Able To Teach English With No Teaching Quals?.

[xylophone]

Whilst in Phuket I noticed ads encouraging expats to obtain a basic qualification in order to allow them to teach English. Is this possible?.

For example, could a tertiary educated English speaking expat, who has held senior positions in multi-national corporations, find a part time position teaching the basics of the English language?.

[taxexile]

could a part time teacher of basic english get a job holding a senior position in a multi-national corporation??

[Ijustwannateach]

This issue is a dead horse that's been beaten many times on this forum. Do a search or look down a page or so and you're bound to find another long debate on it. I'm not getting into it again here myself.

[xylophone]

could a part time teacher of basic english get a job holding a senior position in a multi-national corporation??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With respect, not the same, but don't want to enter into that discussion here. My main point concerned the obtaining of a basic qualification to teach English to say, first year students. I have seen the schoolbooks at this level and it would appear "a not too difficult task" given the correct support material etc.

[xylophone]

This issue is a dead horse that's been beaten many times on this forum.  Do a search or look down a page or so and you're bound to find another long debate on it.  I'm not getting into it again here myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the info......I have searched and found related topics. It seems I could upset some people with this question so I'll bow out of what was meant to be a well intentioned question to be able to put some of my skills to use, should I decide upon a longer term stay in Thailand.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Sorry Phil, but hereabouts there's a plague of unqualified and poorly equipped foreigners purporting to be teachers and inflicting themselves on Thai kids. It gets tiring as they query where to obtain fake tertiary diploma's etc.

[mijan24]

Whilst in Phuket I noticed ads encouraging expats to obtain a basic qualification in order to allow them to teach English. Is this possible?.

For example, could a tertiary educated English speaking expat, who has held senior positions in multi-national corporations, find a part time position teaching the basics of the English language?.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple question - deserves simple answer - Yes!

[kenkannif]

^ Same as that.

It's doable.

[chownah]

could a part time teacher of basic english get a job holding a senior position in a multi-national corporation??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With respect, not the same, but don't want to enter into that discussion here. My main point concerned the obtaining of a basic qualification to teach English to say, first year students. I have seen the schoolbooks at this level and it would appear "a not too difficult task" given the correct support material etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that your post here expresses a common misconception about teaching. You say that you have looked at a first year schoolbook and it appears to be " "a not too difficult task" given the correct support material etc." I think that what you have done is to look at the difficulty of the material to be taught and decided since it is very simple stuff that it will be easy to teach. I think it is important for people to understand that the difficulty in teaching does not come from the material to be taught...it comes from the challenge of trying to find what motivates each of the students in your class (could be up to 50 students in a class...almost assuredly more then 20 even in the best of conditions). The difficulty in teaching is knowing how to stop disruptions, focus attention, allocate time between activities, etc. The difficulty in teaching has little to do with the material being taught. Also....about "given the correct support material etc."....you are often required to create your own support materials and determine how they will be utilized...you might have to create everything from scratch....and some of the support materials that were offered to me as suggestions were in my opinion garbage....it is best to assume that everything you will be provided to use will be substandard to worthless....if not then you are lucky.

And...(I'm suggesting this to help you focus on these issues so please don't be offended)....if you think that you understand how to teach...then make a post here explaining some of the techniques you think you will use to motivate your students...what will you do with an unruly student...what will you do when you find a student cheating on an exam....maybe you could post a lesson plan for us to see.

Edited November 9, 2005 by chownah

[LindsayBKK]

This issue is a dead horse that's been beaten many times on this forum.  Do a search or look down a page or so and you're bound to find another long debate on it.  I'm not getting into it again here myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the info......I have searched and found related topics. It seems I could upset some people with this question so I'll bow out of what was meant to be a well intentioned question to be able to put some of my skills to use, should I decide upon a longer term stay in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry Philnz, just a few teachers here getting a bit upset when a new person comes along wanting to teach English and get jobs straight away. It's like working for a company and a new guy starts on the same pay as you. I am not a teacher, but I was a manager of a chemical company. Teachers pay is not great in Thailand anyway, thats why there are always jobs here cause people move on or get bored with the job. Thailand is not everybody's cup of tea.

[Ijustwannateach]

^^Great post, Chownah, and a good caution to those who think that teaching is as easy as the text.

^So which is it? Are we angry that a new person gets a job straight away because that's presumably unusual, or is it in fact easy to get a job straight away no matter what, in which case why would we be angry? And which of us happen to be angry (I don't sense any bad vibes here, myself!)?

As I said, the issue of no-quals TEFL is a dead horse flogged here many times. Those who are interested in many different points of view have plenty to choose from in past threads. My personal view is that I have nothing against it, if you'll check in those threads. It's just tiresome how often these threads show up and how exercised people become over it, and I think if no one has anything new to say then Mijan's and Ken's answers are probably answer enough.

"Steven"

[xylophone]

could a part time teacher of basic english get a job holding a senior position in a multi-national corporation??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With respect, not the same, but don't want to enter into that discussion here. My main point concerned the obtaining of a basic qualification to teach English to say, first year students. I have seen the schoolbooks at this level and it would appear "a not too difficult task" given the correct support material etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that your post here expresses a common misconception about teaching. You say that you have looked at a first year schoolbook and it appears to be " "a not too difficult task" given the correct support material etc." I think that what you have done is to look at the difficulty of the material to be taught and decided since it is very simple stuff that it will be easy to teach. I think it is important for people to understand that the difficulty in teaching does not come from the material to be taught...it comes from the challenge of trying to find what motivates each of the students in your class (could be up to 50 students in a class...almost assuredly more then 20 even in the best of conditions). The difficulty in teaching is knowing how to stop disruptions, focus attention, allocate time between activities, etc. The difficulty in teaching has little to do with the material being taught. Also....about "given the correct support material etc."....you are often required to create your own support materials and determine how they will be utilized...you might have to create everything from scratch....and some of the support materials that were offered to me as suggestions were in my opinion garbage....it is best to assume that everything you will be provided to use will be substandard to worthless....if not then you are lucky.

And...(I'm suggesting this to help you focus on these issues so please don't be offended)....if you think that you understand how to teach...then make a post here explaining some of the techniques you think you will use to motivate your students...what will you do with an unruly student...what will you do when you find a student cheating on an exam....maybe you could post a lesson plan for us to see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for the detailed response, however as I said in a previous reply, I did not want to get into this much of a discussion. However in bowing out, I will add something on my behalf, because your reply does make a few assumptions as to my capabilities, or lack thereof.

In my last position I launched a sales and service training programme across an organisation consisting of almost 4000 people. A key element in the programme was in being able to motivate these people to be able to deliver service which would result in a win/win situation, with regard to the service delivered and the increased revenue as a result of it.

In doing so I had to delegate responsibility for the ongoing delivery of this programme, which has been running now for ten years and has ensured that this organisation has grown its profit by almost 25 percent year-on-year over those years. This is a phenomenal achievement in terms of bottom line growth and would suggest that the programme is successful. In addition this particular organisation has been voted the best service delivery organisation in the country over the past eight years.

I personally delivered this programme to classes of up to 50 people at a time, with perhaps the total being in the region of some 2000 over many years. This involved workshops covering many weeks and months, not just one-off deliveries.

As you would know I had to plan the delivery, the timing and material, and had to tailor the material to specific needs of the group receiving it. This involved planning workshops, dealing with positive and negative feedback, overcoming objections, dealing with disruptive influences, organising scripting sessions and role-plays and of course putting plans in place for the ongoing success of the individuals and the programme........and last but not least, organising the follow-up programmes to make sure this happened, and overseeing them until I could hand over responsibility to other individuals whom I had trained.

Eventually this resulted in profits of many hundreds of millions of dollars for the organisation which was almost directly attributed to my skill in implementing this programme.

I then turned my attention to starting a new division within this organisation, building it up from nothing to having 35 staff, a client base of over 30,000 clients and a $2 billion funds portfolio.

I gave this position up some six months ago, because of a health concern.

My original question was borne out of the need to keep the grey matter active whilst taking a well earned and long break overseas although not wanting to undertake anything full time again, and at the same time perhaps assisting young people in their understanding of the basics of the English-language.

Having said all of this, I realise that it is somewhat of a touchy subject and no longer wish to be involved in any ongoing communication regarding the original question. Many thanks to all who have replied and kind regards, Philnz.

[Ladphrao]

Philnz

Teaching English is not the most difficult thing in the world, and with the right attitude a person can do a fairly good job while learning on the job. Most ESL/TEFL or what ever set of letters one wants to use teachers are for the most part doing it for a brief point in their lives and it is not their lives work. Many spend a year after uni teaching in Japan, Korea, or even Thailand for a year to gain some work experience, international experience and have some fun. Is there anything wrong with that? In fact, the non-professional teachers are often quite good, after they get a few weeks under their belts.

If you want to do a little part-time teaching for something to do, it doesn't sound like you need the money, then go for it. It can be rewarding at times even if the money isn't much.

I don't understand the snottiness of some "teachers." One teacher in fifty in Thailand was a professional teacher before coming to Thailand, meaning, almost all teachers start their careers here. Why knock someone who wants to do the same?

I say try it out, if you find it is something you like and want to do more seriously, then you would probably want to get a little training later on.

[kenkannif]

Yeah practice on the students.....that's a well good idea!

[Ladphrao]

kenkannif

"Yeah practice on the students.....that's a well good idea!"

Doesn't every teacher do that every day? How else does one gain experience?

What's the worst that can happen, the students have a less than a perfect teacher for a brief period in their lives?

Oh, the poor kids, will they ever be able to have a happy life after spending a few weeks with an inexperienced English teacher.

I don't understand why the opposition to someone starting something new in his life?

Haven't you ever done anything new? Haven't you ever made mistakes, learned from them and moved on?

English teaching is one of the few teaching occupations that even has teacher trainng avaiable. Have you ever heard of economics teacher-training? Or science-teacher training?

Most students in universities in the US, UK, or Australia have teachers with zero formal education in teaching, but they have some great teachers.

Are you one of those guys trying to make a fast buck with one of those sucker (ESl/TEFL/EFL/AUA/ECC or whatever) courses for newbies?

Id so, I understand your point, otherwise, I don't see why you want to discourage someone from trying something that we all known is possible and has been done by thousands before.

It isn't required that one takes oneself so seriously

[kenkannif]

At the very least he should know how not to teach mate.

I think having a kid means you kind of care about the calibre of teacher teaching them....I know I don't want someone that knows NOTHING about teaching anywhere near my kid thanks mate!

If you teach them something wrong, it can take ages (if ever) to correct the mistake.

You don't know what you're talking about I'm afraid.

If he wants to do a TEFL/TESOL/TESL/CELTA or whatever....up to him, but get some kind of training (some schools offer very basic FREE training) before you go in the classroom for the students' sake. Or volunteer and make them aware you haven't got a clue as to what you're doing.

Edited November 10, 2005 by kenkannif

[Ladphrao]

kenkannif

"If you teach them something wrong, it can take ages (if ever) to correct the mistake."

What complete nonsense.

What could an English teacher possibly teach someone that it would be impossible to correct? Played is not the past tense of play? Coffee is spelled with only a single e? What?

Please give me an example of something an English teacher could teach someone that could have a substantially negative impact on a person's life in the normal course of teaching.

I am not disrespecting English teachers, far from it. But please, a little less pretentiousness. If you taught some one that the picture in the book was a cat when it really was a dog, you can come back the next week and correct the error without any permanent damage to the student.

Sure, every English teacher should have at a minimum a Bachelors degree in English, ESL or education, and for advanced classes a Masters should be required. But that is just living in fantasy land.

If someone is willing to let him teach a class, who are you to say he shouldn't?

My Mother taught me English without any formal education in English teaching.

My wife taught me Thai with no formal education in teaching Thai.

Learning a language from someone without formal language training can be done and it has been done countless times.

To claim otherwise is just plain silliness.

"You don't know what you're talking about I'm afraid."

please,

what makes you the "expert" on this subject over me?

[kenkannif]

Mate fossilised errors in English exist in Thailand to this day I'm afraid, by all means research.

Being taught English by your mother is basically immersion. And I assume there weren't like 10 or so other kids learning at the same time with her?

I know what I'm talking about, you don't....that makes me more of an 'expert' (which I'm not) than you.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore so please calm down, thanks! You're entitled to your views and opinions, however wrong they may be, but please don't be telling me what is the right way to teach etc. when you yourself admit you've never taught.

Hopefully you'll leave it at that and let Phil make up his own mind.

[Ladphrao]

"when you yourself admit you've never taught"

Whoa there big fella

I have never made that claim and it is false, I have taught many many different types of courses, mostly at universities and have even done a wee bit of English teaching.

"I know what I'm talking about, you don't...."

Good arguement, still didn't answer my question about backing up your statement that an English teacher can actually do harm to a student.

Just one little example where an inexerienced English teacher ruined the life of a student

Actually, I do do research, although not directly in the field of language learning.

So there.

[kenkannif]

"when you yourself admit you've never taught"

Whoa there big fella

I have never made that claim and it is false, I have taught many many different types of courses, mostly at universities and have even done a wee bit of English teaching.

But if one needs to know, I am not an English teacher but I have in the past made my living solely teaching English and I have also done it is a supplement to my income from time to time.

Fossiled errors in English are common in Asia, this is where they're taught wrong and the problem persists and quite often can be carried on to the next 'generation' as it were.

I don't think at any point I said it would ruin anyone's life.

I don't think anyone would dispute a bloke who has no background or experience in teaching and doesn't really know what they're doing should not be teaching? Or am crazy???

[mijan24]

Ladphrao the last time you entered the "Teaching English" discussion you managed to become upset with IJWT and now it's KK - mate I thinks you need to take 2 x tablespoons of castor oil it does wonders for the old SOL.

There are always two sides to an argument I hope Phil will read, sift, sort and forge on from there.

KK careful with the way you throw that word "fossil" about I thought it was me you were talking about in the first person (sic).

Edited November 10, 2005 by mijan24

[Ladphrao]

KenKannif,

What was the point in bringing out the old quote? There is no inconsistency there, except if one wants to dispute how much is “a wee bit.” In fact, I have probably done more than a “wee bit” of English teaching, but I have been upgrading my qualifications over the past years (working on a Ph.D. now) and mostly teach non-English subjects at universities as well as doing some writing and research. But I have had to “work my way” up (not that I am very high up on the ladder, but I am still trying to climb) and teaching English was a step in my life. Nothing to be ashamed of, in fact I think it has in some ways made me a better subjects teacher. English teaching is all about delivery, since we all know our native language to a fairly high degree. If one is teaching something like epistemology (no I don’t teach this subject), knowledge of the subject is more important than delivery. Having taught English reminds me not to ignore the delivery aspect of teaching.

Not all teaching is English teaching. In fact, there is a huge world of education out there beyond language teaching. Maybe you would want to learn a little about it and broaden your horizons.

I understand the fossilization point, there are a few Thai phrases I learned to use in the wrong way and I continue to do so even when I know it is incorrect, but what does this have to do with inexperienced teachers? Is there a correlation between the two? I won’t see why, since even an inexperienced teacher knows when something is said incorrectly. Show me some data, where studies show fossilization of language errors happen to a greater extent with inexperienced than experienced teachers and I will concede the point to you. Otherwise, it is just pure speculation on your part.

Even if a phrase or two is learned incorrectly, it ain’t really that big of a deal.

“I don't think anyone would dispute a bloke who has no background or experience in teaching and doesn't really know what they're doing should not be teaching? Or am crazy???”

If only teachers can teach, where will the new teachers come from? Everyone has got to start somewhere. The bloke asking the question, assuming he is not full of hot air which I have no reason to suspect he is, has already developed many of the skills one uses in a classroom, sure he will have to learn to transfer those skills to the classroom and if he decides to teach he would probably be a better teacher after doing so for six months than when starting.

Is getting some training before starting better than starting without training? Sure. No argument there.

But how much?

If one is asked who has one of those four week wonder courses, and no degree the answer is a four week wonder course.

If one is asked who has a four year degree and a four week wonder course, the answer is a four week wonder course and a degree is required.

If one is asked who has a four year degree and no four week wonder course, the answer is always the degree is important but the wonder course doesn’t mean a thing.

If one is asked who has a four year degree, a four week wonder course and some experience, one says one needs all three to be a good teacher.

If one is asked who has a four year degree in education, English, or ESL teaching, then this is the qualification one needs to be a real teacher

And so on and so on.

Nearly always the answer to the question what qualifications one should have to teach English in Thailand is the qualification of the person being asked, which may or not be what the students or school officials think.

From my experience, students could care less what qualifications an English teacher has, the students care whether the teacher is nice, fun and helps them to learn. Training can help with the last one, but if one is a grumpy old bstard, training ain’t going to make one an effective teacher

Often, from my observations, new teachers make up in enthusiasm what they lack in technique, as the enthusiasm starts to fade the technique begins to carry them through.

Ok, you can disagree with me, and if you, as I suspect, sell one of those four week wonder courses, I am sure you will.

Mijan,

What’s wrong with stirring people up a little?

From what I can see, KK and IJWT don’t have all the answers, in fact, I would take anything either one says with a rain or two of salt. They seem to have very much an attitude of excluding others out of there little English teaching club. But maybe I am being too hard on them

[chownah]

Teaching at university level is a completely different ball game than teaching at primary and secondary levels....the main difference is the maturity of the students.

[mijan24]

Mijan,

What’s wrong with stirring people up a little?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing as long as it is done in good spirit and with no intent of malice??

Chownah yes University is lecturing a topic and providing the information or references to where the information can be researched - the responsibility for sifting, sorting prioritising is the students.

Primary & Secondary teaching is a multi pronged process with the intent of imparting knowledge and hopefully confirming the message is being received.

Just my laymens take

Edited November 10, 2005 by mijan24

[Ladphrao]

Farmer,

So right. I did a little kids teaching during a transition period in my life (I have also done the Language school thing for a short time), it isn't for me. I just couldn't come up with something new and fun everyday.

Teachers should find what fits their personalities, there are plenty of jobs (well at least here in BKK, not sure about where the baan nawk boy here is staying) teaching different groups.

Teaching kids English generally pays a bit more, but that is because fewer people enjoy it I suspect.

But in my opinion, kids teaching is almost all about personality and effort, not formal qualifications. Sure one can learn a few tricks about classroom management in formal education, but if one cares and puts in the effort and has the right personality, one will become a good kids teacher, if one doesn't put in the effort or have the right personality, one will sck as a kids teacher.

My heart was never in teaching English, oh I can get the job done and have never been fired from a ESL job, but I much prefer what I am doing now. But to each his own, I have the highest respect for those who can do a good job teaching the young ones.

[mijan24]

"but if one cares and puts in the effort and has the right personality, one will become a good kids teacher"

For me Yes a very good point.

[mijan24]

could a part time teacher of basic english get a job holding a senior position in a multi-national corporation??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

taxetile Remember TiT.

Ques: could a part time teacher of basic english get a job holding a senior position

in a multi-national corporation??

Ans: In LoS Yes probably happens more than we will ever know.

sorry couldn't help myself:

Edited November 10, 2005 by mijan24

[Bluffer]

Good arguement, still didn't answer my question about backing up your statement that an English teacher can actually do harm to a student.

Just one little example where an inexerienced English teacher ruined the life of a student

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if an english teachers aim is to make people speak properly then all you need to do is speak to a lot of thai english teachers. That shows you their english level can be piss poor to average and then they pass that on to students - who if they have no better role model to follow accept the errors that were taught and add a few of their own and so on down the line.

You only have to look at some of the english translations all over the place - in signs, advertising, newspapers........... to see the "harm" done.

Isnt it funny that when someone comes out with this bs they arent actually doing the job themselves, they are always doing something else

[mbkudu]

Fossiled errors in English are common in Asia, this is where they're taught wrong and the problem persists and quite often can be carried on to the next 'generation' as it were.

I would say this is true, but the biggest perpetrators of this ongoing chain are not teachers, but the &lt;deleted&gt; that speak pidgin to simplify the language for the listener.

'Where are you going?' becomes, "Where you go?" 'I'm not hungry.' becomes,

"I no hungry." I've heard farangs speak like this countless times to Thais in public places and it is nauseating to listen to. Just keep the vocabulary simple, the structure correct and they will learn it right.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, LP, you seem to have a pretty strong opinion of me and ol' KK, despite being a newbie to TV. Who were you/are you elsewhere, or have you just been lurking here the last year or so?

If you really knew what I routinely said in my posts here, you would realise that in fact I'm pretty Catholic on the issue of qualifications. I don't regard TEFL as something that needs much more than a high school degree, decent knowledge of English, a good work ethic, some maturity, and *some* sort of training prep (which could be volunteer work or a TEFL course or just general experience). This is quite a bit lower than what I actually have. I also have said that higher levels of education or experience are helpful, though underpaid and a bit of overkill.

But here I am explaining what you should already know, assuming you read my posts paying any sort of attention... what was it Wikipedia said? "If you find yourself explaining what seems to be obvious painfully and repeatedly to someone, you are probably addressing a troll...."

"Steven"