Netanyahu says Israel doesn't have to apologize to Turkey

[up-country_sinclair]

Actually, it was just a weak-kneed cop out. But 'nuff said.

[Jingthing]

Actually, it was just a weak-kneed cop out. But 'nuff said.

I won't be losing any sleep over this.

[Steely Dan]

Erdogan really is a nasty corrosive little tick.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/09/turkey-detains-40-jews-at-istanbul-airport-forced-to-strip-passports-confiscated.html

Turkey Detains 40 Jews at Istanbul Airport, Forced to Strip, Passports Confiscated

Edited September 5, 2011 by Steely Dan

[Wavefloater]

I'm certainly not talking only about this highly questionable incident and Israel once again telling the world to go <deleted> itself because they feel they're above being accountable for their actions. These people have a growing list of heinous atrocities and an obvious disdain for anybody not Israeli.

I am by no means antisemitic and have never been terribly political, but I have undoubtedly become anti-Zionist.

Have a care, as Martin Luther King said, when people say they are anti-Zionist they are actually antisemitic. Leaving that aside for the moment we are discussing the shit storm surrounding 9 deaths two years ago when the so called arab spring (sic) has resulted in thousands of deaths yet until recently even Syria one of the worst offenders was attracting little or no attention, and so it has always been arabs can murder Christians, Jews or each other by the millions and it receives less attention than if someone in Israel forgets to flush the bog. To prove the politicized nonsense coming out of the U.N, the UNHRC has issued more motions condemning Israel than all other states put together, and that includes the likes of Iran or Saudi Arabia - In the light of this is it any wonder whatsoever that Israel tells such bodies to go and <deleted> themselves? I know I certainly would.

With all due respect to the memory of Dr. King, some of my Jewish friends do not agree and are actually opposed to the concept of Zionism, and more particularly to Israel and the damage it does to Jewish culture around the world.

[Steely Dan]

With all due respect to the memory of Dr. King, some of my Jewish friends do not agree and are actually opposed to the concept of Zionism, and more particularly to Israel and the damage it does to Jewish culture around the world.

I know I'm going to regret pursuing this but in order to oppose the 'concept of Zionism' as you put it shall we define what that actually means.

According to wiki "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland."

This is no different really from the right of self-determination of any other nation, or with 51 Muslim states are you (like them) opposed to a single Jewish state?

[Wavefloater]

With all due respect to the memory of Dr. King, some of my Jewish friends do not agree and are actually opposed to the concept of Zionism, and more particularly to Israel and the damage it does to Jewish culture around the world.

I know I'm going to regret pursuing this but in order to oppose the 'concept of Zionism' as you put it shall we define what that actually means.

According to wiki "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland."

This is no different really from the right of self-determination of any other nation, or with 51 Muslim states are you (like them) opposed to a single Jewish state?

First of all, (and hopefully not to create any animosity) I would never refer to Wiki as it is a place where anybody can say anything, but let's assume that the info Wikipedia has offered here is accurate. Some of my Jewish friends are actually opposed to the whole concept of Zionism in that it entitles those of the jewish faith to have a Jewish state. However most simply have expressed their displeasure about how Israel came to be -- in a violent way that was opposed by much of the world.

Bottom line for me is that I feel all religions are more sinister and harmful than those of those of religious faith would like to think they are. It's undeniable that many horrible wars, much suffering, suppression, and agony has been inflicted on innocent people all in the name of religion over the centuries. I am not interested in discussing whether Israel should exist because it's the type of discussion that will never end and people will never agree on. My original post expressed my dislike of how Israel goes about things, especially in their constant refusal to account for their actions or listen to the dozens of western leaders who continually ask them to stop encroaching on Palestinian territory by building illegal Israeli settlements. People suffered to help Israel come into existence, and when the leaders of those same countries that literally made Israel possible are shunned and not heeded at all by the Israelis, that bothers me. They have been condemned by most of the western world for not obeying the original boundaries laid out when Israel was formed or even showing any intention to stop encroaching on land that is not legally theirs. It's clearly telling the rest of world to go <deleted> itself, and I really can't understand how that can be defended. Saying "<deleted> off" to people, like Israel continually does, is not a nice way to be neighbourly or show gratitude to those who were key in establishing the place.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Wavefloater

[flying]

Nicely put Wavefloater

[Jingthing]

People suffered to help Israel come into existence, and when the leaders of those same countries that literally made Israel possible are shunned and not heeded at all by the Israelis, that bothers me.

I have no idea what you are talking about! Please explain yourself. That's not the early history of Israel I am aware of. The Palestine region was a British colony and the British tried to prevent Israel from becoming a Jewish state and even stopped ships full of holocaust victims from landing. So yes Jews were fighting British because the Zionist movement wanted the British colonist rulers to go away. Yes the UN voted to partition Palestine into two sections in 1947 (the British gave it up by then). Starting about 1948, the Jews established the Jewish state, and right away most of the Arab world attacked Israel. It is understandable why they did just as it is understandable why Israel fought them. At that time, the survival of the Jewish state was given very long odds by rational analysts (look at a map). So what countries do you think the Jews owe a big debt to for supporting them in the early days? France? Canada? Spain? I really don't get what you are saying. The world wasn't on the ground there fighting with the Jews to defend the new Israel. Please spell it out. Yes, I understand Israel owes gratitude and gives gratitude to good friends like the USA who have been there with aid throughout the decades, but that is not the same thing as what Wavefloater said.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

With all due respect to the memory of Dr. King, some of my Jewish friends do not agree and are actually opposed to the concept of Zionism, and more particularly to Israel and the damage it does to Jewish culture around the world.

It is not a secret that a lot of Jewish people are far to the left politically and support many causes that seem foolish to other people - that is what democracy is about. However, that does not mean that other Jewish people are to blame for their personal opinions on Israel or anything else.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

With all due respect to the memory of Dr. King, some of my Jewish friends do not agree and are actually opposed to the concept of Zionism, and more particularly to Israel and the damage it does to Jewish culture around the world.

It is not a secret that a lot of Jewish people are far to the left politically and support many causes that seem foolish to other people, but that is what democracy is about. However, that does not mean that other Jewish people are to blame for their personal opinions on Israel or anything else.

Polls have shown that over 90 percent of global Jews support the right of Israel to EXIST as a Jewish state. That is not in any way the same thing as most Jews supporting all Israel's policies. For example, I am sure the majority of American Jews OPPOSE the settlements in the west bank. In my view to support Jewish nationalism in the form of Israel's right to EXIST is the basic definition of Zionism. I also think by definition, and I think most left wing Jews would agree even, if you oppose Jewish self determination and nationalism (Zionism/existence of Israel) and you also DO NOT oppose the same kind of thing in other countries, such as the existence of over 50 Islamic states, that is not only anti-Zionism, it's strong evidence of antisemitism.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

People suffered to help Israel come into existence, and when the leaders of those same countries that literally made Israel possible are shunned and not heeded at all by the Israelis, that bothers me.

I have no idea what you are talking about! Please explain yourself. That's not the early history of Israel I am aware of.

Of course Jingthing. You have actually studied Israel's history instead of just making things up.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

An off-topic, inflammatory post has been removed as well as replies to it.

Continued off-topic posting is going to result in suspension of posting ability.

You have the right to your opinion, others may disagree. Disagree respectfully, please.

[Steely Dan]

First of all, (and hopefully not to create any animosity) I would never refer to Wiki as it is a place where anybody can say anything, but let's assume that the info Wikipedia has offered here is accurate. Some of my Jewish friends are actually opposed to the whole concept of Zionism in that it entitles those of the jewish faith to have a Jewish state. However most simply have expressed their displeasure about how Israel came to be -- in a violent way that was opposed by much of the world.

Bottom line for me is that I feel all religions are more sinister and harmful than those of those of religious faith would like to think they are. It's undeniable that many horrible wars, much suffering, suppression, and agony has been inflicted on innocent people all in the name of religion over the centuries. I am not interested in discussing whether Israel should exist because it's the type of discussion that will never end and people will never agree on. My original post expressed my dislike of how Israel goes about things, especially in their constant refusal to account for their actions or listen to the dozens of western leaders who continually ask them to stop encroaching on Palestinian territory by building illegal Israeli settlements. People suffered to help Israel come into existence, and when the leaders of those same countries that literally made Israel possible are shunned and not heeded at all by the Israelis, that bothers me. They have been condemned by most of the western world for not obeying the original boundaries laid out when Israel was formed or even showing any intention to stop encroaching on land that is not legally theirs. It's clearly telling the rest of world to go <deleted> itself, and I really can't understand how that can be defended. Saying "<deleted> off" to people, like Israel continually does, is not a nice way to be neighbourly or show gratitude to those who were key in establishing the place.

Ok, I'll answer in list format.

1) Israel came into being because the U.N voted them into being after they had previously been promised a homeland in the Balfour declaration.

2) Agreed religions cause trouble, always have. However Israel is governed in a secular manner and the religion problem comes from Islam which sees it as an affront for Muslims to be ruled by non-Muslims, especially Jews who are cursed countless times in Islamic scripture - Erdogan makes no secret of his religious piety and has sadly gone a long way towards dismantling Turkey as a secular state and is now explicitly agitating for a Palestinian state and it seems is actively trying to cause trouble for Israel.

3)The Palestinians are their own worst enemies, they lost land in repeated wars of aggression and further encroachment is an inevitable consequence of Israel trying to defend it's population from yet more agression, hence walls round settlements. Incidentally after 1967 resolution 242 called for Israel to stop further building on disputed land but also called on the Palestinians to cease violent acts, the Palestinians to this day have never stopped so 242 can't apply just to Israel alone.

4) The right of return nonsense fails to take into account the rights of the estimated 1 million Jews kicked out of Arab lands since 1948, they lost a land area twice the size of that lost by the Palestinians, yet no Arab Country would dream of compensating them.

5) As for Israel's attitude to the U.N, well that's wholly understandable in the light of the OIC block vote and their oil money used to buy influence particularly in Europe. It is also hypocritical as other Countries have exactly the same attitude to the U.N and do as they please for example Turkey invading Cyprus or bombing the hell out of the Kurds in Iraq as well as within Turkey itself.

[Pakboong]

I find the idea of world leaders issuing apologies as a bit childish and not very statesman like. Imagine if Obama had to issue an apology every time one of the US drones kills an innocent noncombatant. It happens every day somewhere.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[Scott]

And another off-topic post has been deleted.

It appears that some posters can't be given much leeway in a discussion and still keep it civil. The topic will be moderated closely.

Off topic posts will be removed. The topic is about the situation between Israel and Turkey.