Thai worker killed by leftover ammunition in Israeli orchard

[JimGant]

DCC has bee beaten to death on this forum, so I won't repeat what can easily by found by searching. And Siam TV was mentioned several years back as a culprit. And they're still at it....but in a different guise.

Siam TV owns the Sony and LG franchises at the Airport Mall -- a fact not readily apparent until you browse their paperwork. Yesterday I bought a computer at the Sony place -- and forgot to say "baht please" when I handed them my Visa credit card. The slip came back, and the first figure I saw was baht. Historically, this was the clue that DCC hadn't been used, as you saw a dollar figure (or whatever your country's currency is) prominently displayed instead of baht. However, now the dollar figure is at the bottom (where the notice "I accept DCC" used to be -- but is no longer). Anyway, when I saw dollars, the apologetic proprietor explained the "new machine" makes it very difficult to override DCC (why am I not surpised), and in fact the DCC charge (and its reversal) were on slips with Bangkok Bank headers -- and the new charge, in baht, was swiped on a different machine, and came out with a Kasikorn Bank header. Hmmmm.

Anyway, bottom line, the first (DCC) charge was $922.55. But the non-DCC charge -- when I later brought up my Visa account online -- was $891.67. So, as advertised, DCC is a complete screw job -- in this case to the tune of $31, or 3.5%.

I don't know what else Siam TV owns -- but they're not the only DCC culprits (Home Pro, for sure, is one other). Anyway, best to say "baht" when you hand over your plastic from farangland. You'll get a knowing nod from the salesgirl familiar with DCC (or a puzzled look if the store has yet to be recruited by the DCC crooks).

[mrclough]

Or just go to the bank, take your money out and pay in Baht. Much less trouble and not much room for error or confusion on anyone's part.

[Semper]

I always use cash, no problems with DCC.

[uptheos]

Or just go to the bank, take your money out and pay in Baht. Much less trouble and not much room for error or confusion on anyone's part.

Yep, agree with the above plus there's more opportunity for getting a bit knocked off the price.

[NancyL]

You do avoid the DCC problem when paying with cash, but I prefer to use my good-old American plastic for big ticket purchases. There have been several times when I filed a claim for charges on my U.S.-issued credit card and they've always issued a refund. (Of course, I supplied appropriate paperwork of efforts to work with the merchant to resolve the problem.) Refunds are difficult to get here in Thailand when you pay for something with cash.

[supaprik]

thanks for the heads up Jim, I noticed for the first time last week that Bumrungrad are also doing it and when it was reversed the amount an associate of mine paid was 234US, disgraceful...

Edited August 25, 2011 by supaprik

[LJW]

I know that Siam TV also charges you 2 or 3 percent for simply using a credit card. Are you talking about another 3.5 percent on top of that ?

[JimGant]

I know that Siam TV also charges you 2 or 3 percent for simply using a credit card. Are you talking about another 3.5 percent on top of that ?

The Sony franchise at the airport didn't add anything to the price for using a credit card. But for using DCC -- where the servicing bank, in this case Bangkok Bank, establishes the exchange rate (not the Visa/PLUS network), I would have paid 3.5% more due to the less-favorable FX rate.

[Semper]

Or just go to the bank, take your money out and pay in Baht. Much less trouble and not much room for error or confusion on anyone's part.

Yep, agree with the above plus there's more opportunity for getting a bit knocked off the price.

But then there are always people who like to flash their gold/platinum cards. Even the Thais has adapted to this phenomena.

[trainman34014]

I know that Siam TV also charges you 2 or 3 percent for simply using a credit card. Are you talking about another 3.5 percent on top of that ?

Never had this problem at Siam's main shop in town. No DCC and no extra percentage for use of card. Over the last three years I've used cards at the old and new shops and never had any problems at all.

[OriginalPoster]

You do avoid the DCC problem when paying with cash, but I prefer to use my good-old American plastic for big ticket purchases. There have been several times when I filed a claim for charges on my U.S.-issued credit card and they've always issued a refund. (Of course, I supplied appropriate paperwork of efforts to work with the merchant to resolve the problem.) Refunds are difficult to get here in Thailand when you pay for something with cash.

Do you mean that your credit card company will refund you the 3 to 4 % overcharge that typically occurs due to DCC? Never tried that.

BTW, it's not just fly-by-night operations that try to sneak the DCC thing by you. Both the Holiday Inn and Sheraton hotel chains do that as well. At the Sheraton they just smiled when I call them on it, ot the Holiday inn they told me that most of their American customers prefer to use DCC because it's easier.

[el jefe]

IT City automatically uses DCC too.

yes, using cash would eliminate the problem but I get 2% back from my bank on every credit card purchase. I charge everything as long as there is no added fee by the vendor.

[Loaded]

Am I missing something?

Businesses that use Thai currency as their primary currency because they are Thai, registered in Thailand, pay taxes in Thailand etc., convert foreign currency payments into baht using a recognized standard dynamic currency conversion. However, the rate may be lower than the rate the customer wanted. It's the bank benefiting from the low exchange rate and not the business. The business has no choice but to accept the terms, conditions and exchange rate of the bank.

I don't see the problem. Businesses charge for services whether the charge is added or 'absorbed', the customer still pays. Are people suggesting businesses shouldn't charge for services?

The 2 - 3% credit card charge is the charge the bank charges the business for the transaction. Again, businesses charge for services whether the charge is added or 'absorbed', the customer still pays. It's standard to 'absorb' the charge in the West but the customer still pays. Here, you are told you are paying. In my opinion this is a far more honest and ethical approach.

I don't understand why people 'living' here use a foreign credit card to purchase products and services priced in Thai currency and then moan when they don't get the exchange rate they wanted.

I have a Thai credit card so don't have this 'problem'.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Loaded

[uptheos]

I don't understand why people 'living' here use a foreign credit card to purchase products and services priced in Thai currency and then moan when they don't get the exchange rate they wanted.

I have a Thai credit card so don't have this 'problem'.

Good points - not everyone who lives (stays) here can get a Thai credit card, but for those that can it makes life easier.

[NancyL]

You do avoid the DCC problem when paying with cash, but I prefer to use my good-old American plastic for big ticket purchases. There have been several times when I filed a claim for charges on my U.S.-issued credit card and they've always issued a refund. (Of course, I supplied appropriate paperwork of efforts to work with the merchant to resolve the problem.) Refunds are difficult to get here in Thailand when you pay for something with cash.

Do you mean that your credit card company will refund you the 3 to 4 % overcharge that typically occurs due to DCC? Never tried that.

BTW, it's not just fly-by-night operations that try to sneak the DCC thing by you. Both the Holiday Inn and Sheraton hotel chains do that as well. At the Sheraton they just smiled when I call them on it, ot the Holiday inn they told me that most of their American customers prefer to use DCC because it's easier.

I've never asked the U.S. credit card company to refund the DCC overcharge the few times that we haven't been paying attention and have been charged in USD rather than THB. I don't think they'd do it, because it is a legitimate charge that was on the receipt that we sign, accepting the charge.

I've filed claims for when Nok Air cancelled their service to Chiang Rai, after accepting our reservations (and payment) on their website and filed a claim against CMU's Language Institute. In both cases, I had email exchanges with the vendors and it looked like they were either dragging their feet (Nok Air) or refusing to reply (CMU Lang. Instit) to my inquiries.

We don't have much problem with DCC because our credit card is issued by the credit union of a multi-national company with manufacturing facilities in Thailand. It has that company's name on the card, and I think many Thai people recognize the name. I think we'd have a bigger problem with DCC if our credit card had "U.S. Bank" or "Bank of America" on it.

And to address "Loaded" confusion -- people who live here and use foreign credit cards want to pay in Thai baht (just like you) because their financial institutions in the U.S. give them a better exchange rate than that given by the Thai banks who run the DCC schemes. Also many of us with foreign credit cards have a "cash back" scheme, where the foreign bank gives us a refund of 2 - 3% of our purchases (ours is a credit we receive once a year.) Plus, the foreign financial institutions are much more accomodating with claims their customers file for fradulent charges. In our situtaion with the CMULI, we got a refund. People who paid with a credit card from a Thai bank didn't receive refunds.

Those using foreign-issued credit cards always have the option of refusing to sign a receipt in foreign currency, asking that the charges be reversed and the credit card charged again, this time in Thai baht. The trick is to be vigilent and carefully read receipts before signing. The OP was merely alerting those of us using foreign credit cards to watch out, the DCC people have come up with a new way to try to get us to accept their "services" without realizing it.

[OriginalPoster]

Am I missing something?

Businesses that use Thai currency as their primary currency because they are Thai, registered in Thailand, pay taxes in Thailand etc., convert foreign currency payments into baht using a recognized standard dynamic currency conversion. However, the rate may be lower than the rate the customer wanted. It's the bank benefiting from the low exchange rate and not the business. The business has no choice but to accept the terms, conditions and exchange rate of the bank.

I don't see the problem. Businesses charge for services whether the charge is added or 'absorbed', the customer still pays. Are people suggesting businesses shouldn't charge for services?

The 2 - 3% credit card charge is the charge the bank charges the business for the transaction. Again, businesses charge for services whether the charge is added or 'absorbed', the customer still pays. It's standard to 'absorb' the charge in the West but the customer still pays. Here, you are told you are paying. In my opinion this is a far more honest and ethical approach.

I don't understand why people 'living' here use a foreign credit card to purchase products and services priced in Thai currency and then moan when they don't get the exchange rate they wanted.

I have a Thai credit card so don't have this 'problem'.

There are lots of reasons that someone might want to keep their money outside of Thailand and draw on it using Credit Cards and ATM cards. And using a foreign credit card doesn't cause a problem at all if you don't select the DCC option when paying, in fact using many such cards give you a better exchange rate than a consumer can get by any other means. If the merchant doesn't play the DCC game, foreign cards a very convenient and economical way to bring money into Thailand.

And DCC has nothing to do with the 2-3% that Visa charges merchants, rather it's an additional 3-4% that you wind up paying because the currency conversion rate being used at the point of sale is substantially worse than what Visa will give you. So why lose that extra 3-4% if you don't have to?

[ricklev]

Slimeballs!

I'm always particularly nauseated when hospitals do it since they know people are distracted by their illness.

[JimGant]

Am I missing something?

As said, this subject, primarily in the banking forum, has bee discussed in detail. Google on Dynamic Currency Conversion. Here's one take, from Flyerguide:

When you are paying by Visa or Mastercard, some merchants will offer to convert your transaction into your home currency ("'Dynamic Currency Conversion'"). If this offered, you should decline it, as an exorbitant exchange rate of 7% may be charged [2]. Always check your receipt, and if you see anything involving your home currency in a country that doesn't use that currency, ask the merchant to re-do the transaction in the local currency no fax payday loans. If the merchant insists that the conversion is automatic, it is worth arguing or reporting the incident to your credit card company. Visa "requires the merchant to disclose the fee and must provide the consumer with a choice" of getting the bill in the customer's home currency or the local currency.

Yes, merchants pay to accept your plastic ("interchange fee"). In large stores, the sales price builds-in this fee. Mom and Pop operations, maybe not -- that's why they'll add a charge to accept your plastic.

Businesses that use Thai currency as their primary currency because they are Thai, registered in Thailand, pay taxes in Thailand etc., convert foreign currency payments into baht using a recognized standard dynamic currency conversion.

Wrong. In the standard transaction, all's the merchant sees is the baht sales price. He hasn't the foggiest what that means in dollars, nor cares -- he'll be reimbursed in baht (less the interchange fee). The exchange rate used for this transaction is established by Visa (or MasterCard).

My purchase at Sony used the Visa conversion rate of 29.78. The credit card slip showing the dollars (and thus DCC) had in small print the exchange rate of 28.74. This is the rate established by the Thai servicing bank, in this case, Bangkok Bank. The "spread" between the Visa rate and BB rate is pure profit, to be shared between BB and Sony.

From the Visa website:

If you do not want to use DCC when making a purchase, then you have the right to refuse the offer and have your transaction billed in the merchant’s local currency, which will then use Visa’s conversion rate. If you did not agree to DCC, but see it on your bill, then you should ask your issuing bank to contest the charge.

As said, there was nothing on the credit card slip saying "I accept DCC." This is a new twist, to me anyway. But, according to Visa, above, it sounds like you could complain to your issuing bank -- especially if there's no signature agreeing to DCC. But, what a hassle. Just best to say "baht" when you hand over the plastic.

[changraider]

DCC is a comparatively new "service", its benefits are marketed as: the ability to pay in one's own currency when being unaware of the exchange rate; the ability to enter expenses more easily (i.e. business travellers); some issuing banks may not charge the foreign usage fee if the transaction is processed in the cardholder's home currency (but most do).

DCC is an international service, not a Thai-specific service. Retailers do get a small commission for DCC transactions, but bizarrely they can also end up making less profit on DCC transactions. DCC rates in Thailand are not necessarily set by Thai organisations, it depends on who supplies the DCC rates.

All c-c and d-c transactions will be more expensive if you use DCC. Some UK banks recommend that you never agree to DCC, and that seems like sensible advice unless you're on expenses with a huge expense claim to juggle in different currencies every month.

Personally I use a local bank, and some of the benefits offered here are way better than anything I've seen in 'the west', and I've been working in banking half my life, but that's a different thread.

[OriginalPoster]

My purchase at Sony used the Visa conversion rate of 29.78. The credit card slip showing the dollars (and thus DCC) had in small print the exchange rate of 28.74. This is the rate established by the Thai servicing bank, in this case, Bangkok Bank. The "spread" between the Visa rate and BB rate is pure profit, to be shared between BB and Sony.

That was the point that I found interesting in his post defending retailers who use DCC and chastising people who use foreign credit cards. Are you (or he) sure who it is that gets the extra 3-4%, the bank, retailer, or both? The main reason I was inclined to think that the retailers must be turning a profit on it is that the DCC rate is not only a lot worse than Visa's interbank rate, it is also a lot worse than the counter rate that Thai banks give individuals when exchanging US cash for Thai cash. But thinking that was only an assumption on my part, maybe it is the bank that is skimming the extra money and not the retailer.

[JimGant]

I have a Thai credit card so don't have this 'problem'.

But if the money that pays your Thai credit card bill comes from abroad, you have another instance of getting 'shortchanged,' as that money gets the TT rate, less the front end fee (SWIFT or ACH), and the 200-500 baht back-end fee.

With a credit card that doesn't charge fees (another subject discussed ad nauseam), you get the Visa exchange rate, higher by several satang over the TT rate, plus a 1 to 2% 'cash back' feature with some of these cards.

But, yes, you don't have to say "baht" when you hand over your card -- or have to wear a money belt.

[JimGant]

But thinking that was only an assumption on my part, maybe it is the bank that is skimming the extra money and not the retailer.

No, they're dividing it up. And the servicing bank sets the exchange rate, which, of course, is always lower than the interbank rate, otherwise no positive "spread" to divide....

Check out SCB's DCC rates:

http://www.scb.co.th/scb_api/index.jsp