Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just get past your PFCU cherry stage, Pib, and you'll be fine!

[Pib]

I'm looking forward to my PenFed merit badge/good conduct medal.

[Pib]

FYI....A new online database devoted to cataloging consumer complaints against credit card companies is set to launch at 8 a.m. ET Tuesday. See this CNN 19 Jun 12 article. Will be interesting to see the type of complaints and against which companies.

[Pib]

This appears to be the link to above mentioned database: Link

[Pinot]

Can anyone tell me if I can get a better rate by using a wire transfer of funds into a Thai bank than I can by just pulling at the best ATM rate? I'm wondering if it is more economical to do a wire transfer of funds into Kashkorn a lump sum for a few months of cash pulling from their ATM? The wire transfer fee from Schwab is $25. No charge on the Schwab ATM fee.

I went out of my way this week to pull from Thanachart Bank ATM when the differential was .05 according to this site. The differential has since closed, but this would add up over a month.

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx

[Heng]

This may be a bit more long term than most folks plan, but for those with half Thai/half American children, your children (and your wife for that matter if you're so inclined) can open accounts in Singapore with their Thai passports with relatively little hassle. A great relatively tax free place with better interest rates to save (funds earned wherever) for their future. Something to consider.

[Langsuan Man]

Can anyone tell me if I can get a better rate by using a wire transfer of funds into a Thai bank than I can by just pulling at the best ATM rate? I'm wondering if it is more economical to do a wire transfer of funds into Kashkorn a lump sum for a few months of cash pulling from their ATM? The wire transfer fee from Schwab is $25. No charge on the Schwab ATM fee.

I went out of my way this week to pull from Thanachart Bank ATM when the differential was .05 according to this site. The differential has since closed, but this would add up over a month.

http://bankexchanger...et/default.aspx

Since Schwab reimburses you for the ATM fee then it would seem that a $25 Wire transfer would be $25 dollars higher than several free ATM pulls even taking into account the exchange rate at the time of the pull(s)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pinot, from the details you provide, strictly in dollars and cents, it sounds like ATM pulls using your Schwab ATM card are going to be more economical.

Re wire transfers, if you're sending from Schwab, they'll have their sending fee. But also your Thai receiving bank will charge their fee in addition for every income wire transfer... usually 0.25% of the amount received with a minimum of 200 and maximum of 500 baht. They'll also typically do the exchange using the bank's TT rate.

Whereas with a Schwab ATM pull, assuming Schwab is reimbursing you for any Thai bank 150 baht foreign card ATM withdrawal fee, there's going to be no net fee charged. And the exchange rate usually will be a bit better than the bank's TT rate for local exchanges.

The only time a wire transfer would make better economic sense is if you needed to move very large amounts in a single transfer, larger than allowed by ATM pulls, or if you needed some legal documentation of the international funds transfer, which a wire transfer would provide.

[Pib]

I have two U.S. Visa debit cards from two different banks and both do not charge any foreign transaction fee...and both reimburse for any ATM fees. I always use AEOM ATMs to avoid my banks having to reimburse me for the Thai banks B150 fee on foreign cards (I don't want to endanger the Golden Goose by causing these ATM fees if possible...and since I live in Bangkok it's easy enough to find an AEON ATM). In fact, there is an AEON ATM in my local Lotus store and this ATM is about 20 steps from a Bangkok Bank outlet...since my Thai bank is Bangkok Bank I just get money from the AEON ATM....take 20 steps and deposit it in my Bangkok Bank account using one of their cash deposit machines....takes me 5 to 10 minutes to complete the whole process of getting money from the U.S. and depositing it to my Bangkok Bank account...piece of cake.

What I have found is the Visa exchange rate is usually within a few stang of the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for wire/ACH/SWIFT transfers...and actually usually the Visa rate is just a little better. Since I end-up with money immediately in-hand from the ATM with absolutely no fees along the line at an exchange rate within a few stang of the TT Buying Rate (as mentioned usually better) I routinely use my Visa debit cards to meet my cash money needs. Sure beats paying a wire transfer fee, waiting 1 to 3 bank business days (or longer) to get the money posted to my account, and even if the home country sending bank didn't charge any sending fee a person still gets the Thai bank receiving/conversion fee usually in the 0.25% (B200 min, B500 max) ballpark.

I haven't done a wire/ACH/SWIFT transfer for quite a while, but such a transfer does come in handy if you need a BIG chunk of money within a few days. But if I didn't have no foreign transaction fee debit cards I would be during free ACH transfers from the U.S. on a periodic basis, getting hit with the Thai bank receiving/conversion fee, and waiting several days for the money to post to my account.

[JimGant]

I went out of my way this week to pull from Thanachart Bank ATM when the differential was .05 according to this site. The differential has since closed, but this would add up over a month.

Actually, the site you reference is misleading when they say "use the TT rate for ATM rate." You'll get the same rate with your Schwab card at each and every ATM machine in Thailand (assuming used in the same time frame, and that Dynamic Currency Conversion is not in effect). What the site is referring to, apparently, is the average TT rate posted will give you a ballpark figure as to the ATM rate you'll get, before any fees.

And, as Pib points out, your Visa Schwab card will actually get you a few satang more than the average TT rate -- I ran the numbers for several months and found Visa cards were about 8 satang, on average, better than the buying TT rate. And, as a current spot check, wired money received at Bangkok Bank on 2 July (AM) would have received a TT rate of 31.50 -- while your Schwab feeless Visa card would have received a 2 July Visa rate of 31.60 (again, this rate would be received at each and every non-DCC ATM machine in Thailand, so trampling around to find the best ATM machine rate makes no sense.)

Using a handy dandy spreadsheet, wiring $10k, costing $25 front end, 500 baht back end, and a TT rate of 30.50 -- your effective rate becomes 30.37. So, yes, your Schwab card, realizing 30.58 (again, 8 satang better than the TT rate) is worth about $70 in your pocket when compared to the same $10k amount wired.

Wiring $20k boosts your effective rate to 30.44 -- which is about what you'd get, on average, using a MasterCard Debit/ATM card (for some reason MC gives a worse rate than Visa -- a fact easily uncovered by data collection, as well as reported in web searches). And, of course, if your large wire hits Thailand just as the baht advances, well, a little serendipity. Unfortunately, this can cut both ways.........Thus, factoring in FX direction remains a crap shoot -- at least to me. But wiring large sums does close the gap with feeless ATM cards -- and if you don't have one of the great cards like Schwab, wiring funds just might be a better option.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In fact, there is an AEON ATM in my local Lotus store and this ATM is about 20 steps from a Bangkok Bank outlet...since my Thai bank is Bangkok Bank I just get money from the AEON ATM....take 20 steps and deposit it in my Bangkok Bank account using one of their cash deposit machines....takes me 5 to 10 minutes to complete the whole process of getting money from the U.S. and depositing it to my Bangkok Bank account...piece of cake.

I do, and have done for a couple years now, exactly the same thing as Pib describes above using any variety of U.S. VISA debit cards to pull from AEON ATMs. All of those VISA cards charge no foreign currency fee, and most would reimburse foreign ATM fees as well if I were to incur any.

But like Pib, I try to avoid incurring those fees because I too have easy access to AEON ATMs and I don't want to have my U.S. bank pay 150 baht every time if were I to be using the Thai commercial bank ATMs that charge the 150 baht fee. AEON ATMs, of course, do not charge that fee.

At most of the mall locations around BKK where there's an AEON ATM located, there's invariably a selection of all the Thai commercial bank branches and their cash deposit machines located nearby. Cash out of the AEON ATM and into the local Thai bank account in a 5 minute transaction that keeps my Thai accounts replenished as necessary. No fees incurred anywhere in the process.

[vagabond48]

While in China last year, I needed about $15k. I have both the Schwab HY checking and savings debit cards. I called them up and requested they increase each card's daily ATM withdrawal to $4K each. Each request is good for 24 hours so I needed to call next day for another similar request. I was able to get the $15K. If I remember, the phone reps are authorized to do this but you might be able to get a higher withdrawal by a supervisor or manager but given the time difference it may not be easy to speak to one timely.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Good report, Vagabond. That matches with prior reports here indicating that Schwab's CSR's have the ability to adjust ATM withdrawal limits on a per request basis, and are willing to do so to accommodate their account holders.

[vagabond48]

Of course, it is possible that the participating ATM bank may have their own maximum daily withdrawal per card which I didn't experience but if that was the case you could find different ATM bank that accepted your card.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

AFAIK, for someone using a Schwab card abroad, the only limit that would apply from the foreign ATM would be the maximum number of 1000 baht bills a particular ATM will dispense per transaction. That number varies by bank and type of machine, although AEON ATMs are reported to have a quite high maximum number of bills per withdrawal capacity.

So, if one had a Schwab card with a high DAILY withdrawal limit, they'd likely be able to utilize most or all of that at a single AEON ATM. The common number of bills at Thai banks ATMs seems to be 25 or so... But even in that case, using a foreign ATM card, there'd be nothing stopping a foreign card user to make multiple, back to back withdrawals up to the maximum daily limit on their home bank card.

The Thai banks have daily limits on the ATM cards they themselves issue. But I don't believe they set any daily limits on the cards issued by other banks. Just the limit on the number of bills allowed per ATM withdrawal.

[longball53098]

Its not just a note limit based on 1,000 baht notes but on all the notes in that ATM. Many machines have multiple cassettes and they also contain 500 and 100 baht notes so the dispense limit is not just an amount but a calculated number of notes in total of all denominations in that machine. So a maximum number of notes is set which is typically 20 or 25 notes. Most ATM note dispensers can actually deliver more than this reliably but the end user sets the limit to avoid problems

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes, I believe that's generally correct... The machine limits are based on the total number of bills dispensed per transaction, of whatever denomination those bills may be.

Although, most ATMs will start by dispensing 1000 baht bills, and only shift to the smaller denominations if the machine has run out of the 1000 baht variety (and thus starts using 500s or 100s in their place) or the user has requested some smaller amount.

That does raise an interesting question about AEON ATMs, though. On their withdrawal screen, unlike some of the Thai commercial bank ATMs, AEON ATMs only show withdrawal amount choices in 1,000 baht amounts.

It seems to me in the past sometime, I've tried to do a X,500 baht withdrawal from an AEON ATM and that was denied, and the screen said I needed to choose only X,000 baht denominations. Which makes me think, AEON machines at least may only dispense 1000 baht bills and not the smaller ones.

[longball53098]

TallGuy, I think you are correct on this.

Its a institution's choice how they operate their ATM network and what they choose to stock their ATM's with.

The ATM/note dispenser is capable of whatever they choose to do. They can dispense food stamps if they wanted to.

The note limitation is a physical limitation of the dispenser. Most dispenser manufacturers allow a max of 100 notes through the delivery throat of the dispenser but the notes must meet a specific spec to limit jams and failed dispenses and downtime.The bank chooses to lower this limit for whatever reasons they determine. But by only allowing 20, 25 or 30 notes per transaction they get a lot more transactions and potentially ATM fees. They also limit their exposure to jams and such

The ATM builder promotes something like 99.9% up-time of the machine but this is based on the end user putting all high quality notes in the machine. If the machine servicing company does not do their job then this up-time decreases.

Most full size ATM cassettes can hold 2,000 to 3,000 notes per cassette. The bigger size ATMs will hold up to 6 cassettes.Again the bank can fill the cans with whatever they choose and via software dispense the notes in any manner that suits them.

The smaller ATMs that sit on the floor in various places have mini type dispensers and cassettes and they have limits on number of notes per can also. These units will only have one or two cassettes depending on the unit so the dispensing possibilities are slightly different.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

An interesting development re the fees that the credit and debit card companies charge to merchants in the U.S. Hard to tell exactly what all this is going to result in, though.

Visa, MasterCard, banks in $7.25 billion retail settlement

By Jessica Dye

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Visa Inc, MasterCard Inc and banks that issue their credit cards have agreed to a $7.25 billion settlement with U.S. retailers in a lawsuit over the fixing of credit and debit card fees in what could be the largest antitrust settlement in U.S. history.

The settlement, if approved by a judge, would resolve dozens of lawsuits filed by retailers in 2005. The card companies and banks would also allow stores to start charging customers extra for using certain credit cards in an effort to steer them toward cheaper forms of payment.

The settlement papers were filed on Friday in Brooklyn federal court.

MORE:

Edited July 14, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Spanking for BAD Capital One... in the first public enforcement action by the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau...

Capital One to pay $210 million in credit card probe

By Alexandra Alper

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Capital One Financial will pay $210 million to resolve charges from U.S. consumer and banking regulators that its vendors misled consumers into paying for extra credit card products.

The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), in its first public enforcement action, said it is requiring the bank to pay a $25 million penalty. Capital One will also pay the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency an additional $35 million penalty, and reimburse affected customers $150 million.

"We are putting companies on notice that these deceptive practices are against the law and will not be tolerated," said CFPB Director Richard Cordray.

MORE:

Edited July 18, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Yes, I believe that's generally correct... The machine limits are based on the total number of bills dispensed per transaction, of whatever denomination those bills may be.

Although, most ATMs will start by dispensing 1000 baht bills, and only shift to the smaller denominations if the machine has run out of the 1000 baht variety (and thus starts using 500s or 100s in their place) or the user has requested some smaller amount.

That does raise an interesting question about AEON ATMs, though. On their withdrawal screen, unlike some of the Thai commercial bank ATMs, AEON ATMs only show withdrawal amount choices in 1,000 baht amounts.

It seems to me in the past sometime, I've tried to do a X,500 baht withdrawal from an AEON ATM and that was denied, and the screen said I needed to choose only X,000 baht denominations. Which makes me think, AEON machines at least may only dispense 1000 baht bills and not the smaller ones.

Yea, on AEON ATMs you are restricted to withdrawing in 1,000 baht increments which the screen states/implies. Today, I tried to withdraw 29.5K baht and when pressing Continue it would just zero-out my entry. I then entered 30,000 baht and it gave me the money.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Another story of apparent Thai bank fraud...this time involving a Thai account holder with SCB.

July 7 from the Pattaya Daily News.

Wonder if we'll ever hear if the woman is reimbursed for her lost funds... From the bank or anywhere else? I seriously doubt it.

Thai law protects bank customers in the event the bank itself fails...but not from crime or fraud on the part of bank staff.

Nonthaburi Millionaire Reports 107 Million Baht Missing From Her Bank Account

A representative of SCB bank went to see the police Crime Suppression Division to report that a Nonthaburi woman millionaire apparently lost 102 million THB in her bank account. The bank revealed that they have stopped the responsible manager from working. The bank also formed a committee to investigate the manager, but could not contact him.

BANGKOK- July 5, 2012 [PDN]; At 3 p.m. the Crime Suppression Division, Mr. Phongsit Chaichatpornsuk, assistant manager of SCB bank, went to see Pol. Col. Prasopchok Prommul, Deputy Commissioner, to give information to the investigating officer.

The case involved a Ms. Uermboon Jansama, age 60, who notified the police to assist in investigating the fact that her deposited money in a SCB bank account, Praram 4 branch, had apparently lost more than 107 million THB in the last several years.

She let the manager of this bank deposit money for her and had believed he took reliable care of her account. Mr. Phongsit said that after the incident occurred, the bank also worried about this matter and set up the committee to investigate and also ordered the manager to stop working.

After inspecting the manager’s account, it was discovered that this manager had more liabilities than assets from doing business. However, for the amount of lost money that the victim first claimed for 150 million THB, he confirmed that the victim informed the bank that she lost only 107 million THB. But bank inspectors found that she was also cheated for 1 million THB, which the bank had already notified to police at the Klongtan police station.

MORE:

Edited July 25, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Honest until caught in a crime.

Bank officials said this manager has been an honest employee for 28 years at the bank...

[4evermaat]

Another story of apparent Thai bank fraud...this time involving a Thai account holder with SCB.

July 7 from the Pattaya Daily News.

Wonder if we'll ever hear if the woman is reimbursed for her lost funds... From the bank or anywhere else? I seriously doubt it.

Thai law protects bank customers in the event the bank itself fails...but not from crime or fraud on the part of bank staff.

Nonthaburi Millionaire Reports 107 Million Baht Missing From Her Bank Account

A representative of SCB bank went to see the police Crime Suppression Division to report that a Nonthaburi woman millionaire apparently lost 102 million THB in her bank account. The bank revealed that they have stopped the responsible manager from working. The bank also formed a committee to investigate the manager, but could not contact him.

BANGKOK- July 5, 2012 [PDN]; At 3 p.m. the Crime Suppression Division, Mr. Phongsit Chaichatpornsuk, assistant manager of SCB bank, went to see Pol. Col. Prasopchok Prommul, Deputy Commissioner, to give information to the investigating officer.

The case involved a Ms. Uermboon Jansama, age 60, who notified the police to assist in investigating the fact that her deposited money in a SCB bank account, Praram 4 branch, had apparently lost more than 107 million THB in the last several years.

She let the manager of this bank deposit money for her and had believed he took reliable care of her account. Mr. Phongsit said that after the incident occurred, the bank also worried about this matter and set up the committee to investigate and also ordered the manager to stop working.

After inspecting the manager’s account, it was discovered that this manager had more liabilities than assets from doing business. However, for the amount of lost money that the victim first claimed for 150 million THB, he confirmed that the victim informed the bank that she lost only 107 million THB. But bank inspectors found that she was also cheated for 1 million THB, which the bank had already notified to police at the Klongtan police station.

MORE:

So the lady continues to bank at the same bank after realizing that she was ripped off several million baht? People come in all the time with small/medium sized backpacks or a few bricks of money to deposit. They sit directly in front of the teller and patiently/attentively wait as everything is carefully counted. Then they sign off on the entire deposit when it is complete. It really sucks during rush hour when several of them may come in at once, but only 1 or 2 tellers available. That's easily 20 minutes with smaller bills. I usually think to myself "don't they have designated times for some of these people to come in and get serviced properly?" Perhaps it depends on the branch. Those mall locations can get flooded quickly, and those smaller 2-3 booth locations get overrun fast. And if the bank representative is chat-friendly, it takes longer. It's not the end of the world, but it does take time to physically count, wrap, etc all those bills (even with the counter machine).

My point is that if you were in the states and you deposit $1000 in cash, but the teller puts $900 on the receipt, and you don't catch it, the end result It's very difficult to prove after the fact. You check your deposit receipt before leaving the counter. A cheque could be re-evaluated later if something was mistyped. The article mentioned that "She [the victim] let the manager of this bank deposit money for her and had believed he took reliable care of her account." This sounds like carelessness on the part of the depositor. It may be inconvenient to wait 40-60 minutes for all of your bricks to be counted properly, but you could always hand it over to me if it's too much for you. If you are feeling a bit disoriented, bring a younger person with you who can more closely look at the bricks as they are being counted/deposited.

My mom taught me from my first w-2 job to write down all of your hours logged separately, and I did so on my wall calendar. i was able to calculate down to the penny the gross amount of every paycheck. You have to be proactive in safeguarding your interests. We can't victimize ourselves indefinitely for lackadaisical behavior on our own part. You want to talk about outright fraud? You are probably familiar with MF Global.....but the much more recent PFGBest fiasco where the owner has tricked regulators for over 20 years and has over $200 million USD of customer segregated funds missing.

.........

FBI agents arrested Wasendorf, 64, at the Iowa City hospital where he has been since trying to commit suicide on Monday. He was charged with making false statements to regulators, but prosecutors said they would seek more charges. He faces "decades in prison", Assistant U.S. Attorney Peter Deegan said.

In the signed statement, left along with a suicide note and released as part of the criminal complaint, Wasendorf said he began forging bank documents after the business he built from his basement risked failing without additional capital. The timeline suggests his deceit lasted almost the entire life of his brokerage.

"I was forced into a difficult decision: Should I go out of business or cheat?" he wrote.

"I guess my ego was too big to admit failure. So I cheated," the note said. It was discovered on Monday in his car outside the company's new Iowa headquarters, where Wasendorf had tried to kill himself by funneling in tailpipe exhaust........

here is a link to a thread with discussion and links to numerous reuters and other articles/video interviews that cover the event. It's too bad the owner didn't finish the job. The CFTC with all the rules in the world will not be able to refund/reimburse the clients their money. But amazingly in Canada, just about all PFG Canada clients will be fully covered thanks to some required insurance fund. The PFG situation really cast a lot of doubt on the whole point of regulation. I did not have any funds with PFG, but did consider funding an account two years ago or so. Something told me to look in a different direction, but I don't remember what exactly distracted me.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Needless to say, the somewhat elderly Thai woman who is the apparent victim in the SCB fraud case didn't exactly handle or keep track of her funds in a prudent way.

To me, the notion of handing over 100 million baht to my local bank manager and just leaving him/her to do whatever with the funds is inconceivable to me... But, then, I'm not Thai. And I have far more general distrust of bankers everywhere, including the Thai ones, than likely was the case of the woman/victim here.

It's always been my experience that no one is going to care more about your money than yourself.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Posted: 05 Nov 2012 07:45 AM PST

ING DIRECT announced some more account changes that are part of the bank's merger into Capital One. As of November 1, 2012, the legal entities of the two banks are officially merged. One change should be appreciated by customers who often travel overseas. ING DIRECT will begin waiving foreign exchange fees on customers' debit card purchases outside the U.S. This includes absorbing the 1% fee charged by MasterCard/Visa. The change is consistent with Capital One's longstanding policy.

http://www.depositac...-customers.html

Edited November 6, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Langsuan Man]

Posted: 05 Nov 2012 07:45 AM PST

ING DIRECT announced some more account changes that are part of the bank's merger into Capital One. As of November 1, 2012, the legal entities of the two banks are officially merged. One change should be appreciated by customers who often travel overseas. ING DIRECT will begin waiving foreign exchange fees on customers' debit card purchases outside the U.S. This includes absorbing the 1% fee charged by MasterCard/Visa. The change is consistent with Capital One's longstanding policy.

http://www.depositac...-customers.html

I wonder if this change will effect Capital One Debit cards and AEON ? Two years ago Cap One changed their "network" from the Plus network to the Cirrus network but AEON would still not accept them

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I don't think this development means any change for the details of Cap One debit cards...

It will mean a change for the fee structure of ING Direct debit cards.

As for AEON ATMs, since I don't use an ING debit card, I'm not sure which card network they currently run on...

[Lancelot]

So now I'm a Capital One customer...

I began with Net Bank around 1999. ING absorbed Net bank around 2007 and I stopped using ING at ATMs abroad (1% service fee.)

Now I use ING to park spare cash, receive a whopping .8% interest, and transfer cash to Schwab. I can withdraw 30,000 baht at Aeon, so it saves trips to the ATM and there is no 150 baht foreign ATM surcharge billed back to Schwab.

Now if I could only change my telephone number at Kasikorn...

[JimGant]

I wonder if this change will effect Capital One Debit cards and AEON ? Two years ago Cap One changed their "network" from the Plus network to the Cirrus network but AEON would still not accept them

Kinda remember this subject being discussed here a few years back. Debit/ATM cards, as opposed to purely ATM cards, have logos. And Aeon machines take both Visa and MasterCard logoed cards, regardless of what network (Plus or Cirrus) may also be displayed on these cards.

However, with a pure ATM card -- which doesn't have a logo -- Cirrus networked cards would not work on an Aeon ATM machine.

Am I remembering this correctly?