Thai Sayings and Phrases Wanted

[Rikker]

statemen, it seems your interpretation is at odds with the meaning of the idiom.

Here's a typical Thai interpretation of the meaning:

ประพฤติตนให้เหมาะสมกับกาลเทศะ

Which translates to:

"Behave appropriately to the time and place."

This site has the following poem (which I've put parentheses around) to explain the idiom:

๖๑.เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่วต้องหลิ่วตาตาม

ประพฤติตนให้เหมาะสมกับกาลเทศะ

เข้าเมือง (รวมพวกพ้องชนใด)

ตาหลิ่ว (วัฒนธรรมในหมู่นั้น)

ต้องหลิ่ว (ประพฤติวิสัยเขาเยี่ยงอย่างนา)

ตาตาม (ผองชนชั้นอยู่ได้สุขเสมอ)

The poem explains line by line how to interpret it. In this case, ตาหลิ่ว is interpreted as "the culture of that area."

So it seems pretty clear that ตาหลิ่ว in this case is a metaphor for "whatever the people in place X do."

You have made a case for the ambiguity of the phrase, but it seems like--to borrow your own example--you're choosing the "fish hanging in the breeze" option, of the two possibilities here. Is there something specifically that makes you confident about your interpretation? Some etymological evidence?

Edited July 13, 2007 by Rikker

[stateman]

So it seems pretty clear that ตาหลิ่ว in this case is a metaphor for "whatever the people in place X do."

In my reply to mangkorn I stated:

"I agree with your point that this saying was probably a Thai version of "When in Rome,....", although I didn't take time to verify its source. It indeed is the most likely version!" - I thought that was as clear as it gets. I am agreeable with your posting, as well as mangkorn's.

For those educated readers who are familiar with the English proverb "When in Rome ...", it is the natural interpretation to associate the two. That is why the four college grads whom mangkorn asked all interpreted the saying that way, so does the site you quoted (http://www.st.ac.th/bhatips/klong_42.html).

As this thread is about discussing Thai, I tried to point out that the words used have multiple meanings, and that literally the phrase could also have been interpreted the other way by some people - whether you agree with or whether it makes sense to you or not. It is the way the language is. Some Thais who are not well educated and never know the English proverb "When in Rome ...", may interpreted the phrase that way. And yes, you can spend hours arguing with him trying to tell him that it should be interpreted your way!

Can we now move on from this subject?

On the other language quirk which I cited about the word คากลม, it is not always to be interpreted as ตา-กลม either. It too can indeed be interpreted the other way as well - though not in the case of the fish. Say in a different situation where someone wrote: คุณแป๋วนั่งตากลม. I'd probably ask the person to clarify whether he means คุณแป๋วนั่งตา-กลม (especially if she has round eyes) or คุณแป๋วนั่งตาก-ลม as she is sitting there taking the breeze.

Another well known quirk is a fun one. Many times a guy would intentionally use this on a teenage girl. It is: ไม่ได้เจอกันตั้งนานนมโตขึ้ันตั้งเยอะ

This is a play of the words นานนมโต to either mean นานนม-โต or นาน-นมโต.

นานนม-โต in this case means: Haven't met you for a long time, you grow (up) a lot.

นาน-นมโต in this case means: Haven't met you for a long time, your boobs grow (in size) a lot!

Word of caution, your can get hurt if you use this on the wrong person! :-)

Cheers!

[Rikker]

Stateman,

I see what you were getting at, now. Of course, you're perfectly right that the possibility for another interpretation is there. It seemed, I guess, that you were trying to claim that the "old man Liu" interpretation was the common one. Folk etymology and creating one's own understanding of words and phrases is common in any language, and the polysemous nature of so many Thai words only adds to that. Like, the "slang" phrase ชิลชิล (pronounced and often written ชิวชิว), coming from "chill chill" สบายๆ or similar to English "cool," as I hear it used, has been reinterpreted by some as coming from "child child," and is thus used by them to mean เด็กๆ, which would be a folk etymology, assuming that "chill chill" is the original source of the expression.

Good discussion, though--overanalyzing things is part of the fun.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Rikker

[mangkorn]

Just want to clarify that I wasn't being elitist in my example. I just assumed that liberal arts' grads might be more likely to have analyzed things like that. I believe that the average chaao naa understands the proverb in the same way, but may have never given it too much thought, just as most Westerners have never really analyzed their own languages and sayings to the point of being able to explain them with ease. In fact, there is an assistant in my office who is a Thai-Chinese from Bangkok, with that concomitant superiority complex, but he can't explain a damned thing whenever I ask him about words and phrases. So, it's not even an urban vs. rural thing when it comes to analyzing language. Some people are more interested in it than others (e.g., we obsessive geeks on this forum). Cheers.

[mangkorn]

Minor quibble (apologies), re: "...Some Thais who are not well educated and never know the English proverb "When in Rome ...", may interpreted the phrase that way."

I don't think the English proverb has anything to do with the Thai one (except in the minds of those who see the coincidence). I believe it is just coincidental, as it is a universal idea, and I suspect that many, many cultures have developed their own parallel adage indigenously. And that is why proverbs and adages are so much fun, because they do translate across cultures.

Okay, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, as they say... I'll stop now. Cheers.

[stateman]

Stateman,

I see what you were getting at, now. Of course, you're perfectly right that the possibility for another interpretation is there. It seemed, I guess, that you were trying to claim that the "old man Liu" interpretation was the common one. Folk etymology and creating one's own understanding of words and phrases is common in any language, and the polysemous nature of so many Thai words only adds to that.

Good discussion, though--overanalyzing things is part of the fun.

Just want to clarify that I wasn't being elitist in my example. I just assumed that liberal arts' grads might be more likely to have analyzed things like that. I believe that the average chaao naa understands the proverb in the same way, but may have never given it too much thought, just as most Westerners have never really analyzed their own languages and sayings to the point of being able to explain them with ease.

Some people are more interested in it than others (e.g., we obsessive geeks on this forum). Cheers.

Rikker: I agree. I feel the Thai language is very rich and lends itself very well to poetry and play of words, taking advantage of the polysemous nature as you mentioned. In this case I imagine the author was quite proud of himself playing with words as he did. I know I would too if I could come up with this saying!

mangkorn: Don't worry about the elitist thing. :-) It is all good for the discussion in this thread.

I also agree with you that an "average chaao naa" does "get it" without much thought of all the analysis done in this thread. I believe he knows to conform as appropriate.

Cheers.

[Pundi64]

Here is a very good site, with sound, and much more

www.thai-language.com

[mangkorn]

Anybody know the proper Thai idiom for "flogging a dead horse"?

There must be one, or more.

[bannork]

สีฃอให้ควายฟัง - play the violin to the buffaloes, wasting one's time, talking to a brickwall, banging your head against a brickwall. Though flogging a dead horse may suggest more of a long term effort.

Does anyone know the Thai idiom for - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

[DavidHouston]

สีฃอให้ควายฟัง - play the violin to the buffaloes, wasting one's time, talking to a brickwall, banging your head against a brickwall. Though flogging a dead horse may suggest more of a long term effort.

Does anyone know the Thai idiom for - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

I have seen this is papers recently:

"หัวชนฝา (hŭa chon făa ) [ADV] stubbornly; obstinately; uncompromisingly", lit. "to hit ones head against the wall"

Syn. หัวชนกำแพง (hŭa chon kam paeng ) to the same effect

The first "wall" is the wall of a house; the second, a outside wall.

The horse and water saying is someone else being stubborn; hitting one's head against a wall is said about oneself, no?

[yoot]

Anybody know the proper Thai idiom for "flogging a dead horse"?

There must be one, or more.

For this English saying, I would simply say in Thai as "ความพยายามที่สูญเปล่า" (Wasting energy on a lost cause or unalterable situation)

[yoot]

Does anyone know the Thai idiom for - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

I can't think of any Thai saying has the same meaning as this English idiom.

However, I have read on one website, they suggest this idiom should equal to Thai saying "ข่มเขาโคขืนให้กินหญ้า". But I'm not convinced though. This Thai saying mean "to force the other to do one's desire." So, dicision is yours.

[mangkorn]

Does anyone know the Thai idiom for - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

I can't think of any Thai saying has the same meaning as this English idiom.

However, I have read on one website, they suggest this idiom should equal to Thai saying "ข่มเขาโคขืนให้กินหญ้า". But I'm not convinced though. This Thai saying mean "to force the other to do one's desire." So, dicision is yours.

I agree the two expressions are very different: the Thai phrase means "to force someone to do one's bidding," but the English idiom means that "you can't force someone to do something they don't want to do." Not the same thing, surely.

[DavidHouston]

From today's newspaper: ". . . [บริษัท ]ได้ปิดกิจการ ลอยแพคนงานเกือบ 200 คน"

[ bor-rí-sàt ] dâai bpìt gìt gaan loi pâe kon ngaan gèuap 200 kon

"The company has ceased operations resulting in a lay off of almost 200 employees."

The term ลอยแพ has a figurative meaning, "lay off; abandon; dismiss; sack" as well as the literal meaning, "ลอยแพ [loi pâe] [V] be adrift on a raft; float on a raft; fig. to set adrift" [both from Lexitron]

English, interestingly, uses the same metaphor. We could easily say, "the company has set about 200 employees adrift [to seek new employment]."

One good metaphor deserves to be repeated.

Edited September 22, 2007 by DavidHouston

[midasthailand]

Hi guys and gals, I read the first eight pages of this thread and then jumped to the end, so I am not sure if these have been mentioned here before.

(Sorry unable to write in Thai font at this stage, not technically minded enough).

1. Mia taharn nap khuat bhlaow, mia damruat nap satang. = soldiers wives count empty bottles, policemens wives count money. = no real equivalent in English

2. wela khao muang dta liew dtong liew dta dtam = when you enter a villiage where the people wink you must also wink = when in Rome do as the Romans do.

This site has some real Thai scholars, and it is a great pleasure to watch the battles of wits that often seem to erupt over seemingly innocuous differences in interpretaion. Keep it up guys.

Thanks, Dave

[mangkorn]

That's a good one about the soldiers and the cops. Nice addition.

As for the second one, we had a rousing discussion of that which might amuse you, on this page and the preceding one. (Also, I've never heard it with "wela" at the beginning: the idea of "when" is understood, not spoken; it would also mess up the rythym of the idiom).

Cheers.

[yoot]

Hi guys and gals, I read the first eight pages of this thread and then jumped to the end, so I am not sure if these have been mentioned here before.

(Sorry unable to write in Thai font at this stage, not technically minded enough).

1. Mia taharn nap khuat bhlaow, mia damruat nap satang. = soldiers wives count empty bottles, policemens wives count money. = no real equivalent in English

2. wela khao muang dta liew dtong liew dta dtam = when you enter a villiage where the people wink you must also wink = when in Rome do as the Romans do.

This site has some real Thai scholars, and it is a great pleasure to watch the battles of wits that often seem to erupt over seemingly innocuous differences in interpretaion. Keep it up guys.

Thanks, Dave

The correct saying are;

1. เป็นเมียทหารนับขวด เป็นเมียตำรวจนับแบงค์

2. เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่ว ต้องหลิ่วตาตาม

[DavidHouston]

From this week's Matichon Weekend comes the following phrase: "ปลาร้าเก่าในไหใหม่" [bplaa ráa gào nai hăi mài] "The same old smelly fish in a new jar". The reference is to the merger of three pre-existing parties into a new party, but with the same old party leaders.

[YangYaiEric]

Anyone esle know any thai sayings and their meanings?

Hi again Random Chances.

It seems to be slipping into a coma so I'll try to resuscitate this wonderful thread with a little idiomatic CPR!

Here's another batch of Thai sayings!

1.ขอแรงหน่อย=ko raeng noi=Give me a hand please.

2.ช่างมัน=chahng man=Let it be./Leave it like it is./Don't disturb.

3.ชั่งหัวมัน=chang hua man=Never mind./Don't worry./Doesn't matter.

4.ยิ่งเร็วยิ่งดี=ying reow ying dee=The sooner the better.

5.คอยด้วยความตั้งใจ=koy doo-ay kwam dtang jai=Look forward to it.

6.ยิงที่เดียวได้นกสองตัว=ying tee dee-oh dai nok sorng dtoa=Kill two birds with only one stone.

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

What about this one:

'Gin pur yuu. Mai-chia yuu pur gin!' (Eat to live.Dont live to eat! )

[DavidHouston]

I don't know whether to put this in the newspaper section or in the sayings section. However, since the newspaper section stresses headlines, I opt for the latter. Here is a sentence from a Matichon Weekend article regarding the widening gap between rich and poor.

"พอเริ่มคิดแล้วก็คิดเลยไปถึงว่า ต้องไม่ใช่รวยปกติแน่ๆ จะต้องมีเบื้องหน้าเบื้องหลัง มีนอกมีใน ใช้เส้นใช้สาย ทำไม่ถูกกฎหมาย ทำผิดศีลธรรม"

"Once [the poor] start thinking [about their situation] they thin, '[the well-to-do] are surely not rich through normal means, they must have some inside help; there must be some inside-outs; they must be pulling some strings. They are not acting in accord with the law; [they must be] acting unethically."

This sentence contains three consecutive metaphors:

เบื้องหน้าเบื้องหลัง [N] background; inside story (Lexitron)

มีนอกมีใน - to have a secret interest; to have something going on (Domnern-Sathienpong)

ใช้เส้นใช้สาย Icannot find this in my dictionaries but it appears to be equivalent to "are able to pull some strings."

Any thoughts about these phrases?

[johnnyk]

What is "Man Kiao" (sounds like that to me)? My friend says that to her 4 yr old son and to me also.

[DavidHouston]

What is "Man Kiao" (sounds like that to me)? My friend says that to her 4 yr old son and to me also.

This topic was discussed before in this forum. See http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90328

[DavidHouston]

What is "Man Kiao" (sounds like that to me)? My friend says that to her 4 yr old son and to me also.

This topic was discussed before in ThaiVisa; I found this reference in Google. See http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90328

The Matichon dictionary says, "มันเขี้ยว - รู้สึกอยากล้อเล่นแรงๆ ให้้สะใจ", "a feeling of wanting to tease [someone] until one is satisfied." Presumably, the teaser, not the teasee, is the one whose satisfaction is the objective.

เขี้ยว means "fang; canine tooth"

I agree with the original poster in the referenced site; this is like the English saying about something cute: "I could just eat you up,"; no doubt, an atavistic emotion referencing canabalism or burnt offerings.

Edited October 6, 2007 by DavidHouston

[mangkorn]

What is "Man Kiao" (sounds like that to me)? My friend says that to her 4 yr old son and to me also.

This topic was discussed before in ThaiVisa; I found this reference in Google. See http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90328

The Matichon dictionary says, "มันเขี้ยว - รู้สึกอยากล้อเล่นแรงๆ ให้้สะใจ", "a feeling of wanting to tease [someone] until one is satisfied." Presumably, the teaser, not the teasee, is the one whose satisfaction is the objective.

เขี้ยว means "fang; canine tooth"

I agree with the original poster in the referenced site; this is like the English saying about something cute: "I could just eat you up,"; no doubt, an atavistic emotion referencing canabalism or burnt offerings.

Interesting that เขี้ยว means "tooth" and เคี้ยว means "to chew." Any etymological connection there?

[stateman]

Hi Bannork,long time no see!

Yes!The literal meaning is indeed the liver of a fowl!

That's what I was alluding to as the other meaning in my previous post and was going to disclose later when somebody had gotten curious enough to ask.

You did the work for me there with your pre-emptive strike,Bannork!

The idiomatic meaning of ตัดกึ่น "dtut geun" is "bobbittry" here in the metropolis!

Is it the same up in "your neck of the woods'?

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

I hope no one already address the point below. The thread is getting long and I won't try to read every posting to check it. If this is repetitive, I apologize.

If it makes any difference, it is "gizzard", rather than "liver".

Gizzard is the part of the fowl which grind the hard stuff the fowl eat. So often it is used as

เขามีกึ๋น to mean "He has guts", as being brave to stand up against something bad, or against the authoritative power.

However, the "gut" is not that used in the sense of "This is my gut feeling".

[yoot]

Gizzard is the part of the fowl which grind the hard stuff the fowl eat. So often it is used as

เขามีกึ๋น to mean "He has guts", as being brave to stand up against something bad, or against the authoritative power.

However, the "gut" is not that used in the sense of "This is my gut feeling".

I often saw it was translated from he has guts to Thai as เขามีกึ๋น in movie scripts but for Thai people we use this word in the meaning of brain, thought, intelligence, intellect, wit.

คนอะไรไม่มีกึ๋นเอาเสียเลย - what a stupid person!

นางสาวไทยปีนี้สวยแบบมีกึ๋น - Miss Thailand this year is beautiful and smart.

Try to google this word, you will see most of them used in these meanings.

Edited November 2, 2007 by yoot

[bannork]

I liked this phrase meaning to get a good profit for a small investment, the writer was talking about Thaksin bringing over the Man City coach and how he should reap considerable benefit from it.

เเบบกุ้งฝอยตกปลากะพง

[DavidHouston]

Hey, Bannork,

The metaphor below comes from that prolific and extrodinary writer in Thai, Michael Wright, who pens a weekly article for Matichon entitled "ฝรั่งมองไทย", "A Foreigner's Perspective on Thailand". Here is an excerpt from his last article (parenthetical material has been removed for simplicity as noted by the elipses). The article may be found at Matichon Weekly, ฉบับวันที่ วันที่ 09 พฤศจิกายน พ.ศ. 2550 ปีที่ 28 ฉบับที่ 1421, หน้า 67 :

. . . ชาวชนบทและคนกรรมาชีพ . . . ไม่ได้เป็น "คนเลว" หรือ "ปัญญาอ่อน" หากอยู่กันกระจัดกระจายจึงจัดตั้งกันได้เฉพาะในระดับเครือญาติและหมู่บ้าน . . . เมื่อเจอะกับประชาธิปไตย . . . จึงย่อมไขว้เขวและอาจจะหลงเสน่ห์เสือสิงห์กระทิงแรดได้ง่าย

" . . . Rural people and the proletariat are not “bad people” or are “mentally handicapped”. Rather, they may live in scattered groups and organize themselves only at the level of their extended families and their villages. When confronted by democracy they become confused and are subject to being bamboozled by the wiles of con artists and flimflam men."

The cool new phrase for me is "เสือสิงห์กระทิงแรด" which seems to mean literally "tigers, lions, bulls, and rhinoceroses." I found the definition only in Donmern-Sathienpong and the Matichon dictionary. The latter defines the phrases as, "บรรดาคนมีเล่ห์เลียมร้ายย. . ." "the kinds of people who have evil tricks and wiles."

Does anyone have an idea of how this phrase originated?

[bannork]

I'm not sure about the origin but those animals are used in the idiom as they're considered to be aggressive, dangerous, fierce, like the humans they're referring to in idiomatic use. I think it's meaning in the passage could mean mafia type people,namely, tricky, cheating but also thuggish. Yoot's opinion would be useful.

[yoot]

As for "เสือสิงห์กระทิงแรด", it doesn't give only bad connotation. It can be used in good connotation too.

The original of this saying is probably from the outstanding character of them:

Tiger - always eat fresh and clean food which compare to people as don't be a cheater.

Lion - has the personality of being leader.

Bull - a great fighter.

Rhinoceros - tough and don't be easily discourage.

But when it's used as a saying, it means a group of people who are master of something or having more experience than others, depends on who we are talking about.

For examples;

In a competition, the good ones would be called as "เสือสิงห์กระทิงแรด".

In a firm, the ones who have more experience would be called "เสือสิงห์กระทิงแรด".

From David's example, "เมื่อเจอะกับประชาธิปไตย . . . จึงย่อมไขว้เขวและอาจจะหลงเสน่ห์เสือสิงห์กระทิงแรดได้ง่าย"

It means when those people confronted by democracy they are probably distracted and easy to believe those experienced politicians (who knows how to influence those people to vote for them).