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Germans Decline Comment On Thaksin Visit Claim


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Germans decline comment on Thaksin visit claim

By Kornchanok Raksaseri,

Jeerapong Prasertpolkrung

The Nation

Stefan Duppel, charge d'affaires at the German Embassy, yesterday declined to confirm a report on Thaksin Shinawatra, saying he would have to contact Berlin about claims the ex-PM had visited the country despite being on a German exemption list.

The charge d'affaires is now acting head of the German mission in the absence of the ambassador, who is abroad.

Duppel said he did not remember whether Germany's decision to put Thaksin on a national exemption list was related to the Thai Supreme Court's ruling against Thaksin in 2008. The envoy said he was not allowed to speak on individual cases.

The Supreme Court convicted Thaksin of corruption over his wife's purchase of land in the Ratchadaphisek area and sentenced him to serve two years in prison.

The German government declared Thaksin persona non grata, banning him from entering the country, after his repeated phone-in addresses to anti-government rallies in Thailand.

A Thai website quoted a German newspaper as reporting Germany had allowed Thaksin, who holds a Montenegrin passport, to visit the country on July 15.

Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, secretary to the foreign minister, said the Foreign Ministry was verifying the claim.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said he would not acknowledge the deletion of Thaksin's name from the blacklist.

He was against trying to connect that decision with the case of a German company demanding compensation from the Thai government, which has strained bilateral relations.

"Don't assume anything by yourself. We can say that only if there's concrete evidence," he said.

It was up to the new government led by Thaksin's younger sister Yingluck to allow the former premier to travel to countries more easily, he said, adding that the new government was expected to treat Thaksin as any other fugitive.

Her relationship with Thaksin would be a test for whether PM-in-waiting Yingluck prioritised national interests ahead of personal interests, he added.

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-- The Nation 2011-07-28

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Rather than concentrating on all the evil countries that let him into the country, why not just lodge extradition cases? That is normal protocol. And if unwilling to lodge these cases stop obsessing about what countries allow him in.

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Rather than concentrating on all the evil countries that let him into the country, why not just lodge extradition cases? That is normal protocol. And if unwilling to lodge these cases stop obsessing about what countries allow him in.

Interesting and typical is the tendency of the Thais to criticise the German government and its Embassy for speaking out on legal matters yet feel free themselves to speak out - always impetuously and often inaccurately.

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Rather than concentrating on all the evil countries that let him into the country, why not just lodge extradition cases? That is normal protocol. And if unwilling to lodge these cases stop obsessing about what countries allow him in.

Interesting and typical is the tendency of the Thais to criticize the German government and its Embassy for speaking out on legal matters yet feel free themselves to speak out - always impetuously and often inaccurately.

The incompetence of the soon to be gone and not missed government is utterly staggering. When the Dems have their little soiree to select new leaders and executives they would well advised to ditch anyone in or associated with formation of this government (with a possible exception for Korn). Even their utterly incompetent election campaign pales compared to their total inability at governance with foreign policy deserving a special award for incompetence. My god what next reselect an unelectable and utterly despised by many leader and chose a secretary-general due up in court on corruption charges?

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The incompetance of the soon to be gone and not missed government is utterly staggering. When the Dems have their little soiree to select new leaders and executives they would well advised to ditch anyone in or associated with formation of this government (with a possible exception for Korn). Even their utterly incompetent election campaign pales compared to their total inability at governance with foreign policy deserving a special award for incompetence. My god what next reselect an unelectable and utterly despised by many leader and chose a secretary-general due up in court on corruption charges?

For me, it is all relative. Was this government incompetent? Yes. Was it more incompetent than all those that have come before it in recent history? Absolutely "no". Did it face unique and highly tricky challenges that would have brought prior governments to an early end? Yes. Let's not forget the number of people who were predicting the downfall of the Democrat coalition days after it was formed. It didn't collapse. It stayed reasonably strong under immense strain. Something i think to be said for that.

And as for Abhisit being "utterly despised by many", if that is indeed who you were referring, i personally think that it is mostly just hard-core red shirts that would harbour feelings as strong as that against him. The more common prevailing negative view i hear voiced against him would be more along the lines of him being a gentleman but a gentleman who was unable to get things done and who was under the control of others.

Edited by rixalex
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The incompetance of the soon to be gone and not missed government is utterly staggering. When the Dems have their little soiree to select new leaders and executives they would well advised to ditch anyone in or associated with formation of this government (with a possible exception for Korn). Even their utterly incompetent election campaign pales compared to their total inability at governance with foreign policy deserving a special award for incompetence. My god what next reselect an unelectable and utterly despised by many leader and chose a secretary-general due up in court on corruption charges?

For me, it is all relative. Was this government incompetent? Yes. Was it more incompetent than all those that have come before it in recent history? Absolutely "no". Did it face unique and highly tricky challenges that would have brought prior governments to an early end? Yes. Let's not forget the number of people who were predicting the downfall of the Democrat coalition days after it was formed. It didn't collapse. It stayed reasonably strong under immense strain. Something i think to be said for that.

And as for Abhisit being "utterly despised by many", if that is indeed who you were referring, i personally think that it is mostly just hard-core red shirts that would harbour feelings as strong as that against him. The more common prevailing negative view i hear voiced against him would be more along the lines of him being a gentleman but a gentleman who was unable to get things done and who was under the control of others.

The common one I have heard around upcountry folk when someone says they dont support Thaksin or criticise him is "who do you support then? Abhisit?" with the "Abhisit" stressed in a very negative manner. Im not reffering to openly red shirted people here but just those who vote for any party Thaksin is linked to. I'm not even sure it is the red shirt villification of Abhisit for the deaths that is the major reason for the way he is despised as much as that he is seen as being a representative of the establishment who only does things at their behest. Im not even sure people up there felt that way when he came to power (its hard to remember), but he is just very damaged goods with them now.

Sure the Dem government survived. It also managed to give away probably more than Thaksin ever managed, but it never ever managed to win over the people. And apart from some foreign policy nightmares, the April-May stuff, the 3G nightmare, populist policies that looked embarrasingly like just giving cash to people and which massively increased national debt, what can be rememebered about this government?

There is also just so much political awareness and talk about politics in Thailand now and the Democrats are just as a party not suited to this. They rely a lot more on "trust us", "clean leader even if flawed party", "not as dirty as the others", "natural party of government". They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas. There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about. The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more demcoratic in terms of people realising their power, and they are struggling to catch up, or as we may see on August 6 if they select the same old faces under BKK and South faction dominance in total denial

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The incompetance of the soon to be gone and not missed government is utterly staggering. When the Dems have their little soiree to select new leaders and executives they would well advised to ditch anyone in or associated with formation of this government (with a possible exception for Korn). Even their utterly incompetent election campaign pales compared to their total inability at governance with foreign policy deserving a special award for incompetence. My god what next reselect an unelectable and utterly despised by many leader and chose a secretary-general due up in court on corruption charges?

For me, it is all relative. Was this government incompetent? Yes. Was it more incompetent than all those that have come before it in recent history? Absolutely "no". Did it face unique and highly tricky challenges that would have brought prior governments to an early end? Yes. Let's not forget the number of people who were predicting the downfall of the Democrat coalition days after it was formed. It didn't collapse. It stayed reasonably strong under immense strain. Something i think to be said for that.

And as for Abhisit being "utterly despised by many", if that is indeed who you were referring, i personally think that it is mostly just hard-core red shirts that would harbour feelings as strong as that against him. The more common prevailing negative view i hear voiced against him would be more along the lines of him being a gentleman but a gentleman who was unable to get things done and who was under the control of others.

The common one I have heard around upcountry folk when someone says they dont support Thaksin or criticise him is "who do you support then? Abhisit?" with the "Abhisit" stressed in a very negative manner. Im not reffering to openly red shirted people here but just those who vote for any party Thaksin is linked to. I'm not even sure it is the red shirt villification of Abhisit for the deaths that is the major reason for the way he is despised as much as that he is seen as being a representative of the establishment who only does things at their behest. Im not even sure people up there felt that way when he came to power (its hard to remember), but he is just very damaged goods with them now.

Sure the Dem government survived. It also managed to give away probably more than Thaksin ever managed, but it never ever managed to win over the people. And apart from some foreign policy nightmares, the April-May stuff, the 3G nightmare, populist policies that looked embarrasingly like just giving cash to people and which massively increased national debt, what can be rememebered about this government?

There is also just so much political awareness and talk about politics in Thailand now and the Democrats are just as a party not suited to this. They rely a lot more on "trust us", "clean leader even if flawed party", "not as dirty as the others", "natural party of government". They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas. There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about. The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more demcoratic in terms of people realising their power, and they are struggling to catch up, or as we may see on August 6 if they select the same old faces under BKK and South faction dominance in total denial

More democratic? It's Mr. T's sister. This is the banana republic style of government. It's like Fidel's brother taking over in Cuba.

Edited by daboyz1
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RUNAWAY PM

Germany lifts travel ban on fugitive Thaksin

Berlin - Germany has lifted the travel restriction banning former Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra from entering the country after the election victory of his proxy party this month.

Government sources said late Wednesday in Berlin that the ban, imposed in 2009, had been revoked. The decision came in the wake of the July 3 parliamentary elections in Thailand, which gave a majority to the Pheu Thai Party, in effect led by Thaksin remotely but whose leader in Thailand is his sister Yingluck Shinawatra.

The political novice is set to take office as prime minister in early August. Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's entry into Germany on July 15, the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reported.

Thaksin was ousted in a 2006 coup, fled the country and was convicted in 2008 of abuse of power in absentia and sentenced to two years in prison. He turned up in Germany in late 2008 and obtained a residency permit, but it was revoked, and he was ordered to leave the country in 2009 and not to return.

The lifting of the ban has caused controversy in Germany with some parliamentarians questioning the possible involvement of their own security, intelligence and diplomatic services in Thaksin's 2008 visit.

News reports have also speculated that Thaksin, who also holds a Montenegran passport and Nicaraguan diplomatic travel documents, was able to visit Germany while the ban was in place.

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-- The Nation 2011-07-28

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The common one I have heard around upcountry folk when someone says they dont support Thaksin or criticise him is "who do you support then? Abhisit?" with the "Abhisit" stressed in a very negative manner. Im not reffering to openly red shirted people here but just those who vote for any party Thaksin is linked to. I'm not even sure it is the red shirt villification of Abhisit for the deaths that is the major reason for the way he is despised as much as that he is seen as being a representative of the establishment who only does things at their behest. Im not even sure people up there felt that way when he came to power (its hard to remember), but he is just very damaged goods with them now.

Sure the Dem government survived. It also managed to give away probably more than Thaksin ever managed, but it never ever managed to win over the people. And apart from some foreign policy nightmares, the April-May stuff, the 3G nightmare, populist policies that looked embarrasingly like just giving cash to people and which massively increased national debt, what can be rememebered about this government?

There is also just so much political awareness and talk about politics in Thailand now and the Democrats are just as a party not suited to this. They rely a lot more on "trust us", "clean leader even if flawed party", "not as dirty as the others", "natural party of government". They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas. There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about. The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more demcoratic in terms of people realising their power, and they are struggling to catch up, or as we may see on August 6 if they select the same old faces under BKK and South faction dominance in total denial

You seem to place a lot of underlying meaning in someone asking, "who do you support then? Abhisit? I don't deny that he has his detractors, how could anyone after the election result?, i just don't think the emotions people have for him are as strong as you imply, and i think there are other characters within Thai politics who are as likely to provoke a stronger reaction.

Democracy is of course all about being elected, but whether a party is or not successful in that aim, does not change the work they have done, be it good or be it bad. Failing to get people to vote for you doesn't necessarily mean you have failed in the work you have done for the country, it means you have failed in getting people to see that. Not the same thing.

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Rather than concentrating on all the evil countries that let him into the country, why not just lodge extradition cases? That is normal protocol. And if unwilling to lodge these cases stop obsessing about what countries allow him in.

-----------------

Why do you think?

These stories have nothing to do with any point of law or any normal protocol.

They are simply written for internal Thai consupmtion, to keep he memory of Thaksin alive and in this case inflame those who dislike him by starting unverifiable reports that he "might" have gone to Germany.

In short it's just more political b------t designed to provoke more than emlighten opinion.

:rolleyes:

Edited by IMA_FARANG
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Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's entry into Germany on July 15, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reported. /via@ThanongK

And this guy is considerd the most incompetent foreign minister the federal republic of germany ever produced! :lol:

However, very interesting how the fugitive get's into this picture, is he the "foreign ambassador" in exile, or the "economic advisor" of Thailand?

Very intersting constellation - CP - his 737 impounded - Don Muang Tollway project - a german building company broke - and now Mr.thaksin is reportedly in germany..... :rolleyes: well, well, well...apparently one day he said:... ah' well... those who know, know, those who don't, don't!

Edited by Samuian
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The incompetance of the soon to be gone and not missed government is utterly staggering. When the Dems have their little soiree to select new leaders and executives they would well advised to ditch anyone in or associated with formation of this government (with a possible exception for Korn). Even their utterly incompetent election campaign pales compared to their total inability at governance with foreign policy deserving a special award for incompetence. My god what next reselect an unelectable and utterly despised by many leader and chose a secretary-general due up in court on corruption charges?

For me, it is all relative. Was this government incompetent? Yes. Was it more incompetent than all those that have come before it in recent history? Absolutely "no". Did it face unique and highly tricky challenges that would have brought prior governments to an early end? Yes. Let's not forget the number of people who were predicting the downfall of the Democrat coalition days after it was formed. It didn't collapse. It stayed reasonably strong under immense strain. Something i think to be said for that.

And as for Abhisit being "utterly despised by many", if that is indeed who you were referring, i personally think that it is mostly just hard-core red shirts that would harbour feelings as strong as that against him. The more common prevailing negative view i hear voiced against him would be more along the lines of him being a gentleman but a gentleman who was unable to get things done and who was under the control of others.

The common one I have heard around upcountry folk when someone says they dont support Thaksin or criticise him is "who do you support then? Abhisit?" with the "Abhisit" stressed in a very negative manner. Im not reffering to openly red shirted people here but just those who vote for any party Thaksin is linked to. I'm not even sure it is the red shirt villification of Abhisit for the deaths that is the major reason for the way he is despised as much as that he is seen as being a representative of the establishment who only does things at their behest. Im not even sure people up there felt that way when he came to power (its hard to remember), but he is just very damaged goods with them now.

Sure the Dem government survived. It also managed to give away probably more than Thaksin ever managed, but it never ever managed to win over the people. And apart from some foreign policy nightmares, the April-May stuff, the 3G nightmare, populist policies that looked embarrasingly like just giving cash to people and which massively increased national debt, what can be rememebered about this government?

There is also just so much political awareness and talk about politics in Thailand now and the Democrats are just as a party not suited to this. They rely a lot more on "trust us", "clean leader even if flawed party", "not as dirty as the others", "natural party of government". They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas. There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about. The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more demcoratic in terms of people realising their power, and they are struggling to catch up, or as we may see on August 6 if they select the same old faces under BKK and South faction dominance in total denial

More democratic? It's Mr. T's sister. This is the banana republic style of government. It's like Fidel's brother taking over in Cuba.

Except that Fidel's brother wasn't elected. Thaksin's sister was, with a nice comfortable majority; more than Abhisit ever achieved. Maybe people were mistaken in voting for Yingluck, but that's what they did. And that's democracy, like it or not.

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http://www.faz.net/artikel/C30189/thaksin-darf-nach-deutschland-30470938.html

This is the official news report from July 22, 2011 - it says, the German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle revoked the ban for Thaksin due to the change of the political situation in Thailand. Since July 15, 2011 Thaksin is allowed to enter Germany. It also says that Germany didn´t contact Thai authorities or officials to share the decision of the German government.

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Except that Fidel's brother wasn't elected. Thaksin's sister was, with a nice comfortable majority; more than Abhisit ever achieved. Maybe people were mistaken in voting for Yingluck, but that's what they did. And that's democracy, like it or not.

53% is a majority alright. Around 60% would have made it nice and comfortable.

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They rely a lot more on "trust us", "clean leader even if flawed party", "not as dirty as the others", "natural party of government". They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas. There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about. The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more demcoratic in terms of people realising their power, and they are struggling to catch up, or as we may see on August 6 if they select the same old faces under BKK and South faction dominance in total denial

The crop subsidy programme introduced by Apisit reached millions more than TRT's mortgage scheme.

Free schooling was extended to 15 years,the removal of 30 baht for hospital care, 500 baht for pensioners per month, transference of loan shark debts to government banks, the setting up of land community rights, all helped people upcountry.

In a blind poll in Issan prior the election where the people don't know which party the policies belong to, the Democrat policies were preferred over Pheua Thai.

Their problems lie in poor marketing and the patronage system, the first they can rectify, the second is much harder to overcome.

Edited by Siripon
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Except that Fidel's brother wasn't elected. Thaksin's sister was, with a nice comfortable majority; more than Abhisit ever achieved. Maybe people were mistaken in voting for Yingluck, but that's what they did. And that's democracy, like it or not.

53% is a majority alright. Around 60% would have made it nice and comfortable.

And I bet has cost him peanuts, compared to what's in all thesebeautiful projects, for which he, errrr' SORRY Yinluck will be praised for generations to come, alas! Bring back the "good guy"!

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http://www.faz.net/a...d-30470938.html

This is the official news report from July 22, 2011 - it says, the German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle revoked the ban for Thaksin due to the change of the political situation in Thailand. Since July 15, 2011 Thaksin is allowed to enter Germany. It also says that Germany didn´t contact Thai authorities or officials to share the decision of the German government.

Funny old business. Either Thaksin is an on the run convicted criminal or his isn't. Presumably Germany recognised that he was when they banned him. Now because there has been a change in the political situation in Thailand, he isn't?

Guilt or innocence determined by the ballot box. Let's do away with the judiciary and be done with it.

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The airplane is impounded and some days later Thaksin, that already lost his previous permission to stay based on it being given through corruption in the German local government, crosses some palms with silver and is once again able to fly and visit the nation?

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I think that there is more behind this than meets the eyes - I just don't know what it is....

Some 4-6 weeks ago there was an article in a German newspaper claiming that Mr. T was sighted in Munich for a secret meeting with the (assumed) owner of the 737 - and that was when he was still banned from entering the country due to an illegally obtained visa.

The newspaper strongly suggested that the German secret service (BND) somehow helped him to by-pass the passport control.

Edited by CNF55
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Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's entry into Germany on July 15, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reported. /via@ThanongK

If that isn't convenient,lifting the ban exactly at the moment the great leader is knocking at the gate.

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http://www.faz.net/a...d-30470938.html

This is the official news report from July 22, 2011 - it says, the German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle revoked the ban for Thaksin due to the change of the political situation in Thailand. Since July 15, 2011 Thaksin is allowed to enter Germany. It also says that Germany didn´t contact Thai authorities or officials to share the decision of the German government.

Funny old business. Either Thaksin is an on the run convicted criminal or his isn't. Presumably Germany recognised that he was when they banned him. Now because there has been a change in the political situation in Thailand, he isn't?

Guilt or innocence determined by the ballot box. Let's do away with the judiciary and be done with it.

You get it wrong.

It's in the opening post : "The German government declared Thaksin persona non grata, banning him from entering the country, after his repeated phone-in addresses to anti-government rallies in Thailand."

The ban was not based on his "conviction" (no democracy will recognized a conviction by a military junta that has ousted a democratically elected government) but because no country will accept that someone conducts from its soil hostile activities against a friendly government. It's the same reason why Thaksin was banned from the UK.

Now that, for obvious reasons, Thaksin has stopped his "hostile" activities, there is no more reason to stop him to visit the country.

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They just dont listen to concerns or have any vehicle by which people can reach them. And they basically are seen to respond only to the wealthy elements of BKK, the people of the south and the middle classes around some central urban areas.

So sure it's the government not listening to the north? As I recall this government is waaay better then the last ones we had. They even sat down with the red shirts to negotiate with them. Previous governments would have simply grenade attacked them out (happened to the yellow shirts and Samack's government after all).

As I recall it was Taksin the PM himself who declared that he was going to prioritise aid to those provinces that voted for him and used the "war on drugs" campaign to kill political opponents in the south. Yet you wonder why the poor south don't vote for his party? I love how you pretend this is about class when it isn't. It's simply about the northern provinces getting what they want at the expense of everyone else.

There is no connect at all to virtually any rural Thai people north of BKK, and this is now all openly talked about.

Same old story, Taksin's party can do no wrong in northern eyes because they simply don't care about the rest of the country. They believe the government should be 100% about northern provinces interests hence why they vote for the one party that gives them anything they want and has a history of ignoring the rest of the country.

The thing that really annoys me is how you and those saying your pieces love to pretend that the north is the only poor provinces in Thailand; like everyone is ignoring the poor when in actual fact most provinces in Thailand are poor. Simple fact is the north wants all the resources spent on them and that's why they're so adamant about getting PTP and Taksin back in power.

Stop trying to pretend this is about rich vs poor when it's north vs. thailand.

The Democrats used to the previous managed democracy have been left behind as Thailand becomes more democratic

It's laughably ignorant to call him 'used to the previous management' when he's been fighting with the rest of the minority parties past Taksin's censorship for years to even be allowed to speak to the people. Quite the hypocrite when Yingluck's party is a return to that same old democracy you talk about, some of their campaign promises are the same as those that were canceled after Taksin was thrown out.

Simple fact is that Taksin was an awful dictator PM that only ever cared about a couple of northern provinces because that's what won him the elections and nothing has changed ever since. So quick how everyone forgets the horrible history only to whine about the better present.

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http://www.faz.net/a...d-30470938.html

This is the official news report from July 22, 2011 - it says, the German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle revoked the ban for Thaksin due to the change of the political situation in Thailand. Since July 15, 2011 Thaksin is allowed to enter Germany. It also says that Germany didn´t contact Thai authorities or officials to share the decision of the German government.

Funny old business. Either Thaksin is an on the run convicted criminal or his isn't. Presumably Germany recognised that he was when they banned him. Now because there has been a change in the political situation in Thailand, he isn't?

Guilt or innocence determined by the ballot box. Let's do away with the judiciary and be done with it.

You get it wrong.

It's in the opening post : "The German government declared Thaksin persona non grata, banning him from entering the country, after his repeated phone-in addresses to anti-government rallies in Thailand."

The ban was not based on his "conviction" (no democracy will recognized a conviction by a military junta that has ousted a democratically elected government) but because no country will accept that someone conducts from its soil hostile activities against a friendly government. It's the same reason why Thaksin was banned from the UK.

Now that, for obvious reasons, Thaksin has stopped his "hostile" activities, there is no more reason to stop him to visit the country.

When did he stop those phone ins,I remember he did some only a few weeks ago.Or do you mean phone ins from German territory,which was impossible since he was banned,isn't it.

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