Thai Police To Question Ex-Pm Over Protest Deaths

[Thaddeus]

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

Quite agree.

Abhisit should take the ultimate responsibility then?

So the person who orchestrated his War on Drugs, should take ultimate responsibility for that, he did name it after himself after all, and there is no denying that many hundreds of innocents lost their lives in that one.

This is one of the main things that really sticks in my throat, you cannot use one lever when it suits your agenda but completely ignore it when it doesn't.

Bottom line, if I have a gun and someone starts shooting or lobbing grenades in my direction, you can be dammed sure I'll shoot back.

The only people who should take the ultimate responsibility for this are the ones that fired the first shot or lobbed the first grenade and whoever told them to do so ...... end of.

[phiphidon]

Present government wants to give Thaksin a pardon/amnesty as part of a reconciliation process but get its police to question previous goverments leader over protest deaths. Seems like it's reconciliation for one but not the other......

If they manage to make any charges stick to Abhisit then there maybe a "we'll pardon yours if you pardon ours" deal.....

If reconcilliation was on Abhisits mind he had a strange way of showing it - from the day the investigations started all kinds of delays and turn arounds have occurred.

Please tell me if I am mistaken but this investigation is regarding the first thirteen people killed in last years events.

The investigation was started under Abhisits administration by the DSI. The DSI came up with a conclusion, the results of which became known to Reuters (the results being that Security Forces were involved in some of the 13 deaths). Reuters were directly involved because one of the civilian deaths being investigated was their cameraman, Hiro Muramoto. The first conclusion by the DSI, after an autopsy, was that Muramoto had been killed by an M16 bullet. A visit to the DSI by a high ranking Army officer was made. Subsequently the DSI made a U Turn after another doctor (who was not present at the autopsy) made a decision in less than an hour that the offending round that caused the death of the cameraman was from an AK47 - and how was this decision made? By looking at photographs of the injury.

In September 2011 the day after the DSI handed back the investigation to the police the Head of the DSI stated that the Army was responsible for the shooting. Chalerm pushed for some progress on the investigation and this is where we are today, with Abhisit and Suthep being asked to provide information to the police - a shame they didn't think of that when Abhisit was PM, oh wait.........................

Edited November 29, 2011 by phiphidon

[anterian]

All military governments use lethal force on the civilian opponents. Pinochet did, Saddam did, Gadaffi did, Assad of Syria is currently doing so.

That fact that the Abhisit government did simply makes it clear that it was a military puppet. Which we all knew anyway.

[backtonormal]

Regardless of what happened, when last year, it is for me unconscionable for a gov't (any gov't) to use lethal force against its own citizens.

I hardly expect many people here on TVF to agree with that, but ask yourself how many people would have died if the Army had NOT used lethal force?

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

There were reports of shooting from both sides that day. I doubt very much that nurses and medics were targeted by the army. What would have been the benefit of that?

Why should you doubt who they hot. Japanese reporter and all the world saw the Canadian pressman, who was already shot, pleading only to be shot again. You must ask which person had so much hatred for these Thai people that he would order a killing spree

[hanuman1]

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

There were reports of shooting from both sides that day. I doubt very much that nurses and medics were targeted by the army. What would have been the benefit of that?

When someone gets shot right in front of you, one result is a certain sense of fear that would propel you away from the area pretty quick. I believe that was the intended 'benefit' the army were apparently seeking by shooting a few people among the crowd. They wanted the area cleared, as this was their brief.

[jayboy]

Given the blatantly trumped-up nature of whatever charges that will be thrown against him, it would give Abhisit the opportunity to play a *real* Nelson Mandela/Aung San Suu Kyi role, further highlighting the flaws of the square headed coward that fled to Dubai and sponsored a war within his own country.

If the charges are trumped up or not proven, that's the end of it.

Refresh my memory but I don't remember Nelson Mandela or Aung San Suu Kyi being accused of ordering the army to murder unarmed civilians.Personally I'm sure Abhisit didn't either despite the need for further investigation.But your very reference to these figures is grotesque - another example that those obsessed with hatred of Thaksoin tend to lose their moral compass.

[lannarebirth]

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

BUT the gov should have stopped the build up of stuff from the beginning, Police useless, don't know why/how they earn a living from the tax payer.

In any other place the mob would have been broken up in 12 hours.

That is the sad truth. If Abhisit is guilty of anything it is that his misjudgement in allowing this protest to continue and grow only fed the most violent and treacherous inclinations of the movements leaders and sponsors.

Even if Abhisit told the army to attack earlier, it wouldn't have saved lives, in my opinion.

Form exploding tear gas to untrained, unwilling security forces. Successive Thai governments have shown that they simply don't have the appropriate resources to effectively control a crowd without causing death.

Yes, you're right and I haven't seen any indications that any future demonstrations by whichever group under whichever government would be handled any differently.

[Roadman]

It's good the police asked k. Abhisit and k. Suthep to drop by to answers a few questions. No doubt the two gentlemen will comply. I assume the statements of some other worthy gentlemen, like k. Jatuporn, k. Nattawut, Dr. weng, et at have been taken already?

In this case, which will see a (Pheu Thai) MP travel all the way to The Hague, the Netherlands to inquire about the case filed with the ICC on the 31st of January this year, anyone involved should, will and must tell their side of the story. Two foreign reporters killed, 91 death in total! We, the people, democracy minded, etc., etc., we have a right to know.

BTW those this include those killed by grenade lobbing fanatics, grenades which just by pure chance (of course) seemed to only targeted non-red-shirts?

Totally agree. Well done to this Pheu Thai MP who wants to get the truth. I am mostly keen on the findings of the deaths of the 13 soldiers who were murdered by armed insurgents, and for the ICC to find who was responsible for funding, leading and enciting this act of war against Thailand. Once the ICC rule on this then it will be very easy for the Thai government to be able to file the appropriate charges against those responsible.

Please send link to confirm 13 soldiers were killed at anytime during last years unrest

Corrected. It was not 13 but 11 soldiers and police. So as above "the 10 soldiers and police who were murdered by armed insurgents". There was the one who was shot by his own side.

[Insight]

Given the blatantly trumped-up nature of whatever charges that will be thrown against him, it would give Abhisit the opportunity to play a *real* Nelson Mandela/Aung San Suu Kyi role, further highlighting the flaws of the square headed coward that fled to Dubai and sponsored a war within his own country.

If the charges are trumped up or not proven, that's the end of it.

Refresh my memory but I don't remember Nelson Mandela or Aung San Suu Kyi being accused of ordering the army to murder unarmed civilians.Personally I'm sure Abhisit didn't either despite the need for further investigation.But your very reference to these figures is grotesque - another example that those obsessed with hatred of Thaksoin tend to lose their moral compass.

a) Warning after warning after warning was given the protesters which remained. I'm not the only person that believes the moment you glue yourself knowingly to an armed movement, you can hardly be labelled as peaceful and "unarmed".

You call my reference to Nelson Mandela or Aung San Suu Kyi as "grotesque"? I don't believe I'm the first person to compare a Thai ex-PM to such people.

c) My "hatred" of Thaksin stems from many other "grotesque" actions of his own, such as his promise to be on the front line the minute the first shots were fired. Which I believe were by his own red army on the April 10th. No sign of him then, no sign of him now. Coward.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Insight

[Roadman]

What we should ask is 'Why would so many people face down rifles with fire crackers' what would make people face possible death. When you have had 3 successives governments, who you voted for removed by the army, the judiciary and the invisible hand threatening PT coalition mps with 'an offer they could not refuse' then we are at the route of the problem.

I read so much tosh from supposed Dem supporters on here it makes you cringe, they can defend the indefensible. Systematic beating down on the masses by the few brought us to this flashpoint, forget your Thaksins and Abhisits, people should look beyond these people and look to the real reasons why Thailand is at this point in its history.

The real reason that Thailand is at this point in its history is Thaksin and his absolute disrespect for the law, right back to when he first came to power and he and his wife choose to ride rough shod over it over the assetts case. No wonder the country is so bloody corrupt and nobody respects the law when the PM of that day is the shinning example set for the last 10 years.

[lannarebirth]

Present government wants to give Thaksin a pardon/amnesty as part of a reconciliation process but get its police to question previous goverments leader over protest deaths. Seems like it's reconciliation for one but not the other......

If they manage to make any charges stick to Abhisit then there maybe a "we'll pardon yours if you pardon ours" deal.....

If reconcilliation was on Abhisits mind he had a strange way of showing it - from the day the investigations started all kinds of delays and turn arounds have occurred.

Please tell me if I am mistaken but this investigation is regarding the first thirteen people killed in last years events.

The investigation was started under Abhisits administration by the DSI. The DSI came up with a conclusion, the results of which became known to Reuters (the results being that Security Forces were involved in some of the 13 deaths). Reuters were directly involved because one of the civilian deaths being investigated was their cameraman, Hiro Muramoto. The first conclusion by the DSI, after an autopsy, was that Muramoto had been killed by an M16 bullet. A visit to the DSI by a high ranking Army officer was made. Subsequently the DSI made a U Turn after another doctor (who was not present at the autopsy) made a decision in less than an hour that the offending round that caused the death of the cameraman was from an AK47 - and how was this decision made? By looking at photographs of the injury.

In September 2011 the day after the DSI handed back the investigation to the police the Head of the DSI stated that the Army was responsible for the shooting. Chalerm pushed for some progress on the investigation and this is where we are today, with Abhisit and Suthep being asked to provide information to the police - a shame they didn't think of that when Abhisit was PM, oh wait.........................

I'm not trying to score points here, I'm asking because I really don't know. The photgraphs of the Black Shirts on April 10th show them carrying Army type weaponry. If both sides have Army type weaponry how does one establish which group fired at the dead person. I'm sure you can try to reconstruct angles and trajectories, but what else gives a clear indication of culpability?

[lannarebirth]

The government of most countries use lethal force against criminals every day. Sometimes those associating with the criminals get caught in the cross fire and sometimes innocents do too.

You cannot be taken seriously. Shooting nurses and medics was not crossfire they were TARGETTED. There is an apartment for Abhisit in Dubai. Current owner vacating shortly

There were reports of shooting from both sides that day. I doubt very much that nurses and medics were targeted by the army. What would have been the benefit of that?

Why should you doubt who they hot. Japanese reporter and all the world saw the Canadian pressman, who was already shot, pleading only to be shot again. You must ask which person had so much hatred for these Thai people that he would order a killing spree

Or who had the most to gain by running up the body count? Sort of like the flooding.

[KKK]

Present government wants to give Thaksin a pardon/amnesty as part of a reconciliation process but get its police to question previous goverments leader over protest deaths. Seems like it's reconciliation for one but not the other......

If they manage to make any charges stick to Abhisit then there maybe a "we'll pardon yours if you pardon ours" deal.....

If reconcilliation was on Abhisits mind he had a strange way of showing it -

I never said it was........

Please tell me if I am mistaken but this investigation is regarding the first thirteen people killed in last years events.

I have no idea as I never brought anything like that up in my post......

As for the rest of your post please explain what it has to do with what I wrote.......if you want to stand on a soap-box please get off mine and get your own........

[ajarnpot]

its about time Thailand brought old thaksin to order about that, how many did he kill in his time in office?

[mrfarang]

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

From photos I've seen in several newspapers, there were guys wearing all black and hoods with rifles running together with the army. The Japanese journalist probably catched them on camera and was therefor shot.

Even monks were abused by the army. If monks were treated this way, imagine how the ordinary citizen was treated.

Edited November 29, 2011 by mrfarang

[yumidesign]

No chance our man in Dubai will have to answer for the non drug related deaths is there?

and the killing of innocents in the south under his direction

[philw]

tlansford just can't be taken seriously. Posting selective BS English news posts scattered here and there speak nothing compared to the volume spoken by the videos in which we see. There civilians can no longer be restrained without lethal force. This man is nothing but a troller trying to grind people's gears.

Grind, baby grind...................

The fact remains the RTA shot unarmed civilians in cold blood, in some instances using elevated sniper.

Grind on.

tlansford is quite correct and the issue needs to be addressed.

[Oberkommando]

The real reason that Thailand is at this point in its history is Thaksin and his absolute disrespect for the law, right back to when he first came to power and he and his wife choose to ride rough shod over it over the assetts case. No wonder the country is so bloody corrupt and nobody respects the law when the PM of that day is the shinning example set for the last 10 years.

The reason we are at this impasse is more to do with a subject we are not allowed to discuss, and precisely the reason why we are not allowed to discuss it. It's a critical time.

The reason Thais don't respect the law and are corrupt is a cultural one.

If you were familiar with Thai history, Thaksin is by no means the first, the worst or the last.

You obviously don't remember the previous governments before Thaksin came to power, especially the Chuan Leekpai administrations of the 90's, plagued and eventually toppled by corruption scandals.

Thaksin is merely the man of the moment.

[Chris Lawrence]

Can't have been very good sharpshooters then, seeing as how they hit medics, photographers and passers bye!

Anyway, can't have been Abhisits fault, I mean he was qualified to be PM, and anyway he went to Oxford......

:lol:

Whats worse, being a Thai Prime Minister or Ex-Thai Prime Minister. No matter what, Thais have long memories. Tit for Tat politics?

[Chris Lawrence]

It's good the police asked k. Abhisit and k. Suthep to drop by to answers a few questions. No doubt the two gentlemen will comply. I assume the statements of some other worthy gentlemen, like k. Jatuporn, k. Nattawut, Dr. weng, et at have been taken already?

In this case, which will see a (Pheu Thai) MP travel all the way to The Hague, the Netherlands to inquire about the case filed with the ICC on the 31st of January this year, anyone involved should, will and must tell their side of the story. Two foreign reporters killed, 91 death in total! We, the people, democracy minded, etc., etc., we have a right to know.

BTW those this include those killed by grenade lobbing fanatics, grenades which just by pure chance (of course) seemed to only targeted non-red-shirts?

Totally agree. Well done to this Pheu Thai MP who wants to get the truth. I am mostly keen on the findings of the deaths of the 13 soldiers who were murdered by armed insurgents, and for the ICC to find who was responsible for funding, leading and enciting this act of war against Thailand. Once the ICC rule on this then it will be very easy for the Thai government to be able to file the appropriate charges against those responsible.

Please send link to confirm 13 soldiers were killed at anytime during last years unrest

Corrected. It was not 13 but 11 soldiers and police. So as above "the 10 soldiers and police who were murdered by armed insurgents". There was the one who was shot by his own side.

One is too many

[Thaddeus]

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

From photos I've seen in several newspapers, there were guys wearing all black and hoods with rifles running together with the army. The Japanese journalist probably catched them on camera and was therefor shot.

Even monks were abused by the army. If monks were treated this way, imagine how the ordinary citizen was treated.

Got any proof of that.

And I mean reliable proof, not just a friend of a friend said or the vitriolic ramblings of a red madman.

[AleG]

The Abhisit government had no incentive at all to have death protestors on the streets, on the other hand the UDD/PTP/Thaksin camp certainly benefited from the death, the bigger the number the better. They even paraded around some bodies and count as their own the people killed by themselves, their "associates" and those who can't be ascertained by who they were killed.

The Red Shirts escalated the violence at every step, from general nuisance, to illegal occupations, seizures and detention of people, to slingshots, molotov cocktails, gun fire, grenades, bombs, and widespread arson.

They desperately needed dead bodies to feed their PR machine, the previous year (2009) protests failed to yield the carrion they expected so for the next round the upped the ante at every step.

However if one of the resident Red Shirt apologists would like to explain why and how Abhisit expected to benefit politically by ordering mass murder, they are invited to attempt it.

When someone gets shot right in front of you, one result is a certain sense of fear that would propel you away from the area pretty quick. I believe that was the intended 'benefit' the army were apparently seeking by shooting a few people among the crowd. They wanted the area cleared, as this was their brief.

Some do, some don't. Haven't you seen the videos of the "Black Shirts" shooting at the army on the 10th of May?, there are dozens of Red Shirts around them, milling about (I wish I would have saved the link to one of the videos were one of these Red Shirts was identifying the Black Shirts as Sae Daeng men and how he would kiss his feet if he was there)

Time and time again Red Shirts were around the place of gun battles with the army, in the case of the video I mentioned you could clearly see the Black Shirts shooting at ground level, through the area the protesters were at to the army on the other side.

Of course people would be injured and killed in the crossfire, and that wasn't accidental.

Or as in that other video, Red Shirts manning the barricades, throwing firecrackers and making smoke screens, in comes a Black Shirt with and AK-47 and takes a few shots at the army line.

The point is, many Red Shirts choose to stay at the scene of gun battles, either from sheer morbid curiosity stupidity or aiding the armed elements within them. That a bunch of unnarmed protestors would be caught in the crossfire was unavoidable under those circumstance.

[Buchholz]

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

From photos I've seen in several newspapers, there were guys wearing all black and hoods with rifles running together with the army. The Japanese journalist probably catched them on camera and was therefor shot.

Even monks were abused by the army. If monks were treated this way, imagine how the ordinary citizen was treated.

[AleG]

I am just a layman but isn't the fact that black uniformed AK47 armed in the crowd have something to do with it ?.

From photos I've seen in several newspapers, there were guys wearing all black and hoods with rifles running together with the army. The Japanese journalist probably catched them on camera and was therefor shot.

Even monks were abused by the army. If monks were treated this way, imagine how the ordinary citizen was treated.

So, just checking here, mrfarang, would you say that the events on the 10th of May, were black clad armed men fired on the army and murdered the commanding officer at that place, was in fact a false flag operation by the army?

[whybother]

Some do, some don't. Haven't you seen the videos of the "Black Shirts" shooting at the army on the 10th of May?, there are dozens of Red Shirts around them, milling about (I wish I would have saved the link to one of the videos were one of these Red Shirts was identifying the Black Shirts as Sae Daeng men and how he would kiss his feet if he was there)

Time and time again Red Shirts were around the place of gun battles with the army, in the case of the video I mentioned you could clearly see the Black Shirts shooting at ground level, through the area the protesters were at to the army on the other side.

Of course people would be injured and killed in the crossfire, and that wasn't accidental.

Or as in that other video, Red Shirts manning the barricades, throwing firecrackers and making smoke screens, in comes a Black Shirt with and AK-47 and takes a few shots at the army line.

The point is, many Red Shirts choose to stay at the scene of gun battles, either from sheer morbid curiosity stupidity or aiding the armed elements within them. That a bunch of unnarmed protestors would be caught in the crossfire was unavoidable under those circumstance.

(BTW ... it's April 10)

Black shirts on the night of April 10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnYT2-8QoPk

Army being hit by grenade

Edited November 29, 2011 by whybother

[hansnl]

And so it starts!

[whybother]

And so it starts!

Starts?

[Jirapa]

There's some fools on this thread basically saying "well Taksin's done a runner so why should Abhisit be questioned?" Errrr hello 90 people are dead under what was Abhisit's watch and he's here now so he should be questioned and if there's evidence against him he should be held to account. I think it's called "the Law" or something?

[phiphidon]

Present government wants to give Thaksin a pardon/amnesty as part of a reconciliation process but get its police to question previous goverments leader over protest deaths. Seems like it's reconciliation for one but not the other......

If they manage to make any charges stick to Abhisit then there maybe a "we'll pardon yours if you pardon ours" deal.....

If reconcilliation was on Abhisits mind he had a strange way of showing it - from the day the investigations started all kinds of delays and turn arounds have occurred.

Please tell me if I am mistaken but this investigation is regarding the first thirteen people killed in last years events.

The investigation was started under Abhisits administration by the DSI. The DSI came up with a conclusion, the results of which became known to Reuters (the results being that Security Forces were involved in some of the 13 deaths). Reuters were directly involved because one of the civilian deaths being investigated was their cameraman, Hiro Muramoto. The first conclusion by the DSI, after an autopsy, was that Muramoto had been killed by an M16 bullet. A visit to the DSI by a high ranking Army officer was made. Subsequently the DSI made a U Turn after another doctor (who was not present at the autopsy) made a decision in less than an hour that the offending round that caused the death of the cameraman was from an AK47 - and how was this decision made? By looking at photographs of the injury.

In September 2011 the day after the DSI handed back the investigation to the police the Head of the DSI stated that the Army was responsible for the shooting. Chalerm pushed for some progress on the investigation and this is where we are today, with Abhisit and Suthep being asked to provide information to the police - a shame they didn't think of that when Abhisit was PM, oh wait.........................

I'm not trying to score points here, I'm asking because I really don't know. The photgraphs of the Black Shirts on April 10th show them carrying Army type weaponry. If both sides have Army type weaponry how does one establish which group fired at the dead person. I'm sure you can try to reconstruct angles and trajectories, but what else gives a clear indication of culpability?

In the case of the Reuters cameraman he was shot in the chest with an exit wound in his back indicating he was facing the person who shot him. Eyewitnesses have stated that he was shot from the direction of the Army - Suthep in one of his justifications said that it was redshirts who were behind the army at the time that shot Muramoto - I think this was at the time that an AK47 round was supposed to have been involved. This implies that a red shirt has mingled with the army whilst carrying an AK47 and shot through the army lines at Muramoto with nobody noticing. Even if we go along with the line that it was a black shirt mingling with the army firing a M16 is that any more credible?

Let's for once, just accept that the eyewitnesses saw what they saw and the cameraman was shot through the chest by the army as DSI Chief Tharit stated on September 17th 2011. Now if a cameraman has been shot and killed by the army there is a good chance that several other people (redshirts) have been shot and killed as well by the army. On April 10th in the Panfah area 5 soldiers were killed, and 21 civilians, at least 8 of the civilians were shot in the head.

http://www.nationmul...--30145106.html

http://www.channelne...1153778/1/.html

[lannarebirth]

Present government wants to give Thaksin a pardon/amnesty as part of a reconciliation process but get its police to question previous goverments leader over protest deaths. Seems like it's reconciliation for one but not the other......

If they manage to make any charges stick to Abhisit then there maybe a "we'll pardon yours if you pardon ours" deal.....

If reconcilliation was on Abhisits mind he had a strange way of showing it - from the day the investigations started all kinds of delays and turn arounds have occurred.

Please tell me if I am mistaken but this investigation is regarding the first thirteen people killed in last years events.

The investigation was started under Abhisits administration by the DSI. The DSI came up with a conclusion, the results of which became known to Reuters (the results being that Security Forces were involved in some of the 13 deaths). Reuters were directly involved because one of the civilian deaths being investigated was their cameraman, Hiro Muramoto. The first conclusion by the DSI, after an autopsy, was that Muramoto had been killed by an M16 bullet. A visit to the DSI by a high ranking Army officer was made. Subsequently the DSI made a U Turn after another doctor (who was not present at the autopsy) made a decision in less than an hour that the offending round that caused the death of the cameraman was from an AK47 - and how was this decision made? By looking at photographs of the injury.

In September 2011 the day after the DSI handed back the investigation to the police the Head of the DSI stated that the Army was responsible for the shooting. Chalerm pushed for some progress on the investigation and this is where we are today, with Abhisit and Suthep being asked to provide information to the police - a shame they didn't think of that when Abhisit was PM, oh wait.........................

I'm not trying to score points here, I'm asking because I really don't know. The photgraphs of the Black Shirts on April 10th show them carrying Army type weaponry. If both sides have Army type weaponry how does one establish which group fired at the dead person. I'm sure you can try to reconstruct angles and trajectories, but what else gives a clear indication of culpability?

In the case of the Reuters cameraman he was shot in the chest with an exit wound in his back indicating he was facing the person who shot him. Eyewitnesses have stated that he was shot from the direction of the Army - Suthep in one of his justifications said that it was redshirts who were behind the army at the time that shot Muramoto - I think this was at the time that an AK47 round was supposed to have been involved. This implies that a red shirt has mingled with the army whilst carrying an AK47 and shot through the army lines at Muramoto with nobody noticing. Even if we go along with the line that it was a black shirt mingling with the army firing a M16 is that any more credible?

Let's for once, just accept that the eyewitnesses saw what they saw and the cameraman was shot through the chest by the army as DSI Chief Tharit stated on September 17th 2011. Now if a cameraman has been shot and killed by the army there is a good chance that several other people (redshirts) have been shot and killed as well by the army. On April 10th in the Panfah area 5 soldiers were killed, and 21 civilians, at least 8 of the civilians were shot in the head.

http://www.nationmul...--30145106.html

http://www.channelne...1153778/1/.html

You may be right, or wrong, I can't say as I'm not equipped with the specific facts nor a video that might bias my opinion. I DO remember however that there was a video of that very same melee where a Red Shirt had his head blown off and the angle that his brains shot out and direction of fall would seem to indicate the shot came from behind his own lines. Other Red Shirts immediately adjacent to the poor dead guy immediately turned to look behind them, seeming to indicate they thought that was the direction the bullet came from. Got any intelligence on that one?

And while you're ruminating on that maybe you can answer why all those Red Shirt bodies were subsequently stolen from the hospital prior to there being any autopsies conducted on them.