Special Report: Struggling To End Phuket's Transgender Stigma

[softgeorge]

Anyone who posts here saying katoeys are all evil, not your cup of tea and you don't mind them serving drinks but wouldn't want them doing a serious job is without a doubt protesting way tooooooo much.

It's a proven fact that homophobia does not come from a fear or hate of the other but from a personal insecurity.

When politically correct, tolerant respectful middle class Western people who respect straight acting gay men turn in to ultra masculine aggressive fools around camp guys or attractive katoeys that for me is proof positive that it's your own sexuality that is in doubt. You people need a reality check lol

So if I say they are not my cup of tea, that makes me homophobic right? That is the interpretation I get from your post. So for me not to be homophobic then I would have to change my sexual preference and take a ladyboy or gay person? Sorry nothing against a persons sexual preferences and I won't change my desire for real natural women. My bestman at my wedding is gay, but I guess I am still homphobic, one of my brothers is gay, still homophobic? If I used a ladyboy as my bestman I guess I would still be homophobic. Sorry to all you gay people whom I respect but I am not going to jump into the cot with you just to loose the homophobic tag so yes, I guess I am and always will be homophobic to the gay community just because I like women only.

[cowslip]

Anyone who posts here saying katoeys are all evil, not your cup of tea and you don't mind them serving drinks but wouldn't want them doing a serious job is without a doubt protesting way tooooooo much.

It's a proven fact that homophobia does not come from a fear or hate of the other but from a personal insecurity.

When politically correct, tolerant respectful middle class Western people who respect straight acting gay men turn in to ultra masculine aggressive fools around camp guys or attractive katoeys that for me is proof positive that it's your own sexuality that is in doubt. You people need a reality check lol

So if I say they are not my cup of tea, that makes me homophobic right? That is the interpretation I get from your post. So for me not to be homophobic then I would have to change my sexual preference and take a ladyboy or gay person? Sorry nothing against a persons sexual preferences and I won't change my desire for real natural women. My bestman at my wedding is gay, but I guess I am still homphobic, one of my brothers is gay, still homophobic? If I used a ladyboy as my bestman I guess I would still be homophobic. Sorry to all you gay people whom I respect but I am not going to jump into the cot with you just to loose the homophobic tag so yes, I guess I am and always will be homophobic to the gay community just because I like women only.

QED!

[cowslip]

Wonder how many of you would be happy to have a son actually marry a katoey?

Nah......didn't think so........hypocrites!

Congrats - probably the most facile comment on the entire thread!

[KarenBravo]

Facile? No, just unfashionably honest.

[chooka]

So if I say they are not my cup of tea, that makes me homophobic right? That is the interpretation I get from your post. So for me not to be homophobic then I would have to change my sexual preference and take a ladyboy or gay person? Sorry nothing against a persons sexual preferences and I won't change my desire for real natural women. My bestman at my wedding is gay, but I guess I am still homphobic, one of my brothers is gay, still homophobic? If I used a ladyboy as my bestman I guess I would still be homophobic. Sorry to all you gay people whom I respect but I am not going to jump into the cot with you just to loose the homophobic tag so yes, I guess I am and always will be homophobic to the gay community just because I like women only.

QED!

QED (Quite Easily Done) ..... Um now you are someone who does not understand the hetrosexual community. There is not enough alcohol on the planet to make a hetro man jump into bed with a gay man or ladyboy. And no I am not homophobic just not into the gay sex scene. Sorry if this comes across anti gay because it is not my intention just saying not my scene. If you lined up a dozen men/ladyboys and a dozen women I will go to the women anytime.

[cowslip]

Facile? No, just unfashionably honest.

the fact you seem to think it is either pertinent or "honest" just about sums up your ability to assess the situation.

[chooka]

Facile? No, just unfashionably honest.

But honesty is no longer considered politically correct

[cowslip]

Facile? No, just unfashionably honest.

PS - how d'you think I'd feel about my son marrying you?

[cowslip]

Facile? No, just unfashionably honest.

But honesty is no longer considered politically correct

,,,and now someone who is going to have to google "politically correct" as they don't have a clue what it means.

Edited November 24, 2011 by cowslip

[KarenBravo]

Facile? No, just unfashionably honest.

PS - how d'you think I'd feel about my son marrying you?

Is he gay? I'm a bloke.

I don't consider myself homophobic and I personally have no problem with any katoeys outside of the sex trade.

It's the ones in the sex trade I have a problem with. All thieves and prone to violence.

Quickest way to get a stiletto heel to the head is tell the poor unsuspecting tourist that the "girl" he has his arm around is a fella.

If you have the courage of your convictions, give it a try.

If I had a gay son, I would have no problem with him "marrying" another gay man.

If my son was straight and chose a katoey over a real woman; I'd have a problem with that. If it was a katoey from the sex trade, I'd disown him.

[lukejames]

If I comment on an article about legalizing gay marriage by saying "gays are not my cup of tea" I'm either being sexually insecure or homophobic or saying that gays as human beings are not my cup of tea. No one asked if anyone found katoeys attractive or not yet many of you still feel the need to declare your heterosexual credentials on an internet forum.

Strange indeed.

[lukejames]

Katoeys who work the nightlife and who brazenly walk down Walking Street or ply their trade in Phuket do seem overly aggressive and obnoxious. And many do seem to get involved with criminal activities. However, do we notice them because they stand out as katoeys? When a female nightlife worker pickpockets a wallet or does something, perhaps it is not noticed as much? And would said females be as physically aggressive if they had the size and musculature as men?

I would be curious to see if katoeys are any more violent or criminally oriented than women or other men (straight or gay). Until I see figures that show that they are more apt to be criminals, then I tend to think that because they stand out more, we are more conscious of the transgressions of katoeys than by other members in society.

Good points. All the people saying all katoeys are violent, even all katoeys in the sex trade are just bigoted ignoramuses. Although I would agree there is more criminality from katoeys because as the article points out they are on the margins of society and find it difficult to get decent employment. Also it must be rather distressing growing up feeling that your gender is the wrong one so katoeys are probably more prone to mental illness and poverty than the average person of either gender.

Edited November 24, 2011 by lukejames

[lukejames]

In the UK or Canada (countries of my citizenship), such a place would be out of business overnight.

In the UK (the country of my citizenship) I've spent the last 10 years watching a man transform into a woman (snip and all) working at our local Sainsburys supermarket. S/He's not lost her job and Sainsburys seems to be doing fine.

And that's actually the point - you know ONE in the UK. How many have you seen here?

Living on Phuket, but not visiting bars or Patong (except rarely and, only during the day), I only see katoeys working in shops, restaurants etc.

I am, even now, suprised every time - as I NEVER saw one in the UK.

They are clearly far more accepted here than they would be in the Western world, and this is one of those areas where Thai tolerance is far superior to Western intolerance. Those I've come across in shops etc. have been v friendly and good at their jobs.

However, even though they are able to live relatively normal lives, I don't doubt that they suffer some discrimination insofar as others may not take them as seriously as they would a 'normal' man.

Hello there, the UK is pretty tolerant too. My local pub which was full of football hooligans and plastic gangsters used to have a transsexual working behind the bar and she was treated with respect. Although the UK is not as tolerant as Thailand and gays can still be kicked to death in the street having transsexuals working in a business will not make that business suffer. Madame Jojo's is a very popular transvestite nightclub in London which has Northern Soul nights hosted by Legendary Scottish DJ Keb Darge. The fact it is a t-girl venue doesn't stop all the geezered up soulboys heading down there.

[sirchai]

It takes many years to understand why “kathoeys” are a part of the daily life in Thailand, even at primary schools. Thais do believe and they are pretty much okay with it, if having three children that one will turn into a lady boy, or “Kathoey”, because she/ he had been a woman in her life before with too many men.

Seems to me that it’s similar in believing all the ghosts under beds in hospitals, temples and other places.

But there must be a huge market for them, most understand very early that they can make easier money, dressed like and acting like a girl. Would be interesting to know the percentage of TV users who had some experiences with the third gender before.

I guess that men from all nations are coming to Thailand just to see, or feel the dell in their pants…..

Beside this, isn't it up to anybody what they are up to? :jap:

[lukejames]

I don't think that there are any more gays in Thailand than in other countries, but the stigma in being a feminized gay man is not so great here, so more men who are inclined to the ladyboy characterization (straight men as well) are probably more likely to live that way.

In the US, many, many gay men and transvestites (I realize gays, transvestites, and transexuals are not one in the same) are closeted. The fear ostracism from friends, in the workplace, in the military,on sports teams, etc. So their proclivities for dressing and acting like women are greatly curtailed. I first was introduced to this lifestyle when my wife and I had a gay couple as friends. One guy was a ladyboy at heart. But due to work pressures, he hid it until Saturday night when he would dress like a woman and perform at a transvestite revue. We went several times to see him perform, and we met both straight men and gay men who pretty much did the same thing--that is, hide their proclivities in their daily lives, but let loose on the weekend.

In Thailand, I think there is less pressure to hide this type of lifestyle, so more people are open about it. So for the casual observer, it might seem that there are more ladyboys here than in other places when in reality, they are just more obvious here.

Bang on

[lukejames]

My point is that it is easy to "say the politically correct thing" on an internet forum; they can "talk the talk", but I wager that very few of them can "walk the walk".

So you are questioning the tolerant contributors sincerity? Why would you do that?

You seem to be saying that the people who are preaching tolerance are hypocrites whilst giving the bigots a pass.

Very strange indeed, unless you agree with the bigots that is?

[chooka]

But honesty is no longer considered politically correct

,,,and now someone who is going to have to google "politically correct" as they don't have a clue what it means.

Political correctness is often is satirized, hence my smilie face. It is a beautiful day outside smile and don't take everything so seriously as it's not healthy.

[chooka]

It takes many years to understand why "kathoeys" are a part of the daily life in Thailand, even at primary schools. Thais do believe and they are pretty much okay with it, if having three children that one will turn into a lady boy, or "Kathoey", because she/ he had been a woman in her life before with too many men.

Seems to me that it's similar in believing all the ghosts under beds in hospitals, temples and other places.

But there must be a huge market for them, most understand very early that they can make easier money, dressed like and acting like a girl. Would be interesting to know the percentage of TV users who had some experiences with the third gender before.

I guess that men from all nations are coming to Thailand just to see, or feel the dell in their pants…..

Beside this, isn't it up to anybody what they are up to? :jap:

Quite true I know of one particular guy who became a ladyboy simply for the money he could make in the bars. Those are his words and not my assumption. I am sure he is not alone in his thinking either.

[cowslip]

Quite true I know of one particular guy who became a ladyboy simply for the money he could make in the bars. Those are his words and not my assumption. I am sure he is not alone in his thinking either.

just think about that for a minute and you'll realise how daft it is.

[cowslip]

Political correctness is often is satirized, hence my smilie face. It is a beautiful day outside smile and don't take everything so seriously as it's not healthy.

please take your patronisation elsewhere - and do a little googling - To be satirical you need first to understand what you are satirising. - it will help you make more sense rather than resort to "I knew that" type comments.

[LivinginKata]

A number of the more argumentative posts have been weeded out to prevent this topic going off the rails.

[Swiss1960]

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

If I would say what I think about you and your post, then not only my post would be deleted, but I think I would be banned from TV for weeks....

[lukejames]

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

If I would say what I think about you and your post, then not only my post would be deleted, but I think I would be banned from TV for weeks....

I concur absolutely

[farangnoi]

I noticed that the writer of this article addresses Katoeys as "she". Is that correct? What does their paspport show under gender: HE or SHE...

Is it true that Katoeys cannot subscribe a health insurance if they have tampered with ther body to look more "female"...

Why so many boys feel like girls here in this part of the world and nowhere else? You hardly can call them "exceptions" but more a sort of "new generation"... Did the Lord made so much mistakes here in Thailand when he created men and women?

For me it's clear: it's not natural! You can call me "old-fashioned" but that is not going to change my opinion. That is not how we have been created... We should feel sorry for them (with pittyful respect and no disdain) similarly as with the so many children born with deficiencies in Vietnam after Agent Orange was sprayed over their country....

"He" or "She" Is that important to the ladyboy .......or you?

try translating he and she into Thai.

:jap:

[farangnoi]

:jap:

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

If I would say what I think about you and your post, then not only my post would be deleted, but I think I would be banned from TV for weeks....

I concur absolutely

:jap:

[farangnoi]

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

You don't have to purchase a plane ticket for her..aeehh...him. What you obviously didn't realized was that some of them do have a brain. I personally do not care who's selling me a ticket.

But I f\do know that some guys are so unsafe with their sexuality that they might think something bad could happen if....

I think you hit the nail right on its head here.

I don't care if someone is katoei or not as long as they are good at their job.

Would he purchase a ticket when he/she is gay/lesbian? is my question.

Edited November 24, 2011 by LivinginKata
Quote reformatted

[prvtdetdave]

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

So if the owner of a business hires a ladyboy, are you telling us he is not serious?

[softgeorge]

Quite true I know of one particular guy who became a ladyboy simply for the money he could make in the bars. Those are his words and not my assumption. I am sure he is not alone in his thinking either.

just think about that for a minute and you'll realise how daft it is.

I don't think it is daft, I have heard of this before myself. Why is it daft? This is Thailand. You say something is daft without providing any logical explanation as to why it is daft. Are you saying it's daft because it is an impossible thing for someone to do or is it daft as in merry or frolicking?

[farangnoi]

" In the UK or Canada (countries of my citizenship), such a place would be out of business overnight."

I reckon if you had a bar in the West End/Soho in London, full of Katoey's and it was commercially viable or even possible, I reckon it would be an instant hit in my opinion!

IN Amsterdam are 2 bars run by these girls, and they doing great

[farangnoi]

Wonder how many of you would be happy to have a son actually marry a katoey?

Nah......didn't think so........hypocrites!

If my son is happy with her.....Why not.