Obama Announces Deal To Raise Debt Limit, Cut Spending

[snarky66]

2 recessions. Someones reading comprehension is very very poor. FAIL.

Both of those started under Bush. I see you didn't bother reading the linked article from that response.

So that's how the left works. Take a story that says the reason for "revenue" shortfalls - in English tax receipts is in large measure 2 recessions . Then choose the part you like "tax relief" & blame the problem on that part you cherry-picked.

Selective amnesia. Reading comprehension failure.

[flying]

Both parties are to blame for TARP "too big to fail" etc.

Ding Ding....Give this man a cupie doll.

The same reason this problem can never be fixed with the current government is the same reason most folks will

go round & round over it.

Right wing....Left wing....same broken, corrupt, lobbyist controlled, bird.

As for taxation? Yes once upon a time when the can was not so far down the road. Too late now the customers are broke.

But for decades instead they led you to believe that you had a choice. Led you to believe this time will be different.

The reason folks are extra mad at the latest liar is his Chicago Campaign was so very very slick folks

actually thought this time would be different. Hope & Change...Yes We Can !!

But what is the reality?

Vote Left....that didn't work

Vote Right...that didn't work

Vote Left....Obviously this is not working

Vote Right?....Take a guess....will it magically work this time?

Wake up look at the top campaign contributors for both sides.

See a similarity?

The US government is a mirror of this thread.

The mods could let it run 5000 pages & the result would be the same as what we see in Washington.

Which is why when folks like JT say the tea party does not even listen to their own leader Boehner I smile with a tiny bit

of satisfaction. Because that means they are doing their jobs.

I do not say they have the answers. That we will see.

But I KNOW the rest do not & have proven that over & over & over.

If nothing else it will change soon because we are headed off a cliff.

For myself the Tea Party is Ron Paul & where it began & most of the rest rode his coat tails.

What newer members are saying Ron Paul has been saying for years.

Many do not belong & are trying to get on board. Hopefully folks know the difference.

I would like to see a return to common sense

Edit: One more cupie doll for the man whose post I did not see

In my opinion they are all to blame and should be replaced, preferable with people with MBA's not lawyers. The sooner the better.

Edited August 8, 2011 by flying

[cloudhopper]

But what is the reality?

Vote Left....that didn't work

Vote Right...that didn't work

Vote Left....Obviously this is not working

Vote Right?....Take a guess....will it magically work this time?

This is the reality in DC flying

[craigt3365]

Of course any politician would say "I'll fix this mess" when running for office. Sadly Barry's "fixes" have made the problem much much worse than it needed to be.

I wonder if the American people are fed up with "bail-outs" yet? $86 billion to A.I.G.? I wonder if that could happen again? Or would they let GM go through an orderly bankruptcy? Or say a firm that is not as heavily union as GM?

Both parties are to blame for TARP "too big to fail" etc.

TARP was actually not a bad program:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/30/news/economy/tarp_program/index.htm?hpt=T2

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Don't look now, but the bank bailout is starting to turn a profit.

The Treasury Department announced Wednesday that the money it gave to banks during the financial crisis has been paid back, and then some. The bank bailout -- part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program -- is now $6 billion in the black, a profit that might ultimately rise to $20 billion, according to the Treasury.

There is also the issue of cost. According to the latest estimate of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, TARP -- the whole program -- will ultimately cost taxpayers $19 billion, mostly due to losses from assistance to AIG, the auto industry and HAMP.

Still, that number is far lower than anticipated by most analysts -- including CBO, which initially estimated that TARP would lose hundreds of billions of dollars. Treasury has displayed a stellar track record thus far in recouping taxpayer funds, but there are a few problem areas.

CBO estimates that the roughly $80 billion auto bailout will end up costing taxpayers $14 billion. And HAMP, which is a grants program and was never expected to return a profit to taxpayers, will eventually cost $13 billion.

Regarding the auto bailout, still pretty good:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/21/autos/chrysler_bailout_costs_gains/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Including the $1.3 billion loss on its Chrysler investment, announced Thursday, the United States government has lost about $14 billion on the auto industry bail-out. All in all, it was a bargain.

That $14 billion figure is far less than than the $40 billion bath the Congressional Budget Office expected U.S. taxpayers to take in the total auto industry bailout.

Saying the U.S. taxpayer "lost money" is probably the wrong perspective, considering that spending no money at all likely would have meant a financial catastrophe for millions of Americans far in excess of a mere $14 billion.

Had GM and Chrysler collapsed, it would have cost the federal government about $28.6 billion in lost tax revenues and assistance to the unemployed in just the first two years alone, according to the Michigan-based Center for Automotive Research. In other words, doing nothing could have cost more than twice as much the bailout.

[Scott]

A Video clip of the Vietnam was has been removed. If you want to discuss the military, then do so in the context of the topic and that would have to do with expenditures and costs.

[flying]

A Video clip of the Vietnam was has been removed. If you want to discuss the military, then do so in the context of the topic and that would have to do with expenditures and costs.

Sorry did not mean to involve yet another waste of expenditures failed invasion.

Was replying to CH's money for nothing idea shown via video.

I wanted only to show the lyrics because at the end of the day the song remains the same.

the expenditures have a lot to do with where we stand today with the debt ceiling.

That was the only video of that song with lyrics I found

Frivolous Expenditures & costs that are based in fear.

Anyway here are the appropriate lyrics.

There's something happening here

What it is ain't exactly clear

There's a man with a gun over there

Telling me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn

Nobody's right if everybody's wrong

Young people speaking their minds

Getting so much resistance from behind

I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

What a field-day for the heat

A thousand people in the street

Singing songs and carrying signs

Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep

Into your life it will creep

It starts when you're always afraid

You step out of line, the man come and take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

Stop, hey, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

Stop, now, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

Stop, children, what's that sound

Everybody look what's going down

Edited August 8, 2011 by flying

[flying]

Here ya go flying. Just as relevant today but sadly I don't see too many thousands in the street in DC yet. Maybe we've reached critical mass of those who need to take the blue pill every day.

Thanks CH...Yes very relevant today. Sadly as you say this time the US is the last to join the thousands in the streets.

I see it everyday on TV in other countries.

Perhaps your right about the blue pill gang

But I do remember these....

It was the Tea Party Express in DC on 9/12/09

Obama flew out that day & claimed he did not even see it from Marine Ones window

[BuckarooBanzai]

The sad truth is regardless of whose fault the deficit is (and both parties are certainly to blame) this was not the time and place to contest it. The government debt is a done deal and no place to hold the "dept ceiling" as a bargaining chip. The result of the debacle over the last couple of months is that our government has shown the world it does not wish to pay its already existing debt. Doing so has led us to increased unplanned expenditures in the form of interest increases for both our government debt and shortly for all the debt the rest of us carry. The blame for this outrages performance lays solely at the feet of the republicans. Especially the elite Tea Party.

The time to contest expenditures is during the budget development phase plain and simple. Let them fight out the expenditure before they are approved - not after they are spent. If changes in the current domestic debt structure is required this is also the appropriate time and place to debate it - not when our governments foreign dept is held hostage as well. This should have been an internalized debate and not a world wide dog and pony show. Our current ingenuous geniuses in Congress have pretty much destroyed the international credibility of the United States and have thoroughly embarrassed the great majority of their constituency as well.

Time to clean house (and senate).

[flying]

The time to contest expenditures is during the budget development phase plain and simple. Let them fight out the expenditure before they are approved

Yes but is that not what they do each & every year.

Agree on a budget then blow through it in 6 months?

The time to stop it is at any opportunity from here on in.

I do not have any outrage for anyone trying to stop it even dead in its tracks

Only for those who brought us to the cliff.

Logic & reason does not work with this group & never has.

They will overspend then claim hey we spent it now you need to raise our limit once again.

End game is close.

Watch the markets tomorrow & see a preview.

Look at gold tonight in Asia/Europe up nearly $50/0z already & over the $1700/oz mark

You are witnessing a loss of faith

[Scott]

Another video clip has been deleted. No more music, lyrics or poems....not even "Money for nothing and chicks for free."

Please stay on the topic. The fat lady has sung.

[koheesti]

Now back to the tea-free world of REALITY! --

Almost all of the blame goes to Bush, and the tea party nihilist radicals are making it much worse. Revenues! Need more revenues.

I'll ask for a third time - HOW will any additional revenues be used?

That's a baiting question. Do you imagine I am accountant and can give you precise percentages?

I'm not asking for details. But let me tell you how any additional tax revenues would be used - Congress (both parties) would not put one penny towards debt relief. Congress knows only how to spend. So what good does it do our debt to raise taxes if all they are going to do is waste it? It's the same as if I get a 2nd job because my credit card debt is too high. When I get my paycheck, instead of sending a nice check to my credit card, I go out and buy a new car which I didn't need instead.

It used to be that Democrats controlled Congress for decades. Then in 1994 Republicans took over. Since then control has been see-sawing back and forth as the voters get fed up with the party in control. It seems like each time the losing party becomes the Party of No, knowing that they will be back in power in 2 to 4 years as the voters get disgusted again. REMEMBER - the primary objective of every Congressman is to get re-elected. Doing what is best for the country often runs contrary to this objective and the end result is we are screwed.

[BuckarooBanzai]

The time to contest expenditures is during the budget development phase plain and simple. Let them fight out the expenditure before they are approved

Yes but is that not what they do each & every year.

Agree on a budget then blow through it in 6 months?

The time to stop it is at any opportunity from here on in.

I do not have any outrage for anyone trying to stop it even dead in its tracks

Only for those who brought us to the cliff.

Logic & reason does not work with this group & never has.

They will overspend then claim hey we spent it now you need to raise our limit once again.

End game is close.

Watch the markets tomorrow & see a preview.

Look at gold tonight in Asia/Europe up nearly $50/0z already & over the $1700/oz mark

You are witnessing a loss of faith

I do not disagree on the reality of congressional overruns:

One source of these problems is old-fashioned bungling by administrators. One recent example stemmed from the rush to hire airport screeners for the Transportation Security Administration in 2002. The initial contract for the recruiting work was for $104 million, but the cost ballooned to $741 million after many bureaucratic mistakes. The Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security concluded that the TSA did virtually no planning for the effort and it ignored warnings that project costs were far exceeding the approved budget.39

Projects that are financed by the federal government and carried out by state governments, such as highway projects, are particularly prone to mismanagement. In such activities, the states have little incentive to manage funds wisely because they know that federal taxpayers are footing much of the bill. When cost overruns occur, federal officials point their fingers at state officials. In turn, state officials point their fingers at contractors for their poor performance, as occurred with the Big Dig. No level of government takes responsibility, and taxpayers are left holding the bag.

However, there is more to cost overruns than bureaucratic failure or political buck-passing. There is also a strong incentive for all the supporters of spending projects — in Congress, the bureaucracy, and lobby groups — to low-ball initial estimates of costs in order to receive legislative approval. Once a program receives approval and it moves ahead, it becomes very difficult to terminate even if it becomes an obvious boondoggle.

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/government-cost-overruns Many other sites as well.

But I disagree that this then deserves a no holds barred free for all for political posturing which is what has taken place. We should leave the rest of the world out of it. Once again both sides are at fault and both need to work together to resolve the problems.

We need a transparent federal budget and clear and timely tracking of expenditures. Those who do not follow the rules should be at minimum removed from positions of power (fired or impeached).

New bi-partisan rules need to be established regarding budgetary over-site in Congress and the incessant political bickering is not the way to get that done. When are they going to realize that the problem lies in both of their camps? Sadly I think most of them already know that but find it impossible to drop the political posturing. It is apparent that they just do not want to solve the problem. So again I say it is time for a house and senate cleaning.

[Jingthing]

To paraphrase a veteran commentator on Fareed Zakaria GPS.

60 percent of Americans support the president's approach (60 percent is an overwhelming majority in American politics) which was a REAL SOLUTION -- a balanced approach of addressing GROWTH and jobs,(no debt reduction EVER possible without that), plus cuts, plus revenue. Tea people, cuts ONLY. Not a solution at all, but going backwards. A minority within a minority (tea people/republicans) dictates their radical simplistic ideological policy AGAINST the will of the majority.

Something is very broken. Yes, the tea people are the major threat now to any possibility of getting out of this.

I think politically they do need to be attacked aggressively and constantly to point out again and again how dangerous they are.

In our fixation with a deeply ideological debate over government spending, we have lost track of what really matters. Washington, acting in concert with other nations, should be focused on creating jobs and restoring growth. It needs to deal with a housing mess and personal debts that have destroyed the balance sheets of millions of households. It needs to increase consumer purchasing power. And it should be expanding public investments in the nation’s future, not cutting them.

Yet the world is looking to the United States to help power a recovery and provide leadership at a time when we are suffocatingly inward-looking — and when ultra-conservatives are so dogmatic about slashing government that they are prepared to boot away our nation’s influence. Default? No problem.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/can-america-still-lead/2011/08/07/gIQAPeuE1I_story.html Edited August 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Scott]

One off-topic post and a reply have been deleted. Please stay on the topic.

[koheesti]

The US government has to find a way of increasing revenue. The harsh reality is that tax increases are the only likely way of achieving that, but that is politically difficult after the irresponsible years of propaganda that tax cuts were great.

Tax increases are not the only way. Increasing the tax base would raise even more. Get the unemployment rate back down to 5% where it was 4-6 years ago (http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000) instead of 9% and tax revenues from individuals and businesses will shoot up. Of course, Congress would find some way to piss it away.

Edited August 8, 2011 by koheesti

[Jingthing]

Increased revenue in the tax code PLUS much lower unemployment (growth), PLUS judicious CUTS including the military, PLUS smart stimuli (infrastructure investment). I would add real universal health care with real cost efficiencies but for some insane masochistic reason, that is politically impossible. Purist supply side economics doesn't work. As I said before, also raise the social security tax income cap, and give strong incentives for employers to hire ... NOW. Long term, the most serious problems are lack of growth, massive unemployment (thus revenue shortfalls and no way out), and MEDICARE. Medicare is a monster so I do wonder if the entire population of citizens should be put into universal managed cost health care (illegals, stabilize, then deport). Having a ceiling on medical costs and also providing universal coverage would make the US much more competitive with our first world competition.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

Might be useful to examine how we got into this mess. Because some claim Obama inherited this massive economic & fiscal problem.

Alan Greenspan was incredibly good at creating bubbles. By massively increasing the money supply & keeping interest rates way too low for way too long. So 1999-2000 we had the internet stock bubble.

From the instant that bubble was pricked & property bubble began.

House prices were going up 30-40 % per year & in some cases doubling in one year.

I remember President Bush giving a speech in which he stated it was the right of every American to own their own home. So NINJA loans 100% finance - zero down became the norm. People who should never have been qualified for a loan got them. Then the bright boys over at Golden Slacks decided they could bundle these loans & sell them off as securities (all the while THEY were shorting the securities.) But it was the policies of Barney Frank Ed Markey Maxine Waters Shelia Jackson Lee that really made things bad.

So House run by Dems since 2006. Comrade Pelosi in charge.

OK Barack inherited a mess. Created by mostly Dems in the House & Senate,

We are just now seeing MAYBE the unwinding of the commodities bubble. Wheat corn coffee soybeans stuff people use every day. Since the fifties people have been told they can buy whatever they want & just "charge it". Very destructive. Thailand is at the early stages of this right now as plastic becomes more available.

Bankers doing what bankers do is not their problem, it is ours. We are accountable in a democracy and we are letting investment bankers become billionaires for essentially doing nothing that we really need. Why do we stand by and complain when they are just living their version of the American dream and we are sitting around like complete idiots and doing nothing.

I have read everything Ron Paul has written since 1970 and I am convinced that he is the only one who understands the problem to any serious degree; not to mention that he has not sold his soul to the devil like so many of the others have. Problem is more likely his age and untested leadership skills for such an insurmountable responsibility.

"Democracy is more than a matter of 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner." We have to do something other than whining and sniveling.

[Pakboong]

Since the fifties people have been told they can buy whatever they want & just "charge it". Very destructive. Thailand is at the early stages of this right now as plastic becomes more available.

addiction to entitlements has negatively affected our society.

What Entitlement Spending Has Spawned

http://leftfieldperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-entitlement-spending-has-spawned.html

In Thailand pretty much everybody does something to feed and shelter themselves, in the US we pay people whom we do not want to encounter in our daily lives to stay at home. We essentially bribe the underclass to stay out of our lives. Problem is, it is a cancer for which there is no cure and it will eventually destroy the beast who created it.

Social Security is not an entitlement, each of us paid into it for most of our lives. The government is using the money we paid in and leaving an IOU in the pot. Now we are being threatened with not giving us our money because they can't break up that IOU and distribute it to those for whom it is owed.

[snarky66]

Social Security is not an entitlement, each of us paid into it for most of our lives. The government is using the money we paid in and leaving an IOU in the pot. Now we are being threatened with not giving us our money because they can't break up that IOU and distribute it to those for whom it is owed.

ding ding ding we have a winner !!!!!

[snarky66]

So what I was reading today said basically the loon wing of the lib party thinks that the tea party is the problem; not the crushing, unbelievable, unprecedented, eye popping, staggering debt load that Obama & co want to impose on the country.

I see the debt ceiling debate & the caving of Boehner & McConnell as a big victory for Obama. He can add 2 more trillion to the debt. He got to go to chitown for the fund raiser, b day party & victory lap.

The stock market has some other ideas.

Edited August 8, 2011 by snarky66

[Ulysses G.]

Obama really wanted to put the debt ceiling off until after the election and he got his wish.

[venturalaw]

Increased revenue in the tax code PLUS much lower unemployment (growth), PLUS judicious CUTS including the military, PLUS smart stimuli (infrastructure investment). I would add real universal health care with real cost efficiencies but for some insane masochistic reason, that is politically impossible. Purist supply side economics doesn't work. As I said before, also raise the social security tax income cap, and give strong incentives for employers to hire ... NOW. Long term, the most serious problems are lack of growth, massive unemployment (thus revenue shortfalls and no way out), and MEDICARE. Medicare is a monster so I do wonder if the entire population of citizens should be put into universal managed cost health care (illegals, stabilize, then deport). Having a ceiling on medical costs and also providing universal coverage would make the US much more competitive with our first world competition.

The solutions to which you ascribe really make no sense. What else is the government truly responsible for but for the defense of its borders? Social programs merely increase dependency and class envy - both equate to anti-progress. The government has not created a program that has been a success since World War II - and some argue it was a dismal failure.

I am not in agreement with all Tea Party policies (being a Libertarian I am against the government's involvement in our personal lives/choices), however, the Tea Party has a back-to-the-basics approach which many, perhaps most, agree is necessary. Socialism just does not work, and contrary to your assertions, BO's statement about the need to "spread around the wealth", obviously by government mandate, is basic Socialism. However, if you believe that Socialism is the answer, then there probably will never be a pro-capitalism position that you will find acceptable. Self-reliance, individualism, and freedom are contrary to the Socialism model. For me, there is no alternative that will lead America back to the superior position that it once possessed.

[Scott]

It will be interesting to watch this unfold. The debt ceiling has been raised and the Tea Party held the country captive--and won. But now we have a situation where national pride may be injured.

If Americans are nothing else, they can be quite nationalistic.

[Ulysses G.]

They don't think that they won. The spending cuts were minimal - not even enough to satisfy S&P.

[Scott]

I am not arguing the right or wrong of the whole fiasco, or whose fault it is--some would blame the Tea Party, some the President and poor leadership. My point is, it was a very polarized fight--a little like some wars--difficult to figure out who really won and who lost.

Now we have a nation that has been viewed by others and certainly by itself as being the best, strongest and largest economic powerhouse getting a downgrade.

That's a slap in the face (perhaps deserved, but a slap none-the-less).

I've been around for a while and I don't recall anything similar.

[venturalaw]

It will be interesting to watch this unfold. The debt ceiling has been raised and the Tea Party held the country captive--and won. But now we have a situation where national pride may be injured.

If Americans are nothing else, they can be quite nationalistic.

For those who believe the rhetoric that the Tea Party "held hostage" the U.S., I refer you to George Will's essay entitled "Tea Party would defeat Obama by supporting McConnell plan on debt", wherein he candidly pointed out the following:

"Thanks largely to the Tea Party, today, more than at any time since Reagan's arrival 30 years ago, Washington debate is conducted in conservatism's vocabulary of government retrenchment.

The debt-ceiling vote, an action-forcing mechanism of limited utility, has at least demonstrated that Obama is, strictly speaking, unbelievable.

Five months ago he submitted a budget that would have accelerated indebtedness, and that the Democratic-controlled Senate rejected in May, 97 to 0."

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will072211.php3

[Scott]

I did not use the word hostage. I used the word captive; and one thing I must say is that they were quite captivating.

I am more interested at this point on whether this will divide or unite the country. I wonder if a silent majority will surface and be not so silent and on which side the noise will be made.

[venturalaw]

I did not use the word hostage. I used the word captive; and one thing I must say is that they were quite captivating.

I am more interested at this point on whether this will divide or unite the country. I wonder if a silent majority will surface and be not so silent and on which side the noise will be made.

I did not mean to indicate that I was quoting you, however I certainly can see how it could be viewed that way. I was quoting others as will as the mainstream media - who used that terminology over and over.

America more often than not has operated with opposing views occupying government. It normally does not create disruption, but more often compromise.

[snarky66]

NY Times columnist recants & apologizes

NY Times

[maccaroni man]

I'm going to put my 2 cents in on this one as my attitude towards the USA has gone from extreme one polar to the other. When I left CA. in 1996 I felt as though I was being forced to leave; by the tax man. I had a small business and honestly I was always the last person paid; the city, the vendors, the staff, the utilities and then the crumbs for me. The tax man always wanted more. I finally said FO and left for Bali. For years I paid no attention to current events in the states and i was not disturbed by the many europeans I met who loved slagging the USA political system. I did not care, I had washed my hands of the place, sold all my interest, parent were dead the USA was dead to me. Then came 911; when I watched the news coverage of the event my blood boiled and I was reminded of all the good the USA has to offer. I had lived around enough europeans to understand and see fault with their wealth distribution, public services and chronic dole abuse. I always explained that America has a working dole, america is about work, the military is a driving force behind the economy, and neighbors and churches took care of the poor before welfare. Americans were free to create, and free to make money. Today??? kids can not even open a cool aid stand. the govt has put it's nose into it's peoples life to the extent that it is smothering the flame that made America great. Liberals think about taking, conservitives think about making. IMO the only hope for America is for it to return to it's roots and let people make money with out the fear of being penalized for taking the risk. At this point in time a flat tax down to a 10k per yr income would go a long way to change an attitude of what is social justice and social injustice. I am a proud American and I can say that 10 yrs ago people may have hated and distrusted the States but in the last 2 yr it has become a topic of laughter more than respect and the latest action by S&P is only a suprise to the Americans living in America. thats my rant, Get rid of big government get rid of controls, get rid of liberal free loaders and OBAMA MUST GO!