Thai Sayings and Phrases Wanted

[bannork]

Here is one that I havent heard for a while.

ไมหึงไมหวง แต่อย่าควงให้เห้น

Mai huung mai hoowang dtae yar koowang hai hen

Literal translation I am not worried I am not worried but dont let me see you arm in arm with someone else(or with another lover)

The sayings that comes to mind would be

"What You Don't Know Won't Hurt You?"

or "I am not going to worry until I see it" might be a good one.

or there is "If you are going to do it I dont want to know about"

Can anyone think of a better English saying to match this. They are the only 3 I could come up with.

In The Rai!

Watch the spelling here, ie it should be ไม่ not ไม and เห็น not เห้น - I like this phrase In The Rai as I've often heard this sentiment expressed by Thai women, ie what the boyfriend, husband does when apart is his own business but don't let him flaunt another woman in front of her or let her catch him with her.

My wife has said this but I don't believe her frankly! Any inkling of straying would I believe lead to severe penalties for myself, some form of horrific injury or permanent incapacitation, probably committed by one of our blunt farm implements.

But in Thai law adultery is not grounds for divorce, the man must be seen to have publicly humiliated his wife by parading his mistress in public.

I'm not sure we have one phrase in English to cover both parts of the Thai saying you quote, the first you quote is the same as 'ignorance is bliss', the second is 'I'll cross that bridge when I come to it' and the third suggests the other half has already decided to do it and the speaker is resigned to it.

Another literal translation might be-' I'm not jealous and I'm not possessive but don't let me see you arm in arm with another woman'

Or, more metaphorically- ' I'm not jealous or possessive but don't flaunt your floosie in front of me'.

[Rikker]

Good (and amusing) post, bannork.

I agree about the translation. Thai has that style of alliterative repetition of synonyms which don't both need to be translated into English, so you might even simply render it as something like, "I'm not the jealous type, but don't flaunt your floosie in front of me."

Or, if this was being said to someone trying to warn a woman about a cheatin' hubby: "I'm not the jealous type, as long as he doesn't flaunt it in front of me."

Et cetera.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Rikker

[bannork]

I love the way Thais refer to various body parts and functions in a 'front page' acceptability kind of way.

Yesterday there was a story regarding a policeman who had a mistress, a singer in a nightclub. Every weekend he would visit her and stay overnight, until last weekend, when arriving he heard the sound of a male voice in the room.

Peering through the slanted glass panels, the type that lets air but not rain in,he saw his darling cooing and canoodling with the deputy manager. In his rage he fired 2 bullets through the gap in the glass.

The consequence was one bullet grazed the man's พวงสวรรค์ puang sawan, ie his bunch of heaven, his orbs of pleasure.

He survived and is now out of danger regarding his life, but as for his balls, no news so far.

[Rikker]

I heard พวงสวรรค์ very early on while learning Thai, from a "friend" trying to trick my into saying it when I meant พรสวรรค์, but here's my question:

Does it include the twig and berries or just the berries? I was under the impression it was the whole bunch, but I wonder if it doesn't vary among how different people use it.

And on the topic of newspaper euphemisms, a few years back I was VERY startled to learn what เจ้าโลก meant when I saw a headline along the lines of: ชายคลั่งตัดเจ้าโลกตัวเองทอดกิน.

He had himself some homegrown fried sausage, to further mask it in euphemism. Yeesh!

[In the Rai!]

I heard พวงสวรรค์ very early on while learning Thai, from a "friend" trying to trick my into saying it when I meant พรสวรรค์, but here's my question:

Does it include the twig and berries or just the berries? I was under the impression it was the whole bunch, but I wonder if it doesn't vary among how different people use it.

And on the topic of newspaper euphemisms, a few years back I was VERY startled to learn what เจ้าโลก meant when I saw a headline along the lines of: ชายคลั่งตัดเจ้าโลกตัวเองทอดกิน.

He had himself some homegrown fried sausage, to further mask it in euphemism. Yeesh!

uuummmm fried เจ้าโลก for dinner tonight I think.. How wrong is that!

Here is one that I was reminded of last night while watching the rugby with the wife. I stood up from my comfortable chair and got her and myself a cold refreshing beer beverage. On my return I noticed that she had taken my comfortable chair for herself. I said " but I was getting us a drink"

Her reply was ลุกแล้วเสียม้า meaning you stood up bad luck. There is also this one I have heard before aswell ลุกแล้วลุกเลย meaning well you stood up and left.

They can only be used in reagards to taking someones chair and nothing else I believe.

I would say "you snooze you lose" or something along those lines.

For the record she watched the rest of the game comfortable but beerless...

In The Rai!

[meadish_sweetball]

Nice one ITR - I remember a friend talking about เสียที่นั่ง with the same meaning. Also, ม้านั่ง means "bench", so I guess your wife's expression may be a shortening/combination of those two.

[Edward B]

Can anybody help with a direct leteral translation of this phrase if they know it.

"Gon gum gon gwean"

It apparently means "what goes around comes around" and has something to do with The cart wheel turning full circle.

Any ideas ?

Thanks

P

"Gon gum gon gwean" - กงกำกงเกวียน

But the correct phrase for this idiom is กงเกวียนกำเกวียน

กงเกวียน - wheel of a cart.

กำเกวียน - wheel-spoke.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน - a simile indicating the inevitability of cause and effect which equivalent to ' vicious circle' in English.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน gets 177 hits on Google while กงกำกงเกวียน gets 198. You were wrong before about น้ำ, Yoot. Are you sure about this one? In any case, neither expression means "viscious circle" (or "viscious cycle"). The expression simply means "what goes around comes around", and is similar to another Thai saying: ให้ทุกข์แก่ท่าน ทุกข์นั้นถึงตัว.

A Thai saying for "viscious circle" (similar to a catch-22 situation) is difficult to find. It may be close to ไข่เกิดก่อนไก่ หรือ ไก่เกิดก่อนไข่ - "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". However I can't think of any other saying in Thai to better capture this expression. Anyone else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

[In the Rai!]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Edward B @ 2006-11-08 15:13:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

Can anybody help with a direct leteral translation of this phrase if they know it.

"Gon gum gon gwean"

It apparently means "what goes around comes around" and has something to do with The cart wheel turning full circle.

Any ideas ?

Thanks

P

"Gon gum gon gwean" - กงกำกงเกวียน

But the correct phrase for this idiom is กงเกวียนกำเกวียน

กงเกวียน - wheel of a cart.

กำเกวียน - wheel-spoke.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน - a simile indicating the inevitability of cause and effect which equivalent to ' vicious circle' in English.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน gets 177 hits on Google while กงกำกงเกวียน gets 198. You were wrong before about น้ำ, Yoot. Are you sure about this one? In any case, neither expression means "viscious circle" (or "viscious cycle"). The expression simply means "what goes around comes around", and is similar to another Thai saying: ให้ทุกข์แก่ท่าน ทุกข์นั้นถึงตัว.

A Thai saying for "viscious circle" (similar to a catch-22 situation) is difficult to find. It may be close to ไข่เกิดก่อนไก่ หรือ ไก่เกิดก่อนไข่ - "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". However I can't think of any other saying in Thai to better capture this expression. Anyone else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

Edward B,

I agree, viscious circle is วัฏจักรแห่งความชั่วร้าย IMO

In The Rai!

Edited November 8, 2006 by In the Rai!

[meadish_sweetball]

vicious circle, not viscious*. (from lat. circulus vitiosus)

วัฏโกโลโก (suggested in "New Model Thai-English Dictionary" gets the same number of Google hits, i.e. 17, as วัฏจักรแห่งความชั่วร้าย (suggested in Oxford Riverbooks English-Thai dictionary).

With such a low hit score, both appear to be direct translations of the foreign concept rather than fully internalized and commonly used expressions.

[yoot]

-->

QUOTE(Edward B @ 2006-11-08 15:13:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can anybody help with a direct leteral translation of this phrase if they know it.

"Gon gum gon gwean"

It apparently means "what goes around comes around" and has something to do with The cart wheel turning full circle.

Any ideas ?

Thanks

P

"Gon gum gon gwean" - กงกำกงเกวียน

But the correct phrase for this idiom is กงเกวียนกำเกวียน

กงเกวียน - wheel of a cart.

กำเกวียน - wheel-spoke.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน - a simile indicating the inevitability of cause and effect which equivalent to ' vicious circle' in English.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน gets 177 hits on Google while กงกำกงเกวียน gets 198. You were wrong before about น้ำ, Yoot. Are you sure about this one? In any case, neither expression means "viscious circle" (or "viscious cycle"). The expression simply means "what goes around comes around", and is similar to another Thai saying: ให้ทุกข์แก่ท่าน ทุกข์นั้นถึงตัว.

A Thai saying for "viscious circle" (similar to a catch-22 situation) is difficult to find. It may be close to ไข่เกิดก่อนไก่ หรือ ไก่เกิดก่อนไข่ - "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". However I can't think of any other saying in Thai to better capture this expression. Anyone else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

With all due respect, Edward. I don't think I was wrong about water in that thread. What I said that was I accepted that it would pronounce that way but it's not wrong either to pronounce as it's written as it was discussed among Thais so many times.

About this saying. If you have time to search for how many hits each saying got, why don't you take time to read details in each pages. You would get the better explanation than just asking here.

For example; http://academic.obec.go.th/thaipage/d7.htm

From this website, it can clarify your understand well enough, me think.

As for English saying equivalent, I didn't make it up myself. I did reseach about it from books the same as everytime when I replied any threadห here since I'm not good at English enough to express it well from my understanding.

On one book I read, "สนุกกับสุภาษิตคำพังเพย" I will quote from it;

' " Vicious circle " สำนวนของฝรั่งที่มีคำตรงตัวว่า "วงเวียนบาป" หรือ "วังวนเวรกรรม" นี่แหละ เป็นสำนวนที่เทียบเคียงกันได้กับสำนวน "กงเกวียนกำเกวียน" ของเรา ในพจนานุกรมอังกฤษ-ไทยของสอ เสถบุตร ก็แปลไว้ว่า "วัฏโกโลโก" เข้าหลักธรรมเลยทีเดียว '

Vicious circle - n. neverending cycle, situation that one cannot escape from or change, cycle of action and reaction that repeats itself over and over again; chain of events wherein the reaction to one difficulty produces a new problem that markes the original difficulty worse

As for these definitions, I think it's quite the same as the moving of the cart, you would never know where is the ending of its' cycle, the neverending cycle, as in the saying we discuss.

For another saying you put it as a similar example, it's in this book too.

It said that they are similar but the writer used another English saying for this Thai saying. The English saying he used is ' Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind'.

[Rikker]

Out of curiosity, which thread was it where the pronunciation of น้ำ was discussed, that is now so dogging (unnecessarily, I think) Yoot's credibility?

Back to vicious circle (or cycle, as I prefer), sayings like these are tricky to state authoritative equivalents for. Even if it is printed in a book somewhere, it remains the opinion of the author, but it's still interesting to know your sources, Yoot.

From my experience, the phrase "vicious circle/cycle" is much more common than "Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind," which I can understand the meaning of, but it's not something I've seen frequently at all. Obviously, YMMV.

Here's my authoritative opinion (oxymoron) as a native English speaker. As people use it, vicious circle/cycle means a cycle that is two things:

1. Self-perpetuating

2. Inescapable or difficult to escape, because of the self-perpetuating nature of it.

An example of a vicious circle as I understand it would be a fat person who eats too much to drown out their disgust with their body, but because they eat so much it continues to cause them to hate their body image, and is thus a vicious cycle. (Daily pop culture reference: This is the meaning used by the Fat Bastard character in that Austin Powers sequel, for example.)

So, the idea is, one bad thing leads to another bad thing, which fuels the first bad thing. Of course, there may be more than two elements in the cycle, but that's the basic idea, as I understand it.

----

Now back to the Thai idiom. I don't think it's an exact match for vicious cycle, but here are my thoughts regarding the argument of which version of it is correct:

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน is the "correct" version according to the Royal Institute Dictionary, which is the legal authority on such things. That, of course, doesn't govern popular usage.

Allow me to suggest a theory. Could it be that the variant version กงกำกงเกวียน is common in speech, and has acquired a folk reanalysis of the meaning?

Run with me here: Imagine if we respell it กงกรรมกงเกวียน, then wouldn't it be possible to translate it as "the circle of karma (is like a) wagon wheel"?

Yoot, is it possible that even though กงเกวียนกำเกวียน is correct, people say กงกำกงเกวียน because กำ is a homophone of กรรม, and that's what it makes them think of?

As a final note, Yoot, I always appreciate your contributions very much. Many thanks!

----

Edit: I did a Google search to support my theory, and กงกรรมกงเกวียน returns 630 results. Compelling!

Edited November 8, 2006 by Rikker

[In the Rai!]

Out of curiosity, which thread was it where the pronunciation of น้ำ was discussed, that is now so dogging (unnecessarily, I think) Yoot's credibility?

Back to vicious circle (or cycle, as I prefer), sayings like these are tricky to state authoritative equivalents for. Even if it is printed in a book somewhere, it remains the opinion of the author, but it's still interesting to know your sources, Yoot.

From my experience, the phrase "vicious circle/cycle" is much more common than "Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind," which I can understand the meaning of, but it's not something I've seen frequently at all. Obviously, YMMV.

Here's my authoritative opinion (oxymoron) as a native English speaker. As people use it, vicious circle/cycle means a cycle that is two things:

1. Self-perpetuating

2. Inescapable or difficult to escape, because of the self-perpetuating nature of it.

An example of a vicious circle as I understand it would be a fat person who eats too much to drown out their disgust with their body, but because they eat so much it continues to cause them to hate their body image, and is thus a vicious cycle. (Daily pop culture reference: This is the meaning used by the Fat Bastard character in that Austin Powers sequel, for example.)

So, the idea is, one bad thing leads to another bad thing, which fuels the first bad thing. Of course, there may be more than two elements in the cycle, but that's the basic idea, as I understand it.

----

Now back to the Thai idiom. I don't think it's an exact match for vicious cycle, but here are my thoughts regarding the argument of which version of it is correct:

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน is the "correct" version according to the Royal Institute Dictionary, which is the legal authority on such things. That, of course, doesn't govern popular usage.

Allow me to suggest a theory. Could it be that the variant version กงกำกงเกวียน is common in speech, and has acquired a folk reanalysis of the meaning?

Run with me here: Imagine if we respell it กงกรรมกงเกวียน, then wouldn't it be possible to translate it as "the circle of karma (is like a) wagon wheel"?

Yoot, is it possible that even though กงเกวียนกำเกวียน is correct, people say กงกำกงเกวียน because กำ is a homophone of กรรม, and that's what it makes them think of?

As a final note, Yoot, I always appreciate your contributions very much. Many thanks!

----

Edit: I did a Google search to support my theory, and กงกรรมกงเกวียน returns 630 results. Compelling!

I agree Rikker,

I think it is fantastic that we have native speakers on this forum. Yoot you really do make things clearer for me anyway.

As for vicious circle, It is more like a catch 22, meaning you cant win either way you go.

Thus making กงเกวียนกำเกวียน more like "what goes around comes around" like it will catch up with you in the future.

To me vicious circle would be more like วัฏจักรแห่งความชั่วร้าย or วัฏโกโลโก wouyldnt you agree. Maybe this is not the closest but I feel it is closer than กงเกวียนกำเกวียน which as you said Rikker is more like Karma.

Any clarity on this guys

In The Rai!

[yoot]

Out of curiosity, which thread was it where the pronunciation of น้ำ was discussed, that is now so dogging (unnecessarily, I think) Yoot's credibility?

For your curiosity;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...29039&st=30

And may I quote from the king's speech?

Well, there are two pages that you guys can read them yourselves. But I will quote some part to make it easier to find out.

http://web.ku.ac.th/king72/2542-05/menu-1.htm

"เรามีโชคดีที่มีภาษาของตนเองแต่โบราณกาล จึงสมควรอย่างยิ่งที่จะรักษาไว้ ปัญหาเฉพาะในด้านรักษาภาษานี้ก็มีหลายประการ อย่างหนึ่งต้องรักษาให้บริสุทธิ์ในทางออกเสียง คือให้ออกเสียงให้ถูกต้องชัดเจน อีกอย่างหนึ่งต้องรักษาให้บริสุทธิ์ในวิธีใช้ หมายความว่าวิธีใช้คำมาประกอบเป็นประโยคนับเป็นปัญหาที่ สำคัญปัญหาที่สามคือความร่ำรวยในคำของภาษาไทยซึ่งพวก เรานึกว่าไม่ร่ำรวยพอ จึงต้องมีการบัญญัติศัพท์ใหม่มาใช้ ที่โต๊ะนี้ก็มี "ศัพท์บัญญัติกร" หลายท่าน นี่ก็จะได้เป็นศัพท์บัญญัติกรไปอีกคนหนึ่ง มีคนเดียวที่ไม่ใช่ คืออาจารย์สุมนชาติ การบัญญัติศัพท์ใหม่ก็เป็นสิ่งสำคัญเหมือนกัน จำเป็น แต่อันตราย ฉะนั้นในปัญหาทั้งสามนี้ วันนี้นึกถึงปัญหาที่สามเป็นใหญ่ แต่ปัญหาเรื่องการออกเสียงนั้นก็อันตรายอย่างยิ่ง นึกถึงคำว่ามหาวิทยาลัย เดี๋ยวนี้ทางโทรทัศน์หรือทางวิทยุได้ยินว่า "หมาวิทยาลัย" กลายเป็น "วิทยาลัยหมา" ออกจะอันตราย ซึ่งเรายอมไม่ได้ บางอย่างเรายอมได้อย่างคำว่า "ฉัน" ที่จริงเขียนว่าฉัน แต่ว่าพูดกัน "ชั้น" ทั้งนั้น ก็เป็นสิ่งที่ต้องยอมไว้บ้าง แต่บางทีก็เกินไปหน่อยกลายเป็นอย่างอื่นในคำว่าฉันนี่ คำว่า "น้าม" เขียนว่า "น้ำ" แต่ออกเสียงว่า "น้าม" นี่เราก็ต้องยอมบ้าง อย่างนี้ไม่เป็นไร "

http://www.thaisnews.com/prdnews/king/tamroy/language.html

'พระราชดำรัส พระบาทสมเด็จพระเจ้าอยู่หัว ในการประชุมทางวิชาการ ชุมนุมภาษาไทย คณะอักษรศาสตร์ จุฬาลงกรณ์มหาวิทยาลัย ณ ห้องประชุมคณะอักษรศาสตร์ วันที่ ๒๙ กรกฎาคม ๒๕๐๕ ทรงแสดงความห่วงใยในภาษาไทย ซึ่งเป็นเอกลักษณ์ของชาติ ที่กำลังจะถูกทำลายหากไม่ช่วยกันรักษา โดยเฉพาะอย่างยิ่งการออกเสียงที่ไม่ถูกต้อง อย่างเช่นคำว่า "ฉัน" ออกเสียงเป็น "ชั้น" คำว่า "น้ำ" คำว่า"น้ำ" ออกเสียงเป็น "น้าม" ส่วนความร่ำรวยในคำของภาษาไทยนั้นมีอยู่มาก มีการบัญญัติศัพท์ใหม่ๆ ขึ้นมาใช้ แล้วก็ไม่ได้ใช้เพราะไม่เข้าใจในความหมาย จึงควรที่จะใช้คำเก่าๆ ที่มีอยู่แล้ว ไม่ควรจะมาตั้งศัพท์ใหม่ให้ยุ่งยาก '

That's why I said I don't think I was wrong in that thread. Thanks everyone.

[In the Rai!]

Out of curiosity, which thread was it where the pronunciation of น้ำ was discussed, that is now so dogging (unnecessarily, I think) Yoot's credibility?

For your curiosity;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...29039&st=30

And may I quote from the king's speech?

Well, there are two pages that you guys can read them yourselves. But I will quote some part to make it easier to find out.

http://web.ku.ac.th/king72/2542-05/menu-1.htm

"เรามีโชคดีที่มีภาษาของตนเองแต่โบราณกาล จึงสมควรอย่างยิ่งที่จะรักษาไว้ ปัญหาเฉพาะในด้านรักษาภาษานี้ก็มีหลายประการ อย่างหนึ่งต้องรักษาให้บริสุทธิ์ในทางออกเสียง คือให้ออกเสียงให้ถูกต้องชัดเจน อีกอย่างหนึ่งต้องรักษาให้บริสุทธิ์ในวิธีใช้ หมายความว่าวิธีใช้คำมาประกอบเป็นประโยคนับเป็นปัญหาที่ สำคัญปัญหาที่สามคือความร่ำรวยในคำของภาษาไทยซึ่งพวก เรานึกว่าไม่ร่ำรวยพอ จึงต้องมีการบัญญัติศัพท์ใหม่มาใช้ ที่โต๊ะนี้ก็มี "ศัพท์บัญญัติกร" หลายท่าน นี่ก็จะได้เป็นศัพท์บัญญัติกรไปอีกคนหนึ่ง มีคนเดียวที่ไม่ใช่ คืออาจารย์สุมนชาติ การบัญญัติศัพท์ใหม่ก็เป็นสิ่งสำคัญเหมือนกัน จำเป็น แต่อันตราย ฉะนั้นในปัญหาทั้งสามนี้ วันนี้นึกถึงปัญหาที่สามเป็นใหญ่ แต่ปัญหาเรื่องการออกเสียงนั้นก็อันตรายอย่างยิ่ง นึกถึงคำว่ามหาวิทยาลัย เดี๋ยวนี้ทางโทรทัศน์หรือทางวิทยุได้ยินว่า "หมาวิทยาลัย" กลายเป็น "วิทยาลัยหมา" ออกจะอันตราย ซึ่งเรายอมไม่ได้ บางอย่างเรายอมได้อย่างคำว่า "ฉัน" ที่จริงเขียนว่าฉัน แต่ว่าพูดกัน "ชั้น" ทั้งนั้น ก็เป็นสิ่งที่ต้องยอมไว้บ้าง แต่บางทีก็เกินไปหน่อยกลายเป็นอย่างอื่นในคำว่าฉันนี่ คำว่า "น้าม" เขียนว่า "น้ำ" แต่ออกเสียงว่า "น้าม" นี่เราก็ต้องยอมบ้าง อย่างนี้ไม่เป็นไร "

http://www.thaisnews.com/prdnews/king/tamroy/language.html

'พระราชดำรัส พระบาทสมเด็จพระเจ้าอยู่หัว ในการประชุมทางวิชาการ ชุมนุมภาษาไทย คณะอักษรศาสตร์ จุฬาลงกรณ์มหาวิทยาลัย ณ ห้องประชุมคณะอักษรศาสตร์ วันที่ ๒๙ กรกฎาคม ๒๕๐๕ ทรงแสดงความห่วงใยในภาษาไทย ซึ่งเป็นเอกลักษณ์ของชาติ ที่กำลังจะถูกทำลายหากไม่ช่วยกันรักษา โดยเฉพาะอย่างยิ่งการออกเสียงที่ไม่ถูกต้อง อย่างเช่นคำว่า "ฉัน" ออกเสียงเป็น "ชั้น" คำว่า "น้ำ" คำว่า"น้ำ" ออกเสียงเป็น "น้าม" ส่วนความร่ำรวยในคำของภาษาไทยนั้นมีอยู่มาก มีการบัญญัติศัพท์ใหม่ๆ ขึ้นมาใช้ แล้วก็ไม่ได้ใช้เพราะไม่เข้าใจในความหมาย จึงควรที่จะใช้คำเก่าๆ ที่มีอยู่แล้ว ไม่ควรจะมาตั้งศัพท์ใหม่ให้ยุ่งยาก '

That's why I said I don't think I was wrong in that thread. Thanks everyone.

alright then peoples,

What about these!

how about พายเรือในอ่าง as vicious circle

or I like this one ไปไหนไม่รอด but it is more like "cant avoid it"

Cheers

In The Rai!

[yoot]

Back to this discussion.

Well, I don’t know the meaning of English saying deeply enough to discuss it with you guys.

But for Thai saying, if you want to educate yourself, isn’t it better to know the correct saying than just searching on the net and consider which one got the hits more should be the one you should use?

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน or กงกำกงเกวียน or กงกรรมกงเกวียน are all the same. Thais understand the meaning of this saying but correctly or not that is another issue. It’s because the majority of Thai people are Buddhist, so the word ‘karma’ is always in our mind. For people who are not familiar with cart, we hardly know the name of each part of it, just like me. If I never read or learned about this saying, I would think the same that it should have the word ‘karma’ in this saying. But then again, Karma in Thai words can mean to do and action too. So, you would see if this saying is used in religion teaching, it would use กงกรรมกงเกวียน more than the correct one. But if it's used in other things, it is like a cycle of your doing. As in my source which compare this saying as vicious cycle in English, it might because of the word cycle(วัฏจักร) has a role in it which different to the saying 'what goes around comes around' in some sense in my opinion. Anyway, many sayings in Thai have similar meaning which sometimes they can be used alternatively. So, it's not easy to judge which one is more correct than others. IMO.

This is the explanation from the page in that link;

"สำนวน กงเกวียนกำเกวียน ปรากฏในพจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน อธิบายว่า ใช้เป็นคำอุปมา หมายความว่า เวรสนองเวร กรรมสนองกรรม เช่น ทำแก่เขาอย่างไร เขาก็ทำแก่ตนอย่างนั้นเป็นกงเกวียนกำเกวียน การหมุนเวียนไปตามสภาพ

สำนวนนี้มีที่มาคือ ล้อเกวียน ซึ่งประกอบด้วยส่วนสำคัญ ๓ ส่วน คือ ดุม กำ และกง ดุมเป็นส่วนกลางล้อเกวียนมีรูสำหรับสอดเพลา กำเป็นซี่ล้อ และกงเป็นส่วนรอบของล้อ เรียกรวมทั้งหมดว่ากงเกวียน เมื่อใดที่กงเกวียนหมุนรอบเพลา กำเกวียนก็หมุนตามไป เปรียบเหมือนกับการกระทำว่าทำอย่างไรก็ได้ผลอย่างนั้น ทั้งในด้านบวกและด้านลบ แต่ปัจจุบันมักจะนึกถึงแต่ด้านลบเท่านั้น

สำนวนนี้มีบางคนใช้คลาดเคลื่อนเป็น กงกรรมกงเกวียน เพราะคิดว่า กำ คือ กรรม สำนวนจึงเปลี่ยนไป"

So,

Yoot, is it possible that even though กงเกวียนกำเกวียน is correct, people say กงกำกงเกวียน because กำ is a homophone of กรรม, and that's what it makes them think of?

Yes, it is.

Oh, sorry for not clarifying.

"Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind," I mean in that book it said it's equivalent to Thai saying " ให้ทุกข์แก่ท่าน ทุกข์นั้นถึงตัว." But in some source it said this Thai saying is equivalent to English saying 'what goes around comes around' too.

The book I told is " สนุกกับสุภาษิตคำพังเพย" by นิคม เขาลาด ISBN.974-89626-0-1. There is a set of five books. They might not be the best books but I found it's fun and interesting to read.

[meadish_sweetball]

But for Thai saying, if you want to educate yourself, isn’t it better to know the correct saying than just searching on the net and consider which one got the hits more should be the one you should use?

The way I see it, the google hit factor is just one way among many others. Naturally, common linguistic mistakes also make it into Google, so just relying on the number of hits is not a 100% safe method - it is just an indication.

The phrases I used got such low hit scores that it is rather safe to assume that either expression is not in common use - more commonly used expressions yield higher scores.

These expressions may of course still be technically correct; but to use technically correct language that few people understand, defeats one major purpose of language, which is to communicate with other people.

I am less interested in impressing others than being understood.

Source checking is essential in every way. Everyone, even the oldest and most respected university professors, can be wrong at times. They are less likely to be wrong, because of the time and effort they have put into learning their disciplines, but 'errare humanum est' - To err is human.

The best way to come as close to the truth as possible, is to compare sources and try to come to a conclusion which sources are more believable.

There are (at least) two definitions of "vicious cycle/circle" in English as I understand it.

One pertains to a negative chain of events, which repeats itself and is difficult to escape. Sometimes it is exacerbated with time.

The other definition is circular reasoning, in general. Perhaps it would make sense to separate these two definitions when looking for an equivalent in Thai.

[bannork]

Can anybody help with a direct leteral translation of this phrase if they know it.

"Gon gum gon gwean"

It apparently means "what goes around comes around" and has something to do with The cart wheel turning full circle.

Any ideas ?

Thanks

P

"Gon gum gon gwean" - กงกำกงเกวียน

But the correct phrase for this idiom is กงเกวียนกำเกวียน

กงเกวียน - wheel of a cart.

กำเกวียน - wheel-spoke.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน - a simile indicating the inevitability of cause and effect which equivalent to ' vicious circle' in English.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน gets 177 hits on Google while กงกำกงเกวียน gets 198. You were wrong before about น้ำ, Yoot. Are you sure about this one? In any case, neither expression means "viscious circle" (or "viscious cycle"). The expression simply means "what goes around comes around", and is similar to another Thai saying: ให้ทุกข์แก่ท่าน ทุกข์นั้นถึงตัว.

A Thai saying for "viscious circle" (similar to a catch-22 situation) is difficult to find. It may be close to ไข่เกิดก่อนไก่ หรือ ไก่เกิดก่อนไข่ - "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". However I can't think of any other saying in Thai to better capture this expression. Anyone else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

Edward B,

I agree, viscious circle is วัฏจักรแห่งความชั่วร้าย IMO

In The Rai!

In describing issues such as poverty traps Thais have always used วัฏจักรเเห่งความชั่วร้าย to me but I wasn't aware in English that we described a Catch-22 or chicken and egg situation as a vicious circle I thought the circle idea showed a cause and effect endlessly repeating itself and difficult to escape from whilst in Catch-22 the logic imprisons us. You can only rest from bombing sorties if you are insane but if you apply to rest you are clearly sane!

[meadish_sweetball]

I checked Merriam Webster's Unabridged dictionary:

Main Entry:vicious circle

Function:noun

1 : a chain of circumstances constituting a situation in which the process of solving one difficulty creates a new problem involving increased difficulty in the original situation

2 : an argument or definition that is valueless because it either overtly or covertly assumes as true or as understood something which is to be proved or defined

3 : a chain of abnormal processes in which a primary disorder leads to a second which in turn aggravates the first one *the vicious circle of fatigue-anxiety-fatigue*

So we are dealing with 3 individual meanings here.

Main Entry:vicious

Pronunciation:*vish*s

Function:adjective

Etymology:Middle English, from Middle French vicieus, from Latin vitiosus full of faults, bad, corrupt, from vitium blemish, crime, vice + -osus -ous * more at WITH

[yoot]

After discussing about the meaning of 'vicious circle' with my American friend, I think I should give you guys an example of using the saying กงเกวียนกำเกวียน. So that you can consider it by yourself.

If there was a member of family was killed by a member of another family and then they got revenged by killing one member of the killer's family. After that this cycle had happened to both families, killed revenged and killed... for this situation we can use this saying กงเกวียนกำเกวียน which is different to ให้ทุกข์แก่ท่านทุกข์นั้นถึงตัว. The latter saying is used in another case, such as, if you accused someone for something he didn't do but later that fault you accused him has been pointed out to you instead. It's not a cycle, it's just one cause and one effect.

กงเกวียนกำเกวียน can be used in both bad and good case, but mostly it's used in bad case which I still insist that it's equivalent to 'vicious circle' when it's used in bad case.

I have read on a website, it said "what goes around comes around" is equivalent to Thai saying 'กฎแห่งกรรม". I think this is a better comparison for this saying than กงเกวียนกำเกวียน. IMO.

[yoot]

Here is one that I was reminded of last night while watching the rugby with the wife. I stood up from my comfortable chair and got her and myself a cold refreshing beer beverage. On my return I noticed that she had taken my comfortable chair for herself. I said " but I was getting us a drink"

Her reply was ลุกแล้วเสียม้า meaning you stood up bad luck. There is also this one I have heard before aswell ลุกแล้วลุกเลย meaning well you stood up and left.

They can only be used in reagards to taking someones chair and nothing else I believe.

I would say "you snooze you lose" or something along those lines.

ลุกแล้วเสียม้า or ลุกแล้วลุกเลย is came from playing chess 'รุกเสียม้า', when you check the king and capture the horse at the same time. So, it's used when you leave your chair, you must lose it and you can't take back that move.

[yoot]

how about พายเรือในอ่าง as vicious circle

or I like this one ไปไหนไม่รอด but it is more like "cant avoid it"

พายเรือในอ่าง means to be undecided or to be indecisive. It's like when you have to do or say something you can't finish it and then back to the starting point again, like rowing a boat around the tub, you can go nowhere only around that tab.

ไปไหนไม่รอด is more like 'can't leave it because if you leave you wouldn't be able to survive' than "cant avoid it". For example, a guy wanted to break up with a girl but then he came back to her, the girl might say " ฉันรู้ ยังไงคุณก็ไปไหนไม่รอดหรอก สุดท้ายคุณก็ต้องกลับมาหาฉัน"

[Rikker]

The way I see it, the google hit factor is just one way among many others. Naturally, common linguistic mistakes also make it into Google, so just relying on the number of hits is not a 100% safe method - it is just an indication.

The phrases I used got such low hit scores that it is rather safe to assume that either expression is not in common use - more commonly used expressions yield higher scores.

There's one serious problem with using Google for these sorts of things:

Google requires word boundaries in order to "find" a word or phrase.

So, กงเกวียนกำเกวียน returns results, but if you tried to search กำเกวียนกำ you would get zero hits. Now, obviously, กงเกวียนกำ exists on the internet in every place the full phrase does, but Google isn't designed to search by character.

So when we search for Thai, we're only getting results that are out of the context of a larger sentence, such as headings of a dictionary entry (this is why thai-language.com results are always so high when you search many words, because it has a dedicated, indexable page for each entry).

Either that or they happen to be in context, but have spaces or punctuation around them for one reason or another. Thai will uses spaces mid-phrase to set apart proper nouns, words in a foreign language, words in quotes, etc.

PDF files are an exception. The way Google indexes them, it searches every character, but it also sometimes indexes spaces wrong (or ignores spaces?). Yoo can test this yourself: take a phrase and remove a space where it normally go and Google it.

For example, search for ประกาศ ณ and then search for ประกาศณ. The second one will return exclusively PDF results, because of the way they get indexed. Also search an impossible spelling like ายงาน, and you'll get exclusively PDF results, because of indexing issues.

I like the corpora on thai.sealang.net, because they actually search character by character. กงกรรมกงเกวียน and กงกรรมกง return the same results.

I wonder if Google knows about this and is willing to do anything about it?

[meadish_sweetball]

Very good points actually. I have noticed that the results come up with spaces, but did not know how the search function works in-depth.

Would be great if Google could have a look into this.

[In the Rai!]

Here is 1 that I like...

เล่นกับไฟ.......ไฟจะไหม้ตัว

len gub fai ...... fai ja mai doowa

"If you play with fire, you will get burnt"

In The Rai!

[In the Rai!]

cheers

ITR

[In the Rai!]

cheers

ITR

sorry I forgot to post anything.... oops

ตั้งอกตั้งใจทำงานกันหน่อยนะวันนี้ To keep your nose to the grindstone

Would be the best English saying I think?. Although using chest and heart instead.

I know this is what a หัวหน้า says but I was wondering if you could use it somehow with playing sport .

I would use ตั้งใจที่จะเอาชนะ........ as with sport but I wonder if there is a saying in Thai like "give it everything you got".

ITR

Edited November 20, 2006 by In the Rai!

[Edward B]

เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่ว ต้องหลิ่วตาตาม (or เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่ว ให้หลิ่วตาตาม)

This is difficult to translate literally, so any help is appreciated.

(When) entering a city (of people who) ตาหลิ่ว, (you) too must ตาหลิ่ว.

In other words, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". ... (or "To go with the tide").

Neeranam should know this one.

The dictionary says ตาหลิ่ว means to close one eye, or squint the eyes. A friend I asked said it means to make a signal with the eye.

[Edward B]

I would use ตั้งใจที่จะเอาชนะ........ as with sport but I wonder if there is a saying in Thai like "give it everything you got".

How about: สู้ต่อไป คนสู้ชีวิต

[bannork]

-->

QUOTE(Edward B @ 2006-11-23 09:52:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่ว ต้องหลิ่วตาตาม (or เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่ว ให้หลิ่วตาตาม)

This is difficult to translate literally, so any help is appreciated.

(When) entering a city (of people who) ตาหลิ่ว, (you) too must ตาหลิ่ว.

In other words, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". ... (or "To go with the tide").

Neeranam should know this one.

The dictionary says ตาหลิ่ว means to close one eye, or squint the eyes. A friend I asked said it means to make a signal with the eye.

I thought it meant 'wink' but I could be wrong.

In the news today were a couple of idioms with opposite meanings.

ทำงานหนักตัวเป็นเกลียว to work hard

เป็นเหลือบสังคม literally a horse-fly of society, ie a parasite of society.

And our old friend เจ้าโลก was back in the news in a horrifying way. A monk in Phattalung was determined to reach a high level of meditation but to his consternation he always got a 'happy jack' when meditating,so he cut off the ruler of the world!

Rushed to hospital, he refused to let the offending member be reattached, fearing further distractions, just staunching of the bleeding!

Ouch!

[baennaenae]

5555 + learning languages is fun. Keep it up keep it up !