Are Thais Taught Anything About The World Outside Of Thailand

[Richard4849]

Do yourself a favor and look up "self-made", which is what we're talking about.

We're talking about people who came from nothing and ended up rich by being smart and ambitious.

The people you are mentioning from that Forbes list are the very same people mentioned in that book. The Thaibev group, CP, etc.. are all talked about. Anyways, this isn't worth arguing about when there's a book talking about this very subject full of actual facts and economic data to back it up. I'm not going to C&P entire sections from it to prove a point.

You can plug your ears up and keep talking about how things are egalitarian and meritocratic here when it's the furthest thing from the truth.

No one (at least not me), claimed any such thing. You're making things up.

My only contention were that there are LOTS of examples of "self-made" baht billionaires who did not come from lofty hi-so backgrounds.

I have not read the book you are referring to, but I have read "Sons of the Yellow Emperor" -- so I do know something about the Chinese diaspora.

If for some reason you want to discount the example of Charoen as "self-made" -- then fine. We still have Tan, Chalerm, Vikrom and any number of others.

Just stop putting words in other people's mouths and stay on topic (please).

[StreetCowboy]

...Just stop putting words in other people's mouths and stay on topic (please).

Pots and kettles.

Do Thai people learn about English idiom in their classes?

SC

[Richard4849]

...Just stop putting words in other people's mouths and stay on topic (please).

Pots and kettles.

Do Thai people learn about English idiom in their classes?

SC

They're taught it; whether or not they remember it or not is another thing. Your point?

[StreetCowboy]

...Just stop putting words in other people's mouths and stay on topic (please).

Pots and kettles.

Do Thai people learn about English idiom in their classes?

SC

They're taught it; whether or not they remember it or not is another thing. Your point?

Its not on topic to criticise others for straying. We should make a pretence of relating our posts back to the topic in question, as a minimum for the sake of courtesy to other forum members who might have been attracted by the topic title.

I understand that consideration of the opinions and face of others is something that Thais learn at school as well as in the home. What we sometimes forget, being educated in the West to follow individualistic heroes, is that people in the West also care about face, and can be offended when they lose face. We teach that this is not important, as we think it should not be, but sadly it is. For us, face is a 'soft skills' issue and we tend to treat these less formally. In Thailand, inquisitiveness and understanding are treated with less priority, if I am to understand the gist of this thread correctly.

SC

[wintermute]

Is this self congratulatory "look how dumb the locals are" thread still running??

No one is saying that Thai people are inherently stupid but that there is certainly a culture that stifles creative thought and progress which includes fields like political science, science, and even medicine. With just the way the law is structured and applied shows serious issues with the way the social contract and legal philosophy is being interpreted by a large majority of people. There's a significant lack of education which impedes all tiers of society. Just look at some of the suggestions by the science ministry on how to stop flooding as an example of this group think.

Yes, we all know how many robotic mop championships and Irish literary championships little 15 year old wealthy Thai kids can win but let's see how that translates into real world application.

Where is Thailand's Samsung or Apple? Where are the real astrophysicists? The thinkers..the Carl Sagans, the Oppenheimers? The Feynmans..? Nobel prize winners?

*crickets chirp*

Edited October 8, 2011 by wintermute

[Richard4849]

Is this self congratulatory "look how dumb the locals are" thread still running??

No one is saying that Thai people are inherently stupid but that there is certainly a culture that stifles creative thought and progress which includes fields like political science, science, and even medicine. With just the way the law is structured and applied shows serious issues with the way the social contract and legal philosophy is being interpreted by a large majority of people. There's a significant lack of education which impedes all tiers of society. Just look at some of the suggestions by the science ministry on how to stop flooding as an example of this group think.

Yes, we all know how many robotic mop championships and Irish literary championships little 15 year old wealthy Thai kids can win but let's see how that translates into real world application.

Where is Thailand's Samsung or Apple? Where are the real astrophysicists? The thinkers..the Carl Sagans, the Oppenheimers? The Feynmans..? Nobel prize winners?

*crickets chirp*

If you're looking for a Samsung or Apple, you won't find it in Thailand. Thailand is still a developing country. I can't recall a huge technological or creative stride coming out of a country that was not yet developed, but I'm sure someone will be able to point to one.

[wintermute]

If you're looking for a Samsung or Apple, you won't find it in Thailand. Thailand is still a developing country. I can't recall a huge technological or creative stride coming out of a country that was not yet developed, but I'm sure someone will be able to point to one.

The USSR produced lots of innovation (especially in rocket science and astrophysics) despite being an economy and population on the fringes during most of its existence. It has everything to do with culture and its effects on education.

[Richard4849]

If you're looking for a Samsung or Apple, you won't find it in Thailand. Thailand is still a developing country. I can't recall a huge technological or creative stride coming out of a country that was not yet developed, but I'm sure someone will be able to point to one.

The USSR produced lots of innovation (especially in rocket science and astrophysics) despite being an economy and population on the fringes during most of its existence. It has everything to do with culture and its effects on education.

Russia was always a developed country, regardless of how much the communist system bankrupted the economy. Completely different situation.

[wintermute]

If you're looking for a Samsung or Apple, you won't find it in Thailand. Thailand is still a developing country. I can't recall a huge technological or creative stride coming out of a country that was not yet developed, but I'm sure someone will be able to point to one.

The USSR produced lots of innovation (especially in rocket science and astrophysics) despite being an economy and population on the fringes during most of its existence. It has everything to do with culture and its effects on education.

Russia was always a developed country, regardless of how much the communist system bankrupted the economy. Completely different situation.

No it was not. Starvation, pogroms, and a lot of other social issues cropped up during that time. What they had was a powerhouse educational system in sciences that went far because it was largely left unimpeded by social and cultural dogma. The scientists were encouraged and brought up to excel.

In Thailand excellence is crushed and mediocrity is held as the standard. Then you have a system that's so corrupt that even when individuals are allowed to get to a point where they have talent they are pushed down by venal corrupt elites who jealously guard their pieces of the pie.

Edited October 8, 2011 by wintermute

[Richard4849]

OK, OK. Russia blah blah blah.

Their education system was in place long before the Bolshevik Revolution and continued through all those years of pogroms, etc.

When it comes to great technological and creative leaps, you are not going to find many coming out of countries that are at Thailand's stage of development or below.

This should not come as a surprise, surely?

[wintermute]

OK, OK. Russia blah blah blah.

Their education system was in place long before the Bolshevik Revolution and continued through all those years of pogroms, etc.

Nope, it was put in place largely during Stalin's Russia for the military/space race. What that proves is that even when a country is destitute and in poor social shape under extreme stress that it can produce great minds if given the right educational environment. Communism was terrible but the leaders there did understand not to interfere with the productive education of the talented and hard science.

When it comes to great technological and creative leaps, you are not going to find many coming out of countries that are at Thailand's stage of development or below.

This should not come as a surprise, surely?

South Korea pulled itself from developing to developed in 30 years through creative and great technological leaps. Read about the huge government investment into science and machinery and related education back in the 70's.

I can also name 10 other countries that made similar leaps.

You're making a chicken or the egg type of circular argument. There's a point where countries go from developing to developed and it's not based on time but education, investment in domestic science, and creating an environment where enterprise can compete.

Edited October 8, 2011 by wintermute

[ludditeman]

Russia was always a developed country, regardless of how much the communist system bankrupted the economy. Completely different situation.

What a silly thing to say.

Stalin dragged Russia from an basic agricultural society into an advanced industrial society in 1 generation.

An amazing feat by anyones standards

One wonders about the western education system that fails to teach basic history.

Edited October 9, 2011 by ludditeman

[samran]

Is this self congratulatory "look how dumb the locals are" thread still running??

No one is saying that Thai people are inherently stupid but that there is certainly a culture that stifles creative thought and progress which includes fields like political science, science, and even medicine. With just the way the law is structured and applied shows serious issues with the way the social contract and legal philosophy is being interpreted by a large majority of people. There's a significant lack of education which impedes all tiers of society. Just look at some of the suggestions by the science ministry on how to stop flooding as an example of this group think.

Yes, we all know how many robotic mop championships and Irish literary championships little 15 year old wealthy Thai kids can win but let's see how that translates into real world application.

Where is Thailand's Samsung or Apple? Where are the real astrophysicists? The thinkers..the Carl Sagans, the Oppenheimers? The Feynmans..? Nobel prize winners?

*crickets chirp*

You had a reasonably good post till the bit where you asked about the Samsung's and the Apple's and the Sagan's etc.

It ignores a couple of things:

- the stand out obvious companies such as Banpu, PTT, CP Group etc. Yes they've probably benefited from government preference, but what large company anywhere in the world doesn't? This world is full of rent seekers. Of course they aren't an Apple etc, but neither are they insubstantial companies, and the case of your Banpu's of the world, have come from very little. Heck, even Gates came from a well off background.

- More broadly - Thailand is the 'detroit' of SE Asia, and via the oil and gas endowments, not too badly off in being one of the leaders in this area's from a SE Asia perspective.

- As for the 'great men' and 'Thinkers', you have a point. But so what? Your Lincoln's, Roosevelt's, Churchill's, Mandella's come along so infrequently, and usually shaped from dire circumstances, that you take them from where you get them, and celebrate them globally. As for the 'Thinkers', dunno myself, as I don't concentrate on that. But I suspect they are rare as hen's teeth as well - wherever you are in the world.

- As for Thailand not having a 'Samsung'. I understand the intuitive attraction to that, but it ignores the fact that for a country Thailand's size and stage of development, it makes no economic sense to even try to have one of them here. It would require resources devoted to it (either public or private) which probably could be better spent elsewhere. Arguably, the auto industry policy here was a moment of enlightened thinking and we have a positive result from that, but trying to do that too often (ie picking winners) often leads to more dud's than winners.

There is a saying in public policy circles where you can say a country is just 'muddling through'. Thailand in some cases fits this description, but I'd argue there are more than a few decent flashes of brilliance in there.

ed: and for all the great's of the past you see in the US and other places, hasn't stopped them getting them into one almighty sh!t of a pickle. For me it just means that there having one is no independent predictor of the other...

Edited October 9, 2011 by samran

[Richard4849]

Russia was always a developed country, regardless of how much the communist system bankrupted the economy. Completely different situation.

What a silly thing to say.

Stalin dragged Russia from an basic agricultural society into an advanced industrial society in 1 generation.

An amazing feat by anyones standards

One wonders about the western education system that fails to teach basic history.

Russia was a center for the arts, education, and culture long before Stalin arrived.

[ludditeman]

The communist system didn't bankrupt Russia, that was due to a 60 year war with America.

If America hadn't tried to suppress communism, who knows what power Russia would have today.

[samran]

The communist system didn't bankrupt Russia, that was due to a 60 year war with America.

If America hadn't tried to suppress communism, who knows what power Russia would have today.

probably still bankrupt.

[Berkshire]

ed: and for all the great's of the past you see in the US and other places, hasn't stopped them getting them into one almighty sh!t of a pickle. For me it just means that there having one is no independent predictor of the other...

That really is the whole point of it, isn't it? All these farangs talking about how Thailand should be more like the west keep leaving out the most painfully obvious fact: western civilization is going down the shitter. The "western model" is so incredibly flawed in so many different ways that if Thailand were to consciously try to do the opposite of what farang governments do, they'd probably be better off in the long run. Yes, a tad of an exaggeration, but not that much off.

[Richard4849]

True. Thailand is in a much stronger financial position right now than many of the countries we call home are.

[carmine]

Is this self congratulatory "look how dumb the locals are" thread still running??

No one is saying that Thai people are inherently stupid but that there is certainly a culture that stifles creative thought and progress which includes fields like political science, science, and even medicine. With just the way the law is structured and applied shows serious issues with the way the social contract and legal philosophy is being interpreted by a large majority of people. There's a significant lack of education which impedes all tiers of society. Just look at some of the suggestions by the science ministry on how to stop flooding as an example of this group think.

Yes, we all know how many robotic mop championships and Irish literary championships little 15 year old wealthy Thai kids can win but let's see how that translates into real world application.

Where is Thailand's Samsung or Apple? Where are the real astrophysicists? The thinkers..the Carl Sagans, the Oppenheimers? The Feynmans..? Nobel prize winners?

*crickets chirp*

This is actually quite a good post.

[Richard4849]

Is this self congratulatory "look how dumb the locals are" thread still running??

No one is saying that Thai people are inherently stupid but that there is certainly a culture that stifles creative thought and progress which includes fields like political science, science, and even medicine. With just the way the law is structured and applied shows serious issues with the way the social contract and legal philosophy is being interpreted by a large majority of people. There's a significant lack of education which impedes all tiers of society. Just look at some of the suggestions by the science ministry on how to stop flooding as an example of this group think.

Yes, we all know how many robotic mop championships and Irish literary championships little 15 year old wealthy Thai kids can win but let's see how that translates into real world application.

Where is Thailand's Samsung or Apple? Where are the real astrophysicists? The thinkers..the Carl Sagans, the Oppenheimers? The Feynmans..? Nobel prize winners?

*crickets chirp*

This is actually quite a good post.

It's true, but a bit obvious.

When you're talking about the kinds of people this poster is, there are few that come from anywhere but the US, Western Europe, Australia, and maybe Japan and Israel.

Much talk has been made of Singapore. Yet even Singapore hasn't produced a Carl Sagan, Oppenheimer, Feynman, Nobel prize winner, or astrophysicist of note either. At least none that I can name. South Korea hasn't produced a Nobel prize winner either (except for a Peace prize for Kim Dae-jung in 2000).

[wintermute]

It's true, but a bit obvious.

When you're talking about the kinds of people this poster is, there are few that come from anywhere but the US, Western Europe, Australia, and maybe Japan and Israel.

Much talk has been made of Singapore. Yet even Singapore hasn't produced a Carl Sagan, Oppenheimer, Feynman, Nobel prize winner, or astrophysicist of note either. At least none that I can name. South Korea hasn't produced a Nobel prize winner either (except for a Peace prize for Kim Dae-jung in 2000).

I'm talking about brilliant minds in general, not just nobel prize winners. Innovators, businessmen, scientists, etc.. who contribute to the country's GDP and have produced achievements that are internationally recognized as genuine efforts.

I admit the comparison with Singapore is flawed because Singapore is involved in specialized commerce with their lead financial position in SE Asia. Plus they are a tiny country. However, part of their ingenuity is in investment banking. The Singaporean government is one of the top investors in the world. The country has very low corruption and a strong middle class.

It's fair to compare Thailand to the asian tigers like South Korea and Taiwan though. Out of those two countries Korea is the most similar to Thailand. Prior to the 1970's Korea's GDP was probably similar to Thailand's if not lower in some respects. It has a population of 40-50 million comparable to Thailand's 50-60 million. Both countries have a strict traditionalist culture governed by social hierarchies and culture based religion. Both were heavily agrarian societies post-ww2. Both countries were also involved in the U.S. cold war in various ways as well.

The main difference here is that South Korea invested heavily in science and industry. The government completely overhauled the education system and instituted widespread reforms. These reforms emphasized developing competitive industries and reducing government corruption so that the democratic process could be eventually instituted. The largest construction companies in the world are S. Korean in origin. Their innovation is largely in heavy industrial machinery (A Korean company built the Petronas Towers and other large buildings in the world) and micro innovations in electronics which led to world leading semiconductor technology and microchips which makes Samsung one of the leading global businesses. Even Iphones were using Samsung chips.

All these measures succeeded wildly because they didn't make any excuses about making "Korean government for Korean culture" or face saving half measures to reform. Koreans also didn't mythologize their historical failures and were practical about learning from what other scientists and political systems around the world had to offer when instituting progressive reforms. In South Korea's case they have grown more secular and rationalist since the 70's instead of framing everything as South Korean culture being this innately special snowflake that can't adapt or accept progress like Thai culture often does. Prior to the 70's your average Korean was poorly educated and literacy rates were low as well.

The big question is how is it that two countries can be so similar but diverge so heavily in development? Thailand's development is still largely based on EOI industry with foreign built and maintained factories that pay out a sizable percentage to wealthy Thai conglomerates who do almost no R&D. The rich Thai elites basically collect economic "rent" for a cut of the lower end profit then reinvest it into other semi-monopolies like telecom or retail store development. These businesses are fundamentally non-competitive. Because they exist mainly through special concessions made by the government in the past. Honda and Toyota may have their manufacturing plants in Thailand but how much of that R&D is generated by Thais? The bulk of the profit is still going back to Japan. The problem is partly cultural, Thailand still has not made inroads in controlling corruption with the elites parceling out the country bit by bit nor the poor educational system. This is why there haven't been ground breaking Thai companies.

If you haven't noticed nearly all the big Thai companies are involved in land development, agriculture, or natural resources. In other words it's resource based instead of innovation based development.

If you want to read more about S. Korea's development there's an excellent book by a Korean economist called Bad Samaritan which explains how despite the incredible pressure

Edited October 10, 2011 by wintermute

[kerryk]

American troops stationed in Korea since 1950?

American expenditures in Korea since 1950?

American expenditures on Korean war?

[wintermute]

American troops stationed in Korea since 1950?

American expenditures in Korea since 1950?

American expenditures on Korean war?

America spent a lot of money building up Thailand as a bulwark against communism and even put bases down as it did Korea. The problem was that a lot of it was pilfered by the corrupt political elite of that era. Sound familiar?

I can mention a lot about specific economic cash injections and political consequences including the political purges in the turbulent 70's but for good reasons i'm not going into that. I'm sure if you are real interested in comparing the experiences of Thailand and Korea in the cold war you can do your own research.

Edited October 10, 2011 by wintermute

[Richard4849]

American troops stationed in Korea since 1950?

American expenditures in Korea since 1950?

American expenditures on Korean war?

America spent a lot of money building up Thailand as a bulwark against communism and even put bases down as it did Korea. The problem was that a lot of it was pilfered by the corrupt political elite of that era. Sound familiar?

I can mention a lot about specific economic cash injections and political consequences including the political purges in the turbulent 70's but for good reasons i'm not going into that. I'm sure if you are real interested in comparing the experiences of Thailand and Korea in the cold war you can do your own research.

The government of Thailand was no more corrupt than the government of South Korea well into the 90's, don't forget.

[samran]

And Korea had a brutal dictatorship which for much of that 'growth' period led the way on things.

Funny what a not so benevolent dictatorship can bring about in economic growth terms?

It was interventionalist economics at its most extreme and saw its comeuppance during the Asian financial crisis. The fall out took a good half decade to digest and I suggest that if you deal with Korean companies they can be as dysfunctional as any.

As for Thailand relying on Natural resources - so what? A good economist would say that this is exploiting a comparative advantage, so why not use it?

Australia, NZ, Brazil and South Africa are other examples of countries doing this, but I don't see you complaining about them?

As for your other examples (eg R&D) are you suggesting that it is somehow more efficient to replicate that in Thailand rather than have it concentrated elsewhere?

Sure, more can be done on the education side, but you obviously don't work with the calibre of Thai people that I do. Maybe you wouldn't be so dismissive of them especially I dare say they'd wipe the floor intellectually with most people on this forum.

[Richard4849]

And Korea had a brutal dictatorship which for much of that 'growth' period led the way on things.

Funny what a not so benevolent dictatorship can bring about in economic growth terms?

It was interventionalist economics at its most extreme and saw its comeuppance during the Asian financial crisis. The fall out took a good half decade to digest and I suggest that if you deal with Korean companies they can be as dysfunctional as any.

As for Thailand relying on Natural resources - so what? A good economist would say that this is exploiting a comparative advantage, so why not use it?

Australia, NZ, Brazil and South Africa are other examples of countries doing this, but I don't see you complaining about them?

As for your other examples (eg R&D) are you suggesting that it is somehow more efficient to replicate that in Thailand rather than have it concentrated elsewhere?

Sure, more can be done on the education side, but you obviously don't work with the calibre of Thai people that I do. Maybe you wouldn't be so dismissive of them especially I dare say they'd wipe the floor intellectually with most people on this forum.

+1

The Thais are also a LOT happier than the Koreans, who have one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

[wintermute]

The government of Thailand was no more corrupt than the government of South Korea well into the 90's, don't forget.

The difference is that Korea was already planning and laying down the foundation for a democratic country in the late 1980's while it was shifting from a military dictatorship. They managed to control corruption in civil service in the early 90's which greatly benefited the growing middle class.

Corruption is a cancer and I fear a lot of the root causes for it in Thailand are cultural.

[Richard4849]

The government of Thailand was no more corrupt than the government of South Korea well into the 90's, don't forget.

The difference is that Korea was already planning and laying down the foundation for a democratic country in the late 1980's while it was shifting from a military dictatorship. They managed to control corruption in civil service in the early 90's which greatly benefited the growing middle class.

Corruption is a cancer and I fear a lot of the root causes for it in Thailand are cultural.

Precisely. For all the above comparisons between the two countries, the cultures are the two almost couldn't be further apart.

Korea's transformation has been a miracle. Taiwan's and Singapore's close behind.

And Thailand's transformation has been a miracle when you compare it to Laos, Cambodia, and Burma -- who were all more or less at the same level of development 40 years ago.

So?

[wintermute]

And Korea had a brutal dictatorship which for much of that 'growth' period led the way on things.

Funny what a not so benevolent dictatorship can bring about in economic growth terms?

That's a chicken or the egg type of argument. Korea moved on from a military dictatorship before it really started to boom economically not the other way around.

It was interventionalist economics at its most extreme and say its comeuppance during the Asian financial crisis. The fall out took a good half decade to digest and I suggest that if you deal with Korean companies they can be as dysfunctional as any.

The root of the Asian financial crisis wasn't Korea it was Thailand. As is stands Korea recovered much faster than most other asian economies and flourished.

As for Thailand relying on Natural resources - so what? A good economist would say that this is exploiting a comparative advantage, so why not use it?

It's called collecting economic rent. The elite act as landlords parceling out industry and agri-conglomerates to a select few who then reinvest it into monopolizing domestic industries to prevent competition.

Many of these semi-monopolies innovate very little and are not competitive overseas. When you do see a Thai corporation doing business overseas usually it's involved in exporting some resource. That's why Thailand has no internationally competitive industry.

If you don't understand why an economy exporting resources and importing finished goods is not a good long term plan for development then maybe you need to take a course in economics. Or get one of those Thai intellectuals who can "wipe the floor with anyone" to hold your hand in this heady topic.

Australia, NZ, Brazil and South Africa are other examples of countries doing this, but I don't see you complaining about them?

Australia and NZ have a significantly different history. Brazil and SA have similar problems to Thailand actually but the difference is that all 4 of those countries (with the exception of NZ) have immense natural resources. It's like comparing the gulf arab countries to Thailand.

As for your other examples (eg R&D) are you suggesting that it is somehow more efficient to replicate that in Thailand rather than have it concentrated elsewhere?

If a country wants to become developed it has to raise the level of skilled labor and corporate competitiveness. This is economics 101. There are rare exceptions of countries becoming developed without that criteria but they are all major oil producing countries who won the geographic lottery.

Sure, more can be done on the education side, but you obviously don't work with the calibre of Thai people that I do. Maybe you wouldn't be so dismissive of them especially I dare say they'd wipe the floor intellectually with most people on this forum.

I never said there weren't smart Thai people. Here you go getting all defensive again. Actually, the type of remarks now are part of the larger cultural issues of passive aggressiveness and denial.

Edited October 10, 2011 by wintermute

[Richard4849]

You haven't done much talking to Koreans if you think they're level-headed, non-aggressive, and don't think they're better than everyone else.