Pheu Thai's Wage Hike Doesn't Add Up For Thailand

[FOODLOVER]

"Although Pheu Thai claimed the instant wage rise would boost the wealth of workers, putting more cash in their pockets, the party failed to take into account the pressure from rising prices, which could diminish the value of money. In short, the wage hike may not really boost the purchasing power of people after all."

Yep, I could have told them this if they just asked me. Seems like the super rich may not be for the poor folk after all. When's the hammer coming down on the IPADS or are they going to import them from Dubai? As for the election. You get what you pay for. Hope the Thai people can survive another term with a Shin as their leader.

Edited July 14, 2011 by FOODLOVER

[wolfmanjack]

Very interesting stuff. I'm no economist but what's the solution? It all seems so linked together - do one thing, impacts something else, diagramed out by smart people who end up talking themselves out of everything because it will negatively impact something else.

Seems so upside down that the solution to throw another couple dollars to the poor guy will always have this doomsday result on a global scale; so the folks at the bottom of the pyramid always end up screwed. Never at the top or middle, they carry on same same, making ominous predictions about doing this or that will make us charge more, etc. and hope like hell the election season ends soon = nothing ever changes.

Is Thailand destined to remain as it is?

Just last week, minimum wages were raised.

Generally, there isn't a problem with raising minimum wages. The problem with PTP's plan is they want to raise it by 40-70%.

In most countries, minimum wage increases are usually included with productivity increases. Does the PTP have a plan that includes how productivity can be increased by the wage rises that they are proposing ... or even by a quarter of that?

"The wage level, mutually agreed upon and decided by the tripartite committee members, has so far proven effective in boosting the productivity of workers in line with an increased minimum wage "

I have been in business in thailand for over 11 years and i have not seen any productivity increases even though the wage i pay has doubled over that period of time. The only thing i have noticed is an increase in costs while the customer wants lower prices.

[hyperdimension]

Prime minister-in-waiting Yingluck Shinawatra said during the election campaign that if her party was elected to government, it would raise the minimum wage to Bt300 within 90 days. Yingluck later changed her tune, saying that the raise would be implemented next year, but her frequent statements concerning the minimum wage have already caused confusion.

She is a liar, promising one thing just to get votes ("raise the minimum wage to Bt300 within 90 days") then reneging soon after. She should be disqualified.

There must be a law that punishes political parties for blatantly deceiving the electorate.

Can anyone tell me if there was any fine print on the campaign posters that stated the various conditions of each promise? e.g. conditions like tablet PCs only for Prathom-1 students, 15K THB only for graduates in government positions, minimum wage only for workers in Bangkok and vicinity. Or did Pheu Thai only verbally add the conditions at later stages (near the end of the election and afterward)?

Edited July 15, 2011 by hyperdimension

[Crushdepth]

Classic comment from Plodrasop on the 300 baht salary backflip today: "You have to understand that it was a campaign speech".

There is a nice BKK Post article on other PTP policy backflips this morning, which include:

* the 300 baht minimum wage

* scrapping the oil fund

* the "Megadam" project that was personally announced by Thaksin

* and surprise surprise, reinstatement of the rice mortgage scheme at ridiculously high prices is facing the axe too.

So, for our dear Red Apologists, this is what we sceptics have been trying to tell you all along. "The People" have been screwed from behind. It was all just lies to get elected, and now it's business as usual, except we have a different Elite faction in charge.

[cdnski12]

I realize that this is not the USA. I'm normally pretty conservative but 300 hundred baht per day is barely a livable wage. The minimum wage in the USA varies from state to state with the lowest being $7.20 per hour and the highest being $12.50 per hour. Note that this is per HOUR and not a day. Some food prices in the USA are cheaper than here and some are more expensive. Many US made products are cheaper than similar Thai made products. Many Thai companies make obscene profits at the expense of poorly paid workers. It is past time for Thailand to raise the standard of living for the workers.

The farmers have been cheated for many years by the wealthy middlemen. You may or may not know that the middlemen rarely or never pay the support price for farm products. They usually use the excuse that their quota is filled and that they don't need any more product unless the farmers accept a lower price.

The gap between the haves and have nots definitely needs to be narrowed. This is a first step to narrowing the HUGE gap.

History will show you that the way you narrow the gap is by bringing the wealthy down to the level of the poor. Too often people think this works the other way.

That is not to say I don't agree we should do it. There are many social benefits, including a much more stable society, less envy and animosity between the citizens, etc. The way I would recommend to fix the wealth gap is by abandoning capitalism and embracing distributism. Heavily tax every industry above the minimum size necessary to function. All department stores, grocery stores, 7-11 etc. will go away. The country can get by on mom and pop shops and local community supported establishments. We don't need the labor efficiencies of large corporations. We need full employment more egalitarian options.

The purpose of this is not to make everyone rich and wealthy. Human nature doesn't allow for that, especially not now with soaring energy prices. But a nation built on distributist philosophies would allow resiliency in the face of the coming energy decline and industrial collapse. It would reduce the discontent in the population and be more peaceful in general. And by outlawing corporations and multinationals associated with terminal stages of capitalism, there would be little concentration of wealth in the hands of extremely rich merchants.

No, its not ideal, but it is possible. The existing proposals that I see, the ones with an idea of forcing structures that are designed to concentrate wealth to distribute wealth instead, are doomed to failure. Any effect will be transient if it can be seen at all.

[cdnski12]

The Commies tried this in Russia (1917) & China (1949. It caused enormous collateral damage. Russia & China (each) butchered around 20-30 Million people (that we know of). The Economies totally collapsed. How bizarre, that we have the Germans to thank for promoting Russian Communists and the Japanese for saving the Chinese Communist Party. I've never heard a German or Japanese apologizing for promoting Communism. These were castostophic human experiences; which are best not repeated..

[scorecard]

Very interesting stuff. I'm no economist but what's the solution? It all seems so linked together - do one thing, impacts something else, diagramed out by smart people who end up talking themselves out of everything because it will negatively impact something else.

Seems so upside down that the solution to throw another couple dollars to the poor guy will always have this doomsday result on a global scale; so the folks at the bottom of the pyramid always end up screwed. Never at the top or middle, they carry on same same, making ominous predictions about doing this or that will make us charge more, etc. and hope like hell the election season ends soon = nothing ever changes.

Is Thailand destined to remain as it is?

No, because the time will eventually come when the size of the principaled education middle clases will get a stronger, credible, and rational voice and this will be the catalyst that creates change. History will repeat itself.

Is it tomorrow, very sadly no, but I see more and more such discussion amongst the large number of young Thais that I have contact with. Two in my office (both 24 years old, both went through rough times to keep themselves at uni and are now well educated, not from hiso families ) talk more and more about this.

In both cases both parents are well educated, my colleagues both say their parents voted red simply because of the promises about pork and egg prices and similar items. Both youngsters say they try to talk to their parents about the big picture but it's a total waste of time.

During the initial stages of the PAD rallies (focused on ousting thaksin) many staff from my office attended, they attended because they could see the need to act against a very corrupt immoral man who was gaining a frightening level of control. All of them could explain in depth what was wrong and why it had to be fought. None attended because it was fun. They are 90% middle class people who have worked hard to gain professional employment. None of them have continued their alegiance to the current PAD.

It will take a long time, and unfortunately the likes of thaksin, chalerm, sanoh, sanan and many many more will fight hard and ruthless to keep the current picture alive as long as possibe.

It will take a long time.

Edited July 15, 2011 by scorecard

[pmgthailand]

If Baht 215 for a days work in the rice fields or factories is such a fair deal, why don't some of you yo-yo's take these jobs. Working for less than $10 per day at this hard labor is a joke and insult to the Thai Nation.

If International Companies move to Thailand to exploit the thai labor force they have no HONOR! These are human beings and deserve a fair wage for a fair days work. Just because people are born into poverty

doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as equals. My father told me when I was a child that no man, Not even the President of the United States was a better man than I just because of his title or power or wealth!

I have to agree on this one. I am getting tired of paying western price here in Phuket for less than satisfactory return or service. In the UK properties and rates are more expensive, minimum wage is £5.80 per hour social security and tax, utilities etc. Thailand is a little lower for property prices (rent) and no rates (council tax) that I am aware of, poorly paid employees ( 300 baht per day - that's 1 hour's work for the lowest paid job in the UK) inadequate infrastructure and what their is, is poorly maintained. Any large foreign business's operating in Thailand that object to this 300 baht minimum wage are here profiting off the cheap labour of the Thai people and Burmese migrant workers who have very few rights at all.Because I now find the difference between the UK and Thailand's cost of living is shrinking every year, if not every month. I also feel that you get a higher level of service together with better value for your money in the UK, in addition to your benefits and rights as a consumer. Add to this law and order, safety and security benefits, health and safety etc... when you add it all up, is living in Thailand really as good as we all kid ourselves that it is?

[animatic]

Seems to be turning into

Bait and Switch

in the best P.T. Barnum tradition.

Follow the pea in the shell,

and place your bet where the pea will be when I stop moving.

Oh, I don't stop moving but bet anyway.

There are 10 million born every minute.

Edited July 15, 2011 by animatic

[whatsupdoc]

If Baht 215 for a days work in the rice fields or factories is such a fair deal, why don't some of you yo-yo's take these jobs. Working for less than $10 per day at this hard labor is a joke and insult to the Thai Nation.

If International Companies move to Thailand to exploit the thai labor force they have no HONOR! These are human beings and deserve a fair wage for a fair days work. Just because people are born into poverty

doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as equals. My father told me when I was a child that no man, Not even the President of the United States was a better man than I just because of his title or power or wealth!

I have to agree on this one. I am getting tired of paying western price here in Phuket for less than satisfactory return or service. In the UK properties and rates are more expensive, minimum wage is £5.80 per hour social security and tax, utilities etc. Thailand is a little lower for property prices (rent) and no rates (council tax) that I am aware of, poorly paid employees ( 300 baht per day - that's 1 hour's work for the lowest paid job in the UK) inadequate infrastructure and what their is, is poorly maintained. Any large foreign business's operating in Thailand that object to this 300 baht minimum wage are here profiting off the cheap labour of the Thai people and Burmese migrant workers who have very few rights at all.Because I now find the difference between the UK and Thailand's cost of living is shrinking every year, if not every month. I also feel that you get a higher level of service together with better value for your money in the UK, in addition to your benefits and rights as a consumer. Add to this law and order, safety and security benefits, health and safety etc... when you add it all up, is living in Thailand really as good as we all kid ourselves that it is?

Phuket has about the highest prices (and highest minimum wage!) in all of Thailand. You might want to take a look at remote places in the Isaan or the North. You'll find that the cost of living is far lower there (and so are the wages). In these areas the minimum wage is about 159 baht. Increasing it to 300 baht (even in a time span of a couple of years) will wreck the local economy. I am all for increasing the living conditions and real income of the poor but the huge increase in minimum wage will only lead to high unemployment (and rising inflation on top of that). The poor will get much poorer, the rich a little poorer.

[lungmi]

Punish the middle men and pass more down the line to the workers,

not raise prices wholesale in one swoop by a blanket unsustainable pay hike.

This is not to say I don't want better pay for the poor, not at all,

it means to gradually ramp up minimum wage over a moderate period while

nailing the profetteers, who take the lions share from the products grown by the poor

One way also might be to install and PROTECT farmers Co-ops in many regions,

let the farmers sell direct to the end market, and then let the market pay the

millers themselves, AFTER fair price purchase from the Co-ops.

Oh. I can hear the howling from the middlemen already.

Every time the farmers try for a co-op their leaders get beaten or killed by thugs of vested interests, but if the government sets them up, but lets them have local autonomy and global protection, we can see this working much better than a blanket minimum wage in all sectors.

We have a co-op (rice mill included, biofarming, school for member farmers, saving accounts for members with a little higer interest rate than a normal bank, micro credits, agricole machinery shared ) in a poor rural area. Why? The manager studied abroad the co-op system (Denmark), supported by Dem MPs over the last 20 years, students of Chuan Leek Pai when he was PM.

[TAWP]

If Baht 215 for a days work in the rice fields or factories is such a fair deal, why don't some of you yo-yo's take these jobs. Working for less than $10 per day at this hard labor is a joke and insult to the Thai Nation.

If International Companies move to Thailand to exploit the thai labor force they have no HONOR! These are human beings and deserve a fair wage for a fair days work. Just because people are born into poverty

doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as equals. My father told me when I was a child that no man, Not even the President of the United States was a better man than I just because of his title or power or wealth!

A fair wage...what is that exactly?

[hyperdimension]

Can anyone tell me if there was any fine print on the campaign posters that stated the various conditions of each promise?

I can't see any fine print on the minimum wage poster, so people must have thought that there were no conditions or restrictions on who would qualify:

[animatic]

Classic comment from Plodrasop on the 300 baht salary backflip today: "You have to understand that it was a campaign speech".

There is a nice BKK Post article on other PTP policy backflips this morning, which include:

* the 300 baht minimum wage

* scrapping the oil fund

* the "Megadam" project that was personally announced by Thaksin

* and surprise surprise, reinstatement of the rice mortgage scheme at ridiculously high prices is facing the axe too.

So, for our dear Red Apologists, this is what we sceptics have been trying to tell you all along. "The People" have been screwed from behind. It was all just lies to get elected, and now it's business as usual, except we have a different Elite faction in charge.

Agree 100%

[animatic]

Punish the middle men and pass more down the line to the workers,

not raise prices wholesale in one swoop by a blanket unsustainable pay hike.

This is not to say I don't want better pay for the poor, not at all,

it means to gradually ramp up minimum wage over a moderate period while

nailing the profetteers, who take the lions share from the products grown by the poor

One way also might be to install and PROTECT farmers Co-ops in many regions,

let the farmers sell direct to the end market, and then let the market pay the

millers themselves, AFTER fair price purchase from the Co-ops.

Oh. I can hear the howling from the middlemen already.

Every time the farmers try for a co-op their leaders get beaten or killed by thugs of vested interests, but if the government sets them up, and lets them have local autonomy and global protection, we can see this working much better than a blanket minimum wage in all sectors.

We have a co-op (rice mill included, biofarming, school for member farmers, saving accounts for members with a little higer interest rate than a normal bank, micro credits, agricole machinery shared ) in a poor rural area. Why? The manager studied abroad the co-op system (Denmark), supported by Dem MPs over the last 20 years, students of Chuan Leek Pai when he was PM.

Hi Lungmi,

I did know of your project, but sadly it is the exception and not the rule.

Too often my final paragraph is the norm.

[rixalex]

So, for our dear Red Apologists, this is what we sceptics have been trying to tell you all along. "The People" have been screwed from behind. It was all just lies to get elected, and now it's business as usual, except we have a different Elite faction in charge.

To repeat what i said on another related thread:

It will be interesting to see how many of the red/PTP sympathisers on this board, who have claimed to be sympathetic to that group because of their strong beliefs in improving the lot of the downtrodden poor working classes, react to this election promise back-peddling. One would imagine that were they sincere about their beliefs, and not merely blind followers, they would be expressing something ranging from extreme disappointment to outrage and disgust.

At the moment all i have heard from that "camp" however are a range of excuses, each one as ridiculous as the other. This reveals what they really care about, and it's obviously not the poor.

[lungmi]

Punish the middle men and pass more down the line to the workers,

not raise prices wholesale in one swoop by a blanket unsustainable pay hike.

This is not to say I don't want better pay for the poor, not at all,

it means to gradually ramp up minimum wage over a moderate period while

nailing the profetteers, who take the lions share from the products grown by the poor

One way also might be to install and PROTECT farmers Co-ops in many regions,

let the farmers sell direct to the end market, and then let the market pay the

millers themselves, AFTER fair price purchase from the Co-ops.

Oh. I can hear the howling from the middlemen already.

Every time the farmers try for a co-op their leaders get beaten or killed by thugs of vested interests, but if the government sets them up, and lets them have local autonomy and global protection, we can see this working much better than a blanket minimum wage in all sectors.

We have a co-op (rice mill included, biofarming, school for member farmers, saving accounts for members with a little higer interest rate than a normal bank, micro credits, agricole machinery shared ) in a poor rural area. Why? The manager studied abroad the co-op system (Denmark), supported by Dem MPs over the last 20 years, students of Chuan Leek Pai when he was PM.

Hi Lungmi,

I did know of your project, but sadly it is the exception and not the rule.

Too often my final paragraph is the norm.

A good utopy can be the reality of tomorrow , the principle of hope (Ernst Bloch) http://en.wikipedia....iki/Ernst_Bloch

"I am, but I don't have me, but this is why we will become". Buddhas Teaching more than two thousen years later.

Edited July 17, 2011 by lungmi