Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[473geo]

I can remember seeing a Swastika badge on the shirt of a BTS station cashier/clerk a few months ago. You can see them on bags , T-shirts, Even on the painted company buses that are everywhere, Clearly WW2 was something missing from the ciriculum in Thailand

The swastika is a religious symbols, don't mix it up with the nazi swastika. See the link in my earlier post.

Yes I agree, but religious symbols do not apply in this case. That group knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what it all meant.

The facts are that Thai people are secluded in their own world.

As for world history, many as not interested because they don`t consider what has happened or what is happening in other parts of the world has any relevance to them. This is why history is so low on the curriculum in most Thai schools, colleges and Universities.

I very much doubt if those that organised this spectacle and the participants give a rat's behind about world opinion or what anyone else thinks, or who it offends.

The attitude is, this is Thailand, we can do what we like in our own country and if you don`t like it then bugger off back home.

They were not and still not concerned as to the reaction this farce has caused. They take the easy get me out of this option and just plead ignorance knowing that the public have short memories and by next week would have all been forgotten.

Make no mistake; these people are not as ignorant as they appear, more like indifferent to the feelings of people who they consider foreigners, because there is no way that these people could have prepared and created all that paraphernalia in such detail without first doing some research regarding the subject and without learning what the Nazis were about and what they stood for.

A particularly harsh post on Thai people, almost an outpouring, you sure it is only this parade of baton twirling young ladies in stilletto boots that has brought this on?

you say 'this farce'.....then by your definition not to be taken too seriously I think

[473geo]

To be clear, I paint what the Thai students did as pure ignorance and I also don't see malice there. It's not a big deal on the face of it except to expose ignorance, but the fact that there has been a delay in the administration taking responsibility for what happened as they should have stopped it, rather than blaming the students, makes it rather a bigger deal. They could do with a course in Public Relations 101.

reading some of the comments on these threads they are not the only ones in need of a little public relations enlightenment

[MaiChai]

Ignorance is bliss! Welcome to Thailand.

[balo]

What the students did was just fun for them , a funny parade at school.

You can call it ignorant if you want but in Thailand the outside world is not so important.

They learn a lot about their own country at school. A lot of history but this is Thailand and what happened 70 years ago in Europe is just not interesting for them. You just have to live with it, it will happen again.

[ukrules]

The students all seem to be having a nice time and enjoying themselves in the photos. The question I have here is 'I wonder who thought of the idea to dress up as Nazi's from the second world war and why did they choose this theme ?'.

It all seems a little strange to me. I have nothing to compare this with though. What other kind of parades do they normally perform on these sport days each year ?

[MaxYakov]

Japan didn't conquer Thailand. Why would they teach this now if it wasn't considered to be the case when it was happening. Japan attempted to invade Thailand but after a few hours a mutual agreement was worked out between both countries. Thailand actually gained land during the war and was able to avoid the same problems and fate of other enemy countries after the war.

According to the Wiki entry for the History of Thailand (1932-1973), the 'Phibun regime' apparently decided to become an active and militarily aggressive member of the so-called 'Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere' (aka the Japanese Empire) and benefited from a military alliance with them. It must have seemed like a good idea at the time. They didn't realize until later that they had actually bet on the wrong horse, would lose those benefits and be accused of being Japanese allies as part of the bargain. It could always be claimed, I suppose, that the Phibun regime was illegal and anything they did not really represent the will of the Thai people (probably the case - a power-hungry minority controlling the country - where have we seen that before?).

The Wiki Entry (extract - read the full entry at your own risk):

Thailand's campaign for territorial expansion came to an end on December 8, 1941 when Japan invaded the country along its southern coastline and from Cambodia. After initially resisting, the Phibun regime allowed the Japanese to pass through the country in order to attack Burma and invade Maylaya. Convinced by the Allied defeats of early 1942 that Japan was winning the war, Phibun decide to form an actual military alliance with the Japanese. As a reward, Japan allowed Thailand to invade and annex the Shan States in northern Burma, and to resume sovereignty over the sultanates of northern Malaya which had previously been lost in a treaty with Britain. In January 1942 Phibun declared war on Britain and the United States, but the Thai Ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj, refused to deliver it to the State Department. Instead, Seni denounced the Phibun regime as illegal and formed a Seri Thai Movement in Washington. Pridi, by now serving in the role of an apparently powerless regent, led the resistance movement inside Thailand, while former Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the movement in Great Britain.

Edited September 27, 2011 by MaxYakov

[regine]

The outfits were only marginally accurate so it's entirely possible no real context was learned when "researching" the designs. The "fashion" angle shouldn't be surprising either... Thai girls aren't famed for their knowledge of world events but they do tend to know designer brands. In this case, Hugo Boss.

That's what I was thinking. And not only did the Schutzstaffel wear uniforms made by Hugo Boss, they also had vehicles made by Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Audi. All very fashionable in Thailand.

[jackr]

Of course, the American history that's taught in US schools is biased, and sometimes tends toward chauvinistic myth-making.

I'd go with that. They could do with dispelling the myth that you lot rolled up and saved everyone's ass. I'd posit not many over there know that Britain prevented their country from being taken by a superior air force in the Battle of Britain (WITHOUT the US) and that Germany declared war on the US. As great as the achievements of the US may be, the gung-ho 'we are the shit' attitude irritates many.

The students are so unaware - yet they cannot be blamed. To a Thai, there is no avenue to history other than Thai history!

I have two young boys in school now and I would rather the Thai educational system prepare them for the future.

Best way to prepare for a sound future is to learn from the past!

On your first point, there's no excuse for not knowing. The internet is loaded with information on anything & everything and is widely available. It's just plain laziness, ineptitude, history being 'mai sanook', and just not giving a hoot.

Edited September 28, 2011 by jackr

[endure]

Amazing number of posts here. Seems like anything to do with the holocaust/Nazis etc. is sure to bring out the extremes. I am sure those of Jewish heritage (if that is the right way to put it) feel very offended by what happened at the school. You should understand that the Holocaust is just one event in world history. While a sensitive issue for Jews and Israel, it is not necessarily sensitive for everyone else, particularly those born subsequent to the event. It is estimated that over 50 million people died as a result of WWII. What happened to the Jews and others (and there were many others) in the death camps was an appalling chapter in history. There have been many appalling chapters in human history which have shown how low the human race can sink. It has been estimated that the gulags of the Stalin era saw more people put to death than the Nazis could have imagined. The killing fields of Cambodia are another example. It goes on and on. The unfortunate part is that it still occurs. As one who majored in history in college, I have put the holocaust in perspective along with the other atrocities in history. The killing of any one person based on religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, ideology, etc. is an atrocity in itself. Over 65 years have passed since WWII. Most of Europe and the west has been held hostage to the holocaust since then. Even in those countries who actively fought the Germans in WWII there has been a tendency to feel apologetic about what happened. We feel we have to atone for this with memorials and monuments even in Washington, DC with the Holocaust memorial some 60 years after the event occurred. I am tired of being made to feel bad about what happened before I was born. It was a terrible thing. I would like to think the world would learn something from it, but it has not.

Do I share the sadness of what happened during the holocaust, sure. But quiet honestly I feel worse about what happened in Cambodia after the Vietnam war because this was my era and I was stationed in Vietnam while serving in the US Air Force. .Just maybe had the United States not been involved in that war, and then bailed out on its allies in South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, the Khmer Rouge would not have gone to the extremes that they did. Just maybe there would have been no killing fields. I was actually happy when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and put a stop to the brutal regime in Cambodia. Unfortunately full accountability and punishment for the atrocities in that country were never fully carried out. Over 50% of the population in Vietnam was born after the Vietnam war and do not seem to hold the United States as a poison. People move on, generations change, and I hope that at some point in time the Jews can move on beyond the Holocaust. As one poster stated, it seems like Israel and many Jews use this for leverage. The time has come to stop making the world feel guilty about the holocaust. I for one do not feel guilt for things that occurred before I was born. The holocaust is no more important to the children of Thailand than the gulags of Stalin, the Armenian genocide, or any of the other atrocities that have occurred. As an American I feel more guilt about what the white man did to the American Indians in their push west. America sends billions to Israel each year and Native Americans in some cases live in poverty. When I was in high school, I learned about the American Revolution, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korean War as honestly the emphasis was on "American" history. I did not learn until college that the Japanese invaded China, took control of Korea, etc. as early as the 1930's. There is no way students can be taught the whole of world history as there just is not enough class time to do that. So I would say tread lightly on criticism of what occurred in this Thai school.

A little off subject but it has been touched on here a bit (and for the record I am not anti-Israel) is that I feel that Israel plays the holocaust card well through Jews throughout the world. But Israel has hardly stepped up to the plate in regard to atrocities that have occurred in other parts of the world in recent history by leading in word or deed to alleviate suffering when genocide has occurred in areas such as Africa which have been in close proximity. It seems to have been the Western nations who have made the effort to stop genocide and help alleviate the suffering in recent history, unfortunately not always successfully.

Overall, in my view, the impression your post gives is that you are sick and tired of being guilt tripped by Jews. You deserve credit for being honest, but I can't give you much more credit than that.

Overall in my view, you're right. "Trouble" is sick and tired of being guilt tripped by Jews and in my view he has a point. The fact that that you've posted a 70 year old Nazi propaganda film on a thread complaining about Thai school children sort of proves his point.

Don't you even THINK of waving your poor downtrodden minority flag at me. My 'comrades' caught the same trains as yours.

[animatic]

Amazing number of posts here. Seems like anything to do with the holocaust/Nazis etc. is sure to bring out the extremes. I am sure those of Jewish heritage (if that is the right way to put it) feel very offended by what happened at the school. You should understand that the Holocaust is just one event in world history. While a sensitive issue for Jews and Israel, it is not necessarily sensitive for everyone else, particularly those born subsequent to the event. It is estimated that over 50 million people died as a result of WWII. What happened to the Jews and others (and there were many others) in the death camps was an appalling chapter in history. There have been many appalling chapters in human history which have shown how low the human race can sink. It has been estimated that the gulags of the Stalin era saw more people put to death than the Nazis could have imagined. The killing fields of Cambodia are another example. It goes on and on. The unfortunate part is that it still occurs. As one who majored in history in college, I have put the holocaust in perspective along with the other atrocities in history. The killing of any one person based on religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, ideology, etc. is an atrocity in itself. Over 65 years have passed since WWII. Most of Europe and the west has been held hostage to the holocaust since then. Even in those countries who actively fought the Germans in WWII there has been a tendency to feel apologetic about what happened. We feel we have to atone for this with memorials and monuments even in Washington, DC with the Holocaust memorial some 60 years after the event occurred. I am tired of being made to feel bad about what happened before I was born. It was a terrible thing. I would like to think the world would learn something from it, but it has not.

Do I share the sadness of what happened during the holocaust, sure. But quiet honestly I feel worse about what happened in Cambodia after the Vietnam war because this was my era and I was stationed in Vietnam while serving in the US Air Force. .Just maybe had the United States not been involved in that war, and then bailed out on its allies in South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, the Khmer Rouge would not have gone to the extremes that they did. Just maybe there would have been no killing fields. I was actually happy when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and put a stop to the brutal regime in Cambodia. Unfortunately full accountability and punishment for the atrocities in that country were never fully carried out. Over 50% of the population in Vietnam was born after the Vietnam war and do not seem to hold the United States as a poison. People move on, generations change, and I hope that at some point in time the Jews can move on beyond the Holocaust. As one poster stated, it seems like Israel and many Jews use this for leverage. The time has come to stop making the world feel guilty about the holocaust. I for one do not feel guilt for things that occurred before I was born. The holocaust is no more important to the children of Thailand than the gulags of Stalin, the Armenian genocide, or any of the other atrocities that have occurred. As an American I feel more guilt about what the white man did to the American Indians in their push west. America sends billions to Israel each year and Native Americans in some cases live in poverty. When I was in high school, I learned about the American Revolution, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korean War as honestly the emphasis was on "American" history. I did not learn until college that the Japanese invaded China, took control of Korea, etc. as early as the 1930's. There is no way students can be taught the whole of world history as there just is not enough class time to do that. So I would say tread lightly on criticism of what occurred in this Thai school.

A little off subject but it has been touched on here a bit (and for the record I am not anti-Israel) is that I feel that Israel plays the holocaust card well through Jews throughout the world. But Israel has hardly stepped up to the plate in regard to atrocities that have occurred in other parts of the world in recent history by leading in word or deed to alleviate suffering when genocide has occurred in areas such as Africa which have been in close proximity. It seems to have been the Western nations who have made the effort to stop genocide and help alleviate the suffering in recent history, unfortunately not always successfully.

Overall, in my view, the impression your post gives is that you are sick and tired of being guilt tripped by Jews. You deserve credit for being honest, but I can't give you much more credit than that.

It seems to me it's up to the Jewish people, not you or anyone else, whether it's time to "move on" from the holocaust. Sorry to tell you that the sentiment of NEVER AGAIN translates pretty much into never forget.

You cite Vietnam and the people not hating Americans. True that, but the last time I checked the Uncle Ho mausoleum in Hanoi is still massively popular. Do you think Israel and Germany are enemies now? Actually, they are close friends and allies.

You seem a bit put out by holocaust museums. Did they force you to attend? I reckon the one in Washington D.C. is the best one. Have you been? Are you aware that besides documenting the Shoah, a key raison d'etre of these holocaust museums is to raise awareness of CURRENT genocides in the world?

http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/

What was different about the Nazi regime holocaust? What was different is that it was done by the most advanced industrialized country at the time in the heart of so called civilized western Europe. What was different was that they used modern media propaganda to brainwash their people (Jews portrayed as rats at the movies) and what was different was the industrial age technology they used to perform the genocide. (Classic example of Nazi genocide propaganda shown below.) Namely, the gas chambers. Also, the use of fascist pseudo race science "proof" to show the scientific basis for genocide. It isn't all about numbers; its also the shocking element of this happening in the context of modernity and advanced civilization.

Israel not doing enough about current genocides in the world? That's a fair point, but it's a small country with lots of her own problems, but I do know they have a strong foreign aid focus in offering quick response medical teams in emergencies. If you watched the coverage after Haiti earthquake, you will have noticed the Israeli medical teams were star players. Whether Israel is perfect or not (it is not!) doesn't seem to me to be all that relevant to whether the Nazi regime holocaust deserves inclusion in global school curriculum or whether Catholic school hosted Nazi parades should EVER be tolerated anywhere.

Cheers.

Seconding Jingthing.

[Macmundi]

"Poorly educated" that's all there is to say.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[Briggsy]

Perhaps next year the students can watch a re-enactment of the events of the 1976 Thammasat University massacre featuring parents playing the roles of all the lead players.

[Thai at Heart]

There are instances of kids all over the globe who have dressed in Nazi gear ... wasn't there a prince in England who wore a Nazi uniform for fun as an adult? Does this mean the entire UK education system is broken and the population uneducated?

But if this topic helps those whose only self esteem comes from feeling superior to people in a developing nation ... more power to them.

God forbid some people here use any logical sense at all to know there was absolutely no hatred or negative views being expressed by these kids ... but don't let that stop you from expressing your faux outrage and faux feelings of superiority.

Yes, and he was publicly condemned for being an idiot and issued a public apology. And yes it did spark discussion about the level to which British culture had stooped. In fact one politician went so far as to state that Harry shouldn't be allowed in the army.

He added: "After the revelations I don't think this young man is suitable for Sandhurst. If it was anyone else the application wouldn't be considered. It should be withdrawn immediately."

He added: "A quick way of nipping it in the bud is for Harry to make it clear he has withdrawn his application for Sandhurst."

His view was echoed by Labour MP Ian Davidson who said: "You would have expected that someone who aspired to join the British Army would have considered what they were doing.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-15924642-outrage-at-nazi-harry.do

The sad thing is that it has to come to the point that a member of the British Royal Household has to be informed that wearing fancy dress like this is extremely offensive to the vast majority of the British population and hundreds of millions of others. He should be 100% aware of this fact. Presumably he is relatively ignorant. As for others around the world, they should probably be 99% aware of why celebrating Nazism is likely to offend millions if not billions of people. That is fine if you want to be offensive to people, but don't complain when you get condemned for offending them.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[mulryan]

Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sacred Heart Catholic School is under the guidance an influence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RC has a very clear position on Nazis and the the events related to WWII: It abhors the event and considers the Nazi period to be one horrible sin. I'm not trying to start a debate on the Church, but am emphasizing that there can be no excuse for this event at a Catholic school because it violates the current position of the Church Having students parading about in nazi garb is an affront and rebuke to the Church. As such, the argument that the poor dears were ignorant or that the swastika is a good luck sign etc holds no water. The use of non Christian symbols, particularly those associated with practices and customs not consistent with Church teachings and positions is contrary to the Church doctrine, and are neither encouraged nor promoted by Church associated entities.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic clergy needs to assert itself in this matter. Either the school is worthy of being called a Catholic School or it is not. At the very least, someone needs a smack across the head from a Sister Mary Margaret and needs to revisit the compulsory morals class and curriculum.

So the sponsors of a parade have to endorse all the political views not only of the people participating in the parade, but also the characters that they dress up as?

I don't have a strong view on how people dress in parades, and if they had gone around burning effigies of Billy Connolly I hope I would have taken it in my stride, but I do get concerned when people start attacking others' freedom of dress without acknowledging that they are on a march down the slippery slope to tyranny.

Many of the more outspoken posters on this thread have been condemning the parade participants for failing to hold the same views that they themselves hold, and making comments like "those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". But learning from history is different from knowing one's history. The Nazi party rose to power led by a demagogue who appealed to the disenfranchised, and made them feel victims, and gave them the moral guidance to start a struggle against 'foreigners' including their neighbours of other races. Deutsche Leibe Deutsche might have been a better name for the party than National Socialist.

I suppose most of us are particularly distressed by the horrors of the holocaust because we find it hard to understand how our neighbours, who seem so much like us, could have participated, albeit tacitly, and perhaps fear that in such a position we would ourselves have lacked the spiritual and moral heroism that was exhibited by the few who stood against the tyranny within Germany.

As others have said - perhaps this could be the starting point for a learning activity on the history of tyranny, good taste and consideration for others' feelings. In which case, one way of starting that educational process would be "YOU ARE SO IGNORANT!" and we could take it from there...

SC

That's a lovely post,

Children running around in Nazi costumes in school? Pure ignorance.

Why is this term "the holocaust" used exclusively with the Jews? Shouldn't it apply to all mass systematic killings of a race? And maybe it's just me, but it riles me that the Native North Americans are rarely, if ever included in these types of discussions. Could this be due to ignorance?

[Pakboong]

Japan didn't conquer Thailand. Why would they teach this now if it wasn't considered to be the case when it was happening. Japan attempted to invade Thailand but after a few hours a mutual agreement was worked out between both countries. Thailand actually gained land during the war and was able to avoid the same problems and fate of other enemy countries after the war.

According to the Wiki entry for the History of Thailand (1932-1973), the 'Phibun regime' apparently decided to become an active and militarily aggressive member of the so-called 'Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere' (aka the Japanese Empire) and benefited from a military alliance with them. It must have seemed like a good idea at the time. They didn't realize until later that they had actually bet on the wrong horse, would lose those benefits and be accused of being Japanese allies as part of the bargain. It could always be claimed, I suppose, that the Phibun regime was illegal and anything they did not really represent the will of the Thai people (probably the case - a power-hungry minority controlling the country - where have we seen that before?).

The Wiki Entry (extract - read the full entry at your own risk):

Thailand's campaign for territorial expansion came to an end on December 8, 1941 when Japan invaded the country along its southern coastline and from Cambodia. After initially resisting, the Phibun regime allowed the Japanese to pass through the country in order to attack Burma and invade Maylaya. Convinced by the Allied defeats of early 1942 that Japan was winning the war, Phibun decide to form an actual military alliance with the Japanese. As a reward, Japan allowed Thailand to invade and annex the Shan States in northern Burma, and to resume sovereignty over the sultanates of northern Malaya which had previously been lost in a treaty with Britain. In January 1942 Phibun declared war on Britain and the United States, but the Thai Ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj, refused to deliver it to the State Department. Instead, Seni denounced the Phibun regime as illegal and formed a Seri Thai Movement in Washington. Pridi, by now serving in the role of an apparently powerless regent, led the resistance movement inside Thailand, while former Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the movement in Great Britain.

Philbin actually welcomed the Japanese. He had been in a struggle to limit Capitalist Chinese immigration and influence. As evidenced by his exile to Japan where he lived out his remaining days.

[rametindallas]

What amazes me is how easy it is to offend Thai cultural sensibilities while at the same time the Thais have no sense that other cultures can even be offended. Next year the school will dress in black-faace and sing plantation slave songs, I guess. No curiosity of non-Thai history or culture and no curiosity of their own history or geography. My Thai friends are amazied I know more than them about the sacking of Ayutthaya by the Burmese in 1767. I think it is a Buddhist thing of living in the moment and that neither history nor the future are important. My uncle lost many friends fighting Nazis and my neighbor was never quite sane after surviving the Bataan Death March so I am offended when those brutalities are glorified. I have lost my shock at Thais being insensitive but still amazed at how easy it is to offend a Thai.

[animatic]

'StreetCowboy' timestamp='1317127331' post='4726260'

'geriatrickid' timestamp='1317126199' post='4726215'

Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sacred Heart Catholic School is under the guidance an influence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RC has a very clear position on Nazis and the the events related to WWII: It abhors the event and considers the Nazi period to be one horrible sin. I'm not trying to start a debate on the Church, but am emphasizing that there can be no excuse for this event at a Catholic school because it violates the current position of the Church Having students parading about in nazi garb is an affront and rebuke to the Church. As such, the argument that the poor dears were ignorant or that the swastika is a good luck sign etc holds no water. The use of non Christian symbols, particularly those associated with practices and customs not consistent with Church teachings and positions is contrary to the Church doctrine, and are neither encouraged nor promoted by Church associated entities.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic clergy needs to assert itself in this matter. Either the school is worthy of being called a Catholic School or it is not. At the very least, someone needs a smack across the head from a Sister Mary Margaret and needs to revisit the compulsory morals class and curriculum.

So the sponsors of a parade have to endorse all the political views not only of the people participating in the parade, but also the characters that they dress up as?

I don't have a strong view on how people dress in parades, and if they had gone around burning effigies of Billy Connolly I hope I would have taken it in my stride, but I do get concerned when people start attacking others' freedom of dress without acknowledging that they are on a march down the slippery slope to tyranny.

Many of the more outspoken posters on this thread have been condemning the parade participants for failing to hold the same views that they themselves hold, and making comments like "those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". But learning from history is different from knowing one's history. The Nazi party rose to power led by a demagogue who appealed to the disenfranchised, and made them feel victims, and gave them the moral guidance to start a struggle against 'foreigners' including their neighbours of other races. Deutsche Leibe Deutsche might have been a better name for the party than National Socialist.

I suppose most of us are particularly distressed by the horrors of the holocaust because we find it hard to understand how our neighbours, who seem so much like us, could have participated, albeit tacitly, and perhaps fear that in such a position we would ourselves have lacked the spiritual and moral heroism that was exhibited by the few who stood against the tyranny within Germany.

As others have said - perhaps this could be the starting point for a learning activity on the history of tyranny, good taste and consideration for others' feelings. In which case, one way of starting that educational process would be "YOU ARE SO IGNORANT!" and we could take it from there...

SC

That's a lovely post,

Children running around in Nazi costumes in school? Pure ignorance.

Why is this term "the holocaust" used exclusively with the Jews? Shouldn't it apply to all mass systematic killings of a race? And maybe it's just me, but it riles me that the Native North Americans are rarely, if ever included in these types of discussions. Could this be due to ignorance?

It wasn't just Jews killed in the Holocaust either.

They were by far the largest percentage, but hardly the only ones.

http://en.wikipedia....locaust_victims

While the term Holocaust victims generally refers to Jews, the Nazisalso persecuted and often killed millions of members of other groups they considered inferior (Untermenschen), undesirable or dangerous.

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) states: "The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II."^[1]

In addition to Jews, the targeted groups included Poles (of whom 2.5 million gentile Poles were killed) and some other Slavic peoples;Soviets (particularly prisoners of war); Romanies (also known as Gypsies) and others who did not belong to the "Aryan race"; thementally ill, the Deaf, the physically disabled and mentally retarded;homosexual and transsexual people; political opponents and religiousdissidents.^[2][3] Taking into account all of the victims of Nazi persecution, they systematically killed an estimated six million Jews and mass murdered an additional eleven million people during the war. Donald Niewyk suggests that the broadest definition, including Soviet civilian deaths would produce a death toll of 17 million.^[4]

Not to say Wiki is the definitive source, but that it centers much information on the subject.

http://fcit.usf.edu/...ple/victims.htm

Approximately 11 million people were killed because of Nazi genocidal policy. It was the explicit aim of Hitler's regime to create a European world both dominated and populated by the "Aryan" race. The Nazi machinery was dedicated to eradicating millions of people it deemed undesirable. Some people were undesirable by Nazi standards because of who they were,their genetic or cultural origins, or health conditions. These included Jews, Gypsies, Poles and other Slavs, and people with physical or mental disabilities. Others were Nazi victims because of what they did. These victims of the Nazi regime included Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, the dissenting clergy, Communists, Socialists, asocials, and other political enemies.

And of course numbers vary, it can never be definitively known, the numbers where just to large.

In ANY CASE, it dwarfs The Killing Fields of Cambodia, and is typically mentioned in most conversations relating to the Khmer Rouge atrocities.

It is disingenuous to say that Thai kids shouldn't know enough to at least know this is offensive.

We should HOPE this is the case.

[Pakboong]

"What was different about the Nazi regime holocaust? What was different is that it was done by the most advanced industrialized country at the time in the heart of so called civilized western Europe."

A key point JT.

I do enjoy your commitment to your presentation. Understanding how a country can make this kind of recovery from total economic devastation in a mere 5 years tells us a bunch about what is humanly possible. That aspect will never even be considered by the Thais and perhaps that is a good thing. It is rarely considered in the West.

[andiron]

My child is attending a Thai school. She never heard of Hitler, Tojo, or World War II. She also never heard of Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire. She has no knowledge of world history at all. This will be her last year in the Thai school.

[shawnmeu]

I can remember seeing a Swastika badge on the shirt of a BTS station cashier/clerk a few months ago. You can see them on bags , T-shirts, Even on the painted company buses that are everywhere, Clearly WW2 was something missing from the ciriculum in Thailand

The swastika is a religious symbols, don't mix it up with the nazi swastika. See the link in my earlier post.

The religious symbol is an upright swastika symbol and the nazi swastika is rotated about 45 degrees. And a religious symbol wouldn't be worn with a nazi uniform.

[EdgeThailand]

This is very strange and is smacks of total ignorance of WWII history and Nazi Germany. Don't these teachers read? If I am not mistaken, this is NOT the first time it has happened in Thailand.

Don't take it so seriously, it's only a fancy dress

[Beetlejuice]

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<br>Amazing number of posts here.  Seems like anything to do with the holocaust/Nazis etc. is sure to bring out the extremes.  I am sure those of Jewish heritage (if that is the right way to put it) feel very offended by what happened at the school. You should understand that the Holocaust is just one event in world history. While a sensitive issue for Jews and Israel, it is not necessarily sensitive for everyone else, particularly those born subsequent to the event.  It is estimated that over 50 million people died as a result of WWII.  What happened to the Jews and others (and there were many others) in the death camps was an appalling chapter in history. There have been many appalling chapters in human history which have shown how low the human race can sink.  It has been estimated that the gulags of the Stalin era saw more people put to death than the Nazis could have imagined. The killing fields of Cambodia are another example. It goes on and on. The unfortunate part is that it still occurs.  As one who majored in history in college, I have put the holocaust in perspective along with the other atrocities in history. The killing of any one person based on religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, ideology, etc. is an atrocity in itself.  Over 65 years have passed since WWII. Most of Europe and the west has been held hostage to the holocaust since then. Even in those countries who actively fought the Germans in WWII there has been a tendency to feel apologetic about what happened. We feel we have to atone for this with memorials and monuments even in Washington, DC with the Holocaust memorial some 60 years after the event occurred. I am tired of being made to feel bad about what happened before I was born. It was a terrible thing. I would like to think the world would learn something from it, but it has not.  <br><br>Do I share the sadness of what happened during the holocaust, sure. But quiet honestly I feel worse about what happened in Cambodia after the Vietnam war because this was my era and I was stationed in Vietnam while serving in the US Air Force. .Just maybe had the United States not been involved in that war, and then bailed out on its allies in South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, the Khmer Rouge would not have gone to the extremes that they did.  Just maybe there would have been no killing fields. I was actually happy when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and put a stop to the brutal regime in Cambodia. Unfortunately full accountability and punishment for the atrocities in that country were never fully carried out.  Over 50% of the population in Vietnam was born after the Vietnam war and do not seem to hold the United States as a poison.  People move on, generations change, and I hope that at some point in time the Jews can move on beyond the Holocaust.  As one poster stated, it seems like Israel and many Jews use this for leverage.  The time has come to stop making the world feel guilty about the holocaust.  I for one do not feel guilt for things that occurred before I was born.  The holocaust is no more important to the children of Thailand than the gulags of Stalin, the Armenian genocide, or any of the other atrocities that have occurred. As an American I feel more guilt about what the white man did to the American Indians in their push west. America sends billions to Israel each year and Native Americans in some cases live in poverty. When I was in high school, I learned about the American Revolution, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korean War as honestly the emphasis was on "American" history.  I did not learn until college that the Japanese invaded China, took control of Korea, etc. as early as the 1930's.  There is no way students can be taught the whole of world history as there just is not enough class time to do that.  So I would say tread lightly on criticism of what occurred in this Thai school. <br><br>A little off subject but it has been touched on here a bit (and for the record I am not anti-Israel) is that I feel that Israel plays the holocaust card well through Jews throughout the world. But Israel has hardly stepped up to the plate in regard to atrocities that have occurred in other parts of the world in recent history by leading in word or deed to alleviate suffering when genocide has occurred in areas such as Africa which have been in close proximity.  It seems to have been the Western nations who have made the effort to stop genocide and help alleviate the suffering  in recent history, unfortunately not always successfully.<br>

<br>Overall, in my view, the impression your post gives is that you are sick and tired of being guilt tripped by Jews. You deserve credit for being honest, but I can't give you much more credit than that.<br><br><a href="

class="bbc_url" title="External link" rel="nofollow external">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fwsySS2EzgU</a><br>

<br><br>Overall in my view, you're right. "Trouble" is sick and tired of being guilt tripped by Jews and in my view he has a point. The fact that that you've posted a 70 year old Nazi propaganda film on a thread complaining about Thai school children sort of proves his point.<br><br>Don't you even THINK of waving your poor downtrodden minority flag at me. My 'comrades' caught the same trains as yours.<br>

But your comrade Trouble still hasn`t answered my question, so I`ll ask you the same:

Do you view the Jews of Europe as the counterparts of their Christian patriots or as members of an alien race and society? Because if the latter, then that's your problem and something you're have to live with.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[geriatrickid]

Perhaps next year the students can watch a re-enactment of the events of the 1976 Thammasat University massacre featuring parents playing the roles of all the lead players.

Umm, I already had suggested a re-enactment of the 1976 Thammasat University massacre. a few pages back.

However, I was thinking along the lines of foreigners dressing up as Thai military and police parading about thousands of shirtless Thai males and beating them for added affect. Bassically a public humiliation. Or perhaps next December 21, a re-enactment of the Japanese arrival In Thailand. We'll need to get a cast of thousands to recreate the surrender.

Edited September 28, 2011 by geriatrickid

[Bagwan]

Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sacred Heart Catholic School is under the guidance an influence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RC has a very clear position on Nazis and the the events related to WWII: It abhors the event and considers the Nazi period to be one horrible sin. I'm not trying to start a debate on the Church, but am emphasizing that there can be no excuse for this event at a Catholic school because it violates the current position of the Church Having students parading about in nazi garb is an affront and rebuke to the Church. As such, the argument that the poor dears were ignorant or that the swastika is a good luck sign etc holds no water. The use of non Christian symbols, particularly those associated with practices and customs not consistent with Church teachings and positions is contrary to the Church doctrine, and are neither encouraged nor promoted by Church associated entities.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic clergy needs to assert itself in this matter. Either the school is worthy of being called a Catholic School or it is not. At the very least, someone needs a smack across the head from a Sister Mary Margaret and needs to revisit the compulsory morals class and curriculum.

I suggest that you reconsider Pope XII's relationship with Nazi Germany. Pacelli had much to answer for. Are you aware that it was the Catholic Church that provided the escape route through Genoa for the Odessa organisation to filter high ranking Nazis to South America? The Catholic Church, much the same of the Nazis, is an engine of oppression. It should come as no great surprise that those indoctrinated students should pull such a stunt. Can you name just one prosperous Catholic country? Forget contraception ladies, just keep churning out more recruits for our faith and ignore your health, your financial situation and the world population crisis. Go on believing the mis-truths and lies we spread and keeping the money rolling in.

What chances that these stupid, ignorant, young people will surprise us next year and parade around pretending to be Hasadic Jews?

[geriatrickid]

This is very strange and is smacks of total ignorance of WWII history and Nazi Germany. Don't these teachers read? If I am not mistaken, this is NOT the first time it has happened in Thailand.

Don't take it so seriously, it's only a fancy dress

Sure, tell that to the allied troops taken prison and executed by people wearing that uniform. Tell it to the thousands of non combatants brutalized by people in those uniforms. Sorry, but many members of my family volunteered for service and did not have happy memories of such uniforms.I have an obligation not to forget their sacrifice so that I could be free today and so that people like you could offer insensitive selfish comments without ending up in a concentration camp.

[geriatrickid]

Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sacred Heart Catholic School is under the guidance an influence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RC has a very clear position on Nazis and the the events related to WWII: It abhors the event and considers the Nazi period to be one horrible sin. I'm not trying to start a debate on the Church, but am emphasizing that there can be no excuse for this event at a Catholic school because it violates the current position of the Church Having students parading about in nazi garb is an affront and rebuke to the Church. As such, the argument that the poor dears were ignorant or that the swastika is a good luck sign etc holds no water. The use of non Christian symbols, particularly those associated with practices and customs not consistent with Church teachings and positions is contrary to the Church doctrine, and are neither encouraged nor promoted by Church associated entities.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic clergy needs to assert itself in this matter. Either the school is worthy of being called a Catholic School or it is not. At the very least, someone needs a smack across the head from a Sister Mary Margaret and needs to revisit the compulsory morals class and curriculum.

I suggest that you reconsider Pope XII's relationship with Nazi Germany. Pacelli had much to answer for. Are you aware that it was the Catholic Church that provided the escape route through Genoa for the Odessa organisation to filter high ranking Nazis to South America? The Catholic Church, much the same of the Nazis, is an engine of oppression. It should come as no great surprise that those indoctrinated students should pull such a stunt. Can you name just one prosperous Catholic country? Forget contraception ladies, just keep churning out more recruits for our faith and ignore your health, your financial situation and the world population crisis. Go on believing the mis-truths and lies we spread and keeping the money rolling in.

What chances that these stupid, ignorant, young people will surprise us next year and parade around pretending to be Hasadic Jews?

I did not wish to go off on a tangent about the catholic church. Although, I am not a Catholic, I do know what the current position of the Church is and it is opposed the Nazis and all that they stand for. We can't change the past, but we do not need to repeat the same stupidities. In respect to the position of the Church today it is unacceptable that such an activity and such behaviour would be allowed on the site of a Catholic school. It was the duty and the obligation of the school administraters and any clergy present to immediately stop the parade and festivities. By not doing so, they violated the Church's position and were in breach of their duty to uphold the teachings of the Church. All those that remained silent have sinned.

[uptheos]

Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sacred Heart Catholic School is under the guidance an influence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RC has a very clear position on Nazis and the the events related to WWII: It abhors the event and considers the Nazi period to be one horrible sin. I'm not trying to start a debate on the Church, but am emphasizing that there can be no excuse for this event at a Catholic school because it violates the current position of the Church Having students parading about in nazi garb is an affront and rebuke to the Church. As such, the argument that the poor dears were ignorant or that the swastika is a good luck sign etc holds no water. The use of non Christian symbols, particularly those associated with practices and customs not consistent with Church teachings and positions is contrary to the Church doctrine, and are neither encouraged nor promoted by Church associated entities.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic clergy needs to assert itself in this matter. Either the school is worthy of being called a Catholic School or it is not. At the very least, someone needs a smack across the head from a Sister Mary Margaret and needs to revisit the compulsory morals class and curriculum.

I suggest that you reconsider Pope XII's relationship with Nazi Germany. Pacelli had much to answer for. Are you aware that it was the Catholic Church that provided the escape route through Genoa for the Odessa organisation to filter high ranking Nazis to South America? The Catholic Church, much the same of the Nazis, is an engine of oppression. It should come as no great surprise that those indoctrinated students should pull such a stunt. Can you name just one prosperous Catholic country? Forget contraception ladies, just keep churning out more recruits for our faith and ignore your health, your financial situation and the world population crisis. Go on believing the mis-truths and lies we spread and keeping the money rolling in.

What chances that these stupid, ignorant, young people will surprise us next year and parade around pretending to be Hasadic Jews?

"The Reichskonkordat is the most controversial of several concordats agreed between various states and the Vatican during the reign of Pope Pius XI and is frequently discussed in works that deal with the rise of Hitler in the early 1930's and the Holocaust. The concordat has been described as giving moral legitimacy to the Nazi regime soon after Hitler had acquired dictatorial powers, having placed constraints on Catholics critical of the regime, leading to a muted response by the Church to the polices of the Nazi's. From a Roman Catholic Church perspective it has been argued that the concordat prevented even greater evils being unleashed against the Church. Though the German bishops were unenthusiastic, and the allied forces felt it was inappropriate, Pope Pius XII argued to keep the concordat at the end of World War II and the treaty is still in force today".

[MaxYakov]

This is very strange and is smacks of total ignorance of WWII history and Nazi Germany. Don't these teachers read? If I am not mistaken, this is NOT the first time it has happened in Thailand.

Don't take it so seriously, it's only a fancy dress

Fancy dress? Who was wearing this 3 X 5 meter (est.) 'Nazism' banner festooned with what appears to be portraits of Hitler and other Nazi elite and misc. weapons of war including automatic weapons (in case you missed it)? This is a 'Sports Festival'? What kind of sport do you suppose?

Note: It appears that an attempt at rendering the Muslim/Nazi collaborator, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, appears in the banner's lower left. Astounding detail, I'd say, with some in-depth research behind it. I'm not that taken with the FW-190 fighter rendering, however.

Edited September 28, 2011 by MaxYakov

[ParadiseLost]

Apparently next years theme has been decided already; to appease all you peace loving christians the theme will be religion across the past few hundred years, focusing mainly on Catholicism and the Inquisitions.

There will be many stakes for witches and the closing ceremony will feature old men in robes 'converting' little boys for the benefit of mankind.

Don't you people condemning these kids see just how pathetic you are - there are millions of adults worldwide attending weekly ceremonies idolising a faith which is steeped in murder and rape of innocents.

Hell, the Vatican is one of the richest states in the world - they certainly profited from their own little genocide...