Managing Uneducated Thai

[khunMato]

Hi,

I am working as a manager for a property management company in a rural part in the Krabi province. All of the staff I have, except for a couple at the office, are without any education or experience.

My problem is that it feel impossible to make the company into one team. I mean, 95% of the staff is Muslim so the guys leave for lunch (they "cant" eat eat the girls).

Whatever I do they still find a way to do as little as possible. I offered higher salary´s, their response, "we wont more". They even say that they can see that I am working long hard days, but manage to twist that to a negative point as well by saying that I wont be able to do that for much longer ( 1 year + ! ).

advise anyone?

Ps.

I don´t wont to make this into a religious thing

Ds.

[mightyharriss]

then why mention it....

[CWMcMurray]

Its definitely not a Muslim thing.... our outbound sales manager (also a Muslim) has got to be one of the hardest working and most dedicated individuals I have ever worked with anywhere.

He puts in major hours and it is not uncommon for him to still be in the office at 8pm or sometimes even 9pm. He is also also always the first one to volunteer to organize any and all activities...

I just think you have a few bad employees and that doesn't have anything to do with their religion.

[norrona]

are you the Boss and in charge of these characters or not....doesn't matter where you are in the world if they have no respect for you then you're on a loser my friend...

[bkkjames]

My issue is managing the so-called educated ones...

[impulse]

Sounds like you need different employees.

[bkkjames]

Too early for serious replies impulse-just starting my 2nd espresso

[richard_smith237]

A poor work ethic is not a religious or cultural issue.

If you are paying them fairly and they are working within the conditions of the law then they are there to do a job, you are there to run a business.

You cannot be friends or too kind. Equally so, you cannot run around screaming and shouting.

If the employees are placing you in a situation where you are having to become a person you don't like just to get some output from them, think about why that is...

i.e. is it your management style, or is it the employees being lazy?

It appears to me as though you have some employees hiding behind religion and / or culture.

If you give them an hour for lunch, does it matter if they eat with males or females? (I’ve worked in many Muslim countries, (Including Malaysia) and this appears not to be such a strict issue) .

Alternatively - if they eat lunch at your site (factory?), put up a simple divide so they can eat behind that if they choose....

Perhaps pick out one of the 'better' ones and make him a foreman - take some ideas from him.

Ultimately though - it appears as though you have a lazy bunch who are developing a sense of entitlement, at the moment they think you are lucky to have them, you perhaps are, but they also need to be reminded that they are lucky to have a job.

[Litlos]

I have about 160 mostly uneducated Thai's working for me and do not suffer this problem you describe, then again there is 9 years of experience to draw on in Thailand and about 20 elsewhere.

Firstly they are the same as most workers and will do as little as possible unless motivated and "my way or the highway" is motivation. Be aware that if they do not do the required work and there are no negative consequences, that will be a learned behaviour, and is part of the education you would rather wish they did not have. Also once they get down to idle speed it is hard to get them up to full speed again. Long lunches, work on about an hour for lunch as an Asia standard, any longer and they are taking the mickey. There are usually a couple of snack breaks as well during the day.

If you do the work for them, they will let you, also will make themselves comfortable and provide commentary. There are a few things below to try that should work, just remember the boss in Thailand does not regularly socialise with the workers and must be seen as being above them, not my idea, just the way things are. Anyway things to try are:

- Have a local team leader or foreman or whatever, that is the person you deal with and acts as a cut out. Some of the best at this are female. Putting one in charge provides local knowledge of how to get the work done. A local will motivate the locals and are often quite ruthless with a little bit of authority. Whoever you put in this position back them up and ensure everyone knows it.

- Have someone in the office who is local, who you trust and will tell you of your screw ups, hopefully before they happen. Hard to achieve and will take at least 6 months of work on the right person. Once achieved is invaluable for telling you about the local bits you do not know about.

- Make sure you respect local traditions for things like bonuses, birthdays, parties before holidays etc etc. These things are much discussed later and there is a bit of a face thing in boasting to friends/ family etc. If everyone else is boasting of end of year bonus, and they have not got one, the extra salary every month will be forgotten. Bonus is normally take yearly salary, divide by 13, pay 12 as monthly, last one as end of year bonus. To much face from boasting of getting money for nothing is bad, as everyone will be asking next time to hear the ongoing story of ripping off the boss. Note this is not specific to Thailand. If in doubt look up the ongoing debacle for the Reverse Osmosis Plant, Victoria, Australia.

- Make them work for what they get. Giving extra money for poor performance as a reward will ensure you get more poor performance.

- "Face" can be used to your advantage. Not getting in it, but asking a question about work completed where you all ready know the answer will be embarrassing in a semi public environment. Accept that the answer will be BS and an exercise in avoidance, just use the opportunity to reinforce what you want. Use this very carefully and whatever you have to say keep it simple, brief and once only in this encounter.

- Look after your people and ensure they know that they can rely on you when things go pear shaped. Sometimes not work related, but be prepared to back or assist them. This gives you status as somebody who can get things done.

- Be the boss and demand and be deserving of respect. If someone laughs at you out loud, or demands more than is being offered then explain they may be happier elsewhere, then closely monitor their work for a few weeks. A small titter into the hand is acceptable. Avoid the group type situations for discussing money. If someone asks for more they have to justify why they are worth more, very easy to do in a group situation.

- Tell everyone there are going to be changes in the way the organisation works. Do this at a group meeting. Do not ramble, just be straight up and ensure the message is clear. Let the local foreman whatever sort out the details.

- When you get things sorted it is really quite enjoyable, and you end up feeling like the head of a big family. When this occurs it is OK to occaisionally let things be a bit relaxed at work for a short time.

Where I am working at the moment they have not had a expat for about ten years even though is a multinational company. I was sent here for one month as shortage of people due to internal promotion and I happened to be available. Much suspicion and mutterings from locals about filling a "Thai" position, now 6 months later I am still here as HR have not filled the position, the locals are asking if I am coming back after leave, and why I am not here permanent.

Best of luck.

[ralfbkk]

Excellent Post, Litlos ! Very well answered.

[Soutpeel]

Some good advice so far, but I am struggling to see the connection with a "lack of education & experience" to your issues.

There obviously is a cultural aspect, ie the men not wanting to eat with the women and this would certainly be related to the Muslim belief system...ie men and women pray separately etc in mosque etc....so I wouldnt be messing with that.

Further I would think you are trying western style managment in Thailand, for the most part, it dont work, for the most repsonsiblity, dedication etc to a job doesnt exist in a most cases, even with "educated and experienced" employee's

The best suggestion, as above, is to target one of the better/stonger employee's make them a "boss" pay them more to keep the rest in line. There is a herd mentaility in Thailand get one doing it and the rest will follow.

You set the tone for the managment in the company, if you are laid back, easy going and too accomadating, the employees are going to take the p*ss, which appears to be happening.

"litlos" has posted some good stuff

[Galong]

Having lived in Krabi back in the early 90s, I must say the locals there are the most difficult Thais I've ever encountered. There are, of course, plenty of good one, but in general they seem to be more xenophobic and downright mean at times.

I've had the same problem in Phuket to a lesser degree. It took some time, but my team is awesome now.

Of course, all of this can be found in my home country as well. This is NOT an attempt at insulting Thais in general. I'd still much rather be here.

[Abduljabbar01]

If you have Muslim employees, they are not "uneducated Thai" as you would say in your topic sentence. Show some respect to them for when the times get tough, they will help you out where ever you need them and maybe some tips or advice.

But, please don't refer to Muslim workers as being "uneducated".

[Soutpeel]

If you have Muslim employees, they are not "uneducated Thai" as you would say in your topic sentence. Show some respect to them for when the times get tough, they will help you out where ever you need them and maybe some tips or advice.

But, please don't refer to Muslim workers as being "uneducated".

I dont think his comment was meant in that context.

Educated or uneducated is relative anyway

Edited November 12, 2011 by Soutpeel

[Shokdee]

... that will be a learned behaviour, ... once they get down to idle speed it is hard to get them up to full speed again. ...If you do the work for them, they will let you .... Make them work for what they get. Giving extra money for poor performance as a reward will ensure you get more poor performance. .... "Face" can be used to your advantage. ... Be the boss and demand and be deserving of respect. ... When you get things sorted it is really quite enjoyable, and you end up feeling like the head of a big family.

I am still here as HR, the locals are asking if I am coming back after leave, and why I am not here permanent.

They may have been uneducated to start, but now everyone is smart enough to recognize a good thing!

A very inspirational overview from a man who loves his job. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights.

[fletchsmile]

How to Manage Uneducated Thais?

Simply put... don't. Put a few people below you who are educated, who you can lead, manage, train, develop, nurture, look after and help instill the values and culture of your organisation.

It is possible to manage uneducated Thais yourself and Litlos gives some good pointers. I find this tiring though and while do-able not the best use of my talents. Litlos also includes picking a couple of locals to put in charge and who you can trust. There are many things in Thailand where it is simply better to get Thais to do. Managing uneducated Thais in my view is one of them. It's not the most productive use of a senior expats time. Instead be a leader, and recognise the difference between leading and managing.

Also worth remembering is the phrase "span of control". It refers to the number of direct reports you have. Normally not more than a dozen. I like about 7. These are the people you focus on most, and develop together with your expectations. Treat them well, get the right people, aligned with company goals, and you can put their needs before your own, and they will deliver. Hire the right people, and retain them. Empower them and let them in turn manage the uneducated masses. Focus on coaching them and removing their obstacles.

It's also worth reading the book "Working with the Thais". I wouldn't advocate going local and 100% following Thai ways, but some understanding will go a long way

[lonewolf99]

Thailand was never colonised......the OP might be learning fast the reason why...:jap:

[samran]

Thailand was never colonised......the OP might be learning fast the reason why...:jap:

er,um, that his employee's are negotiating treaties with the British to give away large swathes of land on the side?

[chiangmaibruce]

It's also worth reading the book "Working with the Thais". I wouldn't advocate going local and 100% following Thai ways, but some understanding will go a long way

I would also suggest the book "How to start up and stay up in Thailand" by Roy Tomizawa, published by Alpha Research

[TheWalkingMan]

Thailand was never colonised......the OP might be learning fast the reason why...:jap:

Always thought that they rolled over for the Japanese after a few hours of combat.

Thailand was allowed to be a buffer between French Indochina and the British and therefore not colonized. It was more of a geographical benefit than anything else. They got lucky.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

> I am working as a manager for a property management company in a rural part in the Krabi province.

Have you been given the appropriate level of authority to accomplish the responsibilities of your job? Do you have authority to hire and fire, promote and demote? If not absolute, what are the areas that you do have control over that can be used for leverage in motivating your staff?

> All of the staff I have, except for a couple at the office, are without any education or experience.

It would be helpful if you were a bit more specific here, particularly how it affects their ability to accomplish their jobs.

>My problem is that it feel impossible to make the company into one team. I mean, 95% of the staff is Muslim so the guys leave for lunch (they "cant" eat eat the girls).

This isn't clear at all. First of all, making (your part of) the company into "one team" isn't a clear measurable goal - I'd advise breaking that down into specific goals that you can set, if not publicly then to yourself, things that can actually get done in the coming months.

Secondly, what does "leaving for lunch" have to do with anything? Are you trying to have the "team" do bonding activities during lunch time? Keep in mind their break time is not company time, they should be free to do whatever they like during their allotted free time, things done for the sake of the company should be scheduled for during paid work time.

You will need to work around any of the Muslim cultural issues, so if they must eat separately, then don't involve food in your team-building activities, make it a reward for their free time afterwards.

It might be helpful for you to identify your own nationality/cultural background, as I believe you're not a native English speaker. For example, if you are Japanese, you need to realize that very few other cultures strive for the extreme "all one team" spirit considered normal there. You need to focus more on the actual work output goals, and be flexible yourself on how you're going to get there.

>Whatever I do they still find a way to do as little as possible. I offered higher salary´s, their response, "we wont more".

This is human nature. Your job is to make them realize that things are going to change, and the tools at your disposal to accomplish that depend on your real authority. If you have hire/fire authority, then make it clear you will use it. But be clear and reasonable, don't try for massive change overnight, and use positive reinforcement 90% of the time, negative measures only when really required - but when you do use them, be decisive.

Their response isn't clear - is it "we want more" as in even higher salaries? Or "we won't do more" for the higher salaries?

I would advise not offering higher salaries, but performance-based bonuses - you have to find the key areas where their measurable behaviour impacts company profitability and other success, and find ways to objectively identify those who perform better. Don't make it competitive against each other (fixed pool of reward to be given to some individuals, where others lose out), set up incentives where everyone could get a relatively similar bonus if they all improve. Team goals with an outing or party that everyone participates in can also work.

>They even say that they can see that I am working long hard days, but manage to twist that to a negative point as well by saying that I wont be able to do that for much longer ( 1 year + ! ).

They will of course resent any changes that require them to work harder for the same money. Make it clear you don't expect them to work as hard as you do, just to improve a little at a time, with appropriate incentives. Make sure to position yourself as helping them to achieve what they want, not forcing them to do what you want.

Recognize that you won't get their respect automatically just because your job has a certain title; you have to earn their respect through your actions and results - you are there to support them, help eliminate the things that prevent them from achieving more, rewarding them fairly for doing so, most importantly always being objective and fair, gentle and considerate with discipline whenever possible, but firm and even ruthless when the situation requires.

Sometimes it's necessary to "clean house" to ensure everyone understands a truly new order has arrived, but that may not be possible in your case. In any case I would certainly advise getting rid of the bottom performing 10-20% each year in the normal course of things, bringing in fresh staff likely to be more loyal to you since you hired them. Along with making sure to help the top-performing 20% however you can, even if it means helping them leave the company if yours doesn't offer enough room for advancement. Your staff as a whole needs to see that you will do your utmost to help them achieve what they want to achieve in return for performing well for the company.

> I don´t wont to make this into a religious thing

You will need to adapt to those areas that truly are important to them, and obviously respecting their religious needs is critical. I agree with the others' suggestions that you definitely need to identify (or most likely hire in) a local, whether as your assistant, or a supervisor, someone to be on your side, to help you separate the wheat from the chaff.

> Ds.

What does "Ds." mean?

Hope this helps. . .