think the inconvenient truth is that most Thais (by far more than just the red camp) don't believe the courts to be impartial. They don't have the same trust in the rule of law unlike most people in this discussion. Probably from past experience? Let's just hope the courts will deliver reasonable decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I think the inconvenient truth is that most Thais (by far more than just the red camp) don't believe the courts to be impartial. They don't have the same trust in the rule of law unlike most people in this discussion. Probably from past experience? Let's just hope the courts will deliver reasonable decisions. Anyone who has listened to the LONG and elaborate explanations given publicly over two past court cases, one civil and one criminal case .... knows how the decisions were deliberated and had a full explanation. Other cases have been given the same transparency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtom Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 It's not up to me to criticize court decisions, I was talking about the perception of (probably) most Thais, which of course I cannot prove, just my humble opinion derived from a few discussions with 'neutral' Thais. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) Just because most Thai's may not find their legal system very legit, doesn't mean the legal system shouldn't take cases, and rule on cases. How to improve the legal system and make it more accepted as being politically objective? I suppose through democratic processes over time. Democracy is a participatory thing, if people just phase out of caring, nothing can possibly get better. But blatantly ignoring reasonable laws which apply to all Thais (such as openly using banned politicians) isn't exactly an admirable move in that direction. I believe PTP could have and WOULD have won without their blatant Thaksin ploy. Probably not as big, but it would have been much cleaner and much more legitimate. Now they have the same problem as Abhisit had, a credible question of their LEGITIMACY. That's serious and they brought this on themselves. Edited July 10, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Just because most Thai's may not find their legal system very legit, doesn't mean the legal system shouldn't take cases, and rule on cases. How to improve the legal system and make it more accepted as being politically objective? I suppose through democratic processes over time. Democracy is a participatory thing, if people just phase out of caring, nothing can possibly get better. But blatantly ignoring reasonable laws which apply to all Thais (such as openly using banned politicians) isn't exactly an admirable move in that direction. I believe PTP could have and WOULD have won without their blatant Thaksin ploy. Probably not as big, but it would have been much cleaner and much more legitimate. Now they have the same problem as Abhisit had, a credible question of their LEGITIMACY. That's serious and they brought this on themselves. Do you really think the average non Tvisa participant in Thailand is bothered about the fact that Thaksin was, or was not involved, excepting the losers at the ballot box of course!! But let Democrats busy themselves cleaning up politics, while PTP govern, then the Thai people can all move on together corruption free......... should be interesting times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) But let Democrats busy themselves cleaning up politics, while PTP govern, then the Thai people can all move on together corruption free......... should be interesting times Corruption free? A party led by Thaksin corruption free? Please tell me, you don't really believe that! Even most PTP supporters fully understand Thaksin has a long rich record of corruption. Not saying they aren't ALL corrupt, but please let's stay out of the fantasy world, shall we? Edited July 10, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Just because most Thai's may not find their legal system very legit, doesn't mean the legal system shouldn't take cases, and rule on cases. How to improve the legal system and make it more accepted as being politically objective? I suppose through democratic processes over time. Democracy is a participatory thing, if people just phase out of caring, nothing can possibly get better. But blatantly ignoring reasonable laws which apply to all Thais (such as openly using banned politicians) isn't exactly an admirable move in that direction. I believe PTP could have and WOULD have won without their blatant Thaksin ploy. Probably not as big, but it would have been much cleaner and much more legitimate. Now they have the same problem as Abhisit had, a credible question of their LEGITIMACY. That's serious and they brought this on themselves. Do you really think the average non Tvisa participant in Thailand is bothered about the fact that Thaksin was, or was not involved, excepting the losers at the ballot box of course!! But let Democrats busy themselves cleaning up politics, while PTP govern, then the Thai people can all move on together corruption free......... should be interesting times So the average Thai won't be bothered, except for a majority of voters, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMoran Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Corruption free? A party led by Thaksin corruption free? Please tell me, you don't really believe that! Even most PTP supporters fully understand Thaksin has a long rich record of corruption. Not saying they aren't ALL corrupt, but please let's stay out of the fantasy world, shall we? If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it then you really ought to show it, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it then you really ought to show it, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands. I'm speechless. Now recovered. OK, I think you are saying nothing of this matters to you, and therefore, none of this matters to anyone, or to non-Thais anyway. So I should now post on a GOLFING topic (which means nothing to me) and post lyrics of childish songs? You're a pistol, dude. Edited July 10, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 But let Democrats busy themselves cleaning up politics, while PTP govern, then the Thai people can all move on together corruption free......... should be interesting times Corruption free? A party led by Thaksin corruption free? Please tell me, you don't really believe that! I thought the whole idea of an investigation was to ensure Thaksin was adhering to his ban from politics, and it has been said here, it is the duty of the opposition to ensure that the government processes remain corruption free........ Are the opposition not up to the job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it then you really ought to show it, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands. I'm speechless. There is a god then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eclipse Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 The bizarre thing is that if this bunch of Keystone Cop Politicians actually had the intelligence to play by the book and and fight an election without cheating they would win everytime and save themselves the hassle of disqualifications and bans. Very strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, If you're happy and you know it then you really ought to show it, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands. I'm speechless. There is a god then I asked for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtom Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) But let Democrats busy themselves cleaning up politics, while PTP govern, then the Thai people can all move on together corruption free......... should be interesting times This statement somehow disqualifies you from a serious discussion, I'm afraid. Edit: Couldn't resist to add smiley. Edited July 10, 2011 by longtom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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