Building A House

[fredob43]

Hi Guys

What I've got installed is a "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter". Seems to do the trick as my missus has put it to the test on a couple of occasions!

Sound's interesting not something kinky is it. If it's not to much bother how does it work, and how do you fit it. I'll go to my shop and try and sort something out tomorrow. Thank's to both of you.

[AmeriThai]

Hi Guys

What I've got installed is a "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter". Seems to do the trick as my missus has put it to the test on a couple of occasions!

Sound's interesting not something kinky is it. If it's not to much bother how does it work, and how do you fit it. I'll go to my shop and try and sort something out tomorrow. Thank's to both of you.

Here are some links that might help understand GFCI. There are a number of YouTube vids on the subject.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10136&minisite=10026

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

[fredob43]

Hi Guys

What I've got installed is a "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter". Seems to do the trick as my missus has put it to the test on a couple of occasions!

Sound's interesting not something kinky is it. If it's not to much bother how does it work, and how do you fit it. I'll go to my shop and try and sort something out tomorrow. Thank's to both of you.

Here are some links that might help understand GFCI. There are a number of YouTube vids on the subject.

http://www.leviton.c...&minisite=10026

http://www.howstuffw...question117.htm

Thank's a bunch for all your reply's. But this does not sort out the problem of lightning. Have gone through all the link's they all say earth rod in ground and earth wire to where ever. Strait forward. Then you have a bolt of lightning that hit's your ground and bingo Crisp. EG Shower earth wire to the ground rod, Computer via switch to rod, you get a lightning strike up come's the power and as it doesn't go through any cut out system it will go strait into your shower unit and blow it, and you if you are showering to see Buddha. Same with comp: This happened to a friend of mine who had two shower's unit's into the same rod. As luck would have it no one was there at the time. Both shower's MELTED and all the wire's right back to the shower circuit breaker switch, and lot's more after that. N/B his main's circuit breaker cut out didn't. Not designed to. What is needed is some form of cut out between the two thing's, rod and appliance in the earth wire some type of fuse maybe. Going to my shop today to see what they say. But I can guess the reply NO NEED NOT HAPPEN. Update later.

[Kwasaki]

prodriver.

" Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter "

That is an RCB ( residual circuit breaker ) which essential with the two pole electric system you get into Thai buildings.

Your shower will also have ELB ( earth leakage breaker ).

Fredo.

EG Shower earth wire to the ground rod, Computer via switch to rod, you get a lightning strike up come's the power and as it doesn't go through any cut out system it will go strait into your shower unit and blow it, and you if you are showering to see Buddha.

Both shower's MELTED and all the wire's right back to the shower circuit breaker switch, and lot's more after that. N/B his main's circuit breaker cut out didn't.

This would of been most interesting to examine, the chap he used was in no way a trained electrician.

If you have your earthing house system correctly set up and connected to the showers earth connection which has a ELB ( earth circuit breaker ) via your electrical supplied two pole connection through the showers on/off safety breaker switch which is connected to a MCB ( miniature circuit breaker ) on the mains board which connected through the RCB or RCCB that has been connected to the main incoming supply of electric to the building it wouldn't happen.

That reminds of that bones song the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone etc etc. .

[prodriver]

Sorry 'fredob43' I can't really explain how it works as I have a mental block when it comes to anything electrical. I've got individual circuit breakers to each of my aircon units and the same goes for each of my shower units. Then I have the main junction box with a bank of breakers and wired inline to this is the GFCI. Does that make sense?

Whilst we are on the subject of house building, my exterior walls are almost all cavity wall. This flummoxed the builder at first when I told him what I wanted. I've not come across anyone else who has this here in Thailand. Surely I can't be unique in Thailand with this? Measurement from exterior of wall to interior is about 9 inches. It certainly works as when I first had the house built I had an integral garage which didn't have a cavity wall. I have since built a separate garage and converted the integral garage into a utility room. I can really feel the difference in temperature when I go from the utility room back into the main house.

[Kwasaki]

Sorry 'fredob43' I can't really explain how it works as I have a mental block when it comes to anything electrical. I've got individual circuit breakers to each of my aircon units and the same goes for each of my shower units. Then I have the main junction box with a bank of breakers and wired inline to this is the GFCI. Does that make sense?

So you plug things in when you want to do something. :lol:

[AmeriThai]

Thank's a bunch for all your reply's. But this does not sort out the problem of lightning. Have gone through all the link's they all say earth rod in ground and earth wire to where ever. Strait forward. Then you have a bolt of lightning that hit's your ground and bingo Crisp. EG Shower earth wire to the ground rod, Computer via switch to rod, you get a lightning strike up come's the power and as it doesn't go through any cut out system it will go strait into your shower unit and blow it, and you if you are showering to see Buddha. Same with comp: This happened to a friend of mine who had two shower's unit's into the same rod. As luck would have it no one was there at the time. Both shower's MELTED and all the wire's right back to the shower circuit breaker switch, and lot's more after that. N/B his main's circuit breaker cut out didn't. Not designed to. What is needed is some form of cut out between the two thing's, rod and appliance in the earth wire some type of fuse maybe. Going to my shop today to see what they say. But I can guess the reply NO NEED NOT HAPPEN. Update later.

Glad it helped clarify things a bit since you were wondering about it.

[fredob43]

Sorry 'fredob43' I can't really explain how it works as I have a mental block when it comes to anything electrical. I've got individual circuit breakers to each of my aircon units and the same goes for each of my shower units. Then I have the main junction box with a bank of breakers and wired inline to this is the GFCI. Does that make sense?

Whilst we are on the subject of house building, my exterior walls are almost all cavity wall. This flummoxed the builder at first when I told him what I wanted. I've not come across anyone else who has this here in Thailand. Surely I can't be unique in Thailand with this? Measurement from exterior of wall to interior is about 9 inches. It certainly works as when I first had the house built I had an integral garage which didn't have a cavity wall. I have since built a separate garage and converted the integral garage into a utility room. I can really feel the difference in temperature when I go from the utility room back into the main house.

Thank's, does it make sense, answer just about. But a circuit breaker is just that a circuit breaker. It's not an earth. I have the same set up's with the main's board. Air con's: and shower's. Yes my shower's (Both German one's) also have ELB's but when you open the front there it is in large writing, Regardless of the safety feature's this shower has it still MUST be earthed. And I agree, the story's I have heard of peep's getting electrocuted here while taking a shower doesn't bare thinking about. The cut out's/breaker's that are fitted on shower's are 30amp by the time they kick in your dead.

Right update on my trip to electric shop. In I go and explain what I think I need.... Reply yes good idea, but know one here does that as not need.... Then I told them about my chum...... Reply he very unlucky as it's NEVER happened before EVER...... That I find very unlikely..... Well you can put an inline fuse in.....Oh now we are getting some ware right what do I need. As I have two earth spike's one to comp, one to the shower's I took two they are made by BF the one's I got are E16 30amp 600w but you put in what ever porcelain fuse you want, from 2amp to 30amp (They have a coloured top if it go's dark it's buggered) All you do is break the earth wire and insert the fuse, and your away. N/B I got a box that it fit's in. Well that's what they said TIT so who know's, I ask what amp fuse's they thought I would need.... reply wait for it UP TO YOU. I took pot luck and have at the moment got 6amp fuse's in them still working on that one, might up it to 15amp. If it work's Buddha know's but it's got to be better that a wire just into a stake. Another update when ALL my stuff burn's to a crisp. If anyone would like to comment your more than welcome. Tell me what a plank of wood I am I don't care. We are all here to live "hopefully" and learn. It make's such a nice change to get post's that are sensible from knowledgeable peep's for a change. Once again thank's for all the reply's.

Edited September 1, 2011 by fredob43

[Kwasaki]

Well I give up trying to explain, and if anyone is reading don't use GFCI units unless you have a full earthing system throughout the house they need earth to support the system. RCB or RCCB is the thing to use on two pole electricity supply in Thailand.

As for a lightning protection system that is done in conjuction with the earthing ground rods.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Kwasaki

[CharlieH]

If you have an EARTH LEAKAGE CIRCUIT BREAKER, ELCB, in your main box there shouldnt be any problem. (RCD is the other terminology)

It seems you are confusing things a little, the ELCB works in milli-amps, and the slightest leakage by whatever means to earth and the whole power grid in the house is shut down.

This is attached to the long copper spike that goes into the ground. if lightening hits the ground and hence the copper rod its not going anywhere as again the breaker sensitive to milli-amps will break any connection to the mainboard.

Kwasaki explanation in post 64 is spot on.

Edited September 7, 2011 by CharlieH

[Kwasaki]

If you have an EARTH LEAKAGE CIRCUIT BREAKER, ELCB, in your main box there shouldnt be any problem. (RCD is the other terminology)

It seems you are confusing things a little, the ELCB works in milli-amps, and the slightest leakage by whatever means to earth and the whole power grid in the house is shut down.

This is attached to the long copper spike that goes into the ground. if lightening hits the ground and hence the copper rod its not going anywhere as again the breaker sensitive to milli-amps will break any connection to the mainboard.

Kwasaki explanation in post 64 is spot on.

Thanks for back up because I'm concerned that guys here are making things more dangerous for themselves and there families.

Most rural and village houses only have electricity for lights, running a fan and a TV.

Mr Flangdangling man comes along has a house built, sticks in a number of air - con units in, computer, microwave oven, freezer, toasters, electric kettle and maybe some other household equipment using up to10amp usage.

Then unknowingly is sitting in a house with no earth system and only a distribution board if his lucky.

With the help of " Crossy " he gave me a site to go to and it is an excellent read, and will help you check or get your house up to a reasonable standard.

There is fredob43 who has connected breakers between his earth rod and the earth shower circuit.

Here's snippet from the site : -

It is vitally important that the cable between the earth rod and the main earth bar be a single, unbroken length. It is not permitted to have any form of joint in a ground cable.

Thanks again to "Crossy " here's the link :- http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

[fredob43]

If you have an EARTH LEAKAGE CIRCUIT BREAKER, ELCB, in your main box there shouldnt be any problem. (RCD is the other terminology)

It seems you are confusing things a little, the ELCB works in milli-amps, and the slightest leakage by whatever means to earth and the whole power grid in the house is shut down.

This is attached to the long copper spike that goes into the ground. if lightening hits the ground and hence the copper rod its not going anywhere as again the breaker sensitive to milli-amps will break any connection to the mainboard.

Kwasaki explanation in post 64 is spot on.

Thank's for that but your place has more than likely got the main box earthed and an earth wire running every ware. 90% of place's here have not. I for one have two wire's going every where. So I'm down to earthing what ever like the shower's via the rod. Both my shower's have ELCB but they don't go any ware near the earth. If you have a lightning strike the power will come strait into the shower's via the earth connection and presto your buggered that's just what happened to a friend of mine. As I have said it "melted" shower's+++ Maybe I'm thick. But that's the way I see it. I'm now down to having all the wiring changed and start afresh, as I cant see any other way out. But I'm willing to learn.

[Kwasaki]

If you have an EARTH LEAKAGE CIRCUIT BREAKER, ELCB, in your main box there shouldnt be any problem. (RCD is the other terminology)

It seems you are confusing things a little, the ELCB works in milli-amps, and the slightest leakage by whatever means to earth and the whole power grid in the house is shut down.

This is attached to the long copper spike that goes into the ground. if lightening hits the ground and hence the copper rod its not going anywhere as again the breaker sensitive to milli-amps will break any connection to the mainboard.

Kwasaki explanation in post 64 is spot on.

Thank's for that but your place has more than likely got the main box earthed and an earth wire running every ware. 90% of place's here have not. I for one have two wire's going every where. So I'm down to earthing what ever like the shower's via the rod. Both my shower's have ELCB but they don't go any ware near the earth. If you have a lightning strike the power will come strait into the shower's via the earth connection and presto your buggered that's just what happened to a friend of mine. As I have said it "melted" shower's+++ Maybe I'm thick. But that's the way I see it. I'm now down to having all the wiring changed and start afresh, as I cant see any other way out. But I'm willing to learn.

I have two wires going everywhere too but you can get over it simply enough, maybe not a proper earth system, even then running an extra earth wire and changing sockets will surfice if your existing wiring is good enough.

Sorry but your friend's wiring had to be wrong and it is more than likely his is pulling your leg, frankly I do not believe him.

Look at this link http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

[fredob43]

If you have an EARTH LEAKAGE CIRCUIT BREAKER, ELCB, in your main box there shouldnt be any problem. (RCD is the other terminology)

It seems you are confusing things a little, the ELCB works in milli-amps, and the slightest leakage by whatever means to earth and the whole power grid in the house is shut down.

This is attached to the long copper spike that goes into the ground. if lightening hits the ground and hence the copper rod its not going anywhere as again the breaker sensitive to milli-amps will break any connection to the mainboard.

Kwasaki explanation in post 64 is spot on.

Thank's for that but your place has more than likely got the main box earthed and an earth wire running every ware. 90% of place's here have not. I for one have two wire's going every where. So I'm down to earthing what ever like the shower's via the rod. Both my shower's have ELCB but they don't go any ware near the earth. If you have a lightning strike the power will come strait into the shower's via the earth connection and presto your buggered that's just what happened to a friend of mine. As I have said it "melted" shower's+++ Maybe I'm thick. But that's the way I see it. I'm now down to having all the wiring changed and start afresh, as I cant see any other way out. But I'm willing to learn.

I have two wires going everywhere too but you can get over it simply enough, maybe not a proper earth system, even then running an extra earth wire and changing sockets will surfice if your existing wiring is good enough.

Sorry but your friend's wiring had to be wrong and it is more than likely his is pulling your leg, frankly I do not believe him.

Look at this link http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

[fredob43]

I can assure you my friend was not pulling my leg I went and saw it, as he only live's a few km from me. One shower had just melted and dripped over the floor, the other was much the same but had had a small fire. All the ceiling's and wall's were black he had to have both the bathroom's redone. As far as wiring go's he had the same set up as mine. To-wit two wire's P/N from his main's box via circuit breaker's going to a 32amp cut out on the outside of the bathroom's then into the shower's and an earth wire going to a stake into the ground. I don't know how much power come from a lightning bolt but it's bloody big, and as said it will come in via the rod to the earth side of the shower. It wont go through anything else cut out ELCB and the like's. They only work off the main's side of the unit. I'm sorry but your link does not cover it. Just look in your shower and at the earth bit follow the wire and if it go's strait to the rod you can/will have a problem. As there's bugger all to stop the power from a bolt getting to it. If you think I'm wrong so be it, but I have seen what it dose. And as I said before if your having a shower then you get a bolt your DEAD. So you can believe what you like I don't happen to think it take's the brains of jobe to work out. This is bloody serious stuff. I don't know the answer but it sure isn't an earth rod direct into the shower, or any other thing come to that. Think on this, stick a grounding rod in the ground attach a wire and when there's lightning about go hold onto the wire. Would you do it ??? I don't think so, well that's just what you shower is doing.

Edited September 7, 2011 by fredob43

[fredob43]

I can assure you my friend was not pulling my leg I went and saw it, as he only live's a few km from me. One shower had just melted and dripped over the floor, the other was much the same but had had a small fire. All the ceiling's and wall's were black he had to have both the bathroom's redone. As far as wiring go's he had the same set up as mine. To-wit two wire's P/N from his main's box via circuit breaker's going to a 32amp cut out on the outside of the bathroom's then into the shower's and an earth wire going to a stake into the ground. I don't know how much power come from a lightning bolt but it's bloody big, and as said it will come in via the rod to the earth side of the shower. It wont go through anything else cut out ELCB and the like's. They only work off the main's side of the unit. I'm sorry but your link does not cover it. Just look in your shower and at the earth bit follow the wire and if it go's strait to the rod you can/will have a problem. As there's bugger all to stop the power from a bolt getting to it. If you think I'm wrong so be it, but I have seen what it dose. And as I said before if your having a shower then you get a bolt your DEAD. So you can believe what you like I don't happen to think it take's the brains of jobe to work out. This is bloody serious stuff. I don't know the answer but it sure isn't an earth rod direct into the shower, or any other thing come to that. Think on this, stick a grounding rod in the ground attach a wire and when there's lightning about go hold onto the wire. Would you do it ??? I don't think so, well that's just what you shower is doing.

Just looked it up if any one want's to know 1 bolt of lightning can contain up to 1 BILLION Volt's. How do you think your shower is going to fare if it cop's one of those. Edited September 7, 2011 by fredob43

[Kwasaki]

There are many sites on lightning, expensive and cheap ways to protect ones self.

Other electrical sites are a good read and always they seem to go around lightning protection.

Maybe one of these would be handy.

http://www.thailandguru.com/grounding-earthing-electrical.html

http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/housing/surge/where.htm

Edited September 8, 2011 by Kwasaki

[Brissance]

If you have an EARTH LEAKAGE CIRCUIT BREAKER, ELCB, in your main box there shouldnt be any problem. (RCD is the other terminology)

It seems you are confusing things a little, the ELCB works in milli-amps, and the slightest leakage by whatever means to earth and the whole power grid in the house is shut down.

This is attached to the long copper spike that goes into the ground. if lightening hits the ground and hence the copper rod its not going anywhere as again the breaker sensitive to milli-amps will break any connection to the mainboard.

Kwasaki explanation in post 64 is spot on.

Thank's for that but your place has more than likely got the main box earthed and an earth wire running every ware. 90% of place's here have not. I for one have two wire's going every where. So I'm down to earthing what ever like the shower's via the rod. Both my shower's have ELCB but they don't go any ware near the earth. If you have a lightning strike the power will come strait into the shower's via the earth connection and presto your buggered that's just what happened to a friend of mine. As I have said it "melted" shower's+++ Maybe I'm thick. But that's the way I see it. I'm now down to having all the wiring changed and start afresh, as I cant see any other way out. But I'm willing to learn.

I have two wires going everywhere too but you can get over it simply enough, maybe not a proper earth system, even then running an extra earth wire and changing sockets will surfice if your existing wiring is good enough.

Sorry but your friend's wiring had to be wrong and it is more than likely his is pulling your leg, frankly I do not believe him.

Look at this link http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

Sorry to but in, I've been reading this thread with interest as I am presently having some construction work done myself. However my reason for butting in is that I share Kawasakis concerns about safety.

A lightning strike will not leap up an earth line of a (correctly installed) grounding rod as the strike has already hit ground. So if what was said is correct, Fredobs friend must have had a faulty installation. A poor installation causes the lightning to dissipate it's energy (charge) over a greater area if the energy were coming from the earth line. Lightning energy from a strike will track around more until it dissipates in poor earth conditions.

The most likely cause of the said damage would be a lightning induced surge of the mains supply, although I am surprised that was the only damage to electrical/electronic systems in the house. I very much doubt that anything else which was plugged in at the time survived, albeit the damage may not have been as catastrophic. The failure of the shower units would most likely be due to the destruction of the insulators within them and given the earth connection the induced energy would then flow through those units to earth until the energy dissipated or was removed.

In safety terms a good earthing system is extremely important where electrical equipment is used. Indeed many safety devices/ features depend on one. Be it in the home or in larger structures. A good installation will not induce excessive transients of equipment destroying capability. Even if it did, items such as 16A breakers would not stop it. Putting such a device in an earth line is sheer folly. If it trips for any reason your earth isn't connected. This is far more likely to kill you than any lightning strike.

With regards to surge suppression: Suppressors can be fitted but require an earth to operate. There are modern suppressors which fit to the DIN rail of a distribution box. If I had serious concerns about lightning induced damage I would concentrate my attention on these. I would also be fitting lightning conductors to my home.

There are qualified and reputable electricians (Thai) in Thailand anyone should consult one if they are in any way unsure about electrical regulations. Never use the odd-jobbing farmers.

[fredob43]

I can assure you you are not butting in the more the merrier. I have read your post with interest, but I think I must point out something I omitted to put in earlier post. That was the power 32amp switch circuit breaker was turned off, it is only turned on when they take a shower. So no power was going to the shower's and the only thing in his house that has an earthing rod "1"x1.5mt are the shower's. They were in a restaurant at the time and they had had an electric storm. On getting back to the house they found the damage. Apart from the shower's all the wire's were burnt out right back to the C/B it even buggered those. Nothing else in the house had a problem. So I just surmised in my ignorance, it had to be Lightning. Well you tell me what else could it have been. I had been sh/tting myself every time we have a storm. I know what I have done is not correct. But I would sooner have tried something than just leaving it to Buddha. And a couple of crossed finger's.

[Brissance]

I can assure you you are not butting in the more the merrier. I have read your post with interest, but I think I must point out something I omitted to put in earlier post. That was the power 32amp switch circuit breaker was turned off, it is only turned on when they take a shower. So no power was going to the shower's and the only thing in his house that has an earthing rod "1"x1.5mt are the shower's. They were in a restaurant at the time and they had had an electric storm. On getting back to the house they found the damage. Apart from the shower's all the wire's were burnt out right back to the C/B it even buggered those. Nothing else in the house had a problem. So I just surmised in my ignorance, it had to be Lightning. Well you tell me what else could it have been. I had been sh/tting myself every time we have a storm. I know what I have done is not correct. But I would sooner have tried something than just leaving it to Buddha. And a couple of crossed finger's.

No damage at all before the breaker!!!!! There's the clue, maybe.

If there was no damage before the breaker or even to the breaker itself then the energy must not have originated from the mains supply side. Was the house hit by the strike, or was the strike very close to the house?

With a direct hit or a very near miss there can be an almost instantaneous and massive increase in ground voltage, of short duration, in the vicinity. This can affect the electrical earthing system through pipework or an earth spike. This scenario would induce a voltage surge which could cause the damage you saw. The effect is the same as for the mains borne transient. The preventative action is much the same also. However, the device (or devices) are less likely to

give adequate protection in a direct hit scenario.

The condition of the ground and how well the grounding point is installed can also affect susceptability to this effect. So, it could also have been a poor earth which caused the problem. Don't forget that.

Most domesti distribution boxes I have seen in Thailand are; square D. There's also one or two; BT CINO. Both companies offer plug in Surge Protection Devices (SPD's) for their boxes. Check their web catalogues

for what's available.

I'm not at that stage with my current project, but I'll be taking a look at fitting these myself shortly.

By the way, from your evidence your reasoning was on the money. However, your action was a little erratic. Take those stupid breakers out of the earth system before someone dies. The survival of the 32A breaker was commensurate with good luck. A lightning induced transient can carry; 6kV and 500A which it would not survive even if they were open at the time. In an earth circuit open circuit is useless.

8226-0004.pdf

[fredob43]

I can assure you you are not butting in the more the merrier. I have read your post with interest, but I think I must point out something I omitted to put in earlier post. That was the power 32amp switch circuit breaker was turned off, it is only turned on when they take a shower. So no power was going to the shower's and the only thing in his house that has an earthing rod "1"x1.5mt are the shower's. They were in a restaurant at the time and they had had an electric storm. On getting back to the house they found the damage. Apart from the shower's all the wire's were burnt out right back to the C/B it even buggered those. Nothing else in the house had a problem. So I just surmised in my ignorance, it had to be Lightning. Well you tell me what else could it have been. I had been sh/tting myself every time we have a storm. I know what I have done is not correct. But I would sooner have tried something than just leaving it to Buddha. And a couple of crossed finger's.

No damage at all before the breaker!!!!! There's the clue, maybe.

If there was no damage before the breaker or even to the breaker itself then the energy must not have originated from the mains supply side. Was the house hit by the strike, or was the strike very close to the house?

With a direct hit or a very near miss there can be an almost instantaneous and massive increase in ground voltage, of short duration, in the vicinity. This can affect the electrical earthing system through pipework or an earth spike. This scenario would induce a voltage surge which could cause the damage you saw. The effect is the same as for the mains borne transient. The preventative action is much the same also. However, the device (or devices) are less likely to

give adequate protection in a direct hit scenario.

The condition of the ground and how well the grounding point is installed can also affect susceptability to this effect. So, it could also have been a poor earth which caused the problem. Don't forget that.

Most domesti distribution boxes I have seen in Thailand are; square D. There's also one or two; BT CINO. Both companies offer plug in Surge Protection Devices (SPD's) for their boxes. Check their web catalogues

for what's available.

I'm not at that stage with my current project, but I'll be taking a look at fitting these myself shortly.

By the way, from your evidence your reasoning was on the money. However, your action was a little erratic. Take those stupid breakers out of the earth system before someone dies. The survival of the 32A breaker was commensurate with good luck. A lightning induced transient can carry; 6kV and 500A which it would not survive even if they were open at the time. In an earth circuit open circuit is useless.

I don't know if I made it clear as last night I had had three or four Tiger beer's. But both the 32amp breaker's where buggered. All the wire before them was Ok. We don't know if the strike, as I believe, was near the earth stake as said he was out at the time. But more than likely hit the ground and dissipated. Who know's. His earth stake is a 1.5mt copper one with clamp at the top to connect the wire, and it was in the ground with about 15cm or 6" poking out. I'm not 100% sure if that's how it should be but that's how the Thai man did it. But it's give or take right. It was about 25cm from the edge of the house. The earth wire had been fixed to the house with clip's and looked to my untrained eye Ok. Even the wire's inside had been put in a form of conduit, and by the way that had melted. Quite a nice clean job, unusual for Thai workmen.

As regard to anti surge they are useless unless your main's box is earthed. Well that's what's on the box they come in. So I have not fitted one. There in lie's another problem the only way as I see it is to earth the main's box using those stake's, back to square one.

I phone a friend of mine who's pretty genned up on thing's and he has given me an Email address of one of his chum's who has had an all singing all dancing set up installed in his Thai house, that does not use a stake. I have sent him an Email but as he only look's at his comp: once every two week's or so I am not expecting a reply that soon. Can't contact him direct as he at the moment in the Mid: east, doing power work on the oil rig's. If and when I do get a reply will give an update. But I do believe it's quite complicated and pricey. But if it can save a life who care's. Thank's for all the info.

Edited September 9, 2011 by fredob43

[Kwasaki]

brissance

Sorry to but in.

Glad you did too, it is sad to see people messing with electrics, especially when they can do more harm than good.

As I have I said before I would have liked to have inspected the damage of the scene.

More information has come out now e.g. 1.5 metre rod is too short.

Further evidence is maybe the wiring from the earth rod was not wired to the earth bar in the shower unit.

It will be interesting to hear what the all singing all dancing set up installed in his Thai house guy has to say.

[fredob43]

brissance

Sorry to but in.

Glad you did too, it is sad to see people messing with electrics, especially when they can do more harm than good.

As I have I said before I would have liked to have inspected the damage of the scene.

More information has come out now e.g. 1.5 metre rod is too short.

Further evidence is maybe the wiring from the earth rod was not wired to the earth bar in the shower unit.

It will be interesting to hear what the all singing all dancing set up installed in his Thai house guy has to say.

Re inspect you'll have to take my word for it and that all was wired as it should have been. EG earth to the earth nut using washer's, live to live ect you could still see them all even though the lot had fussed together, and was all be it a trite buggered. I even went as far as to check that the live coming to the 32 amp cut out switch was the right way round even though the power was turned off at the time, gray L Black N and they were. Most of the bit's I've looked at say that 1.5 to 2mt is the norm. But what ever length it was, it was long enough to bugger the lot.

Yes sorry to be a bit late on some of the info but was not 100% sure myself had to contact my friend to check.

Right re the All singing. I have seen his place it's more like a hotel than a house sit's on over 5 rai "guess" Has a water tower well over 100 feet 30+mt high, look's more like a block of flat's/condo's than a W/T even has room's inside it with windows. I wont go into what the house is like except to say that all the wiring, electric's, water pipe's hot water system, "not Thai plastic" ect where imported from the EU, if he's gone to all that trouble it won't rely on a stake in the ground for an earth. As said up date as and when. I'm out of Thailand at the end of the month for four week's, and wont be near my comp: so I hope it's before then.

Edited September 10, 2011 by fredob43

[Kwasaki]

Re inspect you'll have to take my word for it and that all was wired as it should have been.

Most of the bit's I've looked at say that 1.5 to 2mt is the norm. But what ever length it was, it was long enough to bugger the lot.

Yes sorry to be a bit late on some of the info but was not 100% sure myself had to contact my friend to check.

I wont go into what the house is like except to say that all the wiring, electric's, water pipe's hot water system, "not Thai plastic" ect where imported from the EU, if he's gone to all that trouble it won't rely on a stake in the ground for an earth.

I don't disbelieve you, what I was saying is I would have found it very interesting and would of liked to inspect the scenario myself, whatever your fears it is a rare thing to have happen.

I would think it's best not take showers when a Lightning storm is near.

You are correct that Thai copper grounding rods stocked are usually 1.5m & 2.0m, sufficient for earthing in some cases but the longer the better.

As mentioned before a foundation with earthing additives is the far better way to go along with 3m or even 10m grounding rods.

As for lightning concerns, a simple rod system will usually suffice, along with surge protectors.

Here another good read for those interested :- http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm.html

[fredob43]

Re inspect you'll have to take my word for it and that all was wired as it should have been.

Most of the bit's I've looked at say that 1.5 to 2mt is the norm. But what ever length it was, it was long enough to bugger the lot.

Yes sorry to be a bit late on some of the info but was not 100% sure myself had to contact my friend to check.

I wont go into what the house is like except to say that all the wiring, electric's, water pipe's hot water system, "not Thai plastic" ect where imported from the EU, if he's gone to all that trouble it won't rely on a stake in the ground for an earth.

I don't disbelieve you, what I was saying is I would have found it very interesting and would of liked to inspect the scenario myself, whatever your fears it is a rare thing to have happen.

I would think it's best not take showers when a Lightning storm is near.

You are correct that Thai copper grounding rods stocked are usually 1.5m & 2.0m, sufficient for earthing in some cases but the longer the better.

As mentioned before a foundation with earthing additives is the far better way to go along with 3m or even 10m grounding rods.

As for lightning concerns, a simple rod system will usually suffice, along with surge protectors.

Here another good read for those interested :- http://www.lightning...m/nlsi_lhm.html

Thank's for that. But it will take quite a lot of reading. Question What, ware, can we get surge protector's, I asked about same in my local shop and all be it the top man was not there but they just looked at me as if I was from another planet. That's why I ended up doing what I did " that I know is not right" but I will go back when he's there.

Did see one thing after a quick scan through one of the bit's in the above email address you kindly posted and it said. Because the initial lightning impulse is so strong, equipment connected to cable's a mile or 1.6km or even more from the site of a strike can be damaged. Another bit said that even a minor strike can produce 10,000 Volt's enough to bugger most if not all of the thing's in the house. Interesting A.

[Brissance]

brissance

Sorry to but in.

Glad you did too, it is sad to see people messing with electrics, especially when they can do more harm than good.

As I have I said before I would have liked to have inspected the damage of the scene.

More information has come out now e.g. 1.5 metre rod is too short.

Further evidence is maybe the wiring from the earth rod was not wired to the earth bar in the shower unit.

It will be interesting to hear what the all singing all dancing set up installed in his Thai house guy has to say.

Thanks, hopefully some things said will be taken on board and make the guy think a little about what he's done/going to do. Reading his posts I'm not sure if he's put links or breakers/fusible links in his ground wire or not, as he makes references to not wanting or having an earth connection in some posts.

He may be interested to know that his mains supply neutral is grounded at the nearest sub-station or transformer. If his house is a standard concrete pillar and beam construction then it's grounded through the steel reinforcement in the pillars and the steel roof trusses make excellent conductors. So he has an earth connection.

Who knows (or will ever really know) what condition the installation was in prior to the event. The earth rod was so close to the house that a bolt of lightning would hit the building before the rod so failing that it was most likely caused by a poor installation causing a differential potential from a strike farther away . This may have been excacerbated by an accumulation of water in the area of the earth rod and you're right the earth rod wasn't up to the job and was most likely in the wrong place. Being so close to the bulding it was probably mostly buried in sand. Even an SPD may not have protected anything in this instance as they are usually fitted to the incoming mains and the breakers to the showers were open in addition to the poor ground connection.

I too would like to know what the guy with a bit of land has to say. Except for exotic installations (usually for scientific purposes) earthing/grounding is the norm.

[Brissance]

Re inspect you'll have to take my word for it and that all was wired as it should have been.

Most of the bit's I've looked at say that 1.5 to 2mt is the norm. But what ever length it was, it was long enough to bugger the lot.

Yes sorry to be a bit late on some of the info but was not 100% sure myself had to contact my friend to check.

I wont go into what the house is like except to say that all the wiring, electric's, water pipe's hot water system, "not Thai plastic" ect where imported from the EU, if he's gone to all that trouble it won't rely on a stake in the ground for an earth.

I don't disbelieve you, what I was saying is I would have found it very interesting and would of liked to inspect the scenario myself, whatever your fears it is a rare thing to have happen.

I would think it's best not take showers when a Lightning storm is near.

You are correct that Thai copper grounding rods stocked are usually 1.5m & 2.0m, sufficient for earthing in some cases but the longer the better.

As mentioned before a foundation with earthing additives is the far better way to go along with 3m or even 10m grounding rods.

As for lightning concerns, a simple rod system will usually suffice, along with surge protectors.

Here another good read for those interested :- http://www.lightning...m/nlsi_lhm.html

Thank's for that. But it will take quite a lot of reading. Question What, ware, can we get surge protector's, I asked about same in my local shop and all be it the top man was not there but they just looked at me as if I was from another planet. That's why I ended up doing what I did " that I know is not right" but I will go back when he's there.

Did see one thing after a quick scan through one of the bit's in the above email address you kindly posted and it said. Because the initial lightning impulse is so strong, equipment connected to cable's a mile or 1.6km or even more from the site of a strike can be damaged. Another bit said that even a minor strike can produce 10,000 Volt's enough to bugger most if not all of the thing's in the house. Interesting A.

Take a look at the link. They have both BT CIno and Square D components. www.seven-a.com Checked my BT Cino distribution boxes in the main house today and I have SPD's already fitted and connected to the ground bus which goes out to my grounding rods. These are steel rods and are 9' by 1" dia. There's four rods in total and they're linked together. My latest project will be very similar.

The main house is fitted with lighning rods also and have a different configuration to the supply ground. Everything was installed at the time of build as it's at an altitude of 600m surrounded by hills.Somedays we're looking down at the clouds. The whole earthing system was also tested.

[Kwasaki]

Take a look at the link. They have both BT CIno and Square D components. www.seven-a.com Checked my BT Cino distribution boxes in the main house today and I have SPD's already fitted and connected to the ground bus which goes out to my grounding rods. These are steel rods and are 9' by 1" dia. There's four rods in total and they're linked together. My latest project will be very similar.

The main house is fitted with lighning rods also and have a different configuration to the supply ground. Everything was installed at the time of build as it's at an altitude of 600m surrounded by hills.Somedays we're looking down at the clouds. The whole earthing system was also tested.

Thanks for the link, I have kept that as well for reference.

It sounds like you have a good advanced build, thats what I would call it in Thailand.

Although the builder understood the drawings and started carrying out the ground works correctly I could not be here all the time when my Thai house of 11 years ago was being built or when electrical installations were being installed.

Considering that though, in my view they have done a fairly good job but it still gave me plenty of things to do when I came to live here.

I was lucky in as much to purchase the electrical equipment that wouldn't of been installed if I had not done so, which may have caused problems.

With my western head on at the time, I did not know or give it any thought the power coming into the house was only two pole and 15amp.

In the usual leave it to them Thai way the two pole supply are connected to a Knife isolator switch but my additions were then installed, RCB (GFCI) and Distribution box with MCB's, after that safety breaker switches for showers.

If I had realized what would be happening I would have bought three core cable, three pins sockets and a grounding rod.

So ( 1 ) the two core cables they had installed were over the top but OK in the spur system.

( gives good connection readings though and should be OK ).

So ( 2 ) no earth connections into dist box and no grounding rod installed.

So ( 3 ) cables were run through ceilings but then, all be it neatly, installed down the surface of the internal walls.

( I didn't mind because it gives easy access to cables I want to change also I will boxed them in timber and put dummy ones in the corner of the rooms and spaced around the walls as a timber wall room feature ).

So ( 4 ) the two electrical showers were not earthed.

( connected to 3m grounding rod with 10mm2 cable ).

So ( 5 ) two pin power points throughout the house.

( PC power socket changed to 3 pin switch socket, earthed and three pin multi socket adaptor with surge protector used ).

So ( 6 ) for TV etc ditto.

So ( 7 ) for washing machine earthed to rod.

There is more I could do I guess on the electrical side but I 'll leave that to my son who is an electrician and when he comes on a long vacation, we can spend a few days on more improvements.

Common things I find :-

Surge devices not wired correctly.

Appliances with three core cables have three pin type plugs but no earth connection pin.

Appliances with two pin plugs that should be earthed.