Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[Nisa]

Watching Thai TV now and they have a couple characters parading around as the Devil. Waiting for the outrage from the biblical world ... or could it be the Nazis were even more evil than Satan .

[siamiam]

Actually I did watch this strange move in English about a past famous Portuguese or Spanish explorer that was instrumental in Thai history but can't remember much more even though I found it interesting enough to see it twice.

Won't go off on a lengthy off topic tangent but that would be Constantine Phaulkon (who later became Chao Phraya Wichayen -- Chao Phya was an extremely high rank in the Royal Court) . He was Greek.

I don't think so this guy was an explorer and diplomat and I'm certain he was either Spanish or Portuguese based on his dress.. I believe it was Duarte Fernandes around the time of King Rama II..

There is a bit of information on Duarte Fernandes in David Wyatt's book 'Thailand, A Short History'. This name appears in the index for one page only, page 88, where it has Mr. Fernandes as the first Portuguese envoy to Siam, arriving in Ayudhya in 1511. This is considerably before the time of Rama II, so I'm not sure he is the historical person you are looking for. Fernandes was well received in Siam and sent home with lavish presents for the king of Portugal.

[Jingthing]

Watching Thai TV now and they have a couple characters parading around as the Devil. Waiting for the outrage from the biblical world ... or could it be the Nazis were even more evil than Satan .

Answer -- YES.

Nazis were real. Some still exist. No the students aren't real Nazis, again, just ignorant. Many of us feel their teachers could do better with the subject because if they really knew what the Nazis represented its doubtful they would have considered a Nazi parade a fun idea; some don't care.

Satan is an imaginary religious concept.

You're not waiting for anything. Your entire theme here has been to cleverly/subtly minimize and ridicule the idea that people might have an issue with a Nazi parade and also to irrationality make excuses for Thai people doing that.

Context matters of course. There are plenty of situations where dressing as Nazis makes perfect sense. As mentioned before, in a comedic show, in movies where Nazis are part of the story, characters in a dramatic play, etc.

A sports parade ... not so much.

Next ...

Edited September 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[siamiam]

Actually I did watch this strange move in English about a past famous Portuguese or Spanish explorer that was instrumental in Thai history but can't remember much more even though I found it interesting enough to see it twice.

Won't go off on a lengthy off topic tangent but that would be Constantine Phaulkon (who later became Chao Phraya Wichayen -- Chao Phya was an extremely high rank in the Royal Court) . He was Greek.

It wouldn't have been off topic at all if he'd been German ... or Jewish or wore kinky uniforms. Did he have any influence on Siam financial matters, by any chance?

Kinky Phaulkon? He was influential in Siamese financial matters, in a number of ways over a number of years. As SJ said, Constantine Phaulkon rose extremely high in the court of King Narai in 1680's Ayudhya. In 1688 Phaulkon was put to death by Narai's successor, King Phetracha, for plotting to deliver the kingdom into the hands of France. Source: David Wyatt's 'Thailand, A Short history'.

[Nisa]

Watching Thai TV now and they have a couple characters parading around as the Devil. Waiting for the outrage from the biblical world ... or could it be the Nazis were even more evil than Satan .

Answer -- YES.

Nazis were real. Some still exist. No the students aren't real Nazis, again, just ignorant.

Satan is an imaginary concept.

You're not waiting for anything. Your entire theme here has been to cleverly/subtly minimize and ridicule the idea that people might have an issue with a Nazi parade and also to irrationality make excuses for Thai people doing that.

Next ...

[Jingthing]

Brilliant.

[Nisa]

Brilliant.

You have to admit that your serious and rather intense and scrutinizing response as well as your attempt to engage me as if the my comments were not light hearted sarcasm was actually considerably more funny than my levity.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[SteeleJoe]

Actually I did watch this strange move in English about a past famous Portuguese or Spanish explorer that was instrumental in Thai history but can't remember much more even though I found it interesting enough to see it twice.

Won't go off on a lengthy off topic tangent but that would be Constantine Phaulkon (who later became Chao Phraya Wichayen -- Chao Phya was an extremely high rank in the Royal Court) . He was Greek.

It wouldn't have been off topic at all if he'd been German ... or Jewish or wore kinky uniforms. Did he have any influence on Siam financial matters, by any chance?

Kinky Phaulkon? He was influential in Siamese financial matters, in a number of ways over a number of years. As SJ said, Constantine Phaulkon rose extremely high in the court of King Narai in 1680's Ayudhya. In 1688 Phaulkon was put to death by Narai's successor, King Phetracha, for plotting to deliver the kingdom into the hands of France. Source: David Wyatt's 'Thailand, A Short history'.

It should be noted that that was what Phaulkon was accused of. It is not at all clear that he was guilty of it and it's more than plausible that he was framed so as to be removed as an obstacle (and maybe even partly out of anger and jealousy that a Farang got to where he was -- as this sentiment was prevalent in the court) -- given Petchara's ostensible anger about the foreign influence and King Narai's tolerance of and accommodation with Europeans.

He was after all, only arrested and accused as Petchara began his coup in which he killed the rightful heir to the throne and justified it all as protecting Ayutthaya from the foriegners -- whom he proceeded to expel (and after which Siam severed relations with Europe for the next century or so).

Edited September 30, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[siamiam]

So, while my posts may not go away, it seems your ability to comprehend what is written in outside links does.

Again, I will leave it up to the judgment of OBJECTIVE readers about the obvious games you are playing here. Debating with you is like wrestling an oiled Anaconda. In any case, yes too many Thais don't know enough of the real story of what the Nazis represent. No, its not the most important issue around, but it's the one we are talking about, not swastikas.

Actually, the swastika side-topic of this thread was probably just as important as the main topic. Equal to the ignorance of those involved in the CM parade, is the ignorance by some that the swastika is used in this part of the world as a religious non-nazi-associated symbol. That is the kind of ignorance that can get people killed. Now, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Nisa and others, some of that ignorance has been dispelled.

[siamiam]

Mr. Phaulkon? He was influential in Siamese financial matters, in a number of ways over a number of years. As SJ said, Constantine Phaulkon rose extremely high in the court of King Narai in 1680's Ayudhya. In 1688 Phaulkon was put to death by Narai's successor, King Phetracha, for plotting to deliver the kingdom into the hands of France. Source: David Wyatt's 'Thailand, A Short history'.

It should be noted that that was what Phaulkon was accused of. It is not at all clear that he was guilty of it and it's more than plausible that he was framed so as to be removed as an obstacle (and maybe even partly out of anger and jealousy that a Farang got to where he was -- as this sentiment was prevalent in the court) -- given Petchara's ostensible anger about the foreign influence and King Narai's tolerance of and accommodation with Europeans.

He was after all, only arrested and accused as Petchara began his coup in which he killed the rightful heir to the throne and justified it all as protecting Ayutthaya from the foriegners -- whom he proceeded to expel (and after which Siam severed relations with Europe for the next century or so).

Indeed.

reason for edit: Mr. Phaulkon

Edited September 30, 2011 by siamiam

[SteeleJoe]

Kinky Phaulkon? He was influential in Siamese financial matters, in a number of ways over a number of years. As SJ said, Constantine Phaulkon rose extremely high in the court of King Narai in 1680's Ayudhya. In 1688 Phaulkon was put to death by Narai's successor, King Phetracha, for plotting to deliver the kingdom into the hands of France. Source: David Wyatt's 'Thailand, A Short history'.

It should be noted that that was what Phaulkon was accused of. It is not at all clear that he was guilty of it and it's more than plausible that he was framed so as to be removed as an obstacle (and maybe even partly out of anger and jealousy that a Farang got to where he was -- as this sentiment was prevalent in the court) -- given Petchara's ostensible anger about the foreign influence and King Narai's tolerance of and accommodation with Europeans.

He was after all, only arrested and accused as Petchara began his coup in which he killed the rightful heir to the throne and justified it all as protecting Ayutthaya from the foriegners -- whom he proceeded to expel (and after which Siam severed relations with Europe for the next century or so).

Indeed.

Feeling awkward about the off-topic nature of the post I sort of tried to rush through it while still including what I thought pertinent; so it came out even more poorly written than my usual efforts...but glad you at least knew what I was talking about -- and I wasn't trying to correct you, only to elaborate for others reading your post (I figured if you knew the topic, you probably knew the stuff I was saying).

By the way, i forgot to say earlier...

No worries but thanks for the explanation: It did seem like you were trying to give me a history lesson about the svastika (though completely I believe you when you say you weren't) but in truth even if you had been, i should have ignored it. It is to my discredit that I feel condescended to and get annoyed when I think someone assumes I don't know something about which I've gone to the effort of learning about and perhaps take a modicum of pride in that knowledge (minor though it may be -- I'm not an expert either but like you I've done some reading o the subject).

[siamiam]

(I figured if you knew the topic, you probably knew the stuff I was saying).

Likewise, with the swastika, Kharoshti, Prakrit, etc

I couldn't remember if the French that Phaulkon had purportedly been in league with had ever acknowledged (after the fact) his guilt.

I wouldn't want my friendly banter (e.g. Kinky) to be construed as a lack of respect for Mr. Phaulkon on my part. As you say, he may be guilty of nothing more than being a very capable man.

[Jingthing]

So, while my posts may not go away, it seems your ability to comprehend what is written in outside links does.

Again, I will leave it up to the judgment of OBJECTIVE readers about the obvious games you are playing here. Debating with you is like wrestling an oiled Anaconda. In any case, yes too many Thais don't know enough of the real story of what the Nazis represent. No, its not the most important issue around, but it's the one we are talking about, not swastikas.

Actually, the swastika side-topic of this thread was probably just as important as the main topic. Equal to the ignorance of those involved in the CM parade, is the ignorance by some that the swastika is used in this part of the world as a religious non-nazi-associated symbol. That is the kind of ignorance that can get people killed. Now, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Nisa and others, some of that ignorance has been dispelled.

That's rich. The non-Nazi swastika thing has been talked about hundreds of times for YEARS on this board. It is totally off topic to THIS thread. But glad you feel you've accomplished so much by rehashing an old story. People are getting killed because they can't tell the difference between a Nazi swastika and a religious one? Oh please, that is truly absurd. Also anyone spending time in Asia learns about that very quickly if they didn't know about it already from this amazing thing called EDUCATION.

Again, back to reality.

Were the students in the CM Nazi parade wearing Nazi swastikas (and other Nazi type attire) or religious garb? Answer -- NAZI

Did the students think they were wearing Nazi swastikas (and other Nazi type attire) or religious garb? Answer -- NAZI obviously!

Did the people reacting negatively to the Nazi parade confuse Nazi symbols with religious symbols by mistake? Answer -- No, they saw Nazi symbols and they were correct.

Enough about the swastikas! It's been a totally irrelevant obfuscation from the actual issue and event.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[siamiam]

Actually, the swastika side-topic of this thread was probably just as important as the main topic. Equal to the ignorance of those involved in the CM parade, is the ignorance by some that the swastika is used in this part of the world as a religious non-nazi-associated symbol. That is the kind of ignorance that can get people killed. Now, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Nisa and others, some of that ignorance has been dispelled.

That's rich. The non-Nazi swastika thing has been talked about hundreds of times for YEARS on this board. It is totally off topic to THIS thread. But glad you feel you've accomplished so much by rehashing an old story. People are getting killed because they can't tell the difference between a Nazi swastika and a religious one? Oh please, that is truly absurd. Also anyone spending time in Asia learns about that very quickly if they didn't know about it already from this amazing thing called EDUCATION.

Again, back to reality.

Were the students in the CM Nazi parade wearing Nazi swastikas (and other Nazi type attire) or religious garb? Answer -- NAZI

Did the students think they were wearing Nazi swastikas (and other Nazi type attire) or religious garb? Answer -- NAZI obviously!

Did the people reacting negatively to the Nazi parade confuse Nazi symbols with religious symbols by mistake? Answer -- No, they saw Nazi symbols and they were correct.

Enough about the swastikas! It's been a totally irrelevant obfuscation from the actual issue and event.

"But glad you feel you've accomplished so much by rehashing an old story."

That is all it was meant to be, a simple reminder of the difference between people that use swastakas. Made simply to possibly save an innocent person a violent experience. You say you are glad that we revisited this, but you don't mean it. You are angry because you think we have tried to highjack THIS thread. YOUR thread. The reminder that I and others had issued here, would have taken a fraction of one of these 46 topic pages. That's all. Maybe the zealous responses against these well intentioned reminders are because, taken out of context, they may seem like an attempt to dilute the seriousness of your feelings regarding the incident in Chiang Mai. But, after reading so many of these zealous responses, I don't think this is the case. I think you are simply zealots. Nothing I say to you will resonate with you. What I have said already is more than enough to allow a reasonable person to understand my few posts on this thread. I can tell you that while I am not Jewish, my relatives were killed by Franco and Hitler, et al, in Guernica, Spain and that because of this I can share your feelings. That will not persuade you that my intensions here have not been at odds with yours. Nothing will persuade you. The important thing to me is that the difference between people who use swastikas has been revisited. I wish you well and I leave you to your thread.

[flying]

"But glad you feel you've accomplished so much by rehashing an old story."

That is all it was meant to be, a simple reminder of the difference between people that use swastakas. Made simply to possibly save an innocent person a violent experience. You say you are glad that we revisited this, but you don't mean it. You are angry because you think we have tried to highjack THIS thread. YOUR thread. The reminder that I and others had issued here, would have taken a fraction of one of these 46 topic pages. That's all. Maybe the zealous responses against these well intentioned reminders are because, taken out of context, they may seem like an attempt to dilute the seriousness of your feelings regarding the incident in Chiang Mai. But, after reading so many of these zealous responses, I don't think this is the case. I think you are simply zealots. Nothing I say to you will resonate with you. What I have said already is more than enough to allow a reasonable person to understand my few posts on this thread. I can tell you that while I am not Jewish, my relatives were killed by Franco and Hitler, et al, in Guernica, Spain and that because of this I can share your feelings. That will not persuade you that my intensions here have not been at odds with yours. Nothing will persuade you. The important thing to me is that the difference between people who use swastikas has been revisited. I wish you well and I leave you to your thread.

[Jingthing]

That is all it was meant to be, a simple reminder of the difference between people that use swastakas. Made simply to possibly save an innocent person a violent experience.

...

The reminder that I and others had issued here, would have taken a fraction of one of these 46 topic pages.

I just did a quick search of this thread. Swastika was in NINETY-SIX posts in this thread. Most of the content was about how swastikas aren't always Nazi symbols. Not a tiny fraction of thread. Why? As stated, in the CM parade nobody was confused about whether they were representing Nazis or religion.

Now I don't doubt some westerners get annoyed when they see clear Nazi symbols worn as fashion in Asia (as opposed to religious swastikas which most Asian savvy westerners can identify). But in those cases, those ARE Nazi symbols but the wearers usually don't mean to be expressing anything political. Again, not related to religious swastikas.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[MaxYakov]

So, while my posts may not go away, it seems your ability to comprehend what is written in outside links does.

Again, I will leave it up to the judgment of OBJECTIVE readers about the obvious games you are playing here. Debating with you is like wrestling an oiled Anaconda. In any case, yes too many Thais don't know enough of the real story of what the Nazis represent. No, its not the most important issue around, but it's the one we are talking about, not swastikas.

Actually, the swastika side-topic of this thread was probably just as important as the main topic. Equal to the ignorance of those involved in the CM parade, is the ignorance by some that the swastika is used in this part of the world as a religious non-nazi-associated symbol. That is the kind of ignorance that can get people killed. Now, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Nisa and others, some of that ignorance has been dispelled.

That's rich. The non-Nazi swastika thing has been talked about hundreds of times for YEARS on this board. It is totally off topic to THIS thread. But glad you feel you've accomplished so much by rehashing an old story. People are getting killed because they can't tell the difference between a Nazi swastika and a religious one? Oh please, that is truly absurd. Also anyone spending time in Asia learns about that very quickly if they didn't know about it already from this amazing thing called EDUCATION.

Again, back to reality.

Were the students in the CM Nazi parade wearing Nazi swastikas (and other Nazi type attire) or religious garb? Answer -- NAZI

Did the students think they were wearing Nazi swastikas (and other Nazi type attire) or religious garb? Answer -- NAZI obviously!

Did the people reacting negatively to the Nazi parade confuse Nazi symbols with religious symbols by mistake? Answer -- No, they saw Nazi symbols and they were correct.

Enough about the swastikas! It's been a totally irrelevant obfuscation from the actual issue and event.

Second that. Implored Nira (aka Superman) to cease with the swastika nonsense myself and it transmogrified into a peeing contest about the Viet Nam war and the inequities of the US penal system.

[metisdead]

Apparently last night I did not delete enough off topic posts (guilty), I have now gone back and done a lot more deletions. If your intent is to spin off topic hyperbole, don't bother posting.

Edit to add: Off topic posts will continue to be removed.

[softgeorge]

I think the whole world is getting over sensitive and ruled by political correctness. There is not a single thing that anyone will do that will not offend someone else and have them up in arms. I think the world should just take a chill pill and lighten up. I went to a fancy dress birthday party a couple of months ago and a couple, nice people who wouldn't disrespect anyone came along in togas. Well had one woman who got in a real tiff claiming it was disrespectful to christians and represented the Romans feeding Christians to the lions. No matter what anyone does or says there is always someone who will find it in some way wrong.

[Nisa]

I think the whole world is getting over sensitive and ruled by political correctness. There is not a single thing that anyone will do that will not offend someone else and have them up in arms. I think the world should just take a chill pill and lighten up. I went to a fancy dress birthday party a couple of months ago and a couple, nice people who wouldn't disrespect anyone came along in togas. Well had one woman who got in a real tiff claiming it was disrespectful to christians and represented the Romans feeding Christians to the lions. No matter what anyone does or says there is always someone who will find it in some way wrong.

[uptheos]

Well had one woman who got in a real tiff claiming it was disrespectful to christians and represented the Romans feeding Christians to the lions.

I guess she was well pissed eh?

What did you go as?

Edited October 1, 2011 by uptheos

[Nisa]

That is all it was meant to be, a simple reminder of the difference between people that use swastakas. Made simply to possibly save an innocent person a violent experience.

...

The reminder that I and others had issued here, would have taken a fraction of one of these 46 topic pages.

I just did a quick search of this thread. Swastika was in NINETY-SIX posts in this thread. Most of the content was about how swastikas aren't always Nazi symbols. Not a tiny fraction of thread. Why? As stated, in the CM parade nobody was confused about whether they were representing Nazis or religion.

Now I don't doubt some westerners get annoyed when they see clear Nazi symbols worn as fashion in Asia (as opposed to religious swastikas which most Asian savvy westerners can identify). But in those cases, those ARE Nazi symbols but the wearers usually don't mean to be expressing anything political. Again, not related to religious swastikas.

Have you noticed that you seem to condemn the topic of other people speaking about the Swastika in the same posts you are adding your two-cents on the swastika.

But more interesting is you keep arguing as if somebody has suggested the kids fancy dress could be confused with representing religious swastikas. Did I miss this post?

You might first want to go back and read the posts about swastikas to understand the posters intent and reason for speaking about the swastika before declaring them off topic .... especially considering these kids wore swastikas along with other symbols that represent Nazis and this is largely what the topic is about.

I'm not disagreeing that the subject has been beat to death but just find it interesting you add your thoughts on the swastika while condemning others for doing the same and believing posters I saying something they are not (at least not that I have seen here).

[MaxYakov]

Well had one woman who got in a real tiff claiming it was disrespectful to christians and represented the Romans feeding Christians to the lions.

I guess she was well pissed eh?

What did you go as?

I see this thread has gone to the Lions as well. Will the last one out get the lights, please.

[Oberkommando]

Thais make typical error of poor judgement due to lack of sensitivity, education, etc.

Thais rightly admonished for idiocy, insensitivity and crass behaviour.

Yet some foreigners continue to try to defend absolutely everything they do without question. It's like Stockholm Syndrome on steroids.

[softgeorge]

Well had one woman who got in a real tiff claiming it was disrespectful to christians and represented the Romans feeding Christians to the lions.

I guess she was well pissed eh?

What did you go as?

Well I best not say as some on here will jump on me from great hieghts

[animatic]

There was no swastika confusion in that parade,

The swastikas were at 45 degrees nazi angle not the regional 90 - 180 degrees.

There was no confusing the word nazism on a poster, or the nazi uniforms, parody characters on the poster and Hitler moustache on the girl.

It was clearly intended to be Nazi Germany, and no amount of distracting spin can turn that fact on it's head.

There was an obvious lack of any education about WWII involved, and lest we say this is Asia, the Nazi were partners with Japan in the Axis, and so not unknown to the world here. This is a cock-up on the kids and schools part, but also on the whole nation, because the culture should have told them to care enough to check what they were doing on such a grand scale.

And this is not some single twit complaining about Toga's, 2000 year past historical Romans and Christians, but a whole crew of kids marching in a public ceremony, parading symbols of one of the most horrendous examples of mans inhumanity to man, in modern times, with blithe disregard, or non-existant caring about what those symbols meant.

Edited October 1, 2011 by animatic

[Nisa]

I tend to agree with the Israeli Embassy and believe there was no bad intent and this is a simply the result of the general Education Curriculum, in some parts of Asia, doesn't cover the war in Europe the same as in the West.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Nisa

[uptheos]

I tend to agree with the Israeli Embassy and believe there was no bad intent and this is a simply the result of the general Education Curriculum, in some parts of Asia, doesn't cover the war in Europe the same as in the West.

Absolutely - piss poor educational system and ignorance.

[StreetCowboy]

There was no swastika confusion in that parade,

The swastikas were at 45 degrees nazi angle not the regional 90 - 180 degrees.

There was no confusing the word nazism on a poster, or the nazi uniforms and Hitler moustache.

It was clearly intended to be Nazi Germany and no spin can turn that fact on it's head.

There was an obvious lack of any education about WWII involved, and lest we say this is Asia, the Nazi were partners with Japan in the Axis, and so not unknown to the world here. This is a cock-up on the kids and schools part, but also on the whole nation, because the culture should have told them to care enough check what they were doing on such a grand scale.

And this is not some single twit complaining about Toga's, 200 years historical Romans and Christians, but a whole crew of kids marching in a public ceremony, parading symbols of one of the most horrendous examples of mans inhumanity to man, in modern times, with blithe disregard, or non-existant caring about what those symbols meant.

Do you think that they should pay reparations?

SC

[Nisa]

There was no swastika confusion in that parade,

The swastikas were at 45 degrees nazi angle not the regional 90 - 180 degrees.

There was no confusing the word nazism on a poster, or the nazi uniforms and Hitler moustache.

It was clearly intended to be Nazi Germany and no spin can turn that fact on it's head.

There was an obvious lack of any education about WWII involved, and lest we say this is Asia, the Nazi were partners with Japan in the Axis, and so not unknown to the world here. This is a cock-up on the kids and schools part, but also on the whole nation, because the culture should have told them to care enough check what they were doing on such a grand scale.

And this is not some single twit complaining about Toga's, 200 years historical Romans and Christians, but a whole crew of kids marching in a public ceremony, parading symbols of one of the most horrendous examples of mans inhumanity to man, in modern times, with blithe disregard, or non-existant caring about what those symbols meant.

Do you think that they should pay reparations?

SC

LOL ... I almost spit out my drink.