Where Is Our Uniquely Caring Thai Society?

[prasatrandy]

a uniquely caring Thai society....very funny ..nobody gives a dam_n here about anybody else unless it's family or friends.

I think anyone who has been here for a little while has a story regarding what families are capable of doing to each other so i think you can also scrub that one from your list.

They say "it's all about family" what they mean is "It's all about what I can take from my family"

[lujanit]

The uniquely Thai society can be summed up in two words. Greed and Face. Nothing else matters.

[bumpkin]

No double standard please.

Poor people must have equal right to survive.

Rich bangkok people must share the pain, and take the water too.

Everyone must share my pain ? Whose enlightened philosophy is that ?

We must avoid the narrow-minded, politically blinkered view.

Increasing the flooded area just to share the pain, will NOT help Thailand's future prosperity

[swillowbee]

... an earlier submission notes that only Thais seem surprised by what they are witnessing in themselves, amidst this disaster ... that farang seem far less perplexed by all this ugliness.

... crisis really is a time when core values come forth ... what the world is witnessing now, really is who Thais are ... it's all here to see ... anything anyone will ever need to know about Thai people and their cultural values is on display for the world to witness.

... the 2011 Flood Crisis is the definitive case study of Thai society as a whole.

... but, of course ... we all know that case study will never, ever ... ever ... be published ... only a psychologically damaged society does this to itself.

[xthAi76s]

... this is the kind of topic that really warrants a long, and well-thought response, but nobody likes to read long posts from commenters, so I'll keep it short and try to hit the major points. And, please, I am not of the bashing Thais and Thai culture for the heck of it. I happen to think that there are astoundingly beautiful things about Thais and Thai culture, and that is much of the reason I live here. However, I am also not a push over or an apologist, and I will call things like I see them. And, no, I won't leave just because I don't like some things. I'll stay, and continue to be successful, and largely happy and complain when I choose to do so like others because --- it's my right to do so

I am very thankful that Thais are writing pieces like this, and I hope they are writing them in Thai and getting them in front of other Thais.

For some reason, Thai culture is marketed to the non-Thai world's populations as having certain positive characteristics and perhaps as having these characteristics more profoundly than many other cultures in the world, and I think after living here for some time, many foreigners tend to think this is perhaps not so. I see so much selfishness and indifference every day that it makes me wonder how they've done such a good job marketing themselves to the world as being the very opposite.

Q: Are Thais uniquely caring for one another more than other nations/cultures?

A: No, I don't think so, and here's the why.

While there are OF COURSE millions of good deeds done everyday in this beautiful country, I second a noticing of all the selfishness that the writer noted. There are all kinds of acts of selfish behavior in Thai society (and Asian society in general with the very notable exception, perhaps, of Japan).

Egalitarianism vs. Survival of the Fittest

My belief is that actually egalitarian societies are far more caring than ones that are the opposite.

Thailand is very far from egalitarian in its governing and in its socioeconomic structure. I can make the case for this argument, but I hope my statement can be largely agreed with without my needing to do so. By the very nature of a society that is more inline with survival of the fittest, people must feel the need to make sure they are OK before trying to think of someone else. And, the truth is that most of the society here is largely poor and life is not easy (despite their 'thousand' smiles -- which I will comment on briefly later).

To illustrate this with an example, think of taxes. I always ask my wife why infrastructure is so beaten all the time. Just today, I even asked about why the beach we're on (and many others) are so filthy. There are of course many reasons, but one reason for these deficiencies is because there is not really a tax base comprised of large numbers of citizens for whom paying 'societal' taxes are compulsory. People will of course pay for their trash to be picked up, but damned if they pay for someone else's; not in this survival of the fittest country.

Oddly enough, the notions of personal liberty/freedom and egalitarianism are uniquely Western European -- perhaps most famously exemplified in the USA, and in nations taking after these Western European values, if you really analyze the society more closely, I think you will conclude that the ability to, for example, give to someone freely (taxes) for which you may not ever benefit directly (but often do indirectly, of course) is one of the markers of a very caring society.

Indifference vs. Accountability

As we watch the news broadcasts, many of us are bombarded with images of Thais sometimes in their hundreds handing each other sandbags. We often hear some kind of unifying music of burden playing in the background, and we see the often smiling faces of Thais who at first glance appear unaffected by the calamity around them.

The marketers want non-Thais AND Thais alike to believe that what we are observing is the uniquely caring, helping, sacrificial society of the Thais. Unfortunately, I have another idea about this.

I am reminded of my time growing up in tough innercity NYC and certain groups of people who had/have much in common with the Thais at large. Words/phrases chosen to describe us are things like: strong, persevering, united during times of crisis, warm, etc. They struggled during the time of slavery by singing uniting songs of burden, laughing, dancing and spent great effort trying to maintain throughout the society and the world that they could handle it. After all, what else could they do at the time? Oh, that's right -- they fought and eventually surely improved their ability to chose their 'fate'.

Now, apply this example to the majority of Thais. They pass each other sand bags, smile on and off camera, donate money and supplies to each other and generally perform all kinds of wonderful, beautiful acts of kindness for their fellow man. But, I think largely live lives of indifference. Where is their fight for any number of things? Where is their demanding of 1) better governing, 2) better equality among their peoples, 3) the destruction of the self-loathing psychology (pseudo caste system they imported from Indian culture) that forces millions of them to believe they are ill able to live happily or move up their station in life as a result of their 'darker' skin, 4) the 'converse' admission of the slow and ongoing co-opting of their culture by the Chinese, etc etc etc.

Where is the fight; the passion for themselves and their fellow man? That is caring. Putting yourself in harms way to effect positive change in your society is caring. Passing sandbags 'necessary' often as a result of your indifference.

... As another example, some surveys suggest that most Thais believe corruption is OK so long as they benefit in some way. Where is the accountability? Surely, they cannot wonder why their leaders so obviously and grossly reflect this mentality, executing it ruthlessly ala their Co-opt'ers the Shinawatras.

Thais are many wonderful things, but being 'uniquely' caring is unfortunately, not a hallmark of Thai society.

... to be continued ...

[trainman34014]

Glad this was the short version....nearly nodded off !

[xthAi76s]

Glad this was the short version....nearly nodded off !

Yeah, it's a really difficult topic to keep short. But by your admission, my thanks for reading the whole thing!!!

[Guest]

Please keep on writing.

[somo]

... this is the kind of topic that really warrants a long, and well-thought response, but nobody likes to read long posts from commenters, so I'll keep it short and try to hit the major points. And, please, I am not of the bashing Thais and Thai culture for the heck of it. I happen to think that there are astoundingly beautiful things about Thais and Thai culture, and that is much of the reason I live here. However, I am also not a push over or an apologist, and I will call things like I see them. And, no, I won't leave just because I don't like some things. I'll stay, and continue to be successful, and largely happy and complain when I choose to do so like others because --- it's my right to do so

I am very thankful that Thais are writing pieces like this, and I hope they are writing them in Thai and getting them in front of other Thais.

For some reason, Thai culture is marketed to the non-Thai world's populations as having certain positive characteristics and perhaps as having these characteristics more profoundly than many other cultures in the world, and I think after living here for some time, many foreigners tend to think this is perhaps not so. I see so much selfishness and indifference every day that it makes me wonder how they've done such a good job marketing themselves to the world as being the very opposite.

Q: Are Thais uniquely caring for one another more than other nations/cultures?

A: No, I don't think so, and here's the why.

While there are OF COURSE millions of good deeds done everyday in this beautiful country, I second a noticing of all the selfishness that the writer noted. There are all kinds of acts of selfish behavior in Thai society (and Asian society in general with the very notable exception, perhaps, of Japan).

Egalitarianism vs. Survival of the Fittest

My belief is that actually egalitarian societies are far more caring than ones that are the opposite.

Thailand is very far from egalitarian in its governing and in its socioeconomic structure. I can make the case for this argument, but I hope my statement can be largely agreed with without my needing to do so. By the very nature of a society that is more inline with survival of the fittest, people must feel the need to make sure they are OK before trying to think of someone else. And, the truth is that most of the society here is largely poor and life is not easy (despite their 'thousand' smiles -- which I will comment on briefly later).

To illustrate this with an example, think of taxes. I always ask my wife why infrastructure is so beaten all the time. Just today, I even asked about why the beach we're on (and many others) are so filthy. There are of course many reasons, but one reason for these deficiencies is because there is not really a tax base comprised of large numbers of citizens for whom paying 'societal' taxes are compulsory. People will of course pay for their trash to be picked up, but damned if they pay for someone else's; not in this survival of the fittest country.

Oddly enough, the notions of personal liberty/freedom and egalitarianism are uniquely Western European -- perhaps most famously exemplified in the USA, and in nations taking after these Western European values, if you really analyze the society more closely, I think you will conclude that the ability to, for example, give to someone freely (taxes) for which you may not ever benefit directly (but often do indirectly, of course) is one of the markers of a very caring society.

Indifference vs. Accountability

As we watch the news broadcasts, many of us are bombarded with images of Thais sometimes in their hundreds handing each other sandbags. We often hear some kind of unifying music of burden playing in the background, and we see the often smiling faces of Thais who at first glance appear unaffected by the calamity around them.

The marketers want non-Thais AND Thais alike to believe that what we are observing is the uniquely caring, helping, sacrificial society of the Thais. Unfortunately, I have another idea about this.

I am reminded of my time growing up in tough innercity NYC and certain groups of people who had/have much in common with the Thais at large. Words/phrases chosen to describe us are things like: strong, persevering, united during times of crisis, warm, etc. They struggled during the time of slavery by singing uniting songs of burden, laughing, dancing and spent great effort trying to maintain throughout the society and the world that they could handle it. After all, what else could they do at the time? Oh, that's right -- they fought and eventually surely improved their ability to chose their 'fate'.

Now, apply this example to the majority of Thais. They pass each other sand bags, smile on and off camera, donate money and supplies to each other and generally perform all kinds of wonderful, beautiful acts of kindness for their fellow man. But, I think largely live lives of indifference. Where is their fight for any number of things? Where is their demanding of 1) better governing, 2) better equality among their peoples, 3) the destruction of the self-loathing psychology (pseudo caste system they imported from Indian culture) that forces millions of them to believe they are ill able to live happily or move up their station in life as a result of their 'darker' skin, 4) the 'converse' admission of the slow and ongoing co-opting of their culture by the Chinese, etc etc etc.

Where is the fight; the passion for themselves and their fellow man? That is caring. Putting yourself in harms way to effect positive change in your society is caring. Passing sandbags 'necessary' often as a result of your indifference.

... As another example, some surveys suggest that most Thais believe corruption is OK so long as they benefit in some way. Where is the accountability? Surely, they cannot wonder why their leaders so obviously and grossly reflect this mentality, executing it ruthlessly ala their Co-opt'ers the Shinawatras.

Thais are many wonderful things, but being 'uniquely' caring is unfortunately, not a hallmark of Thai society.

... to be continued ...

In a nutshell they are not the same as us. I can live with that

[Tanaka]

There's no such thing as Red Cross in Asia or 'Medicines Sans Frontier' or 'Greenpeace' or Oxfam stemming from Thailand or Asia. Indeed, I'll challenge anyone to name one such do-good organization which originates in Asia without farang backing.

Greenpeace should not be in this list. Greenpeace is a self-righteous organisation purely in existence for the benefit of their own egos, full of people with "father issues". It does little of any benefit apart from distort the truth. They are totally numerically illiterate. The true aim of Greenpeace is to "make them wrong", not to help society. They will attack ANY progress and defend any nonsensical alternative no matter how absurd or impractical. Whist they sometimes get it right (out of pure statistical chance), they cloud the vast majority of issues with absurd negativity with little or no basis - the truth behind it being they just want to make "someone" wrong even when there is no basis for it. Nuclear power is a classic example - the best & cleanest power we have, but given bad press by these a**holes.

Did your boss in the nuclear company you work for tell you to write this or did you think you would try and impress him by doing this? Anyway try and keep on topic or open a new thread.

[philw]

+ a lot...........

[digibum]

Some people have noted the "me, me, me" aspects of Thai culture but if you really need concrete proof look no further than Thailand's treatment of the Burmese, Lao, and Cambodians. They treat these people, especially the Burmese, like sub-human. What is so uniquely caring about that?

I think what the author of the original news piece forgot is that the uniquely caring thing, if it ever was real, only applied to Thai on Thai interactions. But it was never real. Thais have a long history of violence and subjugating their own people as well as their neighbors.

However, I think it is interesting that both farang and Thai alike sort of point to a period either 10 or 20 years ago as some sort of turning point. Despite what is or isn't written in Thai history books most Thais, like the author of the article, only see the changes in recent history. Interestingly, that timeframe happens to coincide with the adoption of the internet. About 20 years ago the internet started on its journey to being a mainstream part of people's lives in many western countries. About 10 years ago Thailand started on the same journey.

The internet opened up lines of communication that didn't previously exist. If you saw the police wrongly beating and arresting someone chances are the story didn't get past you and your circle of friends. Today, you record the entire thing on your mobile phone, upload it to YouTube and the entire world can see the cops beating down some poor guy. So what the author is seeing and what many Thais are seeing today is really what has been happening for much longer than just the last 10 or 20 years. The difference is that it's being broadcast to the world. People are uploading photos, videos, and blogging about the inequalities, injustices, and uniquely uncaringness that many Thais demonstrate against each other.

Because the one thing that has held Thailand together is the head in the sand attitude. The reason people didn't notice everything that is wrong in Thai society and with Thai culture is because they prefer not to know. They could easily just bury their head in the sand and keep on preaching the image of Thai people as these super-Buddhists who are the envy of the world. But when the internet began to take off and the real images and real stories started to reach wider and wider audiences it became too hard to ignore.

My wife (who is Thai) is basically computer illiterate. Doing the most basic tasks on the computer makes her head explode. Yet, her and her friends are constantly gossiping about things that have made their way into the social consciousness via the internet. She's constantly bringing me videos or news stories friends of hers have told her about that they found on the internet. Whether it be goofy stuff like a YouTube video of a cat riding a dog or more serious issues, she's hearing about them from friends and then forcing herself to go look it up for herself on the internet.

The point is that as Thailand becomes more connected, as information begins to flow more freely, Thais are being forced to see Thailand and Thai culture for the good and the bad. They're being bombarded with images, videos, and messages showing them a side of Thai people that they had previously been able to ignore.

And it is having a major impact on society. My wife loves her Thainess. She wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. But, I've noticed more and more her questioning things that she used to blindly accept. She's more critical of Thai people than she used to be. She is less prone to making up silly excuses to explain away incongruencies between what is preached as Thai culture and what is practiced as Thai culture (i.e. cops take bribes and shake down people because they don't get paid enough). She constantly questions me about stuff she's hearing and she wants to get a farang perspective.

This is what is changing in Thailand. It's not that Thais are any more or less caring or cruel than before. It's that they can no longer avoid the negative aspects of their own culture. They're being forced to confront the ugliness that often happens in Thai society.

People like the author of the article don't like this. They want to return to a time when you could just not read the newspaper or the newspaper was too full of gossip about celebrities to concern itself with actual news.

[YellowFeverCAD]

<snipped to save space only>

And it is having a major impact on society. My wife loves her Thainess. She wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. But, I've noticed more and more her questioning things that she used to blindly accept. She's more critical of Thai people than she used to be. She is less prone to making up silly excuses to explain away incongruencies between what is preached as Thai culture and what is practiced as Thai culture (i.e. cops take bribes and shake down people because they don't get paid enough). She constantly questions me about stuff she's hearing and she wants to get a farang perspective.

This is what is changing in Thailand. It's not that Thais are any more or less caring or cruel than before. It's that they can no longer avoid the negative aspects of their own culture. They're being forced to confront the ugliness that often happens in Thai society.

People like the author of the article don't like this. They want to return to a time when you could just not read the newspaper or the newspaper was too full of gossip about celebrities to concern itself with actual news.

I like the gist of your post and agree with it almost entirely. I just wanted to jump in and say that my wife went through what you talk about with your wife but a few years ago. My wife now very much dislikes many things she sees everyday in Thailand and she will not take any of it sitting down anymore. We are relocating to the West as she has spent time there and much prefers it to Thailand now. I do remember many years ago my wife trotting out the old "Its the Thai way you can not understand" she hasn't said that in years and knows that is just a way of not accepting the selfishness and short comings of too many of her fellow Thais. When we first went to the West she talked about how much she missed home, with each trip she said it less and less. When we made plans to leave Thailand she talked about coming back every year no matter what. Now the time has come to leave and she says she will come back when she makes it back, no plans and no concern about when that might be. I asked once what happened to so alter her thinking and she could not point to anyone thing, but one of the things she said in the chat was interesting, she said in the West it appears they have TOO many rules.. but she now accepts that for a society to function in a worthwhile manner Too many rules is better than NO rules.

Thailand is the wild west, every man, woman and child for themselves...

[digibum]

<snipped to save space only>

And it is having a major impact on society. My wife loves her Thainess. She wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. But, I've noticed more and more her questioning things that she used to blindly accept. She's more critical of Thai people than she used to be. She is less prone to making up silly excuses to explain away incongruencies between what is preached as Thai culture and what is practiced as Thai culture (i.e. cops take bribes and shake down people because they don't get paid enough). She constantly questions me about stuff she's hearing and she wants to get a farang perspective.

This is what is changing in Thailand. It's not that Thais are any more or less caring or cruel than before. It's that they can no longer avoid the negative aspects of their own culture. They're being forced to confront the ugliness that often happens in Thai society.

People like the author of the article don't like this. They want to return to a time when you could just not read the newspaper or the newspaper was too full of gossip about celebrities to concern itself with actual news.

I like the gist of your post and agree with it almost entirely. I just wanted to jump in and say that my wife went through what you talk about with your wife but a few years ago. My wife now very much dislikes many things she sees everyday in Thailand and she will not take any of it sitting down anymore. We are relocating to the West as she has spent time there and much prefers it to Thailand now. I do remember many years ago my wife trotting out the old "Its the Thai way you can not understand" she hasn't said that in years and knows that is just a way of not accepting the selfishness and short comings of too many of her fellow Thais. When we first went to the West she talked about how much she missed home, with each trip she said it less and less. When we made plans to leave Thailand she talked about coming back every year no matter what. Now the time has come to leave and she says she will come back when she makes it back, no plans and no concern about when that might be. I asked once what happened to so alter her thinking and she could not point to anyone thing, but one of the things she said in the chat was interesting, she said in the West it appears they have TOO many rules.. but she now accepts that for a society to function in a worthwhile manner Too many rules is better than NO rules.

Thailand is the wild west, every man, woman and child for themselves...

I think our wives may be very much alike. :-) She was as Thai as they get and would defend Thais, Thailand, and Thai culture regardless of how insane her argument but more and more she distances herself from other Thais. It's kind of sad because you can see and hear sort of a subtle submission to how messed up things are in Thailand.

In fact, some long-lost relative contacted her out of the blue recently and said they wanted to meet sometime. It's an aunt of hers that she hasn't seen since she was an infant who suddenly, and for seemingly no reason, crawled out from under a rock somewhere and now wants to come see her. My scam radar went off immediately but I've been around Thailand long enough not to say anything. My wife asked me "Well, what do you think I should do?" I said, "You should do what you want to do. If you want to meet her then meet her. If not, tell her you can't." My wife's response was, "I know what you're thinking and I'm thinking the same thing too. Why now? Where was she when I was growing up? How do I know she won't try to kidnap me or kill me or something? Maybe she wants to meet me because I have a farang husband and she can ask for money. Thai people do stuff like that." You can hear it in her voice that it pains her to admit that about her fellow Thais but at the same time she knows she would be an idiot not to be concerned.

[YellowFeverCAD]

In fact, some long-lost relative contacted her out of the blue recently and said they wanted to meet sometime. It's an aunt of hers that she hasn't seen since she was an infant who suddenly, and for seemingly no reason, crawled out from under a rock somewhere and now wants to come see her. My scam radar went off immediately but I've been around Thailand long enough not to say anything. My wife asked me "Well, what do you think I should do?" I said, "You should do what you want to do. If you want to meet her then meet her. If not, tell her you can't." My wife's response was, "I know what you're thinking and I'm thinking the same thing too. Why now? Where was she when I was growing up? How do I know she won't try to kidnap me or kill me or something? Maybe she wants to meet me because I have a farang husband and she can ask for money. Thai people do stuff like that." You can hear it in her voice that it pains her to admit that about her fellow Thais but at the same time she knows she would be an idiot not to be concerned.

Goodness that sounds like a number of different encounters we had with long lost family members after the Farang joined.. and much as you say my wife is now very much in the same frame of mind of not trusting first and asking questions later.. one of the bigger reasons we are leaving for good is our kids no chance in hell I would educate them here, well ok pretty hard to educate anybody here but you know what I mean.. my wife no firmly says she hopes our boys NEVER go back to Thailand and she has already said she could care less if they keep up their Thai language skills.. so she has pretty much washed her hands of most Thais

[Gweiloman]

Ha you look at Thai society and its brutal, uncaring and full of hypocrisy, lets not even mention the temples etc its all one big farce.

Could you elaborate more on the temple issue?

[plumeria]

Many Thais r not truly nice people anymore and u can all argue the fact but after nearly 20 yrs here they have changed beyond belief maybe learning the western ways then going overboard picking the bad habits but I live with it and accept it but it is truly my opinion honest and true..

Sad but true.

Over the past 50 years Thailand has changed -- a lot.

There has been a lot of development and modernization but Thailand is not better, just more convenient.

They were sold globalization and the rich and powerful bought it because it made them even richer and more powerful.

Every person in the country is deeply in debt either personally or collectively and usually both.

The wealth is not real. It is borrowed against the future.

They've robbed the piggy banks of their children and grandchildren, absorbed all the bad characteristics of the world's dominant imperialist cultures and lost faith and confidence in their ability to chart their own course and find their own way.

They've lost their national identity.

So this writer is just recognizing and trying to come to grips with the fact Thailand has lost it's soul.

It started when they sold out to the Americans and took big money from them to allow B-52 bombers and F-16s to bomb the hell out of their neighbors.

After the US lost the war, Thailand agonized over the path ahead and got the US military bases out.

Things went fairly well on their non-aligned path until about PM Chatchai and after him the continual gang rape of the country by it's leadership has been going on at a frenzied pace.

I kept waiting for a good person to rise up in the public sector and lead the country with a goal and vision. One or two people looked promising but either ran out of energy or were effectively neutralized by the rich and powerful with a different agenda like Taksin.

So we are screwed.

And it's very depressing.

Half a century ago, there were signs everywhere reminding Thais that "Children are the Future of the Country".

A couple decades ago those all disappeared.

Now Thais feebly hope but don't even dare make signs saying: "Maybe our Grandchildren will be Able to Sort Out This Mess".

The future is dark because "without a vision the people perish". It's a promise.

Greedy materialism is not a vision, not a destination, not a solution. It's fake.

Unless some Thai can figure out Thailand's place in the world and the mission of the country and chart the future of the country in an enlightened way, the situation will continue to go from bad to worse.

[DocN]

Every country has a concoction of believes and myths that their citizens take for the truth about their "unique" national identity. In France it it "equality and fraternity", in Australia "fair go for all and Aussie mate hood", in Germany "superior race and German hard work", in USA "best country in the world and individual freedom", in China, Korea, Japan, Russia, Israel and many others "we are special and smarter than everybody else". So, "uniquely caring Thai society" is part of same-same bullshit. All nationalism/chauvinism is bad fiction as it fuels intolerance and hate of others.

Exactly, which North American country is it that the current leader always say is the"greatest country in the world" at regular intervals.

Being German I also would like to know, when you heard "superior race and German hard work" for the last time....

[Payboy]

If this isn't caring, what is?

[thaibeachlovers]

a uniquely caring Thai society....very funny ..nobody gives a dam_n here about anybody else unless it's family or friends.

Any disaster here is mostly seen as an opportunity to make a profit by those in the position to exploit the situation.

Where are all the super-rich Thais donating I wonder ??? - Oh yes - they are making money by supplying the relieve goods bought for cash donated by the average Somchai.

and regarding the flooding - Whats new?

I read a book called "Profit and Loss" published in the 1970's about a Hamburg,Germany based tropical wood trader in the 60's - apart from the "influential" people and corruption involved in the destruction of the Thai forests it deals with the yearly flooding of Bangkok during the rainy season and how the influential and rich made sure certain areas of Bangkok never flooded because the water was diverted into areas away from the "important, rich and influential" people.

This was in the 1960's - 50+ years have passed and nothing has changed!

I have to agree. It sounds sweet to say the phrase "a uniquely caring Thai society" but it doesn't reflect reality. Thais are perhaps a bit more 'caring' of others than Chinese, but that's like saying that Thais use a bit less MSG than the Chinese. Which countries consistently go out of their way and donate to the well being of other countries - in personnel, funding and donations? It's the US and western European countries, and not just because they're comparatively rich. There's no such thing as Red Cross in Asia or 'Medicines Sans Frontier' or 'Greenpeace' or Oxfam stemming from Thailand or Asia. Indeed, I'll challenge anyone to name one such do-good organization which originates in Asia without farang backing.

There's a certain "unusually rich" Thai individual residing in Dubai that purports to "love" Thai people. Anyone care to guess how many of his billions he has donated to the flood relief?

[DocN]

a uniquely caring Thai society....very funny ..nobody gives a dam_n here about anybody else unless it's family or friends.

Any disaster here is mostly seen as an opportunity to make a profit by those in the position to exploit the situation.

Where are all the super-rich Thais donating I wonder ??? - Oh yes - they are making money by supplying the relieve goods bought for cash donated by the average Somchai.

and regarding the flooding - Whats new?

I read a book called "Profit and Loss" published in the 1970's about a Hamburg,Germany based tropical wood trader in the 60's - apart from the "influential" people and corruption involved in the destruction of the Thai forests it deals with the yearly flooding of Bangkok during the rainy season and how the influential and rich made sure certain areas of Bangkok never flooded because the water was diverted into areas away from the "important, rich and influential" people.

This was in the 1960's - 50+ years have passed and nothing has changed!

I have to agree. It sounds sweet to say the phrase "a uniquely caring Thai society" but it doesn't reflect reality. Thais are perhaps a bit more 'caring' of others than Chinese, but that's like saying that Thais use a bit less MSG than the Chinese. Which countries consistently go out of their way and donate to the well being of other countries - in personnel, funding and donations? It's the US and western European countries, and not just because they're comparatively rich. There's no such thing as Red Cross in Asia or 'Medicines Sans Frontier' or 'Greenpeace' or Oxfam stemming from Thailand or Asia. Indeed, I'll challenge anyone to name one such do-good organization which originates in Asia without farang backing.

There's a certain "unusually rich" Thai individual residing in Dubai that purports to "love" Thai people. Anyone care to guess how many of his billions he has donated to the flood relief?

How about others who make billions on the "poor" or state how much they love the Thai people?

[thaibeachlovers]

Many Thais r not truly nice people anymore and u can all argue the fact but after nearly 20 yrs here they have changed beyond belief maybe learning the western ways then going overboard picking the bad habits but I live with it and accept it but it is truly my opinion honest and true..

Sad but true.

Over the past 50 years Thailand has changed -- a lot.

There has been a lot of development and modernization but Thailand is not better, just more convenient.

They were sold globalization and the rich and powerful bought it because it made them even richer and more powerful.

Every person in the country is deeply in debt either personally or collectively and usually both.

The wealth is not real. It is borrowed against the future.

They've robbed the piggy banks of their children and grandchildren, absorbed all the bad characteristics of the world's dominant imperialist cultures and lost faith and confidence in their ability to chart their own course and find their own way.

They've lost their national identity.

So this writer is just recognizing and trying to come to grips with the fact Thailand has lost it's soul.

It started when they sold out to the Americans and took big money from them to allow B-52 bombers and F-16s to bomb the hell out of their neighbors.

After the US lost the war, Thailand agonized over the path ahead and got the US military bases out.

Things went fairly well on their non-aligned path until about PM Chatchai and after him the continual gang rape of the country by it's leadership has been going on at a frenzied pace.

I kept waiting for a good person to rise up in the public sector and lead the country with a goal and vision. One or two people looked promising but either ran out of energy or were effectively neutralized by the rich and powerful with a different agenda like Taksin.

So we are screwed.

And it's very depressing.

Half a century ago, there were signs everywhere reminding Thais that "Children are the Future of the Country".

A couple decades ago those all disappeared.

Now Thais feebly hope but don't even dare make signs saying: "Maybe our Grandchildren will be Able to Sort Out This Mess".

The future is dark because "without a vision the people perish". It's a promise.

Greedy materialism is not a vision, not a destination, not a solution. It's fake.

Unless some Thai can figure out Thailand's place in the world and the mission of the country and chart the future of the country in an enlightened way, the situation will continue to go from bad to worse.

<Every person in the country is deeply in debt either personally or collectively and usually both>

Probably true. The terrible thing is that despite the west being in the financial doodoo because of debt, Thailand seems to be heading in the same direction, not having learned anything.

The tv is full of ads trying to get Thais to borrow unsecured money from banks, good grief.

Once the flooding crisis is over, the debt crisis from people having to pay off loans despite having lost the goods bought with the credit, and the jobs to pay for the loans, is going to be horrendeous.

[Kananga]

Instead of worrying about exiled former PMs who have had their assets frozen would do, lets stop and ask why the people in Thailand who were able to assist but came up with excuses about work permits and aircraft carriers were so selfish. Whats their agenda for not doing their part for the country they call home? Hardly a role model for a caring society either.

Shameful

Edited November 3, 2011 by Kananga

[Axpat]

Instead of worrying about exiled former PMs who have had their assets frozen would do, lets stop and ask why the people in Thailand who were able to assist but came up with excuses about work permits and aircraft carriers were so selfish. Whats their agenda for not doing their part for the country they call home? Hardly a role model for a caring society either.

Shameful

Maybe some farang just don't care enough to do their part. Others perhaps can't afford to help out. Who knows the real reason they sat back and did nothing.

[thaibeachlovers]

Instead of worrying about exiled former PMs who have had their assets frozen would do, lets stop and ask why the people in Thailand who were able to assist but came up with excuses about work permits and aircraft carriers were so selfish. Whats their agenda for not doing their part for the country they call home? Hardly a role model for a caring society either.

Shameful

Maybe some farang just don't care enough to do their part. Others perhaps can't afford to help out. Who knows the real reason they sat back and did nothing.

As that is a direct attack by kananga on me, I would like to point out that sending money is also "helping", and it is not necessary to travel all the way from the north to fill sandbags to be of assistance.

Edited November 3, 2011 by thaibeachlovers

[Axpat]

Instead of worrying about exiled former PMs who have had their assets frozen would do, lets stop and ask why the people in Thailand who were able to assist but came up with excuses about work permits and aircraft carriers were so selfish. Whats their agenda for not doing their part for the country they call home? Hardly a role model for a caring society either.

Shameful

Maybe some farang just don't care enough to do their part. Others perhaps can't afford to help out. Who knows the real reason they sat back and did nothing.

As that is a direct attack by kananga on me, I would like to point out that sending money is also "helping", and it is not necessary to travel all the way from the north to fill sandbags to be of assistance.

Ok, I'll play along. How did you come to the conclusion that kananga was attacking you? If that is indeed true then you must be guilty of the accusations he is making. In which case his attack is justified. If not then he must be referring to other people and your accusations are unwarranted. No?

[swillowbee]

... this is the kind of topic that really warrants a long, and well-thought response, but nobody likes to read long posts from commenters, so I'll keep it short and try to hit the major points. And, please, I am not of the bashing Thais and Thai culture for the heck of it. I happen to think that there are astoundingly beautiful things about Thais and Thai culture, and that is much of the reason I live here. However, I am also not a push over or an apologist, and I will call things like I see them. And, no, I won't leave just because I don't like some things. I'll stay, and continue to be successful, and largely happy and complain when I choose to do so like others because --- it's my right to do so

I am very thankful that Thais are writing pieces like this, and I hope they are writing them in Thai and getting them in front of other Thais.

For some reason, Thai culture is marketed to the non-Thai world's populations as having certain positive characteristics and perhaps as having these characteristics more profoundly than many other cultures in the world, and I think after living here for some time, many foreigners tend to think this is perhaps not so. I see so much selfishness and indifference every day that it makes me wonder how they've done such a good job marketing themselves to the world as being the very opposite.

Q: Are Thais uniquely caring for one another more than other nations/cultures?

A: No, I don't think so, and here's the why.

While there are OF COURSE millions of good deeds done everyday in this beautiful country, I second a noticing of all the selfishness that the writer noted. There are all kinds of acts of selfish behavior in Thai society (and Asian society in general with the very notable exception, perhaps, of Japan).

Egalitarianism vs. Survival of the Fittest

My belief is that actually egalitarian societies are far more caring than ones that are the opposite.

Thailand is very far from egalitarian in its governing and in its socioeconomic structure. I can make the case for this argument, but I hope my statement can be largely agreed with without my needing to do so. By the very nature of a society that is more inline with survival of the fittest, people must feel the need to make sure they are OK before trying to think of someone else. And, the truth is that most of the society here is largely poor and life is not easy (despite their 'thousand' smiles -- which I will comment on briefly later).

To illustrate this with an example, think of taxes. I always ask my wife why infrastructure is so beaten all the time. Just today, I even asked about why the beach we're on (and many others) are so filthy. There are of course many reasons, but one reason for these deficiencies is because there is not really a tax base comprised of large numbers of citizens for whom paying 'societal' taxes are compulsory. People will of course pay for their trash to be picked up, but damned if they pay for someone else's; not in this survival of the fittest country.

Oddly enough, the notions of personal liberty/freedom and egalitarianism are uniquely Western European -- perhaps most famously exemplified in the USA, and in nations taking after these Western European values, if you really analyze the society more closely, I think you will conclude that the ability to, for example, give to someone freely (taxes) for which you may not ever benefit directly (but often do indirectly, of course) is one of the markers of a very caring society.

Indifference vs. Accountability

As we watch the news broadcasts, many of us are bombarded with images of Thais sometimes in their hundreds handing each other sandbags. We often hear some kind of unifying music of burden playing in the background, and we see the often smiling faces of Thais who at first glance appear unaffected by the calamity around them.

The marketers want non-Thais AND Thais alike to believe that what we are observing is the uniquely caring, helping, sacrificial society of the Thais. Unfortunately, I have another idea about this.

I am reminded of my time growing up in tough innercity NYC and certain groups of people who had/have much in common with the Thais at large. Words/phrases chosen to describe us are things like: strong, persevering, united during times of crisis, warm, etc. They struggled during the time of slavery by singing uniting songs of burden, laughing, dancing and spent great effort trying to maintain throughout the society and the world that they could handle it. After all, what else could they do at the time? Oh, that's right -- they fought and eventually surely improved their ability to chose their 'fate'.

Now, apply this example to the majority of Thais. They pass each other sand bags, smile on and off camera, donate money and supplies to each other and generally perform all kinds of wonderful, beautiful acts of kindness for their fellow man. But, I think largely live lives of indifference. Where is their fight for any number of things? Where is their demanding of 1) better governing, 2) better equality among their peoples, 3) the destruction of the self-loathing psychology (pseudo caste system they imported from Indian culture) that forces millions of them to believe they are ill able to live happily or move up their station in life as a result of their 'darker' skin, 4) the 'converse' admission of the slow and ongoing co-opting of their culture by the Chinese, etc etc etc.

Where is the fight; the passion for themselves and their fellow man? That is caring. Putting yourself in harms way to effect positive change in your society is caring. Passing sandbags 'necessary' often as a result of your indifference.

... As another example, some surveys suggest that most Thais believe corruption is OK so long as they benefit in some way. Where is the accountability? Surely, they cannot wonder why their leaders so obviously and grossly reflect this mentality, executing it ruthlessly ala their Co-opt'ers the Shinawatras.

Thais are many wonderful things, but being 'uniquely' caring is unfortunately, not a hallmark of Thai society.

... to be continued ...

In a nutshell they are not the same as us. I can live with that

... fascinating read, ThailandMan ... thoughtful ... as you, I have long labored to understand the character of Thai cultural values, in all respects ... while I do get much of it (more the what , than the why), I remain confounded by the pathology of it all and how so many unhealthy Thai behaviors persist ... I have my theories, but none get traction in an age of reason and civility.

.. if you've additional thoughts, please do continue ...

Edited November 4, 2011 by swillowbee

[nurofiend]

To be honest i think there's only one man who really cares,

He's a great man in many ways.

Although a lot of people disagree.

Kicked out for numerous reasons.

Sure to be back tho.

I'd say probably late next year,

No maybe sooner.

"disclaimer: this attempt at a joke is not based on the authors personal opinion and views of this 'individual',

nor shall they be held personally accountable for it in any court of law, anywhere, ever....or even on TVF"

[ginjag]

a uniquely caring Thai society....very funny ..nobody gives a dam_n here about anybody else unless it's family or friends.

Any disaster here is mostly seen as an opportunity to make a profit by those in the position to exploit the situation.

Where are all the super-rich Thais donating I wonder ??? - Oh yes - they are making money by supplying the relieve goods bought for cash donated by the average Somchai.

and regarding the flooding - Whats new?

I read a book called "Profit and Loss" published in the 1970's about a Hamburg,Germany based tropical wood trader in the 60's - apart from the "influential" people and corruption involved in the destruction of the Thai forests it deals with the yearly flooding of Bangkok during the rainy season and how the influential and rich made sure certain areas of Bangkok never flooded because the water was diverted into areas away from the "important, rich and influential" people.

This was in the 1960's - 50+ years have passed and nothing has changed!

I have to agree. It sounds sweet to say the phrase "a uniquely caring Thai society" but it doesn't reflect reality. Thais are perhaps a bit more 'caring' of others than Chinese, but that's like saying that Thais use a bit less MSG than the Chinese. Which countries consistently go out of their way and donate to the well being of other countries - in personnel, funding and donations? It's the US and western European countries, and not just because they're comparatively rich. There's no such thing as Red Cross in Asia or 'Medicines Sans Frontier' or 'Greenpeace' or Oxfam stemming from Thailand or Asia. Indeed, I'll challenge anyone to name one such do-good organization which originates in Asia without farang backing.

There's a certain "unusually rich" Thai individual residing in Dubai that purports to "love" Thai people. Anyone care to guess how many of his billions he has donated to the flood relief?

How about others who make billions on the "poor" or state how much they love the Thai people?

Oh come on surely you cannot defend the fugitive this time for hells sake, we know there are others don't we, but the poster was simply pointing out that this guy is the main person who is all the time promoting the slogans about his poor Thai people, He has made the point so clear before and after the election. all the promises, looking at this in general and between the fence, you haven't a leg to stand on -on this posters point. Please don't come back with what he has done ----he got paid for doing his job it was his duty as P.M.---also he got paid to swindle his own country, or am I wrong, Caring Thailand--good example EH !!!!!

[DocN]

How about others who make billions on the "poor" or state how much they love the Thai people?

"Oh come on surely you cannot defend the fugitive this time for hells sake, we know there are others don't we, but the poster was simply pointing out that this guy is the main person who is all the time promoting the slogans about his poor Thai people, He has made the point so clear before and after the election. all the promises, looking at this in general and between the fence, you haven't a leg to stand on -on this posters point. Please don't come back with what he has done ----he got paid for doing his job it was his duty as P.M.---also he got paid to swindle his own country, or am I wrong, Caring Thailand--good example EH !!!!! "

Maybe you can point out exactly, where I am defending him. I would really like to see that.

Elaborating further on my question might bring harm to myself, so I can not do that, but I am sure as hell not defending Thaksin!

So please...shut it!