Monks Teach Maleness To Thai 'Ladyboys'

[manarak]

LOL, mods, please don't delete too much messages, because they make me laugh!

And men having sex with ladyboys is not MSM as it is defined.

[Nisa]

I don't understand what this gender modification training has to do with Buddhism. More blowhard closet queens in orange trying to stop everybody else's rights to be who and what they want to be. Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line.

How do you get Taliban out of this story???? If anything the families of these boys have sent them there, Monks don't go out kidnap and force them to comply and I did not see in the story about any boys being killed because they didn't comply. Please tell me how you came to this Taliban conclusion

I more interested in wondering how one Temple out in the middle of nowhere that is different (as stated in the OP) from other temples In Thailand leads this poster into condemning all Buddhism in Thailand.

[Gonsalviz]

Males feeling like they are females is NOT the same as gay! Effeminacy is NOT the same as gay!

You're wasting your breath Jing. Save it for something important.

No kidding. Realistically how many versions of non-heterosexuality can a society be expected to keep track of anyway? Should it just not be referred to at all for fear of saying it wrong? That's just PC entanglement serving the same minuscule purpose as the rest of it.

Sorry you can't deal with complications. ONLY Black and white for you, is it? Sounds very lazy to me. Not about PC, about REALITY. You must really have trouble in restaurants with long menus ...

I'll have to agree with the lazy aspect.

[Nisa]

You're wasting your breath Jing. Save it for something important.

No kidding. Realistically how many versions of non-heterosexuality can a society be expected to keep track of anyway? Should it just not be referred to at all for fear of saying it wrong? That's just PC entanglement serving the same minuscule purpose as the rest of it.

Sorry you can't deal with complications. ONLY Black and white for you, is it? Sounds very lazy to me. Not about PC, about REALITY. You must really have trouble in restaurants with long menus ...

I'll have to agree with the lazy aspect.

There are only three (or possibly 4) types of recognized sexuality that don't fall under being a disorder. Hetro, Homo, Bi and Asexuality.

How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality. A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality. If a male identifies as a female then the has a gender identity disorder but a male acting a little fem is actually becoming more popular and a fad now. What do they call them now? Metrosexuals? But lets not pretend this is the same as being a Ladyboy where a male is trying to appear as a female.

And regardless of what people want to believe, a man who continues to seek sex and relationships with another man (a person with male genitals) is not straight and is either Bi or Homo, regardless of how much make-up the other man has on (unless you want to get illogical and talk about men being fooled). By definition you are a man if you have male genitals and female if you have female genitals. Some people can be born with both but again we are then talking about a disorder and not general sexuality. Men who continue to seek relations with Ladyboys with male genitals either are Bisexuals or Homosexual (not fully hetro / straight). Men can claim all they want that they are straight but just enjoys the occasional man-on-man sex but it doesn't change the fact, they are not straight. Certainly people can go through stages in life where they are bi or gay but then change. It is simply a load of crap that one cannot be gay and change to hetro or vice versa .... thought I do believe the change has to be natural and not forced to be real. Example: A number of women choose to be exclusively with women when in college but as they get older, they realize they lose their attraction for other women. This is a perfect example of somebody who was gay (Lesbian) but no longer are. I'm also sure there are many hetros who turned homsexual in their life.

Self identification has nothing to do with sexuality. Who you are sexually and romantically attracted to does. A male who craves sex and relations with other men but claims to be straight is simply in the closet about their bi or homosexuality.

Bottom line is Ladyboys have issues and problems that cause them to want to act as females. It could be financial, it could be in their genetic make-up or a mental health issues or something else. And of course, one of the treatments certainly can be a sex change operation and there certainly is nothing wrong with that. But other therapies that work from counseling to drug therapy is also great for others with this condition (not sexuality). Bottom line (assuming a ladyboy is attracted to other men), if a Ladyboy becomes a women, they are now straight and the condition has been addressed ... if they continue to have male genitals then they are homosexuals.

Maybe these basic concepts will change one day and men on men sex will be considered straight and people born as one sex but feeling like the other is not considered a disorder ... but until then I'll stick with the above accepted definitions.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Nisa

[animatic]

'Jingthing' timestamp='1310794869' post='4562060'

You're wasting your breath Jing. Save it for something important.

No kidding. Realistically how many versions of non-heterosexuality can a society be expected to keep track of anyway? Should it just not be referred to at all for fear of saying it wrong? That's just PC entanglement serving the same minuscule purpose as the rest of it.

Sorry you can't deal with complications. ONLY Black and white for you, is it? Sounds very lazy to me. Not about PC, about REALITY. You must really have trouble in restaurants with long menus ...

I'll have to agree with the lazy aspect.

There are only three (or possibly 4) types of recognized sexuality that don't fall under being a disorder. Hetro, Homo, Bi and Asexuality.

How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality. A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality. If a male identifies as a female then the has a gender identity disorder but a male acting a little fem is actually becoming more popular and a fad now. What do they call them now? Metrosexuals? But lets not pretend this is the same as being a Ladyboy where a male is trying to appear as a female.

And regardless of what people want to believe, a man who continues to seek sex and relationships with another man (a person with male genitals) is not straight and is either Bi or Homo, regardless of how much make-up the other man has on (unless you want to get illogical and talk about men being fooled). By definition you are a man if you have male genitals and female if you have female genitals. Some people can be born with both but again we are then talking about a disorder and not general sexuality. Men who continue to seek relations with Ladyboys with male genitals either are Bisexuals or Homosexual (not fully hetro / straight). Men can claim all they want that they are straight but just enjoys the occasional man-on-man sex but it doesn't change the fact, they are not straight. Certainly people can go through stages in life where they are bi or gay but then change. It is simply a load of crap that one cannot be gay and change to hetro or vice versa .... thought I do believe the change has to be natural and not forced to be real. Example: A number of women choose to be exclusively with women when in college but as they get older, they realize they lose their attraction for other women. This is a perfect example of somebody who was gay (Lesbian) but no longer are. I'm also sure there are many hetros who turned homsexual in their life.

Self identification has nothing to do with sexuality. Who you are sexually and romantically attracted to does. A male who craves sex and relations with other men but claims to be straight is simply in the closet about their bi or homosexuality.

Bottom line is Ladyboys have issues and problems that cause them to want to act as females. It could be financial, it could be in their genetic make-up or a mental health issues or something else. And of course, one of the treatments certainly can be a sex change operation and there certainly is nothing wrong with that. But other therapies that work from counseling to drug therapy is also great for others with this condition (not sexuality). Bottom line (assuming a ladyboy is attracted to other men), if a Ladyboy becomes a women, they are now straight and the condition has been addressed ... if they continue to have male genitals then they are homosexuals.

Maybe these basic concepts will change one day and men on men sex will be considered straight and people born as one sex but feeling like the other is not considered a disorder ... but until then I'll stick with the above accepted definitions.

"How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality.

A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality."

sexuality — n

1. the state or quality of being sexual

2.preoccupation with or involvement in sexual matters

3.the possession of sexual potency

Collins English Dictionary

sexuality definition

: the quality or state of being sexual:

a : the condition of having sex

b : sexual activity

c : expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary,

This last shows you are using too narrow a definition.

Essentially the outward expression of a sexual preference,

such as being a ladyboy, would clearly fall under 'Sexuality'.

You also seem to blow off the point that ladyboys 'usually' have a female brain in a male body causing the disassociation with their physical gender identity.

"if a Ladyboy becomes a women, they are now straight and the condition has been addressed ... if they continue to have male genitals then they are homosexuals."

If their brain says they are female, then which is more important for their sexual identity, their penis or their brains wiring? MRI and CAT scans have show female typical brain layouts, mapping and functions in TS TG patients, quite different from typical male, or gay male brain functioning.

Many would argue that a person is his/her brain, even if their body is non-functional as with quadriplegics, we still say the person is in there because their brain is working not their body. And having a sexuality in your brain doesn't stop even if your sexual organs are removed by accident or with intent.

Some here have argued; born with a penis but attracted to men, then always a male homosexual, later not having a penis not changing that.

So if a ladyboy has a cut they have changed tier bodies to fit their brain design, but if they don't then they are gay males?

There are way to many dichotomies in this argument.

Edited July 19, 2011 by animatic

[Deeral]

Sex or gender is seldom a black and white thing - it is a spectrum and depending towards which end of the spectrum you are on will decide on whether you physically appear male or female.

In between the ends of the spectrum lie many variations on sexuality both physical and mental.

Nature versus Nurture arguments are a bit naive on this......the truth is that lady-boys are each at some point (not necessarily the same pint) on the sexual spectrum and in Thailand the social solution or pressure is to go for the "ladyboy" option. In other countries there are plenty of ladyboys too but their roles in society may be different or indeed how they are accepted.

Only religious cranks thhink they can actually change someones sexualioty - they can of coyrse brainwash some into covering it up - but I very much doubt that this is very healthy option.

Just take a look at the obvious homophobia and partially concealed latent homosexuality amongst the posters on this thread........

[animatic]

yegawds

[soundman]

I have removed derogatory posts and replies.

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Please note that further posting of slurs & degrading comments may lose you your posting privileges.

[VincentRJ]

You guys are really confused. You seem to be living in a black and white world.

The Sexuality of all people is on a spectrum ranging from fundamental heterosexulaity to fundamental homosexuality. There's a huge range of variables in between. At what point someone decides they are 'spiritually' male or female and decides to take the plunge for a sex change, is a personal decision.

I get the impression in Thailand that such a decision may be influenced by economic considerations. This is an area that needs some research.

[animatic]

You guys are really confused. You seem to be living in a black and white world.

The Sexuality of all people is on a spectrum ranging from fundamental heterosexulaity to fundamental homosexuality. There's a huge range of variables in between. At what point someone decides they are 'spiritually' male or female and decides to take the plunge for a sex change, is a personal decision.

I get the impression in Thailand that such a decision may be influenced by economic considerations. This is an area that needs some research.

In general, well said.

I think for a very few getting tits is seen as a money maker,

but not the majority, they are ready to go at least half way anyway.

Most work to get the tits and not the other way round.

Some go on the game to GET the tits, or keep up on hormone payments.

I have been told the deciding factor is often

if they want to return home with or without tits.

After that the pretense of changing back usually is done for.

Edited July 19, 2011 by animatic

[sabaijai]

Several homophobic posts deleted, also comments on moderation. Keep it civil, folks, or the thread will be closed.

[gezzamix]

"Sometimes we give them money to buy snacks but he saved it up to buy mascara,"

What did they think he was going to buy instead - popcorn?

[geriatrickid]

"Sometimes we give them money to buy snacks but he saved it up to buy mascara,"

What did they think he was going to buy instead - popcorn?

Well, there isn't anything gay or effeminate with wearing mascara. Some very masculine males wear it and eyeliner too.

Gender: Male

Race or Ethnicity: White

Sexual orientation: Straight

Occupation:Musician

Nationality: United States

Executive summary: Nine Inch Nails

Trent is 100% hetero. And I am not ashamed to say, I love him, in a manly sort of way.

[Shotime]

"I am not sure what the agenda is, but it seems that this thread is starting to stray quite far off-topic."

Michelle Bachman, perhaps, just lost her chance to run for President (of the US) because, as it turns out, her husband was running a clinic that claimed he could cure homosexuality. This cure was based on faith in G_D. It is against a specific commandment in the Bible. However, G_D was mostly interested in propogating the species, and stopping pedophilia with little boys. Things have changed, but not as far as He's concerned. I guess.

Being gay should be nobody's business except for the people who are gay. It has become almost fashionable, to be gay. I could live if I never had to see another Gay/Lesbian parade/circus. Enough, already.

What's behind it is something I could care less about. The idea of "curing" a gay person, is absurd. Who cares, already.

[Nisa]

Sex or gender is seldom a black and white thing - it is a spectrum and depending towards which end of the spectrum you are on will decide on whether you physically appear male or female.

Actually, gender is seldom NOT black and white. Only a fraction of people on this planet have a gender disorder or have less or more than one type of genitalia. Just because people may be confused as to who they are doesn't change the definitions of what they are.

[Nisa]

"How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality.

A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality."

sexuality — n

1. the state or quality of being sexual

2.preoccupation with or involvement in sexual matters

3.the possession of sexual potency

Collins English Dictionary

sexuality definition

: the quality or state of being sexual:

a : the condition of having sex

b : sexual activity

c : expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary,

This last shows you are using too narrow a definition.

The definition I was using was:

A person's sexual orientation

not any other definition (words often have multiple meanings) .. I am not sure how anybody could misunderstand that. By they way, each definition listed is different, you don't combine all definitions to come up with the meaning of a word.

sex·u·al·i·ty

Noun

2. A person's sexual orientation or preference.

[Nisa]

"How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality.

A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality."

sexuality — n

1. the state or quality of being sexual

2.preoccupation with or involvement in sexual matters

3.the possession of sexual potency

Collins English Dictionary

sexuality definition

: the quality or state of being sexual:

a : the condition of having sex

b : sexual activity

c : expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary,

This last shows you are using too narrow a definition.

The definition I was using was:

A person's sexual orientation

not any other definition (words often have multiple meanings) .. I am not sure how anybody could misunderstand that. By they way, each definition listed is different, you don't combine all definitions to come up with the meaning of a word.

sex·u·al·i·ty

Noun

2. A person's sexual orientation or preference.

PS. As in Homosexuality, Heterosexuality, Bisexuality and Asexuality ....

Heterosexuality is romantic and/or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the opposite sex or gender.

Homosexuality is romantic and/or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender.

Bisexuality is sexual behavior or an orientation involving physical and/or romantic attraction to both males and females

Male: a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cellnuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles

Female: a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries

How many people don't fall into one of the above? Arguing differently is like saying because an individual spider is missing 1-leg that it is no longer an insect because it lacks 6-legs.

Seems very black and white to me unless we either want to pretend what somebody considers themselves, as opposed to what is factual, is part of the definition ... when it is not or that a person born with neither or both male and female traits is anything but extremely rare exception or that there is a place on a birth certificate next to the box Male / Female that says, Other.

There is no Ladyboysexuality, or transgersexuality or iamastraightdudewholovesexwithmensexuality. A man sexually attracted to and wanting romantic relations with another man is either bi or gay depending on their attraction to women.

Having a gender identity issues is NOT a sexuality and can be caused by a number of issues including being born with a disorder. But if you have the defined characteristics of a certain sex, then you fall into the above definitions.

However, I will revise my previous comments where I said a person's sex was defined by genitalia type, and instead use the more accurate definition that it is defined by chromosomes which in turn almost always relates to genitalia type ... but again this is getting into splitting hairs or if a spider is missing a leg is it still an insect.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Nisa

[manarak]

"I am not sure what the agenda is, but it seems that this thread is starting to stray quite far off-topic."

Michelle Bachman, perhaps, just lost her chance to run for President (of the US) because, as it turns out, her husband was running a clinic that claimed he could cure homosexuality. This cure was based on faith in G_D. It is against a specific commandment in the Bible. However, G_D was mostly interested in propogating the species, and stopping pedophilia with little boys. Things have changed, but not as far as He's concerned. I guess.

Being gay should be nobody's business except for the people who are gay. It has become almost fashionable, to be gay. I could live if I never had to see another Gay/Lesbian parade/circus. Enough, already.

What's behind it is something I could care less about. The idea of "curing" a gay person, is absurd. Who cares, already.

If I was american, he would not lose my vote if he just explained it was a way to make money, because he could find enough people willing to pay!!!

:-)

[animatic]

"How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality.

A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality."

sexuality — n

1. the state or quality of being sexual

2.preoccupation with or involvement in sexual matters

3.the possession of sexual potency

Collins English Dictionary

sexuality definition

: the quality or state of being sexual:

a : the condition of having sex

b : sexual activity

c : expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary,

This last shows you are using too narrow a definition.

The definition I was using was:

A person's sexual orientation

not any other definition (words often have multiple meanings) .. I am not sure how anybody could misunderstand that. By they way, each definition listed is different, you don't combine all definitions to come up with the meaning of a word.

sex·u·al·i·ty

Noun

2. A person's sexual orientation or preference.

One was the MEDICAL definitions, versus the common ones.

Both are valid.

[cdnvic]

Off-topic posts removed.

[Nisa]

"How one dresses and acts is not a sexuality.

A male dressing or prancing around like a women is not a sexuality."

sexuality — n

1. the state or quality of being sexual

2.preoccupation with or involvement in sexual matters

3.the possession of sexual potency

Collins English Dictionary

sexuality definition

: the quality or state of being sexual:

a : the condition of having sex

b : sexual activity

c : expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary,

This last shows you are using too narrow a definition.

The definition I was using was:

A person's sexual orientation

not any other definition (words often have multiple meanings) .. I am not sure how anybody could misunderstand that. By they way, each definition listed is different, you don't combine all definitions to come up with the meaning of a word.

sex·u·al·i·ty

Noun

2. A person's sexual orientation or preference.

One was the MEDICAL definitions, versus the common ones.

Both are valid.

Agree 100% that words can have multiple definitions that are valid but only one definition is relevant when taking its use in context. Ignoring the obvious definitions of words can cause unneeded argument, cause confusion and push personal and/or dishonest agendas.

We all know what the words Gay, Bi and Straight mean and we all also have a good grasp on what is considered a male or female. It makes no logical sense to pretend we don't and then push those ideas onto others. One example of doing this is to pretend somebody is straight because they "see themselves as straight" even though they have and enjoy gay relations. I would guess most people have an incorrect view of themselves or have trouble admitting things about themselves, this doesn't change who they are.

By understanding what a man and female is, as well as a Hetro, Homo or Bi sexual is, then we can understand that being a Ladyboy alone doesn't fall into any of these categories. We need to look at their sexual preference to make such judgement. Being a Ladyboy or being attracted to being a Ladyboy cannot alone define a person's sexuality (homo, hetro or Bi).

However, I believe there are questions in terms of what a Ladyboy actually is. Does it mean an outwardly gay men (as most Thais believe), men (have a penis) that present themselves to the public as a women, a person born male who has physically transformed into a female through surgery or something more or less?

From my understand a person born male in Thailand will forever be considered a male while in other countries having a gender reassignment surgery would legally make you the new sex.

I personally think of a Ladyboy as a man (has a penis) presenting themselves as a female and who engages in homosexual sex. I certainly don't believe in any medical or legal need to have a term such as 3rd sex/gender (excluding physical birth defects) but have no problem with its use by or to describe Ladyboys if it makes them happy to use in a social sense.

[endure]

Anyone who's interested would do well to read 'Male Homosexuality in Thailand' or/and 'Lady Boys, Tom Boys, Rent Boys - Male & Female Homosexualities in Contemporary Thailand' by Peter A. Jackson.

[cup-O-coffee]

Does anything really matter?

This article seems to want to actually make the reader believe that the monks have taken to push a form of brain-washing upon clinical cases that have yet to be clinically diagnosed. Hah!

What prompted the monks to even initiate this endeavor. They do not have licenses to practice behavioral, psychiatric or even psychological therapy. Are the boys under aged? Did the parents grant permission? Who admitted these boys, and under what legal form of the law were they required to do this against their consent? Is it now a crime to be feminine? Does listening to an unqualified, unlicensed man, who is dressed in saffron, and illegally practicing therapy, the punishment to fit the crime?

There are too many unanswered questions.

This will do more damage than anything else. These boys aren't murderers and bullies. Leave them alone and move on to the ones who really need toning down (i.e the little jackasses who deal drugs, steal bikes, rape girls, etc.).

Stupid, says I.

Maybe they are using this as a ruse to recruit fresh meat, because they are hard up for some action. What else could it be in light of sound reason and logic? Why single someone out, and antagonize them when they aren't breaking any laws and do not voluntarily admit themselves for re-education? Would someone please put me right?

[lazurus]

Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand.

It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians

Isn't it nice to have a term like homophobia. If someone disagrees with anything gay people do its homophobia. The fear of homos. If your particular moral code doesn't endorse being gay, it doesn't mean you are scared of gay people. If your religion condemns murder are you murderphobic? If your ethical system warns against gluttony are you fatsophobic?

I'm not sure everybody wants Thailand to be more like Sri Lanka, is it really a shining beacon of freedom and tolerance?

[VincentRJ]

Perhaps its time for some of you people to be educated from a Wikipedia article on the subject. I have the impression that the Buddhist religion is historically rather sympathetic to the third-gender concept.

　

Here's the website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

and below are relevant extracts.

　

　

"References to a third sex can be found throughout the various texts of India's three ancient spiritual traditions – Hinduism ,[60] Jainism HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-60"[61] and Buddhism HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-Jackson10996-61"[62] – and it can be inferred that Vedic culture recognised three genders. The Vedas (c. 1500 BC – 500 BC) describe individuals as belonging to one of three separate categories, according to one's nature or prakrti . These are also spelled out in the Kama Sutra (c. 4th century AD) and elsewhere as pums-prakrti (male-nature), stri-prakrti (female-nature), and tritiya-prakrti (third-nature).[63] Various texts suggest that third sex individuals were well known in premodern India, and included male-bodied or female-bodied[64] people as well as intersexuals , and that they can often be recognised from childhood.

　

Here's the reference to Thailand in the Wikipedia article.

　

Thailand

Also commonly referred to as a third sex are the kathoeys (or "ladyboys") of Thailand .[23] However, while a significant number of Thais perceive kathoeys as belonging to a third gender, including many kathoeys themselves, others see them as either a kind of man or a kind of woman.[24] Researcher Sam Winter writes:

"

We asked our 190 [kathoeys] to say whether they thought of themselves as men, women, sao praphet song ["a second kind of woman"] or kathoey. None thought of themselves as male, and only 11 percent saw themselves as kathoey (i.e. ‘non-male’). By contrast 45 percent thought of themselves as women, with another 36 percent as sao praphet song... Unfortunately we did not include the category phet tee sam (third sex/gender); conceivably if we had done so there may have been many respondents who would have chosen that term... Around 50 percent [of non-transgender Thais] see them as males with the mistaken minds, but the other half see them as either women born into the wrong body (around 15 percent) or as a third sex/gender (35 percent)."

[24]

"

In 2004, the

Chiang Mai Technology School allocated a separate restroom for kathoeys, with an intertwined male and female symbol on the door. The 15 kathoey students are required to wear male clothing at school but are allowed to sport feminine hairdos. The restroom features four stalls, but no urinals.[25] "

So, there! Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Shotime]

"If I was american, he would not lose my vote if he just explained it was a way to make money, because he could find enough people willing to pay!!!

:-)"

It's a she I was talking about, and there are other things about her that are discomforting.

Where are you from, anyway? They don't like to make money there?

I once met a man from NY who was from that country where Jimmy Jones committed himself and anyone near him to mass suicide (Guinie?). He told me that everyone from his country was gay except for himself and his Mother and Father.

It seems some people are still struggling with their sexual orientations. Stereotypes make things a lot easier.

[Nisa]

Perhaps its time for some of you people to be educated from a Wikipedia article on the subject. I have the impression that the Buddhist religion is historically rather sympathetic to the third-gender concept.

Sexual Misconduct clearly goes against Buddhist teachings. There is no definitive definition for Sexual Misconduct in the teachings and it is left up to ones owns views and culture to determine this. Just as there is no definition for how to treat others in the concept of "do unto others as you want done to you".

Many Thais believe the karma from past lives results in people becoming Ladyboys.

Keep in mind there are different sects of Buddhism but that the Dalai Lama has stated that homosexual acts do fall under Sexual Misconduct. However, he also believes in equal rights for all, including homosexuals.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand.

It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians

Isn't it nice to have a term like homophobia. If someone disagrees with anything gay people do its homophobia. The fear of homos. If your particular moral code doesn't endorse being gay, it doesn't mean you are scared of gay people. If your religion condemns murder are you murderphobic? If your ethical system warns against gluttony are you fatsophobic?

I'm not sure everybody wants Thailand to be more like Sri Lanka, is it really a shining beacon of freedom and tolerance?

Are those who call a Jew Homophobic because of their biblical beliefs on homosexuals anti-semites?

Phobia would mean an "extreme dislike' or "irrational fear" but sadly it is used, just like the term anti-semite and many others, to try to shut-up people whose views are not liked by certain groups. Preaching or speaking in a hate filled way towards others is generally never a good thing (and an indication of being phobic) but people should be able to speak in respectful way to express their views even if they differ from your own. Trying to shut people up or expressing intolerance towards them usually only causes more resentment/intolerance towards a people or groups.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Nisa

[Shotime]

To gay or not to gay?

[SteeleJoe]

Isn't it nice to have a term like homophobia. If someone disagrees with anything gay people do its homophobia. The fear of homos. If your particular moral code doesn't endorse being gay, it doesn't mean you are scared of gay people. If your religion condemns murder are you murderphobic? If your ethical system warns against gluttony are you fatsophobic?

Phobia would mean an "extreme dislike' or "irrational fear" but sadly it is used, just like the term anti-semite and many others, to try to shut-up people whose views are not liked by certain groups. Preaching or speaking in a hate filled way towards others is generally never a good thing (and an indication of being phobic) but people should be able to speak in respectful way to express their views even if they differ from your own. Trying to shut people up or expressing intolerance towards them usually only causes more resentment/intolerance towards a people or groups.

There's no question that peope often too easily and far too gratuitously toss around words like "racist, "anti-semite","sexist", "antiAmerican", "warmonger" (by many, not only you Nisa) and "homophobe" among others, in lieu of an argument. But these words do describe real things and they sometimes apply.

The semantic argument against the use of Homophobia is a common one but fallacious and specious.

First of all, everyone knows what's meant by it -- an extreme prejudice against homosexuals.

Secondly, the dictionaries are full of words whose meanings differ widely from what their various parts indicate and/or words which have evolved in meaning. Is a xenophobe afraid of foreigners?

Third, bigotry of whatever stripe is believed by many -- myself among them -- to be very often if not always based on a deep seated fear and ignorance.

Nisa, you've been known to use Wiki as a source I believe so perhaps you won't object to my laziness:

Homophobia is a term used to refer to a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian andgay and in some cases bisexual, transgender people and behaviour although these are usually covered under biphobia and transphobia. Intersex and asexual people are also sometimes included. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear.^[1][2][3] Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination^[1][2] and violence on the basis of a perceived homosexual or in some cases any non-heterosexual orientation. In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."^4]

Terms for prejudice or discrimination

A number of terms with the suffix -phobia are used non-clinically but have gained public acceptance, though they are often considered buzzwords. Such terms are primarily understood as negative attitudes towards certain categories of people or other things, used in ananalogy with the medical usage of the term. Usually these kinds of "phobias" are described as fear, dislike, disapproval, prejudice, hatred,discrimination, or hostility towards the object of the "phobia". Often this attitude is based on prejudices and is a particular case of mostxenophobia. These non-clinical phobias are typically used as labels cast on someone by another person or some other group.