Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Beano, the document from BKK Bank that another member posted here earlier in this thread was a single document that contained both Thai and English language sections. Obviously, I can't speak to whatever document you may have received.

[beano2274]

Beano, the document from BKK Bank that another member posted here earlier in this thread was a single document that contained both Thai and English language sections. Obviously, I can't speak to whatever document you may have received.

Well I got mine when I went to my local branch, maybe have to dig around to find the other forms, but pretty sure all was in Thai. And like many foreigners I cannot read Thai and just signed it.

Maybe that document is for newer issues, but what about those, whose cards, were issued before that document came into force?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just for grins, I'd sure like to know how Dave's vision of "personal responsibility" in cardholder behavior would be applied to the events recounted by the OP in this thread...

That's just a rhetorical question, since I know the bank can't and won't and shouldn't comment on its customers' business. But it's an interesting issue to consider.

I have visited Bangkok Bank Headquarters and met with an executive who has promised to look into this matter further. He asked me the same question and I told him that I thought it was stolen as I do remember being conscious of retrieving my card, though that machine has eaten it before. I have a videotape describing difficulties with this machine and its location from the manager of the internet/travel agency where it is located.

I told the Bangkok Bank Executive that I recall being surprised that my wallet was slightly out of my pocket afterwards but all withdrawn funds seemed to be there and I thought the card was still there as well. It is awhile ago but I do remember a homeless man standing dangerously close to me on my left side...the card is returned on the right. It is possible that this was a tactic of a team to get me to look left after replacing my wallet.

Note to self: don't use BKKB ATMs or my BKK Bank cards whenever any homeless person is standing nearby, or face the wrath of the bank.

It's been a long day.. I'm ready for some humor.

[beano2274]

Can I stand next to you when you push your PIN in please?

Or better still, can I borrow your card to get some money out please, I promise to pay you back next week!!!!!!!!

[fletchsmile]

Fletch, I think I'm more familiar with the details and operation of VISA's zero liability policy than you, including the fact that VISA itself specifically says that policy only applies to U.S. issued bank cards... and includes specific exceptions for intentional fraud and negligence.

I think you could be wrong...

Unless of course you're telling me you used to work for VISA and by that I don't mean your secondment to Thai Visa

The bit you have probably read is on a US website or in terms and conditions for a US credit card....hence the ref to the US. Other countries have similar refs. eg Visa.Ca refers to Canada and rules of law in Ontario

One example from Visa's (global) website:

"U.S., International Information

Most of the information on the Visa site applies internationally, but a significant amount of information applies only to certain countries or regions. Although Visa tries to mark all country- and region-specific information with a country indication, it does not warrant or represent that all information without indication applies internationally. You should check the applicability of any information on this site to you or your organization."

Edited November 28, 2011 by fletchsmile

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As I said, I'm ready for some humor... but also not forgetting about the facts and issues...

I suspect, about 99% of the folks here haven't / can't / won't read thru the dozens of posts in this thread, and the length of the thread makes it difficult to piece everything together.

So..let me recap in one place what's been discovered thus far from my research:

Thai banks that have some cardholder liability policy posted on their websites:

--Bank of Ayudhya

--HSBC

--Siam City Bank

--Siam Commercial Bank

--Standard Chartered

Thai banks that don't appear to have any cardholder liability policy posted:

--Bangkok Bank

--Kasikorn Bank

Then, as to the details of those policies, many talk only about the bank's credit cards. But in other cases, the bank reps say the same exact policies apply to their debit cards too.

And in almost all cases -- except for BKK Bank where Dave and the bank rep I spoke to have given very different accounts -- the policies say cardholders are responsible up to the limits of their card for all fraudulent purchases until either a) they report the loss/theft to the bank or b] until 5 minutes after they report the loss/theft. Not much zero liability about those policies.

As for the details, including web links to the bank policies where they exist:

--Bank of Ayudhya (post #100 in this thread) -- website policy for most of the bank's credit cards (except some Platinum) says cardholders liable until they report the loss/theft to the bank.

--HSBC (post 47) -- website policy for the bank's VISA and MC credit cards says customers liable until 5 minutes after reporting loss/theft.

--Kasikorn (post 105) -- bank supervisor says credit and debit cardholders responsible up to card limits for all fraudulent charges prior to reporting the loss/theft.

--Siam City (post 95) -- website policy says VISA and MC credit card holders liable until 5 minutes after reporting loss/theft.

--Siam Commercial (post 107) -- website and CSR say credit and debit card holders liable for charges prior to reporting loss/theft. The website policy says responsible until 5 minutes after reporting.

--Standard Chartered (post 95) -- website policy says VISA and MC credit card holders liable until 5 minutes after reporting loss/theft.

That's enough for me... It's pretty clear now how Thai banks approach issues of cardholder liability for lost and stolen cards.

Good advice for Thailand -- don't lose your Thai bank credit or debit card. Or, carry a bank card that doesn't have those same policies where you won't face the same financial exposure.

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[fletchsmile]

Humour? Are you sure you're looking in the right place? Visa's own website has a disclaimer about the info on there, saying it cannot be construed as accurate. So if Visa won't take responsibility for its own website, do you think that's the best place to source bank's info as a comparison

"No Warranties and Limitation of Liability

TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMISSIBLE BY APPLICABLE LAW, VISA DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THERE IS NO WARRANTY THAT ANY INFORMATION OR SERVICE PROVIDED OR REFERENCED BY THIS SITE IS EITHER ACCURATE, THAT SUCH INFORMATION OR SERVICE WILL FULFILL ANY OF YOUR PARTICULAR PURPOSES OR NEEDS, OR THAT SUCH INFORMATION OR SERVICE DOES NOT INFRINGE ON ANY THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. EXCEPT FOR ANY EXPRESS WARRANTIES STATED ON THIS SITE, IF ANY, THE INFORMATION AND SERVICES PROVIDED OR REFERENCED ON THIS SITE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS," "AS AVAILABLE," AND WITH ALL FAULTS, AND THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO SATISFACTORY QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, ACCURACY AND EFFORT IS WITH THE USER.

SO WHILE VISA MAY USE REASONABLE EFFORTS TO INCLUDE ACCURATE AND UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION ON THE VISA SITE, VISA MAKES NO WARRANTIES OR REPRESENTATIONS AS TO ITS ACCURACY, TIMELINESS, OR COMPLETENESS. VISA MAY PERIODICALLY ADD, CHANGE, OR IMPROVE ANY OF THE INFORMATION, PRODUCTS, SERVICES, PROGRAMS, AND TECHNOLOGY DESCRIBED ON THE VISA SITE WITHOUT NOTICE. VISA ASSUMES NO LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY ERRORS OR OMISSIONS IN THE CONTENT OF THE VISA SITE."

The way US institutions write their rules, there are so many ifs and buts...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You're really stretching now, Fletch... All kinds of corporate sites carry standard disclaimers, as I suspect you know.

But regardless of what VISA says or does, the U.S. federal law on consumer liability for fraudulent charges still applies nationwide, one version for credit cards, and slightly lesser protections for debit cards.

And none of that is anything like the policies employed by the Thai banks.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes, but the VISA Southeast Asia site, which includes Thailand, appears to be entirely silent on the subject.

The bit you have probably read is on a US website or in terms and conditions for a US credit card....hence the ref to the US. Other countries have similar refs. eg Visa.Ca refers to Canada and rules of law in Ontario

One example from Visa's (global) website:

"U.S., International Information

Most of the information on the Visa site applies internationally, but a significant amount of information applies only to certain countries or regions. Although Visa tries to mark all country- and region-specific information with a country indication, it does not warrant or represent that all information without indication applies internationally. You should check the applicability of any information on this site to you or your organization."

[Swiss1960]

You're really stretching now, Fletch... All kinds of corporate sites carry standard disclaimers, as I suspect you know.

But regardless of what VISA says or does, the U.S. federal law on consumer liability for fraudulent charges still applies nationwide, one version for credit cards, and slightly lesser protections for debit cards.

And none of that is anything like the policies employed by the Thai banks.

I think you are still missing the point, which is that VISA zero liability policy does NOT mean zero liability for the cardholder. Of course VISA writes "Your peace of mind and protection are paramount to Visa. Visa's Zero Liability policy is our guarantee that you won’t be held responsible for fraudulent charges made with your card or account information.¹ "

BUT THEN please read this disclaimer:

¹Does not apply to ATM transactions, PIN transactions not processed by Visa, or certain commercial card transactions. Individual provisional credit amounts are provided on a provisional basis and may be withheld, delayed, limited, or rescinded by your issuer based on factors such as gross negligence or fraud, delay in reporting unauthorized use, investigation and verification of claim and account standing and history. You must notify your financial institution immediately of any unauthorized use. Transaction at issue must be posted to your account before provisional credit may be issued. For specific restrictions, limitations and other details, please consult your issuer.

With all these restrictions and limitations, the whole zero liability policy is worth as much as saying "if you don't report your card stolen on time, you don't get any money back. And by the way: If we don't like the history of your account (i.e. too many claims, not enough turn-over, not enough profit to your bank), we might limit or refuse any such claims in line with the Issuers internal policies"". Thai banks might just say it directly and not cover it in such nice disclaimers as the US do...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The point is, Swiss, that the VISA fraud policy in the U.S. is largely irrelevant.

And that's because it only applies to debit cards, and for those cards, it only provides slightly more protection that the broad federal laws that cover both credit cards and debit cards issued by ALL U.S. banks.

As regards Thai bank issued cards, I've seen no evidence that any VISA fraud policy applies at all.

And certainly not any VISA policy that protects Thai bank card holders from liability PRIOR to reporting their card lost or stolen.

The long list of Thai bank policies posted above that hold cardholders responsible for all charges prior to reporting their card lost/stolen is testament to that.

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Since some of the posters here seem confused about the difference between the VISA fraud policy for its U.S. bank issued debit cards vs. the U.S. federal law/regulations that cover ALL U.S. bank issued credit and debit cards, let me post a summary of the pertinent U.S. federal laws.

Hopefully so I don't have to repeat it again, the U.S. federal law/regulations cover ALL debit and credit cards issued by ALL U.S. banks, no matter where in the world they are used. The VISA fraud policy for the U.S. is only a slight extension of the federal law for U.S. VISA debit cards.

Here's the summary of the U.S. law/regulations for all U.S. issued debit and credit cards:

Credit Card Loss or Fraudulent Charges (FCBA). Your maximum liability under federal law for unauthorized use of your credit card is $50. If you report the loss before your credit cards are used, the FCBA says the card issuer cannot hold you responsible for any unauthorized charges. If a thief uses your cards before you report them missing, the most you will owe for unauthorized charges is $50 per card. Also, if the loss involves your credit card number, but not the card itself, you have no liability for unauthorized use.

After the loss, review your billing statements carefully. If they show any unauthorized charges, it's best to send a letter to the card issuer describing each questionable charge. Again, tell the card issuer the date your card was lost or stolen, or when you first noticed unauthorized charges, and when you first reported the problem to them. Be sure to send the letter to the address provided for billing errors. Do not send it with a payment or to the address where you send your payments unless you are directed to do so.

ATM or Debit Card Loss or Fraudulent Transfers (EFTA). Your liability under federal law for unauthorized use of your ATM or debit card depends on how quickly you report the loss. If you report an ATM or debit card missing before it's used without your permission, the EFTA says the card issuer cannot hold you responsible for any unauthorized transfers. If unauthorized use occurs before you report it, your liability under federal law depends on how quickly you report the loss.

For example, if you report the loss within two business days after you realize [my emphasis added] your card is missing, you will not be responsible for more than $50 for unauthorized use. However, if you don't report the loss within two business days after you discover the loss, you could lose up to $500 because of an unauthorized transfer. You also risk unlimited loss if you fail to report an unauthorized transfer within 60 days after your bank statement containing unauthorized use is mailed to you. That means you could lose all the money in your bank account and the unused portion of your line of credit established for overdrafts. However, for unauthorized transfers involving only your debit card number (not the loss of the card), you are liable only for transfers that occur after 60 days following the mailing of your bank statement containing the unauthorized use and before you report the loss.

If unauthorized transfers show up on your bank statement, report them to the card issuer as quickly as possible. Once you've reported the loss of your ATM or debit card, you cannot be held liable for additional unauthorized transfers that occur after that time.

http://www.ftc.gov/b...edit/cre04.shtm

Clearly, Thai bank cardholders would be LUCKY if they had consumer fraud liability protections for credit cards and debit cards anywhere close to that comprehensive as U.S. law. But sadly, they don't.

So let's stop trying to muddle up and confuse the basic issue with all kinds of speculation about the details and potential exceptions in the VISA policy for its own U.S. issued debit cards. That policy has no bearing on Thailand, regardless.

SUMMARY:

U.S. cardholder liability for lost/stolen credit cards -- maximum $50 for charges prior to reporting lost/stolen.

Thai cardholder liability for lost/stolen credit cards -- most banks, up the the cardholder's credit limit prior to reporting lost/stolen.

U.S. cardholder liability for lost/stolen debit cards -- maximum $50 for charges prior to reporting lost/stolen, if reported within two business days of realizing the card loss. Larger liabilities if reported later.

Thai cardholder liability for lost/stolen debit cards -- most banks, up to the cardholder's account balance and/or daily limit on POS expenditures, prior to reporting lost/stolen.

The liability policies in the two countries are REALLY not the same.

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[aurelius]

The incentive for someone to just "borrow" someone's thai debit card and go free shopping up to 50$ worth is just too high here for them to accept that kind of liability I guess. There's little consequence for petty fraud, and almost no police action or prosecution. TIT.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, just as an add-on regarding the U.S. federal law on debit card liability, I found these additional protections that I wasn't aware of before:

If you failed to notify the institution within the time periods allowed because of an extenuating circumstance, such as lengthy travel or illness, the issuer must reasonably extend the notification period. In addition, if state law or your contract imposes lower liability limits, those lower limits apply instead of the limits in the federal EFT Act.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre14.shtm

This info and the similar summary info I provided above re the pertinent U.S. laws comes from the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, the arm of the federal government that "works to prevent fraudulent, deceptive and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop and avoid them."

[ianguygil]

TallGuyJohninBangkok, it seems you have nothing else to do than to sit at the computer all day and use Thaivisa. The 2 guys at the Bank, have other more important jobs to do, they kindly use some of their own time to answer questions on here, in my company there are only a few Internet PCs to stop people using it all day long and not doing their work. Maybe these two guys have the same kind of company policy, although I believe Ian works in the IT department so he has his means and ways.

Hi Beano2274

Spot on post. We actually have access to the Internet from our desks whenever we want, but are both crazily busy. I have a staff in the hundreds and I really don't have time to sit around responding to each post, or even reading them to be honest. That is why I always ask people to PM me if they have something important, need help or they need a question answered in a timely manner. I have the staff who create/run many of the products used by TV members, like iBanking, Mobile iBanking, Bangkokbank.com. So you can get 'horses mouth" answers on these things, rather than from the other end of the animal . Dave can help with the business aspects, while I will chip in with International Banking input when it is needed as that is also my background.

Dave will post our Debit Card policy once he gets it. He is a great guy.

Just an FYI, while those of us who grew up in the UK know the Beano as our favourite weekly comic, do you know that Beano is an anti-flatulence pill in the USA ? May want to keep that in mind when dealing with those on the other side of the pond....

Ian

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Look forward to your busy staff publicly posting the bank's cardholder liability policy in the near future, Ian...

It's just a bit of a shame that it took the OP's bad experience with the bank and all the chiding here in this thread to finally get BKKB to do something that many of the other Thai banks had already done for their customers, in terms of up-front consumer disclosures.

[beano2274]

TallGuyJohninBangkok, it seems you have nothing else to do than to sit at the computer all day and use Thaivisa. The 2 guys at the Bank, have other more important jobs to do, they kindly use some of their own time to answer questions on here, in my company there are only a few Internet PCs to stop people using it all day long and not doing their work. Maybe these two guys have the same kind of company policy, although I believe Ian works in the IT department so he has his means and ways.

Hi Beano2274

Spot on post. We actually have access to the Internet from our desks whenever we want, but are both crazily busy. I have a staff in the hundreds and I really don't have time to sit around responding to each post, or even reading them to be honest. That is why I always ask people to PM me if they have something important, need help or they need a question answered in a timely manner. I have the staff who create/run many of the products used by TV members, like iBanking, Mobile iBanking, Bangkokbank.com. So you can get 'horses mouth" answers on these things, rather than from the other end of the animal . Dave can help with the business aspects, while I will chip in with International Banking input when it is needed as that is also my background.

Dave will post our Debit Card policy once he gets it. He is a great guy.

Just an FYI, while those of us who grew up in the UK know the Beano as our favourite weekly comic, do you know that Beano is an anti-flatulence pill in the USA ? May want to keep that in mind when dealing with those on the other side of the pond....

Ian

Glad I never called myself after the Dandy!!!!!!

[beano2274]

Look forward to your busy staff publicly posting the bank's cardholder liability policy in the near future, Ian...

It's just a bit of a shame that it took the OP's bad experience with the bank and all the chiding here in this thread to finally get BKKB to do something that many of the other Thai banks had already done for their customers, in terms of up-front consumer disclosures.

Bit of a dig in the first line again, do you not think that some people do not just sit at a computer all day long chatting on the Internet or reading blogs, some people have work to do.

[ianguygil]

Look forward to your busy staff publicly posting the bank's cardholder liability policy in the near future, Ian...

It's just a bit of a shame that it took the OP's bad experience with the bank and all the chiding here in this thread to finally get BKKB to do something that many of the other Thai banks had already done for their customers, in terms of up-front consumer disclosures.

Bit of a dig in the first line again, do you not think that some people do not just sit at a computer all day long chatting on the Internet or reading blogs, some people have work to do.

It has always been the same with "Dear John", I honestly do not even read his posts. Be it with this TallGuyJohninBKK ID or his old JFCHANDLER alias (I wonder if he has even more??). Too much time on his hands.....

Now off to aa quick meeting then off to lunch..!! Enjoy!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Would it be too much to ask to actually stay on topic for the thread?

Thai banks that have some cardholder liability policy posted on their websites:

--Bank of Ayudhya

--HSBC

--Siam City Bank

--Siam Commercial Bank

--Standard Chartered

Thai banks that don't appear to have any cardholder liability policy posted:

--Bangkok Bank

--Kasikorn Bank

[beano2274]

Would it be too much to ask to actually stay on topic for the thread?

Thai banks that have some cardholder liability policy posted on their websites:

--Bank of Ayudhya

--HSBC

--Siam City Bank

--Siam Commercial Bank

--Standard Chartered

Thai banks that don't appear to have any cardholder liability policy posted:

--Bangkok Bank

--Kasikorn Bank

HSBC and Standard Chartered maybe have a presence in Thailand but are not strictly Thai Banks. I thought Siam City Bank was now owned by Thanachart, and had dropped the name Siam City Bank!!

I notice Kasikorn on your list, hope you are using your wealth of spare time to send them a few emails and complaints.

How about Credit cards like KTC?

Edited November 29, 2011 by beano2274

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for that good suggestion and on-subject comment, Beano.

Yes... Thanachart has bought Siam City... Siam City still has their own web site posted...

The English home page is here:

http://www.scib.co.t...ome/default.asp

And their cardholder liability policies are here:

http://www.scib.co.t...k_creditcard_en

But, Thanachart Bank -- unlike Bangkok Bank -- also does have info on its cardholder liability policy posted on the Thanachart website under its credit card section. And it's very similar to what Siam City has/had.

Thanachart also states that they'll at least re-issue a lost or stolen card for the first time without a fee, and only charge 200 baht thereafter. Whereas Bangkok Bank's website says they'll automatically charge 200 baht for any lost/stolen card replacement.

Here's Thanachart's info on cardholder liability.

16.Question

If I lose my credit card or it is stolen, what should I do? Are any expenses involved?

Answer

You must immediately request the staff of the Credit Card Contact Center to attach the lost or stolen card by calling 1770 followed by pressing 3 and 0 respectively. (You will not be held responsible for any expenses incurred after 5 minutes onwards as from the point in time you make the attachment request.)

The staff will take action to attach the card and issue a new card with a new number together with a new card security code and a new Telephone PIN Code. The new card with new number and codes will be sent to you by post.

There is no charge for reissuing the new card for the first time, after which the fee of 200 baht plus 7% VAT will be collected for each additional card. The fee will be included in the monthly statement

to be sent to you.

http://www.thanachar...peid=9&proid=15

I saw some reference that the official merger was supposed to take effect Oct. 1, 2011 (this year). But not sure if they held to that date.

Edited November 29, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So I've updated my running recap accordingly:

Thai-regulated banks that have some cardholder liability policy posted on their websites:

--Bank of Ayudhya

--HSBC

--Siam City Bank/Thanachart Bank

--Siam Commercial Bank

--Standard Chartered

Thai-regulated banks that don't have any cardholder liability policy posted:

--Bangkok Bank

--Kasikorn Bank

If anyone has similar info on the cardholder liability policies of any other Thai banks not already listed here, please post it and I'll update the list accordingly.

[beano2274]

Just to add my local SCIB has rebranded to Thanachart, so the merger has gone ahead, but not sure when it happened.

What is the blue and white bank, sure it begins with a K? (Kiatnakin)

And how about UOB and TISCO?

I would check them out myself but do not have time.

Edited November 29, 2011 by beano2274

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Beano, I don't know about KTC's status in terms of whether it's a bank or just credit provider... They don't appear to be a commercial bank as regulated by the Bank of Thailand.

Their website appears to be entirely in Thai. And I, like you, don't read Thai.

http://www.ktc.co.th/creditcard/index.php

Edited November 29, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here's a Bank of Thailand's list of banks with commercial bank branches in Thailand:

Bangkok Bank Public Company

Krung Thai Bank Public Company

Kasikornbank Public Company

Siam Commercial Bank Public Company

Bank of Ayudhya Public Company

TMB Bank Public Company Ltd.

Siam City Bank Public Company Ltd. *1

United Overseas Bank (Thai) Company *2.

Standard Chartered (Thailand) Bank Public Company *3

CIMB Thai Bank Public Company *4

Thanachart Bank Public Company *1

Tisco Bank Public Company Ltd.

Kiatnakin Bank Public Company

ACL Bank Public Company

Land and Houses Retail Bank Public Company *5

Thai Credit Retail Bank Public Co. *5

Mega International Commercial Bank Public Company Ltd. *8 *9

Footnotes:

1/ Siam City Bank Public Company Ltd. merged with Thanachart Bank Public Company Ltd. October 1, 2011.

2/ United Overseas Bank (Thai) Public Company Ltd. name change from Bank of Asia Public Company Ltd. 28 Nov. 2005.

3/ Standard Chartered (Thailand) Bank Public Company Ltd. name change from Standard Chartered Nakornthon Bank Public Company Ltd. 1 Oct. 2005.

4/ CIMB Thai Bank Public Company Ltd. name change from Bankthai Public Company Ltd. 4 May. 2009.

5/ Retail Bank.

8/ Subsidiary.

9/ Mega International Commercial Bank Public Company Ltd. name change from The International Commercial Bank of China Public Company Ltd. 21 Aug. 2005.

http://www.bot.or.th...fBranches.aspx#

Edited November 29, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There's a somewhat differently classified list here from the BOT that shows:

14 Thai Commercial Banks

2 Thai Retail Banks, and

1 Subsidiary

http://www.bot.or.th...s/instList.aspx

The list includes the various banks' names, contact info, websites, etc.

KrungThai Card (KTC), AEON, American Express, Easy Buy, Tesco Card Services and others are listed as credit card companies, not banks.

But here's the BOT's list of the banks with the largest number of branches in Thailand:

Siam Commercial Bank Public Company Ltd. -- 1,068

Krung Thai Bank Public Company Ltd. -- 1,010

Bangkok Bank Public Company Ltd. -- 962

Kasikornbank Public Company Ltd. -- 828

Thanachart Bank Public Company Ltd. -- 682

Bank of Ayudhya Public Company Ltd. -- 583

TMB Bank Public Company Ltd. -- 454

All the others are less than 200 branches each.

Edited November 29, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Firefan]

I think the main learning points from this thread is to reduce limits on ones cards.

In addition make a debit card with a Point Of Sale limit set at zero (I.e. can only be used at ATMs). I have done that with Bangkok Bank and I only carry that card (normally). When living in Bangkok - the city of ATMs - it is not an issue to go to an ATM - and yes; go to the most "legitimately placed ones (BTS/Banks/MRT Etc.). It can however be harder elsewhere I could imagine - but then a little cash planning is the solution.

When talking debit cards one could also dedicate a separate account to same - and transfer (smaller) amounts over online/via ATM when needed.

The rest of the discussion about Visa rules and policies is interesting - but for actionable things learned from this thread; the above methods is what I do to at least reduce the risk of fraud.

Cheers!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think those are reasonable suggestions, and have been made earlier in the thread re Thai bank debit cards...

Another important step is to enable any kind of transaction alert service that one's particular Thai bank may offer, so that you'll get an SMS or some immediate communication any time there's a charge to your account/card. That won't stop a fraudulent transaction, but at least you'll know hopefully quickly that one's occurring.

But remember, people will only understand the reason/incentive to set their Thai bank debit card POS limit to zero, as I've also done lately with BKK Bank, if they also understand that right now, with most Thai bank cards, they're on the hook for all fraudulent charges right up until AFTER they've called the bank to report the loss/theft.

And most farang don't know or understand that... Hence the experience of the OP in this thread, and all that followed from it.

Also, setting to zero for POS isn't always an available option. For example, in my conversation with Siam Commercial the other day, their policy for their debit card is that your ATM and POS limit must be the same. You can set any amount you like. But they have to be the same for debit and ATM.

Thus with the SCB cards, at least according to their staff, if you set POS to zero then you're also setting your ATM limit to zero, which is kind of pointless...

Fortunately, BKK Bank doesn't have that kind of policy. You can set your POS with them to zero... But you can't set your ATM daily limit to anything below 50,000 baht per day... and that does seem higher than some of us would like -- especially given the total lack of consumer protection laws here.

Also, lastly, don't forget, the same liability risk for lost/stolen card fraudulent charges exists even moreso with Thai bank credit cards. With a debit card, you're only potentially on the hook for up to the amount of cash you have in the account , constrained by your daily POS limit.

But with a Thai bank credit card, you could be on the hook for everything up to your credit limit, which often can be 100,000 baht or more by default. Again, the Thai banks have the same policy: cardholder is responsible for all fraudulent charges until AFTER they've called the bank to report the loss/theft.

And don't doubt it... once a thief has stolen your wallet/bank cards or obtained them through whatever means, the thief knows the clock is ticking. So they're going to be rushing out to spend as much and as fast on the card(s) as they can... before the bank at some point shuts the card down.

Because of those kind of policies, I won't carry a Thai bank credit card period, and I won't carry a Thai bank debit card unless it has a zero POS limit or I'm keeping very little cash in the account.

It's your money, and it's up to you to safeguard it...especially with the Thai banks and their policies.

BTW, I should add, another good option is to simply not usually carry Thai bank cards at all in your wallet even if you have them, if you have an option (as at least Americans certainly do) to use your home country bank cards instead if they meet three criteria:

--1. they have better anti-fraud protections than the Thai bank cards.

--2. they don't carry a foreign currency fee that makes them uneconomical to use abroad.

--3. you have convenient access to a no 150 baht fee AEON ATM, or your home country bank reimburses the 150 baht fee that Thai banks card on foreign card ATM withdrawals.

Edited December 1, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[hyperdimension]

TallGuyJohninBangkok, it seems you have nothing else to do than to sit at the computer all day and use Thaivisa. The 2 guys at the Bank, have other more important jobs to do, they kindly use some of their own time to answer questions on here, in my company there are only a few Internet PCs to stop people using it all day long and not doing their work. Maybe these two guys have the same kind of company policy, although I believe Ian works in the IT department so he has his means and ways.

Hi Beano2274

Spot on post. We actually have access to the Internet from our desks whenever we want, but are both crazily busy. I have a staff in the hundreds and I really don't have time to sit around responding to each post, or even reading them to be honest. That is why I always ask people to PM me if they have something important, need help or they need a question answered in a timely manner. I have the staff who create/run many of the products used by TV members, like iBanking, Mobile iBanking, Bangkokbank.com. So you can get 'horses mouth" answers on these things, rather than from the other end of the animal . Dave can help with the business aspects, while I will chip in with International Banking input when it is needed as that is also my background.

Dave will post our Debit Card policy once he gets it. He is a great guy.

Just an FYI, while those of us who grew up in the UK know the Beano as our favourite weekly comic, do you know that Beano is an anti-flatulence pill in the USA ? May want to keep that in mind when dealing with those on the other side of the pond....

Ian

Banking in Thailand is obviously a strong interest or hobby for TallGuyJohninBKK. Others might spend their time reading about the history of Thailand and its culture, or learning the Thai language. Different people have different interests, so who are we to criticize how other people spend their time? I think it's good that we have people like TallGuyJohninBKK who will speak out in support of the ordinary people against the corporations whose main goal is to profit from the people in any way they can get away with.

I highly doubt that Bangkok Bank PR guys like yourself and Daveroc spend time on here for free out of charity or compassion, and am certain that you receive some kind of incentive, whether it be direct payment, or an allocation of time per day as part of your salaried duties to promote Bangkok Bank on this forum and/or elsewhere on the internet. We all know it's all about gaining more market share in the industry. You will spend time on easy things that help to portray Bangkok Bank in a positive light, yet when it comes to something a little too difficult like doing some research on policies, you don't have enough time. OK stick with the easy tasks. We all know what you guys are about.

Edited December 1, 2011 by hyperdimension