Ominous Signs From Both Reds, Yellows: Thaksin Pardon

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Ominous signs from both reds, yellows

Avudh Panananda

The Nation

The debate on the granting of a pardon for former premier Thaksin Shinawatra has nothing to do with clemency, but stems from bitter animosity between the pro- and anti-Thaksin camps.

National reconciliation is likely to remain an illusory goal while the political divide is being fuelled by the fate of one man: Thaksin.

For whatever reason, certain ministers in the pro-Thaksin camp leaked the confidential debate last week about the draft decree for a pardon to mark His Majesty the King's 84th birthday. Based on the leaks, media professionals suspected the draft might have been designed to help Thaksin evade punishment.

Mystery deepened, as Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra was curiously absent from the crucial Cabinet meeting.

Senior Democrats, including Sirichoke Sopha and Pirapan Salirathavibhaga, used social media to air their suspicions about the government's attempt to bend the law.

Intrigue heightened after Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung played coy about the confidential debate. Even though PM Yingluck and Thaksin both said they were not privy to the pardon provisions, speculation spread like wildfire about the push for royal clemency. Thaksin's opponents, notably Kaewsun Atibhodi, stepped into the fray by attacking the government for putting a fugitive before society.

Last week the yellow shirts, led by the People's Alliance for Democracy, were finalising preparations to hold a rally to oppose Thaksin's homecoming. A number of red shirts, including Pheu Thai MP Natthawut Saikua, voiced readiness to pour into the streets to counter their yellow rivals and support the pardon for Thaksin.

With the red and yellow shirts poised to resume their respective street rallies, the former PM defused the tension on Sunday via a letter in which he claimed he would not accept a pardon. He vowed to sacrifice his personal happiness and reaffirmed his support for reconciliation.

Justice Minister Pracha Promnok then explained the decree drafting process and denied that the pardon would help Thaksin. It would be granted to nearly 30,000 convicted inmates but not to any fugitives, he said.

In the past few weeks, the country actually witnessed a dress rehearsal for the red and yellow shirts, foretelling what the two rival camps will do, if and when MPs debate an amnesty for Thaksin. Sadly, political turbulence will persist if rival camps rely on mobilising mobs to outmuscle each another.

Despite unverified reports on the pardon issue, the yellow shirts were already prepared to resume street protests. Should the PAD-led protests commence, the red shirts vowed to mobilise a bigger crowd to force their yellow rivals into submission.

Although the rival camps claim to be fighting for democracy, it is unfortunate that the reds and yellows are prone to fight in the streets instead of relying on talks in the Parliament. It is also worrying that the two camps are waging a political battle over Thaksin and not a worthy cause for the greater good for society.

Some opponents seem bent on total destruction of a man they despised, while supporters opt to see the same person as their knight in shining armour.

The Pheu Thai-led government is obligated to frame the debate on national reconciliation as a push to restore political normalcy and not a pretext to rescue the controversial man at the centre of these problems. In the reconciliation process, amnesty and a charter rewrite will surely be crucial factors. Parliament may look at such matters as early as next year.

If the government fails to steer the debate on reconciliation-related legistation, the red and yellow shirts are likely to dominate the scene and turn fence-mending efforts into the rivalry over the fate of Thaksin.

This week, protests were called off after the government promised the pardon would not apply to Thaksin. But what will happen when the government presents the larger issue of an amnesty for all players in the political turbulence, including Thaksin?

-- The Nation 2011-11-22

[huanga]

These two sides should both change their colors to shades of brown, because they both remind me of some substance... C R A P.

When it's coming, it gives you a stomach ache and you just want to extricate it. And when it comes out, it gives an odor that you just want to flush it away!

Spare us who just want nothing to do with either of these clowns!

[scorecard]

The never ending comment about reconciliation is a beat up and a waste of time.

Committees with members like jatuporn will have no rational discussion, this man has never contributed insightful discussion to anything, and has no respect whatever for anybody who doesn't agree with him loudmouth rubbish, often containing blatant lies, doctored evidence etc.

How can there be a 'formula' or whatever to achieve 'reconiliation'?

The answer to all these problems is staring everybody in the face - total respect for the law. Nothing more and nothing less.

[nong38]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

[eezergood]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

NO

or was this Rhetorical?

[sparebox2]

There will be reconciliation, if and only if Thaksin has a similar faith as JFK, Lincon, McKinley, and Garfield (no, not the cat).

Thaksin is not expected to be as lucky as Reagan, Truman, jackson, the two Roosevelt or Ford (no, not the car).

[KRS1]

The red regime always lies straight faced while looking you in the eye.

The pardon efforts are aimed at Taksin for sure, and Taksin will take it if given to him...lets not forget they have lied every single time about their true intentions.

Taksin looks Burmese.

[hellodolly]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

What are you talking about th majority of the people voted against the PT.

And of those that did I am quite sure that many of them thought they were voting for Yingluck.

Funny you misrepresent facts and then wonder if others are willing to put differences aside.

What differences are you talking about the ones who say let a convicted criminal walk freely down the street's of Thailand.

A lot of the problems in Thailand are caused by one man in his desire to rule.

Take him and his money out of the equation and things will improve immensely.

[KRS1]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

The majority of the people did not vote for the reds , the election was won by less than 10%...with a few million so disgusted by the situation they didn't even vote. The votes that were bought by the reds were also very high. To top it off the votes were counted by the police. Taksin's brother in law is now the chief.

This round was checkmate by the red regime, all cronies were carefully placed and all kickbacks and bribes were paid off way in advance including media.

[steveromagnino]

There will be reconciliation, if and only if Thaksin has a similar faith as JFK, Lincon, McKinley, and Garfield (no, not the cat).

Thaksin is not expected to be as lucky as Reagan, Truman, jackson, the two Roosevelt or Ford (no, not the car).

I don't think the Reverend Jesse Jackson was that lucky!

[DocN]

There will be reconciliation, if and only if Thaksin has a similar faith as JFK, Lincon, McKinley, and Garfield (no, not the cat).

Thaksin is not expected to be as lucky as Reagan, Truman, jackson, the two Roosevelt or Ford (no, not the car).

I don't think the Reverend Jesse Jackson was that lucky!

Judging on his other posts, he is talking about Michael Jackson!

[exeter]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

The majority of the people did not vote for the reds , the election was won by less than 10%...with a few million so disgusted by the situation they didn't even vote. The votes that were bought by the reds were also very high. To top it off the votes were counted by the police. Taksin's brother in law is now the chief.

This round was checkmate by the red regime, all cronies were carefully placed and all kickbacks and bribes were paid off way in advance including media.

Sorry I dont understand your reply, there is no mention of voting or bought votes.

I read it like this that most ordinary people do want reconciliation but its in the interests of some people in politics to keep that pot boiling so they stay in lucrative positions, if they stopped for a moment and thought not for themselves but for the country but they dont do they? Thats the problem.

Then there is the other problem Mr T.

Sad to say but whilst ever he is alive the problem is not going away, he cannot reconcile only divide, maybe its an impossible dream.

[exeter]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

What are you talking about th majority of the people voted against the PT.

And of those that did I am quite sure that many of them thought they were voting for Yingluck.

Funny you misrepresent facts and then wonder if others are willing to put differences aside.

What differences are you talking about the ones who say let a convicted criminal walk freely down the street's of Thailand.

A lot of the problems in Thailand are caused by one man in his desire to rule.

Take him and his money out of the equation and things will improve immensely.

What are you talking about, your response does not make much sense to me, where are the misrepresnation of facts? Where does it say that most people voted against PT?

I am sure you right most people thought they were voting for Yingluck and you last paragraph is spot on I will give you that, so how do you suggest taking him out of the equation?

[whybother]

What are you talking about, your response does not make much sense to me, where are the misrepresnation of facts? Where does it say that most people voted against PT?

I am sure you right most people thought they were voting for Yingluck and you last paragraph is spot on I will give you that, so how do you suggest taking him out of the equation?

Election results: 48% voted for PT. 52% didn't.

[ratcatcher]

There will be reconciliation, if and only if Thaksin has a similar faith as JFK, Lincon, McKinley, and Garfield (no, not the cat).

Thaksin is not expected to be as lucky as Reagan, Truman, jackson, the two Roosevelt or Ford (no, not the car).

I had to reread that first line "...if and only Thaksin has a similar fate faith as JFK, Lincoln,.........etc

[phiphidon]

What are you talking about, your response does not make much sense to me, where are the misrepresnation of facts? Where does it say that most people voted against PT?

I am sure you right most people thought they were voting for Yingluck and you last paragraph is spot on I will give you that, so how do you suggest taking him out of the equation?

Election results: 48% voted for PT. 52% didn't.

What percentage voted for the democrats, their main rival? It wasn't 52% was it? Thats why they are no longer in government - it's that simple.

[nong38]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

What are you talking about th majority of the people voted against the PT.

And of those that did I am quite sure that many of them thought they were voting for Yingluck.

Funny you misrepresent facts and then wonder if others are willing to put differences aside.

What differences are you talking about the ones who say let a convicted criminal walk freely down the street's of Thailand.

A lot of the problems in Thailand are caused by one man in his desire to rule.

Take him and his money out of the equation and things will improve immensely.

Sorry if I did not make myself clear. I think the majority of the people in Thailand would like to just reconcile them selves and get on with a peaceful life. The leaders of some of the political parties whilst they may be paying lip service to this I am not sure they really want it, it would take away their position in politics and Thai society if peace were to break out, who would lead the rallies and meetings? If there was peace and reconciliation there would be very few, no need.

Thaksin is a convicted criminal, I agree why would I want to let him walk free down Thailands streets? I never said he should, he should be in prison but he is on the run.

You are right take him out of the equation and things might improve considerably. He does not help Thailands cause at all. It seems to me that the current government have a top priority and that is to bring him back, the question is whatever way they propose to do this it is going to upset someone, well more than one. So if they find a way, does he accept it and come back? Could be risky, a lot would welcome him but it only takes one to change the situation for ever, would you take that chance, would he?

Reconciliation seems a long way off and all the people want is to have a simple and happy life free from all these political goings on.

Have I made myself clearer now?

,

[nong38]

What are you talking about, your response does not make much sense to me, where are the misrepresnation of facts? Where does it say that most people voted against PT?

I am sure you right most people thought they were voting for Yingluck and you last paragraph is spot on I will give you that, so how do you suggest taking him out of the equation?

Election results: 48% voted for PT. 52% didn't.

Sorry I did not mention any election results other brought that into the equation, I said most people wanted reconciliation which is nothing to do with which ever party was voted for.

[whybother]

What percentage voted for the democrats, their main rival? It wasn't 52% was it? Thats why they are no longer in government - it's that simple.

Exeter: "Where does it say that most people voted against PT?"

Me: "Election results: 48% voted for PT. 52% didn't."

Why bring up the Democrats?

[whybother]

Sorry I did not mention any election results other brought that into the equation, I said most people wanted reconciliation which is nothing to do with which ever party was voted for.

That would be why I replied to Exeter's post, and not yours.

[gregb]

What are you talking about, your response does not make much sense to me, where are the misrepresnation of facts? Where does it say that most people voted against PT?

I am sure you right most people thought they were voting for Yingluck and you last paragraph is spot on I will give you that, so how do you suggest taking him out of the equation?

Election results: 48% voted for PT. 52% didn't.

Sorry I did not mention any election results other brought that into the equation, I said most people wanted reconciliation which is nothing to do with which ever party was voted for.

Most people want reconciliation, but only on their own terms. Very few want reconciliation if it means doing what is best for the country as a whole. That is why the divide continues. Even people who don't actually attend the rallies side with one group or the other. There is very little middle ground here.

[yoshiwara]

Reconciliation has never been anything other than a red scam. If readers recall there were talks of reconciliation prior to the May 2010 events kicking off.

Thaksin was asked whether a deal could be negotiated. Up to you he said. And then there was. An agreement between the 2 sides. Oh no no no. Thaksin didn't intend an actual agreement, actual reconciliation other than complete capitulation to his control. So what happened? Seh Daeng appeared and the blackshirts wheeled out. The red leadership at that time lost great face for taking Thaksin at his word re reconciliation. Seh Daeng was shot and the violence kicked off big time.

What does 'reconciliation' mean now for the government and the reds. Confetti. Pure confetti to throw at the opposition. Of no more sincerity than their claims for amnesty not being about Thaksin. It is a poisonous smile.

[GeorgeO]

I'm just shocked at the interest in this debate......<BR><BR>Why are we even having this discussion at a time when the country is in the middle of a crisis? Is the plight of those in Ayyuthaya, Rangsit, etc, now just old news?<BR><BR>Publicity is what the prat craves, and somehow, everyone bends to his will. If we can't keep him out of the headlines news at a time like this, then what chance do we have when the country returns to some sort of normality?

[scorecard]

Reconciliation................who wants it? The people. the majority of the ordinary people do but some of the poilitical players seem to be more interested fueds which sustain their own power in Thai society. Time to put your differences aside and work for the country first.

Question is are any of them big enough to do it?

What are you talking about th majority of the people voted against the PT.

And of those that did I am quite sure that many of them thought they were voting for Yingluck.

Funny you misrepresent facts and then wonder if others are willing to put differences aside.

What differences are you talking about the ones who say let a convicted criminal walk freely down the street's of Thailand.

A lot of the problems in Thailand are caused by one man in his desire to rule.

Take him and his money out of the equation and things will improve immensely.

Sorry if I did not make myself clear. I think the majority of the people in Thailand would like to just reconcile them selves and get on with a peaceful life. The leaders of some of the political parties whilst they may be paying lip service to this I am not sure they really want it, it would take away their position in politics and Thai society if peace were to break out, who would lead the rallies and meetings? If there was peace and reconciliation there would be very few, no need.

Thaksin is a convicted criminal, I agree why would I want to let him walk free down Thailands streets? I never said he should, he should be in prison but he is on the run.

You are right take him out of the equation and things might improve considerably. He does not help Thailands cause at all. It seems to me that the current government have a top priority and that is to bring him back, the question is whatever way they propose to do this it is going to upset someone, well more than one. So if they find a way, does he accept it and come back? Could be risky, a lot would welcome him but it only takes one to change the situation for ever, would you take that chance, would he?

Reconciliation seems a long way off and all the people want is to have a simple and happy life free from all these political goings on.

Have I made myself clearer now?

,

Agree.

Reconciliation is a smokscreen to get back to a constitution and laws which benefits the scaly politicians of this country.

From a different angle, the key to reconciliation already exists - respect for the law!

[KRS1]

There will be no reconciliation happening. The country is divided permanently.

[gregb]

There will be no reconciliation happening. The country is divided permanently.

Even I wouldn't go that far. I think after the chief, square headed cause of the division is dead, the next generation who wasn't poisoned with all the propaganda will be able to find common ground. The main reason the division exists is a guy who is already over 60 and approaching the end of his life, thankfully. "Permanently" is too strong a word here. This isn't the Middle East. But there will be no reconciliation for a decade or two. And likely a civil war.

[lannarebirth]

I'm just shocked at the interest in this debate......<BR><BR>Why are we even having this discussion at a time when the country is in the middle of a crisis? Is the plight of those in Ayyuthaya, Rangsit, etc, now just old news?<BR><BR>Publicity is what the prat craves, and somehow, everyone bends to his will. If we can't keep him out of the headlines news at a time like this, then what chance do we have when the country returns to some sort of normality?

You've got that backwards I'm afraid. The country can't seem to return to some sort of normality until his name is out of the headlines. Unfortunately, he can afford to pay for a lot of headlines. Scan the last couple of hundred pages of this "Thailand news" forum and see for yourself how much ink has been devoted to the aspirations of this one man. He's a malignant tumor on the body Thailand.

[DocN]

There will be no reconciliation happening. The country is divided permanently.

Even I wouldn't go that far. I think after the chief, square headed cause of the division is dead, the next generation who wasn't poisoned with all the propaganda will be able to find common ground. The main reason the division exists is a guy who is already over 60 and approaching the end of his life, thankfully. "Permanently" is too strong a word here. This isn't the Middle East. But there will be no reconciliation for a decade or two. And likely a civil war.

The division exists because the gap between rich and poor opens up more and more. Between those who have (money, power) and those who have not.

Thaksin is not the cause of the problem- he is the result!

[whybother]

The division exists because the gap between rich and poor opens up more and more. Between those who have (money, power) and those who have not.

Thaksin is not the cause of the problem- he is the result!

Is this going back to being a class thing again. I thought that theory was debunked ages ago.

[DocN]

The division exists because the gap between rich and poor opens up more and more. Between those who have (money, power) and those who have not.

Thaksin is not the cause of the problem- he is the result!

Is this going back to being a class thing again. I thought that theory was debunked ages ago.

Don't know who debunked it?! Not me! I think it is pretty obvious: without someone being "unhappy", there is no chance ( or little chance) for populist politics. If people are educated, living a "happy" life, they would see through populist measures and they wouldn't care for 500 THB bribe. Best example: Germany 1933! Of course it is (at least partly) a "class thing"!