Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail

[GentlemanJim]

On planet Jingthing the West Bank is booming.

I just checked into that. I may have been wrong. But they ain't starving and it's not a concentration camp either.

And what of the 'no cement', no police, chopping down of all the ancient olive groves, big 15 meter wall through more than 400 miles, conveniently altering course to cut right through the middle of any village?

Instead of throwing out random comments to then check them and find out 'you may be wrong' (you are very wrong!), why not engage brain before mouth eh!

[Jingthing]

(That is so irritating isn't it !)

Pretty irritating.

You have successfully goaded me into being your search service. OK.

I didn't call you any name. I attacked your CONTENT. I don't know you as a man and have no wish to do so.

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

* Denying the Jewish people their right to self­determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

* Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/antisemitism/EU-definition-of-antisemitism.htm Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

(That is so irritating isn't it !)

Pretty irritating.

You have successfully goaded me into being your search service. OK.

I didn't call you any name. I attacked your CONTENT. I don't know you as a man and have no wish to do so.

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

* Denying the Jewish people their right to self­determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

* Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

http://www.zionismon...ntisemitism.htm

Jingthing

You get even funnier. You have now edited all your posts to reflect the one you have above.

Now the definition you give above is rather convenient isn't it. How convenient that no matter how any future Government in Israel behaves it can never be compared to Nazi behaviour. Thats cute. And is your definition above from

I [/color]]I have already posted the EU link several times in my posting history. I am not your search service. I wasn't referring to a dictionary definition. I was talking about a much more detailed guideline to determine antisemitic content in the context of modern politics.

I dont think your definition is from an EU policy document is it?? Come on own up!! Isn't that source an extremist zionist site?? I think so!! Shame on you!

by the way, what about the no cement, no police, no fishing, 15 m high walls etc etc come on fess up.

And Jingthing, the quoted text you offer us above as a discussion of anti semitism has an important bit right at the end that you missed out.

Quote "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." Unquote

Edited September 20, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[GentlemanJim]

Jingthing

If you consider I am unqualified to make comparisons between the treatment of Palestinians and the treatment of the jews in the Warsaw ghetto, perhaps you would accept words from someone who is qualified. Honest Jews who experienced and survived the holocaust have often made the comparison between Israel’s brutal treatment of the Palestinian people and the Nazis’ brutal treatments of Jews and others. Here is part of a letter to the Israeli Press twenty-five years ago in which Shlomo Shmelzman a survivor of the holocaust wrote:

“In my childhood I have suffered fear, hunger and humiliation when I passed from the Warsaw Ghetto, through labour camps, to Buchenwald. I hear too many familiar sounds today, sounds which are being amplified by the war. I hear about ‘closed areas’ and I remember ghettos and camps. I hear ‘two-legged beasts’ and I remember ‘Untermenschen’ [subhumans]. I hear about tightening the siege, clearing the area, pounding the city into submission, and I remember suffering, destruction, death, blood and murder … Too many things in Israel remind me of too many things from my childhood”. (Ha’aretz, August 11, 1982).

Now perhaps you can rant and rave and debunk the words of a Holocaust survivor. Would you like more? There's lots, but you may not sleep tonight.

[Jingthing]

I dont think your definition is from an EU policy document is it?? Come on own up!! Isn't that source an extremist zionist site?? I think so!! Shame on you!

Oh ye of little faith.

http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

I don't mind if you quote actual holocaust survivors. Knock yourself out. I expect a complete report within 24 hours, snap to it! I do mind if someone such as you puts words in dead people's mouths they never uttered.

"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

Yes, I agree 100 percent. That does not mean saying modern Israel policies are equivalent to Nazi Germany is acceptable. If Israel builds gas chambers and commits mass genocide, the EU policy sheet can be revised.

Again, I am not voicing support for all Israeli policies or denying legitimate Palestinian grievances, just objecting to antisemitic rants.

Serious, GJ, is it beyond your capabilities to discuss the situation in Israel and the Palestinian lands without suggesting Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany? I think you could cope, but you know it is a hot button to go there, so you go there. So, shame on who exactly?

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Maestro]

I suggest that GentlemanJim and Jingthing end their scholarly discussion about the definition of antisemitism in this topic, as it is off topic here.

[cdnvic]

Removed three posts that didn't heed Maestro's request. Any further ignoring of his request, or debating moderation in the topic will result in lost posting rights.

[Jingthing]

Anyhows ... here is an excellent analysis of the huge mistake Abbas is making in pushing this pointless UN circus, harming his own Palestinian people, for what? (His own ego.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-heedless-rush-for-palestinian-statehood/2011/09/19/gIQAUTLagK_story.html

A heedless rush for Palestinian statehood

MAHMOUD ABBAS acknowledged Monday what many Palestinians and Arab leaders concluded long ago: The result of his plan to pursue U.N. ratification of Palestinian statehood will be more hardship for the people of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Congress may terminate U.S. aid, causing an instant economic crisis; Israel is hinting at retaliation, ranging from the withholding of tax funds to the annexation of its West Bank settlements. At worst, demonstrations being orchestrated by Mr. Abbas to support the statehood initiative will get out of hand, producing a violent confrontation with Israel.

...

So far, the rescue mission appears to be making little headway. Mr. Abbas, who at 76 has announced his intention to retire next year, has little incentive to abandon an initiative that, in the form of a General Assembly resolution, could provide him with a superficial political legacy — and save him from embracing the painful concessions that would be needed for an agreement with Israel. Attempts by former British prime minister Tony Blair to formulate a statement by the European Union, United States and Russia that could serve as the basis for new Israeli-Palestinian negotiations have foundered in part because of the Palestinian refusal to accept language describing Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people. European proposals for a compromise General Assembly initiative have met similar resistance.

I suggest that GentlemanJim and Jingthing end their scholarly discussion about the definition of antisemitism in this topic, as it is off topic here.

A most excellent suggestion!

Edited September 20, 2011 by Scott
deleted quote edited out

[Scott]

An off-topic post with profanity has been deleted.

Let's stay on the topic, please.

There are some good points made on both sides, let's not drowned them out with off-topic discussions.

Thanks.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Scott
oops--used 'defeated' instead of deleted.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

You might want to re-read the original post.

[Steely Dan]

Anyhows ... here is an excellent analysis of the huge mistake Abbas is making in pushing this pointless UN circus, harming his own Palestinian people, for what? (His own ego.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-heedless-rush-for-palestinian-statehood/2011/09/19/gIQAUTLagK_story.html

A heedless rush for Palestinian statehood

MAHMOUD ABBAS acknowledged Monday what many Palestinians and Arab leaders concluded long ago: The result of his plan to pursue U.N. ratification of Palestinian statehood will be more hardship for the people of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Congress may terminate U.S. aid, causing an instant economic crisis; Israel is hinting at retaliation, ranging from the withholding of tax funds to the annexation of its West Bank settlements. At worst, demonstrations being orchestrated by Mr. Abbas to support the statehood initiative will get out of hand, producing a violent confrontation with Israel.

...

So far, the rescue mission appears to be making little headway. Mr. Abbas, who at 76 has announced his intention to retire next year, has little incentive to abandon an initiative that, in the form of a General Assembly resolution, could provide him with a superficial political legacy — and save him from embracing the painful concessions that would be needed for an agreement with Israel. Attempts by former British prime minister Tony Blair to formulate a statement by the European Union, United States and Russia that could serve as the basis for new Israeli-Palestinian negotiations have foundered in part because of the Palestinian refusal to accept language describing Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people. European proposals for a compromise General Assembly initiative have met similar resistance.

First Yasser Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, except to line his own pockets with gold. Now Mr Abbas follows in his corrupt self-serving footsteps. They are following the centuries old Arab model of corrupt despot. Then there's Hamas, mentally ill theocrats who are even a step backwards. What chance do the Palestinians stand? Yes of course they blame Israel due to their mother's milk racism and backwards ideology but their western apologists externalize every ill that befell them on their long suffering neighbor. But of course they bear no malice or prejudice in so doing.

[geriatrickid]

Will statehood provide jobs, economic opportunity, educational advancement, food on the table or reduce infant mortality? Or will it just be another empty promise to distract the millions from the fact that their oppressors are fellow arabs?

[dave111223]

Honestly guys do you actually think you are winning people over to your view point, or are you mostly preaching for the benefit of the choir?

[Steely Dan]

Honestly guys do you actually think you are winning people over to your view point, or are you mostly preaching for the benefit of the choir?

Philistines the lot of em.

[dave111223]

Philistines the lot of em.

I just feel like throughout this thread i've been belittled, condescended to, accused, threatened, ridiculed...and for what? Offering an opinion? I'd doesn't exactly make me feel like "maybe you have a good point"?

If the posters on here in anyway reflect the feeling on the ground in Israel how the heck would the Palestinian ever be expected to be able to "negotiate their freedom"?

It almost brings us back full circle to the beginning as to why the Palestinians feel the need to go to the UN.

Edited September 21, 2011 by dave111223

[Scott]

Dave, sorry that you feel that way. You have every right to your opinion and your opinion is welcomed.

The Middle East is a very touchy situation and we have posters who know every argument and counter argument. It does not hurt any of them to know how people feel and why--regardless of which side of the fence (or wall) you are on.

These threads, however, do lack that warm, fuzzy feeling we sometimes get.

[Steely Dan]

Philistines the lot of em.

I just feel like throughout this thread i've been belittled, condescended to, accused, threatened, ridiculed...and for what? Offering an opinion? I'd doesn't exactly make me feel like "maybe you have a good point"?

If the posters on here in anyway reflect the feeling on the ground in Israel how the heck would the Palestinian ever be expected to be able to "negotiate their freedom"?

It almost brings us back full circle to the beginning as to why the Palestinians feel the need to go to the UN.

Dave,

You say you have no dog in this fight? Well just try for a moment imagining what things are like for the Israelis seeing as you appear to have no difficulty imagining from the Palestinian perspective and I can understand that if the BBC is your news staple.

I don't know where you lived in England, but imagine instead of our neighbours being France, Belgium and Holland they were Syria, Egypt and Lebanon. Imagine your Country 9 miles wide. Imagine it invaded 3 times in the last 60 years. Imagine your neighbors TV channels having cartoons for their children telling how glorious it is to kill you. Imagine never a day going by without one of your compatriots being attacked. Imagine a systematic propaganda machine constructed by the outside world to vilify you at the UN, boycott your products and academic institutions. And your crime? Whatever the Israelis have done is far far less than their neighbors do to each other year in year out, but you are held accountable to a separate higher moral standard than any of them. All by people with only a sketchy understanding of your reality fed them by a biased press as they eat their breakfast in some leafy suburb of a peaceful town.

[Wallaby]

Honestly guys do you actually think you are winning people over to your view point, or are you mostly preaching for the benefit of the choir?

I am not trying to win over the Israel-haters. I know something about the history of the region and like to counter the lies that they propogate in order to demonize the Jewish nation.

By the way, I do not buy your "nuetrality" and IMO what you have posted is not "nuetral" in any way.

Yes Dave, you have just proved your point yet again. Those that don't agree with the pro Israel propaganda are labelled and attempts made to belittle them. Similar to school kids who think that shouting down someone means they win. Quite funny how they think that.

[dave111223]

I am not trying to win over the Israel-haters. I know something about the history of the region and like to counter the lies that they propogate in order to demonize the Jewish nation.

By the way, I do not buy your "nuetrality" and IMO what you have posted is not "nuetral" in any way.

I can understand your right to put across your opinion and many of the pro-Israel posters have posted interested/valid facts to backup their opinions. However i feel this has all been totally overshadowed by the accusations, ridicule and condescension that are included with every post.

You're response to my post about being poorly treated, is to again falsely accuse me of being a racist?

[Scott]

Once again, back on the topic and the topic isn't about posters.

[flying]

Yes dave it is obvious you have not been in these types of threads before.

Let me lay out the rules for you

1) If your opinion is that Israel is not 100% right 100% of the time then you are not neutral.

2) If you should ignore rule #1 you will be shouted down & accused of everything from being a Nazi to an antisemitic

3)If you continue to have any logical follow up response to the opinion police you will either have more of #2

or the opinion police will succeed as usual in getting your post removed or better yet the whole thread closed.

Anyway as you say the experience...if it does not drive you insane will bring you full circle & reinforce the reason for this topic in the first place.

If this is how it is trying to talk sensibly on a forum based in Thailand imagine what it is like to actually be in Palestine.

Hopefully Palestine will win their statehood bid. all the nonsense about instability went out the window when one considers the causes of their instability.

Not unlike Libya who has been invited to sit at the UN next week even though as of this moment they have no government to speak of at all. But of course they have something many at the UN want. Palestine does not.

[JUDAS]

Philistines the lot of em.

I just feel like throughout this thread i've been belittled, condescended to, accused, threatened, ridiculed...and for what? Offering an opinion? I'd doesn't exactly make me feel like "maybe you have a good point"?

Opinions on situations can be developed in many ways dave. You have come to your viewpoint by looking at events in the region over a relatively short period of time, a few years? Others have reached their position by taking a much longer term view, historically speaking. Where one lives and the media sources ( amongst may other things ) one is exposed to obviously plays a large part in one's decision making process. As a western child we all learn about the horrors of the Holocaust, if this was the point at which a lasting view was created on the Israel/Palestine conflict then I'm sure 99.9% of westerners would be pro Israel in just about any circumstances.

Many who post on these threads have studied and have a good awareness of the conflict in a historical context and reach their opinion based on that study/knowledge. What many fail to recognize though is that people tend to have very short memories. Joe Public is not in any way affected by a conflict occurring many thousand of miles from their homeland so his opinion, like many, is based on current media reports. Politically, I find it interesting that you have reached your opinion based on fairly recent events.

It's rather unfortunate you feel belittled in posting your view on this thread. I would have thought that any pro Israeli posters would be better off trying to convince you of the error of your ways ( in their opinion ) rather than put you down. The very real risk of belittling someones view point is that they actually come away feeling more justified in their view, because the other side makes them feel bad, somewhat counter productive.

[Ulysses G.]

You're response to my post about being poorly treated, is to again falsely accuse me of being a racist?

I accused you of not being nuetral on the topic of Israel and the Palestinians. There is no accusation of being a racist.

[dave111223]

I accused you of not being nuetral on the topic of Israel and the Palestinians. There is no accusation of being a racist.

Who are you kidding?

[Ulysses G.]

Huh???

[dave111223]

Dave,

You say you have no dog in this fight? Well just try for a moment imagining what things are like for the Israelis seeing as you appear to have no difficulty imagining from the Palestinian perspective and I can understand that if the BBC is your news staple.

I don't know where you lived in England, but imagine instead of our neighbours being France, Belgium and Holland they were Syria, Egypt and Lebanon. Imagine your Country 9 miles wide. Imagine it invaded 3 times in the last 60 years. Imagine your neighbors TV channels having cartoons for their children telling how glorious it is to kill you. Imagine never a day going by without one of your compatriots being attacked. Imagine a systematic propaganda machine constructed by the outside world to vilify you at the UN, boycott your products and academic institutions. And your crime? Whatever the Israelis have done is far far less than their neighbors do to each other year in year out, but you are held accountable to a separate higher moral standard than any of them. All by people with only a sketchy understanding of your reality fed them by a biased press as they eat their breakfast in some leafy suburb of a peaceful town.

I hear you that Israel has been attacked from all over the place for years and years and is in a very difficult position with regards to its neighbors, who are largely filled with ingrained hatred.

But if i did have person experience of being involved in that situation (ie my house getting hit by a rocket attack or something), how would i be able to objectively view current events?

I just can't see the answer to hate being more hate and repression? Surely unless you are willing to totally destroy the haters in Palatine and neighboring countries then repression is never going to work, only going to breed more hate?

[dave111223]

Huh???

Still trying?

[Wallaby]

Philistines the lot of em.

I just feel like throughout this thread i've been belittled, condescended to, accused, threatened, ridiculed...and for what? Offering an opinion? I'd doesn't exactly make me feel like "maybe you have a good point"?

Opinions on situations can be developed in many ways dave. You have come to your viewpoint by looking at events in the region over a relatively short period of time, a few years? Others have reached their position by taking a much longer term view, historically speaking. Where one lives and the media sources ( amongst may other things ) one is exposed to obviously plays a large part in one's decision making process. As a western child we all learn about the horrors of the Holocaust, if this was the point at which a lasting view was created on the Israel/Palestine conflict then I'm sure 99.9% of westerners would be pro Israel in just about any circumstances.

Many who post on these threads have studied and have a good awareness of the conflict in a historical context and reach their opinion based on that study/knowledge. What many fail to recognize though is that people tend to have very short memories. Joe Public is not in any way affected by a conflict occurring many thousand of miles from their homeland so his opinion, like many, is based on current media reports. Politically, I find it interesting that you have reached your opinion based on fairly recent events.

It's rather unfortunate you feel belittled in posting your view on this thread. I would have thought that any pro Israeli posters would be better off trying to convince you of the error of your ways ( in their opinion ) rather than put you down. The very real risk of belittling someones view point is that they actually come away feeling more justified in their view, because the other side makes them feel bad, somewhat counter productive.

Very well put.

[Steely Dan]

Dave,

You say you have no dog in this fight? Well just try for a moment imagining what things are like for the Israelis seeing as you appear to have no difficulty imagining from the Palestinian perspective and I can understand that if the BBC is your news staple.

I don't know where you lived in England, but imagine instead of our neighbours being France, Belgium and Holland they were Syria, Egypt and Lebanon. Imagine your Country 9 miles wide. Imagine it invaded 3 times in the last 60 years. Imagine your neighbors TV channels having cartoons for their children telling how glorious it is to kill you. Imagine never a day going by without one of your compatriots being attacked. Imagine a systematic propaganda machine constructed by the outside world to vilify you at the UN, boycott your products and academic institutions. And your crime? Whatever the Israelis have done is far far less than their neighbors do to each other year in year out, but you are held accountable to a separate higher moral standard than any of them. All by people with only a sketchy understanding of your reality fed them by a biased press as they eat their breakfast in some leafy suburb of a peaceful town.

I hear you that Israel has been attacked from all over the place for years and years and is in a very difficult position with regards to its neighbors, who are largely filled with ingrained hatred.

But if i did have person experience of being involved in that situation (ie my house getting hit by a rocket attack or something), how would i be able to objectively view current events?

I just can't see the answer to hate being more hate and repression? Surely unless you are willing to totally destroy the haters in Palatine and neighboring countries then repression is never going to work, only going to breed more hate?

I think the hate is a chicken and egg situation. The Mufti of Jerusalem (Yasser Arafat's ancestor) cooperated willingly and enthusiastically with Hitler to the degree he set up Muslim SS units in the Balkans; they alone were responsible for the deaths of 400,000 Jews. So the Jews should by your logic have an equal or greater 'right to hate'. But despite the propaganda thrown at them they have been a lot more forgiving than any of their Arab neighbours. Indeed Israel has completely normal relations with Germany, I've even lived and worked in Germany myself.

So why is this? Well for a start Jews are not fed mother's milk hatred and for the most part are as secular in instinct as most Europeans. This is not true alas of the Arabs, (I refer to them generically as that is what so called Palestinians are). I could print images from the Egyptian spring showing swastikas and signs saying 'The gas chambers are ready'. And just how many Egyptians have the Israelis bombed or killed in the last 25 years?

P.S I'm sorry if my last remark seemed condescending, it was unnecessary of me and I apologize, whilst you think about your own hurt feelings just imagine how I might feel seeing the cartoon you posted which I consider such a travesty of the truth as I'm certain the Israelis do not deliberately target civilians and the Palestinians do cynically use them as human shields. Still as you say you don't really have an in depth knowledge of the Israel-Palestine situation.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Steely Dan

[Credo]

When I lived in the Middle East, I was fed a pretty steady diet of anti-Israeli information. I must admit, however, it only came up when there was an international incident and then Israel always figured into the equation.

I consider myself pretty neutral. I wouldn't want to be either a Palestinian or an Israeli. My thoughts and sympathies are with both.

My objection to Palestinian statehood is not strong, but when they become a nation, I want them to succeed. I want them to not be a launching pad for intensified hatred. I want them to have an economy where the young people have a job and a future. This hate is more about not really having a life or an opportunity than it is about anything else.

One side has a lot to lose. The other side has nothing to lose. A recipe for disaster.