Mob Rule Disguised As Democracy; Thai Opinion

[Jingthing]

I think it's clear. Their goal is to GET amnesty for all red shirts, including blatant terrorists, and also of course priority ONE, the man himself, and to GIVE as little amnesty as possible to the opposition, ideally NONE, in "exchange" for their side's amnesty.

[Jingthing]

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” Thomas Jefferson

“Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all other forms that have been tried.” Sir Winston Churchill

Jefferson was indeed a populist. But if you want to know who actually created the institutions that made the USA a great world power, it was Alexander Hamilton, a federalist, closely allied with George WASHINGTON. Jefferson and Hamilton were indeed bitter enemies. The vision of Jefferson was a land of citizen farmers, no more.

All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and the well-born; the other the mass of the people ... turbulent and changing, they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the Government ... Nothing but a permanent body can check the imprudence of democracy.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Jingthing

[hammered]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

I asked a week or so ago if anyone had heard a PTP definition of the word "reconciliation" and got no positive response.

Since you said they have "a fairly clear line on reconcilliation" could you please spell out what that is? Thanks.

Everyone gets an amnestied. Some of the reds dont agree with it but you get dissention a poltical party.

Have they officially given up on the alternative 'injustice' panels idea now? That suggestion to have carefully selected panels 'review' the cases of individuals who had suffered 'injustices' at the hands of the judicial system or who maybe were in need of some?

Ways to get to the end. An amnesty becomes more popular when those so far uninvestigated and protected by a friendly government find themselves with charges, and there are enough things out there for a new attorney general to find the odd charge or so if they want to

[DumFarang]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

You seem to have a problem with separating the number of people who voted PT from the number of seats they won. They won the majority of seats but they were elected by a minority of the people.

Also how many of the votes they received were for them and not just against the Dems.

They may have the vote in the house but it is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

You talk of a mandate they got. That is what is yet to be seen already they are backing down on their promises. These promises were a lot of the reason they got elected. It remains to be seen how that will work out.

How long do you think they would hold together if Yingluck was to refuse to do as her brother wishes and reign the red shirts in? It is not a easy task ahead of her far from a slam dunk much as you would like it to be.

Exactly, they ran a smart campaign and managed to take the most powerful provinces (seat-wise). If a certain poster has trouble comprehending this perhaps he or she should reference how Al Gore lost to George Bush even though he had more popular votes. I have to admit, it is confusing and easily understood at the same time.

Now that the PTP managed that they have to figure out what on Earth to do with their new-found power, because it appears a mob may be awaiting their hard fought results.

[Steely Dan]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

That's quite hilarious considering the murder of passing civilians and the torching of Bangkok by the red rabble, whose leaders are now threatening trouble if they are not made into MP's. Perhaps they would welcome the yellow shirts to protest in a similar manner such as blocking the centers of towns in red voting areas bringing business to a halt for weeks and then setting fire to the place when moved on.

And you talk about check and balance mechanisms.

[toybits]

Wouldn't the original article have more weight if it also wrote about the "link" between the Democrat Party and the Yellow Shirts?

Edited July 29, 2011 by toybits

[dominique355]

Haven't we seen all this before?

Chairman Mao Thaksin (Thaksin thinks, PT does)

The Communist party aka Pheua Thai a bunch of nodders, such as to Thaksin's choice of the PM, aka his clone.

The Red Guards aka The Red Shirts, nobody controls them, nobody wants to control them, since they are a convenient instrument of intimidation. (We will burn down this city and blame the government for it).

But everything is fine in the best of all possible worlds. The people have voted (vox populi vox dei aka vox bovi).

A democracy which does not respect the minority is a tyranny.

Lord have mercy since they don't know what they are doing!

[Moonrakers]

I think.

Time Thai security forces track IP address of foreigner 'anti' government posters and remove from country with red stamp in passport.

Now THAT is Thai democracy.

[Jingthing]

I don't doubt the "people" want Thaksin. The problem is that when they realize they don't want him anymore, whether they will be able to get rid of him, and his emerging family dynasty.

[rixalex]

I think.

Time Thai security forces track IP address of foreigner 'anti' government posters and remove from country with red stamp in passport.

Let's not stop at just foreigners. How about locking up anyone who dares speak out against the government. Now that is what i call democracy... red style. Intimidate, harass and threaten, until all the sheep in the flock obediently follow, without question.

[MunterHunter]

I think.

Time Thai security forces track IP address of foreigner 'anti' government posters and remove from country with red stamp in passport.

Now THAT is Thai democracy.

No problem, i will take my tax dollars and investments somewhere else, I'm not emotionally tied to this country i'm here only for business and work. And lets be honest, if the government gets to the point they are doing this, its probably a good time to pack up and leave anyway... starts to sound more like comunist China or North Korea if they deport anyone who disagrees with them

[DumFarang]

Haven't we seen all this before?

Chairman Mao Thaksin (Thaksin thinks, PT does)

The Communist party aka Pheua Thai a bunch of nodders, such as to Thaksin's choice of the PM, aka his clone.

The Red Guards aka The Red Shirts, nobody controls them, nobody wants to control them, since they are a convenient instrument of intimidation. (We will burn down this city and blame the government for it).

But everything is fine in the best of all possible worlds. The people have voted (vox populi vox dei aka vox bovi).

A democracy which does not respect the minority is a tyranny.

Lord have mercy since they don't know what they are doing!

Perhaps you have missed the thin line between democracy and mobocracy. Yes, it's hard to see, but it's there. It's a simple thing really. If the Red Shirts continue to have influence over Thai politics, especially if it ever starts to come down to specific decisions politicians should make by themselves; then Thailand will be a mobocracy. As long as the elected officials make the decisions they make all by themselves and the peoples' power is to vote for them or their party again or not, then it's a democracy. Ignoring the minority has nothing to do with it. If Thailand is in fact a functioning democracy then even "ignored" people get a vote. Maybe the result of that is what we just saw in the last election.

[Moruya]

Has anyone on here read Animal Farm?

[OlafStapleton]

If the Red Shirts continue to have influence over Thai politics, especially if it ever starts to come down to specific decisions politicians should make by themselves; then Thailand will be a mobocracy. As long as the elected officials make the decisions they make all by themselves and the peoples' power is to vote for them or their party again or not, then it's a democracy. Ignoring the minority has nothing to do with it. If Thailand is in fact a functioning democracy then even "ignored" people get a vote. Maybe the result of that is what we just saw in the last election.

What does 'lobbyist' do in America? (nobody elect)

What does 'political party' do? (nobody elect)

How are reds different to any other 'pressure group'?

Edited July 29, 2011 by OlafStapleton

[noahvail]

Democracy is doing just fine in Thailand ???? Really ???? Do they even know what Democracy means? There has never been democracy in Thailand and never will be in my lifetime whilst corrupt politicians and convicted persons are allowed to have a say in how the country is run.

Time Thai security forces track IP address of foreigner 'anti' government posters and remove from country with red stamp in passport.

So, since the caretaker government is pretty much Democrat, you must mean you want all the red-shirt supporter posters removed?

[Jingthing]

If the Red Shirts continue to have influence over Thai politics, especially if it ever starts to come down to specific decisions politicians should make by themselves; then Thailand will be a mobocracy. As long as the elected officials make the decisions they make all by themselves and the peoples' power is to vote for them or their party again or not, then it's a democracy. Ignoring the minority has nothing to do with it. If Thailand is in fact a functioning democracy then even "ignored" people get a vote. Maybe the result of that is what we just saw in the last election.

What does 'lobbyist' do in America? (nobody elect)

What does 'political party' do? (nobody elect)

How are reds different to any other 'pressure group'?

The Molotov cocktails for a start ...

[rixalex]

If the Red Shirts continue to have influence over Thai politics, especially if it ever starts to come down to specific decisions politicians should make by themselves; then Thailand will be a mobocracy. As long as the elected officials make the decisions they make all by themselves and the peoples' power is to vote for them or their party again or not, then it's a democracy. Ignoring the minority has nothing to do with it. If Thailand is in fact a functioning democracy then even "ignored" people get a vote. Maybe the result of that is what we just saw in the last election.

What does 'lobbyist' do in America? (nobody elect)

What does 'political party' do? (nobody elect)

How are reds different to any other 'pressure group'?

The Molotov cocktails for a start ...

Now that's not fair. It was the pretend reds who threw those.

[DumFarang]

If the Red Shirts continue to have influence over Thai politics, especially if it ever starts to come down to specific decisions politicians should make by themselves; then Thailand will be a mobocracy. As long as the elected officials make the decisions they make all by themselves and the peoples' power is to vote for them or their party again or not, then it's a democracy. Ignoring the minority has nothing to do with it. If Thailand is in fact a functioning democracy then even "ignored" people get a vote. Maybe the result of that is what we just saw in the last election.

What does 'lobbyist' do in America? (nobody elect)

What does 'political party' do? (nobody elect)

How are reds different to any other 'pressure group'?

What does a town hall meeting in a America do? We're not talking about America or the state of its democracy. What does this have to do with the topic here, and why did you bring the U.S. into it?

[Pi Sek]

PTP (by any name) win every election

Replaced by Democrat (by any name) by the army after every election

Thailand have 20 coup in 25 year. This not democracy.

I think democracy mean government by win election. Not government by force of army.

Democracy not about corrupt (if is then America not democracy either).

In Israel terrorist become MPs

In USA terrorist become MPs

In Ireland terrorist become MPs

It's called winning, better by vote than by civil war.

I think.

You don't think.

Thailand has had 2 coups in the last 25 years.

Did you know that a Democrat government has been overthrown by a coup?

How many times was a Thaksin proxy party replaced by the Democrats? Certainly not after every election. Only once, after the courts disbanded the PPP and they lost the support of a couple of their factions and coalition partners did the Democrats replace them.

Time Thai security forces track IP address of foreigner 'anti' government posters and remove from country with red stamp in passport.

Yay for Red Democracy.

Classic!

[Pi Sek]

I asked a week or so ago if anyone had heard a PTP definition of the word "reconciliation" and got no positive response.

Since you said they have "a fairly clear line on reconcilliation" could you please spell out what that is? Thanks.

Everyone gets an amnestied. Some of the reds dont agree with it but you get dissention a poltical party.

On the amnesty thing, the PTP have jumped from one contradicting statement to the next, from one week to the next. What you see as a fairly clear line, i see as being very blurry. Pass me your glasses.

Indeed. In fact, maybe it is because I am of insufficient intelligence but it's very blurry to me too.

Anyway, if everyone gets amnestied and I have a friend with a conviction for 6.7g of dried marijouana which was placed in their house in 2007 prior to a forced police entry without a warrant, due to a DSI officer marrying his ex-gf who wanted to come back to him after getting frustrated with her hubby's mia noi exploits, in a case which my friend brought to court (out of choice) and the prosecution witnesses gave three hugely different accounts... can he claim this was a "politically motivated" conviction and get it overturned, if we're talking about amnesty for all?

Edited July 29, 2011 by Pi Sek

[noahvail]

I asked a week or so ago if anyone had heard a PTP definition of the word "reconciliation" and got no positive response.

Since you said they have "a fairly clear line on reconcilliation" could you please spell out what that is? Thanks.

Everyone gets an amnestied. Some of the reds dont agree with it but you get dissention a poltical party.

On the amnesty thing, the PTP have jumped from one contradicting statement to the next, from one week to the next. What you see as a fairly clear line, i see as being very blurry. Pass me your glasses.

Indeed. In fact, maybe it is because I am of insufficient intelligence but it's very blurry to me too.

Anyway, if everyone gets amnestied and I have a friend with a conviction for 6.7g of dried marijouana which was placed in their house in 2007 prior to a forced police entry without a warrant, due to a DSI officer marrying his ex-gf who wanted to come back to him after getting frustrated with her hubby's mia noi exploits, in a case which my friend brought to court (out of choice) and the prosecution witnesses gave three hugely different accounts... can he claim this was a "politically motivated" conviction and get it overturned, if we're talking about amnesty for all?

Well, I was hoping to hear from someone who had an actual statement from Yingluck or another PTP leader as to the definition of reconciliation. I thought perhaps any of those posters who are PTP supporters might have a linkable definition from the PTP. But no, the silence from those folks is deafeningly loud. All's the pity, I thought it would be nice to know what was meant by a word that was purported to be a large part of PTP policy.

[hellodolly]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

You seem to have a problem with separating the number of people who voted PT from the number of seats they won. They won the majority of seats but they were elected by a minority of the people.

Also how many of the votes they received were for them and not just against the Dems.

They may have the vote in the house but it is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

You talk of a mandate they got. That is what is yet to be seen already they are backing down on their promises. These promises were a lot of the reason they got elected. It remains to be seen how that will work out.

How long do you think they would hold together if Yingluck was to refuse to do as her brother wishes and reign the red shirts in? It is not a easy task ahead of her far from a slam dunk much as you would like it to be.

So in virtually no country does anyone have a mandate to govern according to your thinking. Plkuralistic democracy is about seats. They have over half and about 48% of the vote. That is huge by any standard. The guys in the us congreess currently having a mandate to not raise tax were electded on a turnout of under 50%. Does that mean they have no right to do waht they do? Blair and Thatcher never got anywhere near 48% and they both governed in a way they wanted and were always seen as hhaving a huge mandate. real world poltics

Well done you managed to not answer one question. I think my points were very valid. What is it you think they are mandated to do if not for fulfilling there promises.

Time will tell. I repeat it is not a slam dunk for Yingluck.

Time will tell. Once the original euphoric has worn off and the red shirts in her party come trying to push their agenda. If the poor people don't get there 300 baht a day if the farmers and taxi drivers don't get there credit cards. She has a lot of promises to live up to and making excuses before she actually takes the PM is not a good start.

How about the poor factory worker who has spent 10 years working up to 300 baht a day and in walks a 17 year old kid and starts at 300 baht a day. Last but not least is her brother.

I wish her well. It is a good thing the Dems have the well fare of Thailand at heart. Can you imagine her having to fight off a Terrorist attack in down town Bangkok.

On another note did you notice that the red shirts are threatening to sue the EC if their man Jatpurin is not recognized. I personally think he is a PT and it should be the PT fighting for him to be seated. Do the red shirts not consider them selves PT?

[MILT]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

Not sure where you are from and don't really care. Democracy is not doing fine in thailand. How for the past 2 years Thailand has been held hostage by the red mob rule and being manipulated by one man bent on returning to power no matter what the cost.

[Ricardo]

I think.

Time Thai security forces track IP address of foreigner 'anti' government posters and remove from country with red stamp in passport.

Yay for Red Democracy !

[hammered]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

Not sure where you are from and don't really care. Democracy is not doing fine in thailand. How for the past 2 years Thailand has been held hostage by the red mob rule and being manipulated by one man bent on returning to power no matter what the cost.

We have just had an election. There is a seated senate. The EC has just got through seating more elected MPs without recourse to cards than ever before. There is a functioning court system with various people including some elected officials with cases coming up. There are investigations into a variety of extreme events although those on both sides are not overly cooperative. However the people have decided who they want to run the country. The people have in effect backed the red movement or its supporters in parliament. Now if you bither checking my previosu posting history you will probably think that I wouldnt like this, but reality is that it is democracy in action. It is the ones that try to thwart this that are anti-democratic. However, they are no longer in ascendancy

[Bakseedaa]

Democracy is about accepting the will of the people despite objections to process. The new government may surprise the naysayers and achieve progress. Exactly which democracy on Earth is referred to in terms of absence of corruption and self interested politicians? Red, Yellow, Black or Purple Thailand is a great land and remains amazing. Support the democratic process, accept the will of the people and hope for peace and progress. Good luck to Yingluck. May you succeed and achieve.

And the moon is made of Green Cheese... get a life...!

[metisdead]

A post containing false information and replies have been removed.

Another post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

[DumFarang]

Mmmm actually elected governments with a majority can do what they want as long as they do it through the constitutional system and not illegally. The PTP have a very clear policy platformand a fairly clear line on reconcilliation. Whether I or anyone else likes it or not is utterly irrelevent. They have been backed by the Thai people to carry those unhidden things out. If the PTP does not satisfy the people or enacts reconcilliation in a way the people dont want they can vote them out at the next election or use their democratic right to demonstrate if they feel it is of more urgency. Also in the meantime there is a senate and a whole bunch of check and balance mechanisms. Democracy is doing fine in Thailand.

I didnt notice this rag attacking the threats made against the EC if they dared to seat Jatuporn.

By the way, the mandate the PTP got under the system would be consdiered very strong in any country even a landslide.

Not sure where you are from and don't really care. Democracy is not doing fine in thailand. How for the past 2 years Thailand has been held hostage by the red mob rule and being manipulated by one man bent on returning to power no matter what the cost.

We have just had an election. There is a seated senate. The EC has just got through seating more elected MPs without recourse to cards than ever before. There is a functioning court system with various people including some elected officials with cases coming up. There are investigations into a variety of extreme events although those on both sides are not overly cooperative. However the people have decided who they want to run the country. The people have in effect backed the red movement or its supporters in parliament. Now if you bither checking my previosu posting history you will probably think that I wouldnt like this, but reality is that it is democracy in action. It is the ones that try to thwart this that are anti-democratic. However, they are no longer in ascendancy

However, per the article, this leaves the Red Shirts out of the anti-democratic argument and drags the aristocracy (or the former government I'm not sure which) in. Everybody knows we just had an election. Everybody knows the PTP won.

The previous post says "The people have in effect backed the red movement or its supporters in parliament." Once again, that's not new information. Why did the people back the Red Shirts? Is Thailand becoming a mobocracy/ochlocracy?

In this political climate can Yingluck, Thaksin, and/or the PTP satisfy the masses? Are there two mobs: the reds and yellows? Will one or both of the factions not get their way and continue protesting and rioting to force political change?

And lastly, is democracy really in action if the answer to a single question of the mob is yes?

[Babcock]

The PTP definition of reconciliation is multi-faceted:

Firstly there is complete exoneration of the red-shirts (We have done nothing wrong!) which should take pace before the end of the year according to PTP MP Mrs Arisman, who expects hubby home by Xmas, in time to take up his place as Minister of Propaganda.

Second is the complete absolution of anybody related to the Shinawatra clan for all crimes past, present, currently being planned, or yet to be conceived. k.Thaksin will return as Yingluk's special adviser (for this term) and will sit in parliament slightly behind and to her left, his right arm out of sight. A special law will be passed making it treasonous to claim that you can see his lips moving while she speaks.

Third is the prosecution of all MPs of the Democrat and BJT parties for crimes against humanity the Red Shirt movement whilst carrying out their legitimate duties of office. This is not considered to be an excuse as the legitimate duties of office are seen by PTP as mere inconveniences whilst carrying out their more venal aspirations. A law will be passed re-instating capital punishment - hung, drawn and quartered is being considered, but considered by the Red Shirts to be too mild.

Fourth is removal from office and public denigration of all Army and DSI officers, public servants and journalists who assisted or supported the Democrat coalition while in office; very similar to the treatment of Nazi collaborators after the liberation of European countries. I believe this has already started.

Fifth (but not least, and particularly apt) the Red Shirts will become the semi-autonomous, semi-official Political Police with the duties of suppressing dissent and non-Shinawatra thought, and the harassment of those opposing PTP and Red-shirt policies.

I certainly hope they put the dsi etc on trial. Abhisit will probably flee to UK.

[patjem]

Has anyone on here read Animal Farm?

Some haven't even read the dictionary definition of 'mandate'