Germans Decline Comment On Thaksin Visit Claim

[AleG]

As far as I know the recognised facts are that Taksin's party won 460 seats in the 2006 election, up from 375 in the 2005 election. The 2006 election was nullified because the opposition boycotted it. I'm not personally aligned one way or the other in Thai politics, but I am genuinely astonished at the number of farangs on LV who (seem to) align themselves with military interventions rather than the repeated and overwhelming democratic decisions of the Thai people.

I think by far the problem is not the democratic rights of the people and their exercise, the problem is having a criminal at the helm of a country.

Well at least you're honest in your lack of respect for democracy.

And exactly where did I say that I have a lack of respect for democracy?

[JurgenG]

^^ You don't like my facts and my question embarass you. It was expected .

But I'm a bit disappointed by your answer. You take the easy way out. I find it a bit coward, puerile to use your own expression.

Based on your posting history, I was expecting better from you

[rixalex]

As far as I know the recognised facts are that Taksin's party won 460 seats in the 2006 election, up from 375 in the 2005 election. The 2006 election was nullified because the opposition boycotted it.

Nope. The 2006 election was nullified because the EC screwed up in failing to ensure privacy for voters at the booths.

I'm not personally aligned one way or the other in Thai politics, but I am genuinely astonished at the number of farangs on LV who (seem to) align themselves with military interventions rather than the repeated and overwhelming democratic decisions of the Thai people.

I am equally astonished at the number of farangs who seem to think that democracy begins and ends with the election, and that if a party wins and is popular, that basically means that whatever actions that party takes, be they legal or be they illegal, be they in line with democratic values or be they totally against, that's ok and we must simply accept it because that party has won the numbers game and that is all that matters. It is not.

In properly developed democracies, if a person is elected and then commits a criminal act, it doesn't matter how many people voted for them, or how many people would vote for them again, it matters that they have broken the law. They are not above it and their popularity has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are innocent or guilty.

Thaksin came to office, he broke the law, he was kicked out. The exact same thing would have happened were he leading a Western democratic nation, except that in a Western democratic nation, it wouldn't have needed a coup because checks and balances are stronger and you can't simply put all your relatives into head positions of those bodies.

Perhaps one day Thailand will have a democracy strong enough to deal with corrupt leaders within the system itself, but until that day, sadly it falls on the military to deal with this vermin.

[whybother]

As far as I know the recognised facts are that Taksin's party won 460 seats in the 2006 election, up from 375 in the 2005 election. The 2006 election was nullified because the opposition boycotted it. I'm not personally aligned one way or the other in Thai politics, but I am genuinely astonished at the number of farangs on LV who (seem to) align themselves with military interventions rather than the repeated and overwhelming democratic decisions of the Thai people.

The 2006 election was NOT nullified because the of the Democrat boycott.

Initially, Thaksin couldn't form government because there wasn't a quorum - that is, there wasn't the required number of elected MPs because in some electorates the only MP standing (ie TRT) didn't get the 20% of the vote.

Later the election was nullified because of EC positioned the voting booths which didn't allow voter privacy.

And then the standard "I am not a Thaksin supporter, but ...". Just because posters don't like Thaksin or the red shirts, does not mean that they support military coups.

[billd766]

You both would make more sense if Thaksin were a convicted criminal on the run

But, as far as foreign countries are involved, he is not.

He is a democratically elected PM on exile following a military coup. Until recently he would have been most welcomed anywhere in the world as long as he refrains from political activities. What he refused to do and that was the reason of his troubles.

Now that he is no longer considered an opponent (for obvious reasons) to a friendly foreign government, he is welcome again.

End of the story.

It would be nice and more constructive if you stick with facts instead of building scenarios on imaginary assumptions.

Maybe you also need to stick to facts.

Thaksin was a democratically elected PM that dissolved parliament and called an election which failed to get the constitutionally required number of elected MPs. He was then a care-taker PM that stood down. He then failed to organise an election in the required time frame.

Just because the coup occurred while Thaksin was in the care-taker PM position does not suddenly make him the elected PM at the time of the coup.

As far as I remember Thaksin was the caretaker PM for a while and then went before the King and resigned. Another MP whose name escapes me at the moment took over as caretaker PM for a short while before Thaksin took the post back again.

I Googled and found this link but there are many more around.

If I am correct then to my mind he had no legal power as a PM, caretaker or elected or neither.

Edited July 29, 2011 by billd766

[jayboy]

In properly developed democracies, if a person is elected and then commits a criminal act, it doesn't matter how many people voted for them, or how many people would vote for them again, it matters that they have broken the law. They are not above it and their popularity has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are innocent or guilty.

Quite so , but in "properly developed democracies" the judicial branch is totally independent of the executive and legislative branches.It is not subject to direction for reasons of political expediency by unelected vested interests as a way to thwart and frustrate the popular will as expressed at the ballot box.

[hanuman1]

In properly developed democracies, if a person is elected and then commits a criminal act, it doesn't matter how many people voted for them, or how many people would vote for them again, it matters that they have broken the law. They are not above it and their popularity has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are innocent or guilty.

Quite so , but in "properly developed democracies" the judicial branch is totally independent of the executive and legislative branches.It is not subject to direction for reasons of political expediency by unelected vested interests as a way to thwart and frustrate the popular will as expressed at the ballot box.

Yes, and I don't think that point is lost on the German judiciary.

[rixalex]

In properly developed democracies, if a person is elected and then commits a criminal act, it doesn't matter how many people voted for them, or how many people would vote for them again, it matters that they have broken the law. They are not above it and their popularity has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are innocent or guilty.

Quite so , but in "properly developed democracies" the judicial branch is totally independent of the executive and legislative branches.It is not subject to direction for reasons of political expediency by unelected vested interests as a way to thwart and frustrate the popular will as expressed at the ballot box.

Sadly the judicial branch is indeed subjected to direction from a number of different outside influences, not only those unelected. Look no further than the 2001 assets concealment case for indication of that. Here we had vested interests not thwarting or frustrating the popular will as expressed at the ballot box, but rather pandering and kissing up to it. And i have little doubt that the coming years will see more and more cases just like this one.

Which all goes back to what i was saying about the military being forced to play a role in Thai politics; either that or leave the country to wind up completely in the hands of one person or family, a la Cambodia, Philippines etc.

[rixalex]

In properly developed democracies, if a person is elected and then commits a criminal act, it doesn't matter how many people voted for them, or how many people would vote for them again, it matters that they have broken the law. They are not above it and their popularity has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are innocent or guilty.

Quite so , but in "properly developed democracies" the judicial branch is totally independent of the executive and legislative branches.It is not subject to direction for reasons of political expediency by unelected vested interests as a way to thwart and frustrate the popular will as expressed at the ballot box.

Yes, and I don't think that point is lost on the German judiciary.

Well, it seems that the point was lost on them for the last few years. Fortunate timing for them to come their senses indeed.

[hanuman1]

In properly developed democracies, if a person is elected and then commits a criminal act, it doesn't matter how many people voted for them, or how many people would vote for them again, it matters that they have broken the law. They are not above it and their popularity has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are innocent or guilty.

Quite so , but in "properly developed democracies" the judicial branch is totally independent of the executive and legislative branches.It is not subject to direction for reasons of political expediency by unelected vested interests as a way to thwart and frustrate the popular will as expressed at the ballot box.

Yes, and I don't think that point is lost on the German judiciary.

Well, it seems that the point was lost on them for the last few years. Fortunate timing for them to come their senses indeed.

I believe Thaksin was banned from entering Germany not because of his conviction by a Thai court, but because he was conducting - or meddling in, if you prefer - Thai affairs from there. This has been alluded to elsewhere in this forum.

[Thai at Heart]

Will be interesting to see if the Brits follow suit. God knows how many people there are in London because they claim they can't get a fair trial back home, and yet for some reason, Thaksin got booted.

Of course, it might not have been because Sir Terry Leahy had a rather frantic phone call to Milliband explaining Tesco Thailands rather tenuous share structure to him, and that it may be helpful to move Thaksin as far away from the UK as possible.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article1289764.ece

Tesco faces Thailand crackdown

Bill Condie in Bangkok

The new government appointed by the military junta after the ousting of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra in a bloodless coup in September has added impetus to the drive to crack down on foreign firms, with Tesco one of the highest profile targets.

I can imagine a little payback if and when Thaksin gets back, and isn't it funny after so much fanfare how this story seems to have evaporated into thin air since.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[rixalex]

I believe Thaksin was banned from entering Germany not because of his conviction by a Thai court, but because he was conducting - or meddling in, if you prefer - Thai affairs from there. This has been alluded to elsewhere in this forum.

Perhaps so, but my feeling is that his criminal conviction, on top of the meddling, made the situation all the more uncomfortable for the Germans and helped them arrive at the decision that they did. After all, i don't think they are in the habit of issuing visas to convicted criminals on the run, even those who protest their innocence.

[pastitche]

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<BR>The incompetance of the soon to be gone and not missed government is utterly staggering. When the Dems have their little soiree to select new leaders and executives they would well advised to ditch anyone in or associated with formation of this government (with a possible exception for Korn). Even their utterly incompetent election campaign pales compared to their total inability at governance with foreign policy deserving a special award for incompetence. My god what next reselect an unelectable and utterly despised by many leader and chose a secretary-general due up in court on corruption charges?<BR>

<BR>For me, it is all relative. Was this government incompetent? Yes. Was it more incompetent than all those that have come before it in recent history? Absolutely "no". Did it face unique and highly tricky challenges that would have brought prior governments to an early end? Yes. Let's not forget the number of people who were predicting the downfall of the Democrat coalition days after it was formed. It didn't collapse. It stayed reasonably strong under immense strain. Something i think to be said for that. <BR><BR>And as for Abhisit being "utterly despised by many", if that is indeed who you were referring, i personally think that it is mostly just hard-core red shirts that would harbour feelings as strong as that against him. The more common prevailing negative view i hear voiced against him would be more along the lines of him being a gentleman but a gentleman who was unable to get things done and who was under the control of others.<BR>

<BR><BR>The common one I have heard around upcountry folk when someone says they dont support Thaksin or criticise him is "who do you support then? Abhisit?" with the "Abhisit" stressed in a very negative manner. Im not reffering to openly red shirted people here but just those who vote for any party Thaksin is linked to. I'm not even sure it is the red shirt villification of Abhisit for the deaths that is the major reason for the way he is despised as much as that he is seen as being a representative of the establishment who only does things at their behest. Im not even sure people up there felt that way when he came to power (its hard to remember), but he is just very damaged goods with them now. <BR><BR>Sure the Dem government survived. It also managed to give away probably more than Thaksin ever managed, but it never ever managed to win over the people. And apart from some foreign policy nightmares, the April-May stuff, the 3G nightmare, populist policies that looked embarrasingly like just giving cash to people and which massively increased national debt, what can be rememebered about this government? <BR><BR>There is also just so much political awareness and talk about politics in Thailand now and the Democrats are just as a party not suited to this. They rely a lot more on "trust us", "clean leader even if flawed party", "not as dirty as the others", "natural party of government". They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas. There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about. The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more demcoratic in terms of people realising their power, and they are struggling to catch up, or as we may see on August 6 if they select the same old faces under BKK and South faction dominance in total denial<BR>

<BR><BR>More democratic? It's Mr. T's sister. This is the banana republic style of government. It's like Fidel's brother taking over in Cuba.<BR>

<BR><BR>Yes it is Thaksin's sister and probably there will be an attempt to return him to Thailand unpunished; but you should perhaps look more closely at the points made in the post about the Democrats and respond to them. The situation in Thailand is different now and they must look at why they are not accepted by a majority of the Thai people. How was Fidel's successor appointed? <BR><BR>

[davidkia]

Rather than concentrating on all the evil countries that let him into the country, why not just lodge extradition cases? That is normal protocol. And if unwilling to lodge these cases stop obsessing about what countries allow him in.

yes times have changed so lets move on , we all know the charges brought against him was made up for a government that was put there by the Army !

[whybother]

Rather than concentrating on all the evil countries that let him into the country, why not just lodge extradition cases? That is normal protocol. And if unwilling to lodge these cases stop obsessing about what countries allow him in.

yes times have changed so lets move on , we all know the charges brought against him was made up for a government that was put there by the Army !

Do you mean Thaksin didn't sign off on a government land sale to his wife?

[chaoyang]

Funny old business. Either Thaksin is an on the run convicted criminal or his isn't. Presumably Germany recognised that he was when they banned him. Now because there has been a change in the political situation in Thailand, he isn't?

Guilt or innocence determined by the ballot box. Let's do away with the judiciary and be done with it.

In Thailand guilty is determined by who's in power. The judiciary has never been unbiased and cannot be if the judges value their careers and quite possibly their lives.

[rixalex]

Funny old business. Either Thaksin is an on the run convicted criminal or his isn't. Presumably Germany recognised that he was when they banned him. Now because there has been a change in the political situation in Thailand, he isn't?

Guilt or innocence determined by the ballot box. Let's do away with the judiciary and be done with it.

In Thailand guilty is determined by who's in power. The judiciary has never been unbiased and cannot be if the judges value their careers and quite possibly their lives.

As such, we must either accept all of their decisions as being of equal validity, or dismiss each and every one - and we can't very well do that or we would have no judiciary whatsoever.

Thaksin (and his followers) is happy to accept court verdicts when they have been steered to an outcome that suits him, such as in 2001, but then, when he is unable, despite an attempted bribe, to get it swinging in his direction at a later time, suddenly they are declared as unfair and politically motivated. How nice to be able to cherry pick the court verdicts one adheres to and respects, and how coincidental that all those that he does are the ones that find in his favour.

Who actually disputes that Thaksin did sign off on that land agreement for his wife and that was against the law? I don't think even Thaksin or his lawyers do. The argument seems rather to be that men of his standing usually manage to dodge round such trivial law breaking matters - and i'm sure had he remained in power he would have - but who, besides red shirts, cares when for once a corrupt politician is made to follow the line of the law?

Edited July 30, 2011 by rixalex

[gregb]

Funny old business. Either Thaksin is an on the run convicted criminal or his isn't. Presumably Germany recognised that he was when they banned him. Now because there has been a change in the political situation in Thailand, he isn't?

Guilt or innocence determined by the ballot box. Let's do away with the judiciary and be done with it.

In Thailand guilty is determined by who's in power. The judiciary has never been unbiased and cannot be if the judges value their careers and quite possibly their lives.

Sadly this is true. Which is why Thaksin was not convicted in 2001 when he was clearly guilty, and why it was necessary for a coup to throw him out in order to try him for his crimes.

I wish for once those who ramble on about coup this and army that, would admit that the lack of an independent judiciary is what makes democracy impossible and military coups inevitable in Thailand. The military is the only arm of government in Thailand that has a possibility of standing in opposition to whatever occupying power wins an election.

I would love to have an independent judiciary in Thailand and not have to rely on the military to enforce justice, but I don't believe that is possible. The Thai people have spoken quite clearly that they don't want it. The military will likely continue to be the only reliable check and balance on government tyranny.

Whether or not Thaksin is ever convicted of all the things he is guilty of and forced to serve his prison sentence, it is completely disingenuous to try and claim he is innocent, and Germany allowing him to enter the country is in extremely poor taste. My opinion of Germany has dropped considerably after this. They appear to be even more corrupt and uninterested in justice than the United States, and I didn't think that was possible in a Western nation.

[gregb]

One question for all the Germans on this forum,

According to the Thai English language newspaper we can not quote, Kasit has said that "The German government was pressured by one of its coalition parties from the southern part of [Germany]" to allow Thaksin to enter the country.

Anybody know which coalition party they are referring to?

[TomnearCentral]

One question for all the Germans on this forum,

According to the Thai English language newspaper we can not quote, Kasit has said that "The German government was pressured by one of its coalition parties from the southern part of [Germany]" to allow Thaksin to enter the country.

Anybody know which coalition party they are referring to?

I do not know if it is true what Kasit is saying, but the only southern coalition partner is the CSU (Christlich Soziale Union) from Bavaria.

[CNF55]

One question for all the Germans on this forum,

According to the Thai English language newspaper we can not quote, Kasit has said that "The German government was pressured by one of its coalition parties from the southern part of [Germany]" to allow Thaksin to enter the country.

Anybody know which coalition party they are referring to?

I do not know if it is true what Kasit is saying, but the only southern coalition partner is the CSU (Christlich Soziale Union) from Bavaria.

Which is also the home of the BND (secret service)......

[hammered]

Kasit seems to be going into meltdown mode in his final hours as supreme representative of Thai governance abroad. Even Abhisit is now making non-commital and low key responses as did the actual attorney general about the right of Germany to decide on Thaksins's entry.

[gregb]

One question for all the Germans on this forum,

According to the Thai English language newspaper we can not quote, Kasit has said that "The German government was pressured by one of its coalition parties from the southern part of [Germany]" to allow Thaksin to enter the country.

Anybody know which coalition party they are referring to?

I do not know if it is true what Kasit is saying, but the only southern coalition partner is the CSU (Christlich Soziale Union) from Bavaria.

You appear to be correct.

According to Voice News, the story comes from the "Frankfurter Allgemeiner Zeitung newspaper" and specifically names the MPs from the CSU as pressing Westerwelle to allow Thaksin entry into the country.

So does anyone know why the CSU adores the Thai demagogue so much? What is the connection there?

[JurgenG]

I wish for once those who ramble on about coup this and army that, would admit that the lack of an independent judiciary is what makes democracy impossible and military coups inevitable in Thailand. The military is the only arm of government in Thailand that has a possibility of standing in opposition to whatever occupying power wins an election.

I would love to have an independent judiciary in Thailand and not have to rely on the military to enforce justice, but I don't believe that is possible. The Thai people have spoken quite clearly that they don't want it. The military will likely continue to be the only reliable check and balance on government tyranny.

Whether or not Thaksin is ever convicted of all the things he is guilty of and forced to serve his prison sentence, it is completely disingenuous to try and claim he is innocent, and Germany allowing him to enter the country is in extremely poor taste. My opinion of Germany has dropped considerably after this. They appear to be even more corrupt and uninterested in justice than the United States, and I didn't think that was possible in a Western nation.

Germany, the United States are the evil empire. The army is the only force that can save the nation from itself ...

What is your model country ? North Korea ?

Edited July 30, 2011 by JurgenG

[Thaddeus]

So does anyone know why the CSU adores the Thai demagogue so much? What is the connection there?

Funding?

[gregb]

What is your model country ? North Korea ?

My model country is the vision of what Thailand could have been before Thaksin began sabotaging the path it was on for his own personal gain.

[gregb]

So does anyone know why the CSU adores the Thai demagogue so much? What is the connection there?

Funding?

I don't know if this is it. Not by itself anyway. One of the founding members of the TRT essentially grew up in Germany, and his father was the Ambassador there for many years. That suggests to me that these relationships run deeper than just money. Both Thaksin's Foreign Minister and Interior Minister fled to Germany directly after the coup for a meeting with someone. So whatever is going on in Germany today obviously existed before the military ousted the Thaksin regime.

I never believe the surface stories in Thai politics. This is a serious game being played for control of Thailand in the future, and Germany has taken a very public position on who they support in recent days. I think it would be wise to understand what is behind this development.

[sirchai]

Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's entry into Germany on July 15, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reported. /via@ThanongK

And this guy is considerd the most incompetent foreign minister the federal republic of germany ever produced!

However, very interesting how the fugitive get's into this picture, is he the "foreign ambassador" in exile, or the "economic advisor" of Thailand?

Very intersting constellation - CP - his 737 impounded - Don Muang Tollway project - a german building company broke - and now Mr.thaksin is reportedly in germany..... well, well, well...apparently one day he said:... ah' well... those who know, know, those who don't, don't!

The political novice is set to take office as prime minister in early August. Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's entry into Germany on July 15, the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reported.

This gay Westerwelle is indeed Germanys worst minister they ecer had. Having a meeting with International guests, he decided that all of them had to speak in German, because the meeting had been in Germany.

Westerwelle and Merkel, the German chancellor cant speak English. I guess its much better so that others do not understand what theyre saying.

I need to go and merkel my wife now…………………..:jap:

Edited July 30, 2011 by metisdead
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[sirchai]

One question for all the Germans on this forum,

According to the Thai English language newspaper we can not quote, Kasit has said that "The German government was pressured by one of its coalition parties from the southern part of [Germany]" to allow Thaksin to enter the country.

Anybody know which coalition party they are referring to?

I do not know if it is true what Kasit is saying, but the only southern coalition partner is the CSU (Christlich Soziale Union) from Bavaria.

You appear to be correct.

According to Voice News, the story comes from the "Frankfurter Allgemeiner Zeitung newspaper" and specifically names the MPs from the CSU as pressing Westerwelle to allow Thaksin entry into the country.

So does anyone know why the CSU adores the Thai demagogue so much? What is the connection there?

I guess it could have been the CDU (Chrislich Demokratische Union). Bavaria was always special and having the most money in Germany, because of companies like Audi, Volkswagen and BMW.

But does it really matter who helped? My point being is something else must have happened before that the weird Thaksin is suddenly welcome. Shame on them, the whole German government, Thaksin still is a convicted criminal…………………….:jap:

Here's a photo of Mr. Westerwelle with his friend. The biggest joke since Arnold Schwarzenegger...............

Edited July 30, 2011 by metisdead
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[Cnxforever]

What is your model country ? North Korea ?

My model country is the vision of what Thailand could have been before Thaksin began sabotaging the path it was on for his own personal gain.

maybe you should read up on your facts!

Who was it who "turned" the judges in favour of Thaksin when he placed "accidentally" billions of baht into his drivers and maids bank accounts?

Who told the judges that "the country needs him now" just because Thaksin was instrumental to them?

It's all out there - even a quote from one of the judges from the administrative court who said he "had to swallow his blood" to aquite him - because he was told to do so by very powerfull people........ they only had one problem he became too powerfull himself a few years later - and he was the first PM elected in a landslide absolute majority.

He did not need the "phu yais" anymore who have never done anything for this country anyway - he showed them that they are nothing but greedy, powerhungry, useless old men - of course they needed to get rid of him. They saw their elitist lifestyle and powerbase eroding - there was no other reason for the coup in 2006.

Thai people like him because he gets things done - everybody in a position in power in this country is corrupt in one way or the other - Thaksin was just one of many corrupt Thai politicians - but he was clever enough to hand some of the cake out to the people.

Now the only choice Thai people ever have is

- corrupt leaders who eat all the cake

- or corrupt leaders who throw them at least a few crumbs.

corruption has gotten worse under the last government - what many of you here do not understand is there is no western "moral" thinking here - in this country you are lucky if you get into a position where you have access to the cookie jar - and you go in with both hands if you have the chance - Thais see nothing wrong with this - they see it almost as their "right" to help themselves if given a chance.

There is nobody who was involved in the last coup who did not pretend they "did it for the country" what a joke - they did it to keep the status quo - greed and power where the reasons - and nothing else.

Then they where counting on the Thai peoples short memory - they thought Thaksin - with the help of a controlled press - would be forgotten very soon - well they got it all wrong again - and we will all witness how the drama plays out - on thing is for sure.......the Thai people want change...all it takes is time.