Thai Govt Plans Upgrade For Buses And Trains

[webfact]

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW

Govt plans upgrade for buses and trains

By SASITHORN ONGDEE

THE NATION

Deputy Transport Minister Chatt Kuldiloke last week vowed to upgrade the country's railway network as his first priority, besides the procurement of 4,000 NGV buses.

"I think the railroads must be changed substantially as they do not meet the [international] standard," he said.

In an interview with The Nation, Chatt conceded that he is close to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

He said he was repeatedly urged to oversee railway improvement after having consulted with Thaksin upon assuming his ministerial post.

The network was built during the reign of King Rama IV, or more than 120 years ago. Now, Thailand uses a one-metre gauge while other countries use the standard gauge with a track width of 1.435 metres.

Since the railway improve-ment plan has already been approved with a budget of Bt176 billion, it should be going ahead, he said.

The plan mainly involves the procurement of new locomotives, carriages, bogies and cross points as well as some sections of double-track railways.

The State Railway of Thailand has reportedly signed preliminary agreements with many suppliers.

However, Bt30 billion -Bt40 billion could be saved if some parts of the project are revised, he said with less confidence.

"If we can save some of the budget, we can spend more instead on developing the high-speed train project, which |needs high construction costs," he said.

For the bullet train project, the Bangkok-Nakhon Ratchasima section will come first, out of the four routes planned by the previous government in the first stage. The tracks would be extended to Khon Kaen and Nong Khai in the next stages.

"This route can be in place in two or three years," he said.

The high-speed railway is not only for mass transit but also cargo shipments. The speed of the train should be not more than 300 kilometres per hour in a bid to reduce construction costs. The appropriate speed should be 200kph.

The framework for the memorandum of agreement for the Sino-Thai high-speed train project, linking Nong Khai to South China via Laos, as initiated by the previous government, could continue if everything is clear, he said, while declining to give more details.

The pending 4,000-NGV-bus project for Greater Bangkok was also a priority task. Authorities are now revising the plan and it would be completed over the next few weeks when the new directors of the Bangkok Mass Transit Authority (BMTA) are settled in after September 20. Then, the specifics of the number of new buses required, procurement methods and budget could be revealed.

Currently, 2,801 buses are providing commuter services in Greater Bangkok and most of them are 14-18 years old.

At least 3,500 new buses are needed to replace the old ones. But, the decision on the procurement method has not been made yet. The choices are leasing, purchasing or renting.

Many suppliers have also rushed to offer their technologies and prices varying from Bt2 million-Bt4 billion per vehicle.

Chatt said he personally prefers the leasing method as this could bring down the budget. However, there should be a mix of new buses procured by renting, leasing and purchasing.

The revised plan will have to follow the bus routing plan made by the Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning, which is being revised with possibly both grid and circle patterns in a bid to serve the public more conveniently.

"At least, you should transfer only once to get to your destination," he said.

The BMTA would also bring the electronic ticketing system to the public bus fleet. No one would be hired to replace the 550 staff who are responsible for fare collections on the buses that will retire this year and the 550 staff on buses retiring next year.

"It's expected that passengers will enjoy the new buses by the end of this year," he added.

-- The Nation 2011-09-12

[mca]

The network was built during the reign of King Rama IV, or more than 120 years ago.

As were the trains.....

[Buchholz]

In an interview with The Nation, Chatt conceded that he is close to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

He said he was repeatedly urged to oversee railway improvement after having consulted with Thaksin upon assuming his ministerial post.

Cambodia's Economic Adviser and now Thailand's Rail Consultant... he does it all.

As for Chatt, yes, he's close to Thaksin.

So close, in fact, that when Thaksin says "Jump":

Thaksin tells Pheu Thai ministers to resign Party-list MPs

Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has told Pheu Thai ministers to vacate their seats of part-list MPs to allow those lower on the ranks to become members of the House, a minister confirmed Thursday.

Chatt says, "How high?" :

Pheu Thai MP Chat Kuldilok (above), who is the Deputy Transport Minister in the Yingluck Cabinet has resigned from his Party-list MP status today.

He is being replaced by the next one down on the Party-list, at number 62, it's actor-turned-politician Danuporn Punnakant (below far left in one of his movie posters).

Chat resigns as Party-list MP

Deputy Transport Minister Chatt Kuldiloke Tuesday resigned his legislative position as a Party-list MP.

Chat said his resignation, which would become effective this Thursday, would pave the way for the runner-up candidate to fill the seat.

Chat is the first Pheu Thai Party-list MP to resign his legislative position.

Danuporn Punnakanta will be next in line to be a Party-list MP.

-- The Nation 2011-08-23

Edited September 12, 2011 by Buchholz

[marquess]

Electronic ticketing systems make buses slower, and Bangkok buses are already slow enough (speeding drivers aside). Conductors on buses ensure a more user friendly environment, imagine having to to queue here just to pay to get on an already over-crowded bus. If they are talking about 120 years ago surely that is in the time of Rama V 1868-1910.

[nong38]

I would have thought the first thing the givt should do is to change the railway guage to standard in preparation for the future, a third rail at along the current routes should do the trick. Yes there would have to be other changes to make it "fit" but this really does have to be the starting point, whoever is talking talk is easy and cheap, action is required. The time scale of the high speed proposal seems optimistic, but, lets see a start from developing to developed.

[zakk9]

"This route can be in place in two or three years," he said.

He clearly must mean "in place on the drawing board".

Then, the negotiations about the amount of "tea money" can start

[scorecard]

I would have thought the first thing the givt should do is to change the railway guage to standard in preparation for the future, a third rail at along the current routes should do the trick. Yes there would have to be other changes to make it "fit" but this really does have to be the starting point, whoever is talking talk is easy and cheap, action is required. The time scale of the high speed proposal seems optimistic, but, lets see a start from developing to developed.

Is 1.435 metres really the world standard? Is it the standard for the shinkarnzen trains in Japan and all the very fast trains in Europe and China?

[hammered]

Sounds like the BJT bus plan. Maybe the PTP will manage to pull it off. The Dems stymied BJT ostensibly for corruption but many say the Dems didnt want BJT impinging on their BKK turf. PTP are only a few thousand votes behind the Dems in over half the Dem BKK seats. If PTP pulls new buses off it will be rewarded with votes I guess.

[TheWalkingMan]

Is 1.435 metres really the world standard? Is it the standard for the shinkarnzen trains in Japan and all the very fast trains in Europe and China?

Good question so I did a google search, "The Shinkansen uses 1,435 mm standard gauge in contrast to the 1,067 mm narrow gauge of older lines." Wiki Link

TheWalkingMan

[elgato]

Whatever happened to the proposed (dreamed of) line from Den Chai to Chiang Rai?

[ovenman]

Whatever happened to the proposed (dreamed of) line from Den Chai to Chiang Rai?

I suppose that the Chinese government didn't cut the SRT a check to build that project.

[SuperZozo]

I would have thought the first thing the givt should do is to change the railway guage to standard in preparation for the future, a third rail at along the current routes should do the trick. Yes there would have to be other changes to make it "fit" but this really does have to be the starting point, whoever is talking talk is easy and cheap, action is required. The time scale of the high speed proposal seems optimistic, but, lets see a start from developing to developed.

Is 1.435 metres really the world standard? Is it the standard for the shinkarnzen trains in Japan and all the very fast trains in Europe and China?

The French TGV is also a 1.435 meters gauge. (http://www.railway-t...ects/frenchtgv/)

[nong38]

I would have thought the first thing the givt should do is to change the railway guage to standard in preparation for the future, a third rail at along the current routes should do the trick. Yes there would have to be other changes to make it "fit" but this really does have to be the starting point, whoever is talking talk is easy and cheap, action is required. The time scale of the high speed proposal seems optimistic, but, lets see a start from developing to developed.

Is 1.435 metres really the world standard? Is it the standard for the shinkarnzen trains in Japan and all the very fast trains in Europe and China?

It is the standard guage for Europe and I believe China also, Vietnam, most of Aus and USA and Canada, The standard guage is the one originally used in the UK at 4 feet 8 1/2 inches so the figure quoted is the metric equivalent. As the the proposed high speed line from China to Singapore was stated to be of standard guage ( metre guage would not allow high speeds ) I think we could safely assume that China has built its high speed service on standard guage.

[nong38]

Whatever happened to the proposed (dreamed of) line from Den Chai to Chiang Rai?

I suppose that the Chinese government didn't cut the SRT a check to build that project.

As a part of an integrated rail plan, it should be built, the problem I think is that Chiang Rai has a population just about 200,000 and little tourist trade, like it or not. If it had larger population it would be top of the pile, they are the likely excuses for doing other things first. sadly

[Ricardo]

Whatever happened to the proposed (dreamed of) line from Den Chai to Chiang Rai?

It was promised yet-again pre-election, and I saw a couple of very nice posters up in the 'Rai, which apparently said something like "thanks for making the dream happen", but now that the election is past it will probably go for further study again ...

[jimbeam1]

Yippee I'm in the money. There is going to be a nice little earner here Rodders. this time next year.

I wonder if the upgrade in track will be suitable for the new high speed train that China want's for Thailand?

jb1

[tw25rw]

It is the standard guage for Europe and I believe China also, Vietnam, most of Aus and USA and Canada, The standard guage is the one originally used in the UK at 4 feet 8 1/2 inches so the figure quoted is the metric equivalent. As the the proposed high speed line from China to Singapore was stated to be of standard guage ( metre guage would not allow high speeds ) I think we could safely assume that China has built its high speed service on standard guage.

I have read that it's origins go back to Roman times and is the approximate width of 2 horses walking side by side.

[Crossy]

Electronic ticketing systems make buses slower...

True if combined with the concept of one-man operation which is cheaper on manpower but inherently slow. A clippie with an electronic ticket issuing machine should be as fast as the current rip-off-the-roll job and significantly more secure against fraud.

I would have thought the first thing the givt should do is to change the railway guage to standard in preparation for the future, a third rail at along the current routes should do the trick.

Changing a country to standard gauge is a massive investment requiring rolling stock to be replaced or re-gauged as well as all the track to be lifted and replaced, with the current state of SRT finances it's just a non-starter.

A 'simple' addition of a 3rd rail is equally fraught, the track must be lifted and replacement sleepers (ties) that can accommodate the third rail installed, just consider the complexity of turnouts and crossings and that's without beginning to think about the implications for the track-circuits or the revised clearances on platforms and bridges.

New standard gauge routes or standard gauge additions to existing high traffic routes are by far the least costly option.

[apetley]

Wasn't it this new govt that recently announced the high speed rail network will not connect internationally? Now we are told that it may go ahead after all. Two changes of plan in less than a month is hardly confidence inspiring.

[tw25rw]

If they have electronic ticketing, it has to be part of a shared system with the urban rail networks and be of the same ticketless kind as Oyster (UK)/Octopus (HK)..

And they need double decker buses and trains.

[zzaa09]

Electronic ticketing systems make buses slower, and Bangkok buses are already slow enough (speeding drivers aside). Conductors on buses ensure a more user friendly environment, imagine having to to queue here just to pay to get on an already over-crowded bus. If they are talking about 120 years ago surely that is in the time of Rama V 1868-1910.

I say bring back the electric trams and commuter trains [bKK metro] of this romantic era. They certainly would be able to compete nicely with the modern petrol-driven busing systems....

Edited September 12, 2011 by zzaa09

[nong38]

It is the standard guage for Europe and I believe China also, Vietnam, most of Aus and USA and Canada, The standard guage is the one originally used in the UK at 4 feet 8 1/2 inches so the figure quoted is the metric equivalent. As the the proposed high speed line from China to Singapore was stated to be of standard guage ( metre guage would not allow high speeds ) I think we could safely assume that China has built its high speed service on standard guage.

I have read that it's origins go back to Roman times and is the approximate width of 2 horses walking side by side.

May very well be right but the first railway tracks built to what is now called standard guage ( there were several in the UK until they were consolidated )was run in were in the UK. Romans were good at roads with few bends

[nong38]

Electronic ticketing systems make buses slower...

True if combined with the concept of one-man operation which is cheaper on manpower but inherently slow. A clippie with an electronic ticket issuing machine should be as fast as the current rip-off-the-roll job and significantly more secure against fraud.

I would have thought the first thing the givt should do is to change the railway guage to standard in preparation for the future, a third rail at along the current routes should do the trick.

Changing a country to standard gauge is a massive investment requiring rolling stock to be replaced or re-gauged as well as all the track to be lifted and replaced, with the current state of SRT finances it's just a non-starter.

A 'simple' addition of a 3rd rail is equally fraught, the track must be lifted and replacement sleepers (ties) that can accommodate the third rail installed, just consider the complexity of turnouts and crossings and that's without beginning to think about the implications for the track-circuits or the revised clearances on platforms and bridges.

New standard gauge routes or standard gauge additions to existing high traffic routes are by far the least costly option.

I totally agree with you, but this Thailand, that rail does look good and wont cost much, thats what the winning contractor told us when we handed over the money, by the way where is he?

[Bagwan]

I should think that it would be safe to assume that the 1 metre gauge was chosen for Thailand so as to marry up to the system built from Singapore to the Thai border. By the use of a narrower gauge than the standard gauge, aka Stephenson gauge, it is possible to build tracks with a lesser radius on bends. This is particularly important in hilly country.

Any suggestion that goods traffic can be carried at the high speeds mentioned is ludicrous as anybody who knows anything about driving trains will tell you.

[rametindallas]

"In an interview with The Nation, Chatt conceded that he is close to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

He said he was repeatedly urged to oversee railway improvement after having consulted with Thaksin upon assuming his ministerial post."

Thiland should just get rid of the law that says banned politicians must stay out of politics as this government is making a mockery of that law. Shouldn't Mr. Chtt be consulting Ms. Yingluck? It is so true, 'Thaksin thinks, Puea Thai act'. There is not even the slightest attempt to hide the fact that Dr. Thaksin is the defacto P.M. BTW 'railway improvement' doesn't necessarily mean go from the crap railway system they have now straight to bullet trains.

As for the idea of bullet trains carrying freight, is there a bullet freight train anywhere already in use? The Chinese bullet train is still out of use and several newspapers have been taken over by the propaganda ministry for reporting too much on the poor roadbeds, signalling, etc.

How about a train system that doesn't derail regularly or break down? How about building a standard guage, double track, 80 kph system that is safe and dependable? Has the minister even been on the current trains? Walk before you run. This looks to me like and expensive boondogle similar to Suvannaphumbi Airport.

If this gets built, a lot of Thais will be killed at crossings and trains derailed by buffalo.

[rametindallas]

"This route can be in place in two or three years," he said.

He clearly must mean "in place on the drawing board".

Then, the negotiations about the amount of "tea money" can start

Think of all the possible routes and land aquisition negotiations. I think it doesn't matter to Dr. Thaksin if this thing ever gets built because they can make a fortune from land transfers. This enterprise may surpass the BTS, MRT, and Swampy in scope and graft potential.

[thaicbr]

If they have electronic ticketing, it has to be part of a shared system with the urban rail networks and be of the same ticketless kind as Oyster (UK)/Octopus (HK)..

And they need double decker buses and trains.

Double decker buses the way these lot drive....are you mad? Don't forget how much they overload the single deckers... the doubles are going to be just as bad... worse with all that weight at the top

[tw25rw]

If they have electronic ticketing, it has to be part of a shared system with the urban rail networks and be of the same ticketless kind as Oyster (UK)/Octopus (HK)..

And they need double decker buses and trains.

Double decker buses the way these lot drive....are you mad? Don't forget how much they overload the single deckers... the doubles are going to be just as bad... worse with all that weight at the top

Thy are very bottom heavy and hard to roll. Plus they would rarely go fast enough to tip over.

[ginjag]

If they have electronic ticketing, it has to be part of a shared system with the urban rail networks and be of the same ticketless kind as Oyster (UK)/Octopus (HK)..

And they need double decker buses and trains.

Double decker buses the way these lot drive....are you mad? Don't forget how much they overload the single deckers... the doubles are going to be just as bad... worse with all that weight at the top

Thy are very bottom heavy and hard to roll. Plus they would rarely go fast enough to tip over.

Can you imagine the confusion by adding TRAM lines to th BKK roads, who would give way ????

wouldn't it be lovely electric clean trams -tourist attraction- less polution- yes the new style with 2 carriages -a smile and Miracle and orchid painted on the side.

[tw25rw]

Can you imagine the confusion by adding TRAM lines to th BKK roads, who would give way ????

wouldn't it be lovely electric clean trams -tourist attraction- less polution- yes the new style with 2 carriages -a smile and Miracle and orchid painted on the side.

There used to be trams decades ago..

They are going with express bus routes instead. There is definitely room for a light rail system with all the disused or underused rail lines around.