Duplo Nationality

[kamluan]

Always lived in europe,

raised since the age of 10 days,adopted by an europian family.

at age of 30 went back to thailand,entered whit an europian passport,and a 1-year non immigrant o visa, provided by the ambassy in my homecountry.

After a few months in Thailand i sucseeded in getting a Thai id,and a Thai passpoort.

But in my europian passpoort i have an overstay of almost 2 years,,,,i know the fine 20.000 can not get higher...but isn't there a way to avoid that as i am a Thai citizen,

or i get finned same same?

[lopburi3]

You get fined same same.

[CharlieH]

Dont see how you can overstay if you have been given Thai Nationality? next time you leave Thailand leave on your Thai passport, enter the other homecountry with the other passport and vice versa and there shouldnt be a problem.

[Soutpeel]

Dont see how you can overstay if you have been given Thai Nationality? next time you leave the country leave on your Thai passport, enter the other homecountry with the other passport and vice versa and there shouldnt be a problem.

Well in terms of Thai law you can, as technically you are not in Thailand as a Thai citizen if you are on the other passport, even though you are a Thai citizen.... ....yes its wrong and its discrimination, as right of abode/right to be resident in a country has f*kc all to do with which passport you are using if you are a dual national, you are still a citizen of that country, this rule somehow implies that a dual national Thai citizen is somewhat less of a Thai "citizen" because they have used another passport..

[Mario2008]

Immigration will fine you, the question is if a Thai judge will agree with immigration if you refuse to pay and go to court. But that might in the end cost more because of lawyer fees.

[IMA_FARANG]

Interesting question.

I have no idea what the immigration will decide when you leave.

For one thing, you are leaving on a Thai passport which I assume shows no evidence of you ever entering the country? In that case immigration may have no record of anyone with a Thai name entering the country on your Thai passport...because you entered on your European passport.

On the other hand there will be record of you entering on your European passport...and never leaving.

Whether the immigtaion computer records are good enough to find that information or not, I just don't know.

When you leave they MAY just assume you are Thai, and since they have no record of you entering on a Thai passport, you may just be allowed to leave without paying anything.

OR you MAY be caught if they can cross-reference the records with your European passport and you Thai passport.

I simply don't know the answer to that.

However, when you do leave I would be prepared to pay the overstay fine if you are caught.

That way you cover yourself wehatever happens.

[kamluan]

Dont see how you can overstay if you have been given Thai Nationality? next time you leave the country leave on your Thai passport, enter the other homecountry with the other passport and vice versa and there shouldnt be a problem.

Well in terms of Thai law you can, as technically you are not in Thailand as a Thai citizen if you are on the other passport, even though you are a Thai citizen.... ....yes its wrong and its discrimination, as right of abode/right to be resident in a country has f*kc all to do with which passport you are using if you are a dual national, you are still a citizen of that country, this rule somehow implies that a dual national Thai citizen is somewhat less of a Thai "citizen" because they have used another passport..

i tried to go to the neighbours countries whit my europian passpoort....but when i got at the border,they turned their faces as soon asi showed my 2 passpoorts...could do it.

any solutions...or i do i need to start saving the 20.000 if i want to go outside the kingdom.

I think if i fly whit my thai passpoort , at the airport there should ring a bell, as for what i know is that the 2 passpoorts are connected to eachother in the database..not sure,but did left a copy of my foreign passpoord,this whas required.

I am living fine here,alwasy carry my aThai id,but i whas just thinking what if i need to travel outside...

[Soutpeel]

Dont see how you can overstay if you have been given Thai Nationality? next time you leave the country leave on your Thai passport, enter the other homecountry with the other passport and vice versa and there shouldnt be a problem.

Well in terms of Thai law you can, as technically you are not in Thailand as a Thai citizen if you are on the other passport, even though you are a Thai citizen.... ....yes its wrong and its discrimination, as right of abode/right to be resident in a country has f*kc all to do with which passport you are using if you are a dual national, you are still a citizen of that country, this rule somehow implies that a dual national Thai citizen is somewhat less of a Thai "citizen" because they have used another passport..

i tried to go to the neighbours countries whit my europian passpoort....but when i got at the border,they turned their faces as soon asi showed my 2 passpoorts...could do it.

any solutions...or i do i need to start saving the 20.000 if i want to go outside the kingdom.

I think if i fly whit my thai passpoort , at the airport there should ring a bell, as for what i know is that the 2 passpoorts are connected to eachother in the database..not sure,but did left a copy of my foreign passpoord,this whas required.

I am living fine here,alwasy carry my aThai id,but i whas just thinking what if i need to travel outside...

Under the current "rules" you would be paying the fine, but if you are prepared to take it to a Thai court you could get the fine over turned, in "theroy" they should not be able to fine you as you are a Thai citizen as you cant be on a overstay in a country you are a citizen of and have right of abode, but this is for a court to decide.

I would think you could fly out of Thailand with your Thai passport without problem and return, but your "overstay" on your other passport is not going away, so you need to get it resolved as well, so the most practical way would be to depart on your "other" passport pay the fine and come back in on your Thai PP.

This sort of thing as regards dual nationality is not just a problem in Thailand, Being a dual national myself (not Thai) have run into a similar problem before as was told it was law in my "other" country to travel in on their passport, after reading the applicable laws, found no such law existed, the issue was with immigration themselves as they were confusing "right of abode/ to remain" as a citizen in a particular country and the passport being used, which is not the same thing, after pointing this out to them, they came up with a rather elegant solution....I get stamped in the country on my "other" passport as a permanant resident...

[samran]

There have been a few threads recently similar to yours. The basic ending is you'll have to pay the 20000 fine at the airport, depart on the EU passport and return on the Thai PP. Easy flight to Singapore and back. This trick can't be replicated at land borders.

[jamescollister]

There have been a few threads recently similar to yours. The basic ending is you'll have to pay the 20000 fine at the airport, depart on the EU passport and return on the Thai PP. Easy flight to Singapore and back. This trick can't be replicated at land borders.

Think you would have to be a bit careful in doing that, as if you leave on a Euro passport his Thai PP will not show he has ever left Thailand. Had the same problem with one of the kids. Can't fine a minor, but still had problems. In the end the boss man had to come down and fix the data on the computer. Jim

[Maestro]

If your Thai passport shows you as born in Thailand I see a way to avoid the overstay fine. Leave Thailand with your Thai passport and never travel to Thailand again for the rest of your life.

[samran]

There have been a few threads recently similar to yours. The basic ending is you'll have to pay the 20000 fine at the airport, depart on the EU passport and return on the Thai PP. Easy flight to Singapore and back. This trick can't be replicated at land borders.

Think you would have to be a bit careful in doing that, as if you leave on a Euro passport his Thai PP will not show he has ever left Thailand. Had the same problem with one of the kids. Can't fine a minor, but still had problems. In the end the boss man had to come down and fix the data on the computer. Jim

No, not really. What about the situation of someone who left Thailand when they were a kid, and doesn't come back on their Thai passport till they were 30?

That is what my sister did. Came back on a blank new Thai passport from the UK - so no exit stamp from Thailand given she had left in 1981.

Stamped in at BKK airport no questions asked.

A Thai citizen has the right to enter Thailand, regardless of if they have an exit stamp in their passport or not.

[Maestro]

...if you leave on a Euro passport his Thai PP will not show he has ever left Thailand. Had the same problem with one of the kids. Can't fine a minor, but still had problems. In the end the boss man had to come down and fix the data on the computer. Jim

Ideally, one should get the data on the immigration computer fixed immediately after getting the Thai passport, ie get the stay in Thailand as a foreigner recorded as terminated with reference to the issuance of the Thai passport, with a corresponding note entered by immigration in the foreign passport.

[bapak]

...if you leave on a Euro passport his Thai PP will not show he has ever left Thailand. Had the same problem with one of the kids. Can't fine a minor, but still had problems. In the end the boss man had to come down and fix the data on the computer. Jim

Ideally, one should get the data on the immigration computer fixed immediately after getting the Thai passport, ie get the stay in Thailand as a foreigner recorded as terminated with reference to the issuance of the Thai passport, with a corresponding note entered by immigration in the foreign passport.

Spot on, Maestro.

We know a Thai lady that left Thailand on her Thai passport. Subsequently, was naturalised in USA. Return to Thailand this year and made the mistake of entering on her US passport. My wife persuaded her to visit local immigration and tell her sad story. All was resolved in her favour during the immigration visit.

[kamluan]

If your Thai passport shows you as born in Thailand I see a way to avoid the overstay fine. Leave Thailand with your Thai passport and never travel to Thailand again for the rest of your life.

i thought moderaters were smarter then that...

[jamescollister]

There have been a few threads recently similar to yours. The basic ending is you'll have to pay the 20000 fine at the airport, depart on the EU passport and return on the Thai PP. Easy flight to Singapore and back. This trick can't be replicated at land borders.

Think you would have to be a bit careful in doing that, as if you leave on a Euro passport his Thai PP will not show he has ever left Thailand. Had the same problem with one of the kids. Can't fine a minor, but still had problems. In the end the boss man had to come down and fix the data on the computer. Jim

No, not really. What about the situation of someone who left Thailand when they were a kid, and doesn't come back on their Thai passport till they were 30?

That is what my sister did. Came back on a blank new Thai passport from the UK - so no exit stamp from Thailand given she had left in 1981.

Stamped in at BKK airport no questions asked.

A Thai citizen has the right to enter Thailand, regardless of if they have an exit stamp in their passport or not.

Bit different, in our case child born in OZ, Thai passport issued in Thailand. If she left on the Thai PP no problem, but she will be on overstay in her OZ passport. If the Thai PP was issued in OZ there is no exit visa and she can enter Thailand on it. The passport has the place of issue in it. As I said we just got an immigration officer with enough rank and he updated the computer, after which we have never had a problem> Jim

[samran]

There have been a few threads recently similar to yours. The basic ending is you'll have to pay the 20000 fine at the airport, depart on the EU passport and return on the Thai PP. Easy flight to Singapore and back. This trick can't be replicated at land borders.

Think you would have to be a bit careful in doing that, as if you leave on a Euro passport his Thai PP will not show he has ever left Thailand. Had the same problem with one of the kids. Can't fine a minor, but still had problems. In the end the boss man had to come down and fix the data on the computer. Jim

No, not really. What about the situation of someone who left Thailand when they were a kid, and doesn't come back on their Thai passport till they were 30?

That is what my sister did. Came back on a blank new Thai passport from the UK - so no exit stamp from Thailand given she had left in 1981.

Stamped in at BKK airport no questions asked.

A Thai citizen has the right to enter Thailand, regardless of if they have an exit stamp in their passport or not.

Bit different, in our case child born in OZ, Thai passport issued in Thailand. If she left on the Thai PP no problem, but she will be on overstay in her OZ passport. If the Thai PP was issued in OZ there is no exit visa and she can enter Thailand on it. The passport has the place of issue in it. As I said we just got an immigration officer with enough rank and he updated the computer, after which we have never had a problem> Jim

There was a double entry in the computer and these days the computers are picking up if you enter on one passport and then try and exit on another. Main rule of thumb, you enter on that passport, you depart on it.

In terms of Thai passports, they are all issued in Thailand, they are just sent to the relevant embassy where they are applied for. I recently got a new Thai passport issued in Melbourne. No different to the one I would have had issued if I applied for it in Thailand.

[jamescollister]

samran Don't think you are following what I am saying. or what the OP was asking. Yes rule of thumb leave on the passport you arrive on, but if you arrive on a non Thai passport and then get a Thai PP in Thailand, if you leave on your non Thai passport you will not have a valid departure in the Thai PP. If you leave on your Thai PP you are on overstay on your non Thai PP. It has to be that way or people would post passports to others. Think of it this way, if you arrive in Thailand on an OZ passport and then try and leave on a UK passport that has never had you enter in the first place, questions will be asked. Same as if you are issued a Thai PP [ in our case Ubon ] leave on an OZ passport. When you re enter Thailand your Thai PP will show you never left in the first place. Anyway the OPs best bet is go to immigration say sorry and can they help.

Place of issue is now in coded in the chip in the PP, if you look at an older Thai PP it will have the issuing office. IE BKK, Ubon etc or Canberra in your case. Jim

[TerryLH]

"Don't think you are following what I am saying. or what the OP was asking. Yes rule of thumb leave on the passport you arrive on, but if you arrive on a non Thai passport and then get a Thai PP in Thailand, if you leave on your non Thai passport you will not have a valid departure in the Thai PP."

That doesn't matter. It's easily explained by showing the PP with the exit stamp. It's not like immigration officers haven't seen that scenario before.

If there is a problem, ask to speak to a supervisor.

[kamluan]

well going to the immigration isn not an option at the moment....i am in pattaya and showing an overstay for more then just a few days ,probely would cost me some money...or a day in jail...and i can't miss the 20.000 at the moment...

i just leave it as it is,and will ask a lawyer.

thanks anyway.

[samran]

samran Don't think you are following what I am saying. or what the OP was asking. Yes rule of thumb leave on the passport you arrive on, but if you arrive on a non Thai passport and then get a Thai PP in Thailand, if you leave on your non Thai passport you will not have a valid departure in the Thai PP. If you leave on your Thai PP you are on overstay on your non Thai PP. It has to be that way or people would post passports to others. Think of it this way, if you arrive in Thailand on an OZ passport and then try and leave on a UK passport that has never had you enter in the first place, questions will be asked. Same as if you are issued a Thai PP [ in our case Ubon ] leave on an OZ passport. When you re enter Thailand your Thai PP will show you never left in the first place. Anyway the OPs best bet is go to immigration say sorry and can they help.

Place of issue is now in coded in the chip in the PP, if you look at an older Thai PP it will have the issuing office. IE BKK, Ubon etc or Canberra in your case. Jim

I do have a good idea what I'm talking about. I'm a Thai/OZ dual national who has been using my Thai passport since about 1992.

It is easier to think about the situation this way, from the Thai immigration computer's standpoint.

Your daughters situation

- your daughter was born in Australia. She is a Thai Australian dual citizen.

- The Australian citizen version of your daughter entered Thailand, and is still here. The Thai citizen version of your daughter is still outside of Thailand.

- When your daughter leaves, she leaves on her OZ passport to complete her stay.

- When she returns, the Thai version of her enters Thailand for the first time, being overseas born, there is no need for ever having a departure stamp in the system as it is impossible for an overseas born Thai citizen to have 'left' Thailand if they have never been there.

The OP's situation

Essentially he is the opposite to your daughter.

- Born in Thailand as a Thai citizen

- Left Thailand as a Thai citizen when he was 10 days old or whatever. The Thai version of the OP departed many years ago, and for the purposes of immigration 'accounting' he is still outside of Thailand somwhere.

- The EU version of the OP is in Thailand now and has an overstay. He needs to sort it by fronting up 20,000K at the airport, and then have the EU version of himself all cleared.

- He returns to Thailand on his Thai passport, and the Thai version of himself enters for the first time since he was 10 days old.

If the immigration officer asks where is his departure stamp, all he has to say is he left Thailand as a child and this is the first time he is returning as a Thai citizen, and that old departure stamp is in the old Thai passport which is long gone. His new blank Thai passport (which are all issued in Thailand anyway but don't presume as to your presence in Thailand) will be stamped in and that will be that.

[samran]

well going to the immigration isn not an option at the moment....i am in pattaya and showing an overstay for more then just a few days ,probely would cost me some money...or a day in jail...and i can't miss the 20.000 at the moment...

i just leave it as it is,and will ask a lawyer.

thanks anyway.

Given immigration lawyers very rarely deal with this issue, I think you'll find yourself wasting your time.

[jamescollister]

One more go then I will give up. Just for the record 2 daughters, youngest is 2. Both born in OZ with OZ PP, both have Thai birth certificates issued by the Thai embassy. Both have Thai PP issued in Ubon and we all live in Thailand permanently.

Our youngest daughter who is 2. On her first trip out of Thailand, after arriving on her OZ PP We we asked by immigration why one child was on a Thai PP and the other on an OZ PP. We explained and showed them her Thai PP.

We were taken to the senior immigration officer on duty. A very nice guy, he set about updating the computer info and explained that the child is on overstay on her OZ PP, but no fine for kids. If we left on the OZ PP and returned on the Thai PP it would be assumed that the holder of the Thai PP was not the true owner, as the true owner had never left Thailand. The onus will be on you to prove the truth.

There is no international passport data base, There is nothing in the immigration computers that can link john Smith issued with a UK PP with a John Smith on a US, OZ or Thai PP. Not saying the OP is going to go to prison, but he may have some explaining to do. Better to sort it out before he finds himself in a holding room. Jim Just as a PS the OP must remember that when he is dealing with the immigration on his return showing his Thai PP he will no longer be dealt with as a non Thai. Jim

[kamluan]

One more go then I will give up. Just for the record 2 daughters, youngest is 2. Both born in OZ with OZ PP, both have Thai birth certificates issued by the Thai embassy. Both have Thai PP issued in Ubon and we all live in Thailand permanently.

Our youngest daughter who is 2. On her first trip out of Thailand, after arriving on her OZ PP We we asked by immigration why one child was on a Thai PP and the other on an OZ PP. We explained and showed them her Thai PP.

We were taken to the senior immigration officer on duty. A very nice guy, he set about updating the computer info and explained that the child is on overstay on her OZ PP, but no fine for kids. If we left on the OZ PP and returned on the Thai PP it would be assumed that the holder of the Thai PP was not the true owner, as the true owner had never left Thailand. The onus will be on you to prove the truth.

There is no international passport data base, There is nothing in the immigration computers that can link john Smith issued with a UK PP with a John Smith on a US, OZ or Thai PP. Not saying the OP is going to go to prison, but he may have some explaining to do. Better to sort it out before he finds himself in a holding room. Jim Just as a PS the OP must remember that when he is dealing with the immigration on his return showing his Thai PP he will no longer be dealt with as a non Thai. Jim

i 'll just keep it the way it is for now....i would not like to sit in jail...even for a few hours here in thailand,and i hate waiting in a holdingroom...

i am happy here,i look thai,have a thai passpoort and id...so better no look for problems.

if i go back on a holiday or see the family,i will have the 20.000 seperated.

kind regards

[KimoMax]

Sadly the OP is responsible for his/her own mess with overstay on a foreign passport.

OP got a Thai passport a few months after arriving on a foreign passport with an O Visa but FAILED to take care of it or worry until on a 2 Year Overstay.

The OP did not keep his Visa current until a Thai Passport was obtained and go to Thai Immigation to rectify the passport and foreign Visa Dilema.

Doubtful the OP being Thai will go to Jail, but certainly if caught a fine will be imposed.

Edited to Condence

[samran]

James - I never said anything about an international DB. What I was talking about was the Thai immigration database.

As far as it is concerned, your daughter, the Thai citizen, has never entered Thailand. Just because you picked up the Thai passport in Ubon doesn't make a whiff of difference.

The Thai version of your daughter still lives outside of Thailand as she was born in Australia and has never entered Thailand on her Thai passport.

But if you want to confuse the OP, go right ahead. I give up.

[jamescollister]

James - I never said anything about an international DB. What I was talking about was the Thai immigration database.

As far as it is concerned, your daughter, the Thai citizen, has never entered Thailand. Just because you picked up the Thai passport in Ubon doesn't make a whiff of difference.

The Thai version of your daughter still lives outside of Thailand as she was born in Australia and has never entered Thailand on her Thai passport.

But if you want to confuse the OP, go right ahead. I give up.

See what you are saying, but the Thai passport is issued to her in Thailand, photo, thumb print and house book details. She is registered as being in Thailand, you have to attend the passport office in Thailand to get a passport. The tourist version could be another person of the same name. Ergo the Thai child/person has never left Thailand. Jim

[samran]

James - I never said anything about an international DB. What I was talking about was the Thai immigration database.

As far as it is concerned, your daughter, the Thai citizen, has never entered Thailand. Just because you picked up the Thai passport in Ubon doesn't make a whiff of difference.

The Thai version of your daughter still lives outside of Thailand as she was born in Australia and has never entered Thailand on her Thai passport.

But if you want to confuse the OP, go right ahead. I give up.

See what you are saying, but the Thai passport is issued to her in Thailand, photo, thumb print and house book details. She is registered as being in Thailand, you have to attend the passport office in Thailand to get a passport. The tourist version could be another person of the same name. Ergo the Thai child/person has never left Thailand. Jim

I see what you are saying too, but the process for applying for the passport is the same world over. The applications are done, the info gets sent to the same place, and the passports are re-sent out. She might be registered as being on Thai documentation - and may even have been physically present for them - but for immigration purposes, she is here as an Australian citizen, not a Thai one.

The Thai version of your daughter has never entered Thailand. She is the same person, but down on immigrations as an Australian citizen in Thailand.

We've had reports on this website essentially of adults who have done the same: entered on their foreign passport and then attempted to leave on the Thai one. Immigration at the airport has scanned the Thai passport, made a match, and said "hold on, you need to leave on your foreign one given you entered on it".

I'm trying to find the threads where this has happened (and recently), but can't at the moment.

You also said something earlier which I didn't understand:

If we left on the OZ PP and returned on the Thai PP it would be assumed that the holder of the Thai PP was not the true owner, as the true owner had never left Thailand. The onus will be on you to prove the truth.

Where did you get this from? Sounds a bit strange that a passport which has the photo and biometric data of the owner is all of a sudden deemed as reliable. It is a form of ID. It either matches or it doesn't regardless of the situation. Fingerprints don't change.

Additionally, as I've pointed out, on the highlighted section above - the true owner (ie your daughter), for immigration purposes - has never entered Thailand as a Thai citizen. Not the other way around as you explain it.

[lopburi3]

You may want to check this post (and others by johpa) who has recent personal experience and his son was caught and not allowed to exit on Thai passport.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=482470&view=findpost&p=4650039

[samran]

You may want to check this post (and others by johpa) who has recent personal experience and his son was caught and not allowed to exit on Thai passport.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=482470&view=findpost&p=4650039

That's the one, thanks Lop.