Caution About Atm Scam Artist Working In Kata/Karon Area

[kenny999]

sorry to hear about losing so much money but appreciate you telling people about it, has anyone encountered the farang sounds Australian, he approaches you and asks to borrow money to fill up his car, this happened to me a few months back my answer was no!!

Thanks for the loan Kenny, that was me !

my post says I said no so the loan was for nothing, but you are most welcome!!

[jocko]

I used the atm near otop in Patong yesterday a got my money and card out as i am about to walk away a guy behinds me tells me to wait for reciept i inform him i dont want reciept he suggests i put my card back in and request a reciept i told i dont want reciept so i leave him to use the atm and of course he puts his card in pretends to ask for money and nothing happens he takes out the card and walk's away i am not sure if he was Thai maybe Indian his English was very good so be carefull i am sure he was a scam artist if i had seen a cop i would have reported mt concerns.

[walker600]

Sorry for your loss and thanks for the heads up...

[markg]

This EXACT scam is up on Youtube

It starts from about 40seconds.

You can clearly see that the thieves get hold of the victims card and scan it.

Never let your card out of your sight.

Ever.

As an aside, my GF was buying some furniture in SuperCheap (the original big one) and when you pay by card, it's done on a different cash register, some distance from the furniture cash register. They take the card and are gone for some time. She was ok with that. I followed them !!

[modafinil]

Good video markg, interesting to see that both the thieves were disguised - something to watch out for.

[markg]

Good video markg, interesting to see that both the thieves were disguised - something to watch out for.

Not hugely disguised. The farang guy was only wearing a baseball cap and sun glasses - quite normal attire in Phuket. The other guy had his motorbike helmet on which is a bit suspect but not altogether that unusual.

When using an ATM, have an imaginary 1metre radius space around you and make sure alam bells ring in your head if anyone comes into that space. Some ATMs (I think Siam commercial) have small mirrors on them so you can keep an eye on who is behind you. Always cover the keypad when typing in your number. If you feel uncomfotable using the ATM for any reason - go with your gut instinct. There are plenty of others around !

[NamKangMan]

He would have been using a skimmer, if it was him. Google "ATM skimmer" for more information. There is plenty of info about it on the net. However, they usually copy your card details to a blank card, immediately. In most cases, a laptop and card reader are not far from the target ATM. In the west, the equipment is usually in a car that is parked not far away. The money is taken out ASAP. It is unusual the money was taken a week later. Is it possible the bank employee has done a withdrawal? You will need to know the money has come out of an ATM and not an "over the counter withdrawal" to put the staff member in the clear. I mean, you've created a perfect opportunity for the bank teller to do a dodgy transaction on your account. Of course, the bank employee would have to rely on the police not investigating your report in order to get away with it, or, sharing the proceeds with them. Just something to think about.

I only use ATM's inside the bank or inside a shopping centre, mainly Junceylon. Cameras everywhere, locked up at night etc etc. A lot more safer. I still do the usual drill of checking the hole in the wall and placing my hand over the key pad when entering my PIN.

Unfortunately, Phuket has become a "trust no one and suspect everyone" sort of place. Not to mention people always wanting to "borrow" money. You have to be vigilant here and you should always self assess yourself for becoming complacent. Anyway, thanks for reaffirming that this crime is prevalent on the island and bringing it to the attention of members.

Edited January 2, 2012 by NamKangMan

[glassdude007]

wow tuff break thanks for the heads up......

If I were you I'd hang around that ATM in the shadows .....

Maybe he will return too the scene of the crime too find a new mark and you can catch the bugger...

good luck

[Valentine]

Saw a news item about an expat from Kathu who withdrew 5,000 from an SCB ATM on Nanai. The next day 160,000 was missing from his account. He said 3 men speaking French stood behind him while he was making the withdrawal but did not attempt to help him. This is the advice from SCB.

- Never allow anyone to “help” you use an ATM. If necessary, walk away and use a different ATM;

- Use only ATMs in high-traffic areas with CCTV coverage, where skimmers will find it difficult to fit their devices without being detected;

- Check the keypad. If it is not flush with the surface around it, don’t use that ATM;

- Use ATMs that have a “tongue”, usually of green plastic, sticking out below the card slot;

- Change your PIN number frequently.

[petercallen]

Unfortunately, the police won't do anything and your bank won't make good the money.

Only time I've been scammed was with my visa card. US$10,000 was used from my card in Thailand.

As I could prove that I was in Vietnam for the whole period and that I had my card with me (I used it there), the bank gave me back all the money plus costs very quickly.

I actually know what happened. I bought a suit in Siam Paragon, Bangkok and used my card to pay for it. The staff must have passed on the number, name and security number to a scammer with a blank card.

This is why the only place in Asia I will use my Visa card as a credit card is in Singapore.

Same thing happened to me with my master card when i was first here second trip to phuket

Get back to Australia and wanted to buy a bottle of Bundaberg rum at airport

I had not used my credit card on the trip but i could not buy the bottle on credit a message

came up contact the bank

Go to the bank and find out $19800 had been charged to it, purchases one week in china

and one week in France, i showed the bank my passport which proved i had been in Thailand

the whole time and my credit card had never left my possession, i still lost my credit rating for

3 weeks while the bank sorted it out

[Valentine]

My bank in NZ were on the ball a few years back. They called & asked if I was currently making a $2,000 transaction in Shanghai. I said no as I was in Phuket at the time. I never heard anymore about it & nothing showed up on my statement.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Valentine

[chiang mai]

Get a stills grab from the ATM camera and give it to the police, maybe if they publish it or if they know what the guy looks like that will help.

[chessplayer]

http://www.siamcommercialbank-unwilling.co.uk/2011/05/phuket-atm-scams-run-rife/

Note the dates. So the exact scam has occurred for about a year and published and people still fall for it and more surprisingly, the scammers still follow the exact same path,.

[4evermaat]

Let's be clear. I don't expect money back or any action. I blame myself. This is just a cautionary tale and might just prevent the same happening to you.

cameras smaller than a fingernail can be bought for a couple bucks. Anyways you dont need the pin when the guy can just have a merchant account for a fake business and swipe your card like at 7/11.

Then it is not ATM transaction anymore, and an appeal to the bank could be successful. Now LiK stands no chance, sorry.

I really appreciate LivingInKata not turning this into a victim rant, as so many do on these forums. Here was a recent post on a different type of fraud http://www.thaivisa....tolen-atm-card/ . It was actually more of the OP's carelessness in that post, but one of the positives about that thread is that a lot of good prevenative measures came out for how people could safeguard themselves. In summary:

- USA (and other westernized countries) Visa/MC credit/debit cards offer more protections, especially for charge transactions. In short, they tend to give the cardholder the benefit of the doubt and you usually have no problems getting your money back for fraudulent POS (point of sale) transactions. Thailand and most other countries, you must treat your ATM card as if it were cash. Until you cancel your card, the bank is not responsible for any charges.

- You can call your thai bank or using automated machine or in branch, request the POS limit to 0. This way, even if your card is skimmed, the only method to steal money is to know the pin #.

- Use ATMs in well lit areas, preferably inside shopping malls. Take 5 seconds to inspect the ATM briefly at the card entry, pin keypad, and general condition of ATM body for anything suspicious. Cover your body/hand over the keypad as you type your pin.

- Never let the ATM card out of your sight. Avoid letting anyone help you with your ATM transaction (until after you have securely entered your pin)

- have two bank accounts, one without an ATM card or one with ATM card POS limit to 0. "load" (transfer funds to) the account with the ATM card attached to it (or the debit card you use for spending) from either internet banking or phone banking.

- setup SMS alerts. BBK only has the alerts over 1000 baht purchases, but Kasikorn bank has alerts for 20 bt/mo where you get an alert with any change in account balance over a specified threshold. Ian talked about adding more SMS alerts for BBK system in 2012 sometime.

Having an ATM card is about balancing convenience with security. The ultimate security would be no ATM card. Other options would be ATM card with one or more of the suggestions above.

BTW, I recently had a situation where I had a transaction voided by a major merchant (about 15 min apart from original charge). I didn't get the credit back to debit card and I ended up having to submit a claim with the copy of the voided slip. After 1 week, I got my funds refunded, despite bkk admitting that the merchant did void the transaction in their system, but they did not void it "properly" They certainly charged it properly . The total time was almost two weeks from the original void date to receive funds, and that was with obvious/'irrefutable" proof; no fraud involved. So LivingInKata can report the transaction, but extremely unlikely that he will see any of the funds.

A merchant account isn't an overnight process, plus it leaves a papertrail. At best, the scammer may get away with it once or twice. If you have some big score purchases, and can withdraw the credits before transaction is flagged, fair enough. But it wouldn't last long. The chargeback claims would flag/shut down merchant account fairly quickly. Most scammers avoid papertrails unless they are going after big scores.

Edited January 12, 2012 by 4evermaat

[4evermaat]

This EXACT scam is up on Youtube

It starts from about 40seconds.

You can clearly see that the thieves get hold of the victims card and scan it.

Never let your card out of your sight.

Ever.

As an aside, my GF was buying some furniture in SuperCheap (the original big one) and when you pay by card, it's done on a different cash register, some distance from the furniture cash register. They take the card and are gone for some time. She was ok with that. I followed them !!

Another thing you could have done, since you suspected it may be a scam, was go to another ATM and change your PIN number... I have done it with my Siam Commercial and Bangkok Bank accounts. I should probably transfer some small amount to one of my other accounts and use that ATM card instead of using the ATM card from my main account as well. Sorry for your loss and thanks for the heads up. I have read about a similar scam before.

I think replacing the ATM card is easier and offers double-protection. The worst thing it would do is cause a minor inconvenience for people who have recurring billing with a specific card #. ATM card replacement is free if you remember your pin or if you have old card.

He would have been using a skimmer, if it was him. Google "ATM skimmer" for more information. There is plenty of info about it on the net. However, they usually copy your card details to a blank card, immediately. In most cases, a laptop and card reader are not far from the target ATM. In the west, the equipment is usually in a car that is parked not far away. The money is taken out ASAP. It is unusual the money was taken a week later. Is it possible the bank employee has done a withdrawal? You will need to know the money has come out of an ATM and not an "over the counter withdrawal" to put the staff member in the clear. I mean, you've created a perfect opportunity for the bank teller to do a dodgy transaction on your account. Of course, the bank employee would have to rely on the police not investigating your report in order to get away with it, or, sharing the proceeds with them. Just something to think about.

I only use ATM's inside the bank or inside a shopping centre, mainly Junceylon. Cameras everywhere, locked up at night etc etc. A lot more safer. I still do the usual drill of checking the hole in the wall and placing my hand over the key pad when entering my PIN.

Unfortunately, Phuket has become a "trust no one and suspect everyone" sort of place. Not to mention people always wanting to "borrow" money. You have to be vigilant here and you should always self assess yourself for becoming complacent. Anyway, thanks for reaffirming that this crime is prevalent on the island and bringing it to the attention of members.

Because of the previous post I quoted and reading this post, plus a post in Pattaya forum, I am more careful at the ATM. I was already careful, but now I shield my hand when I type in pin on one side, and use my body to shield the other half or i type in such a way that it makes it difficult for someone to know which keys i press. I may even wipe each key afterwards, so fingerprints cannot be lifted. Takes two seconds.

[Jimi007]

This EXACT scam is up on Youtube

It starts from about 40seconds.

You can clearly see that the thieves get hold of the victims card and scan it.

Never let your card out of your sight.

Ever.

As an aside, my GF was buying some furniture in SuperCheap (the original big one) and when you pay by card, it's done on a different cash register, some distance from the furniture cash register. They take the card and are gone for some time. She was ok with that. I followed them !!

Another thing you could have done, since you suspected it may be a scam, was go to another ATM and change your PIN number... I have done it with my Siam Commercial and Bangkok Bank accounts. I should probably transfer some small amount to one of my other accounts and use that ATM card instead of using the ATM card from my main account as well. Sorry for your loss and thanks for the heads up. I have read about a similar scam before.

I think replacing the ATM card is easier and offers double-protection. The worst thing it would do is cause a minor inconvenience for people who have recurring billing with a specific card #. ATM card replacement is free if you remember your pin or if you have old card.

He would have been using a skimmer, if it was him. Google "ATM skimmer" for more information. There is plenty of info about it on the net. However, they usually copy your card details to a blank card, immediately. In most cases, a laptop and card reader are not far from the target ATM. In the west, the equipment is usually in a car that is parked not far away. The money is taken out ASAP. It is unusual the money was taken a week later. Is it possible the bank employee has done a withdrawal? You will need to know the money has come out of an ATM and not an "over the counter withdrawal" to put the staff member in the clear. I mean, you've created a perfect opportunity for the bank teller to do a dodgy transaction on your account. Of course, the bank employee would have to rely on the police not investigating your report in order to get away with it, or, sharing the proceeds with them. Just something to think about.

I only use ATM's inside the bank or inside a shopping centre, mainly Junceylon. Cameras everywhere, locked up at night etc etc. A lot more safer. I still do the usual drill of checking the hole in the wall and placing my hand over the key pad when entering my PIN.

Unfortunately, Phuket has become a "trust no one and suspect everyone" sort of place. Not to mention people always wanting to "borrow" money. You have to be vigilant here and you should always self assess yourself for becoming complacent. Anyway, thanks for reaffirming that this crime is prevalent on the island and bringing it to the attention of members.

Because of the previous post I quoted and reading this post, plus a post in Pattaya forum, I am more careful at the ATM. I was already careful, but now I shield my hand when I type in pin on one side, and use my body to shield the other half or i type in such a way that it makes it difficult for someone to know which keys i press. I may even wipe each key afterwards, so fingerprints cannot be lifted. Takes two seconds.

Are you sure replacement ATM cards are free at Thai banks? I remember paying for my Thai banks ATM cards and they also charge an annual fee. I also had to pay for a new bank book that I had accidentally washed. Plus you have to go the the branch that issued the card or book, to get anything done. You can change your pin # at any of the bank's ATMs, free.

[4evermaat]

Are you sure replacement ATM cards are free at Thai banks? I remember paying for my Thai banks ATM cards and they also charge an annual fee. I also had to pay for a new bank book that I had accidentally washed. Plus you have to go the the branch that issued the card or book, to get anything done. You can change your pin # at any of the bank's ATMs, free.

That's what I remember a rep from bangkok bank telling me in phuket when I was opening a new account, although maybe it was BS. The annual fee is 200 baht, but between that time, if you need to replace the card for any reason it is free. I've done a replacement once with a card with chip to a card without a chip and they didn't charge me. She took the old one, pulled out the stack of nameless cards and handed me one, and updated something in the computer.

Now if you lose the card, but remember the pin#,and have your passbook and ID you can get new atm card free (never tried this). If you lose passbook, but have atm card and ID, you are supposed to get a new passbook for free (never tried). Maybe someone else can confirm this?

I did order a new atm card with my name preprinted and it was 300 baht. It will have its own separate 200 baht annual fee.

[chuppachops]

Thankyou for the warning.

[beachyman]

I always try to move the ATM card reader and see if it is truly attached. Also, log in online and set a daily limit - mine is 20k. Mind you it is just for cash withdrawals, you have to set the debit card use too. If you need more than that in a day you can always go into a branch.

Sorry for your loss, hope you catch them w police help.

[LivinginKata]

Sorry for your loss, hope you catch them w police help.

Police never ever got back to me. Bank no help at all, would not even tell me ATM location where money withdrawn. Any bank info including any video only released to police. Much as I expected. Keep on looking for the same scam every time I am near an ATM, even when passing by. Never know, one day I may catch up with these guys. Warn off any other victims, take some photos.

[NamKangMan]

Sorry for your loss, hope you catch them w police help.

Police never ever got back to me. Bank no help at all, would not even tell me ATM location where money withdrawn. Any bank info including any video only released to police. Much as I expected. Keep on looking for the same scam every time I am near an ATM, even when passing by. Never know, one day I may catch up with these guys. Warn off any other victims, take some photos.

LIK - what shows up on your online banking statement? Does it show where the withdrawal took place? If the bank/police will not tell you, I would start to become suspicious of that bank staff member you reported it to. Like I said, you created the perfrect opportunity for them to do the withdrawal, whilst you, the victim, are suspecting the skimmers.

[Fookhaht]

About a month ago, on a similar thread (about banks not covering any of your ATM losses in Thailand), I took a suggestion:

Have at least two accounts.

1. One account (a non-ATM account) holds the bulk of your funds.
   
2. The other account (ATM-card account) only holds enough funds you would be willing to lose (for me 3,000-5,000 baht).
   When I need more than that, via ATM, I just take a few minutes to switch the needed funds over from the larger account to the ATM account (via desktop PC, Android phone, etc.). I rest a lot easier now, knowing I am limiting my liabilities from fraud and theft in Thailand, especially those that are not covered by bank policy or laws in LOS. It's worth the 1/2 hour or so to set up another account.
   

[LivinginKata]

LIK - what shows up on your online banking statement? Does it show where the withdrawal took place? If the bank/police will not tell you, I would start to become suspicious of that bank staff member you reported it to. Like I said, you created the perfrect opportunity for them to do the withdrawal, whilst you, the victim, are suspecting the skimmers.

I don't have on-line banking. Book update shows date, a code = CSN. That's it. My Kasikorn bank tells me the money was taken from a Krung Thai bank ATM. Kasikorn can't tell which ATM and Krung Thai won't tell me anything. I have no idea why i should suspect any bank staff member, money was long gone after i reported it. Now I don't have an ATM card with Kasikorn, easy enough to go into a branch, show my passport, and take money out.

[chessplayer]

I disagree with setting up online banking as this opens up the possibility of online fraud. Lik, since your scam is exactly as was reported by the press a number of months ago, I will find practically no reason to suspect the banker.

[NamKangMan]

About a month ago, on a similar thread (about banks not covering any of your ATM losses in Thailand), I took a suggestion:

Have at least two accounts.

1. One account (a non-ATM account) holds the bulk of your funds.
   
2. The other account (ATM-card account) only holds enough funds you would be willing to lose (for me 3,000-5,000 baht).
   When I need more than that, via ATM, I just take a few minutes to switch the needed funds over from the larger account to the ATM account (via desktop PC, Android phone, etc.). I rest a lot easier now, knowing I am limiting my liabilities from fraud and theft in Thailand, especially those that are not covered by bank policy or laws in LOS. It's worth the 1/2 hour or so to set up another account.
   

I've been doing what you describe for years now, but my main account is still in my home country, where it earns a lot more interest, and I only keep around $500US at any one time in the Thai account.

When it gets low, I top it up with online banking. I pay a bit in fees, but for peace of mind, it's worth it. So, at worse case scenario, and my account is cleaned out, I will only lose a few hundred dollars.

For larger bills or purchases. Eg. rent, new motorbike etc. I transfer the money into my Thai account and pull it out straight away and then pay the bill or make the purchase, always only ever leaving a few hundred dollars in the account.

I'm also a little weary of the bank staff. You go into the branch to make a transaction and they can see how much money you have in your account. If you have several million baht, they know your address and this information maybe passed on to a criminal gang and your house robbed. Especially if you have made a large withdrawal that day.

Also, if you are in business here and make large deposits on the same day around the same time, this intelligence can also be passed on and one day you may be held up for the takings before making it to the bank.

These safe guards are not just Phuket/Thailand specific. They are safegurads for any city in any country.

[NamKangMan]

LIK - what shows up on your online banking statement? Does it show where the withdrawal took place? If the bank/police will not tell you, I would start to become suspicious of that bank staff member you reported it to. Like I said, you created the perfrect opportunity for them to do the withdrawal, whilst you, the victim, are suspecting the skimmers.

I don't have on-line banking. Book update shows date, a code = CSN. That's it. My Kasikorn bank tells me the money was taken from a Krung Thai bank ATM. Kasikorn can't tell which ATM and Krung Thai won't tell me anything. I have no idea why i should suspect any bank staff member, money was long gone after i reported it. Now I don't have an ATM card with Kasikorn, easy enough to go into a branch, show my passport, and take money out.

See my post on page 2.

If it was the skimmer, an unusual MO for that crime. Money taken 1 week later etc. Obviously, you would need more information, which no one seems to want to give you. How many transactions were there? A skimmer will do several maximum transactions, shortly after card data capture, and clean the account out. This one off transaction, one week later, is different.

[NamKangMan]

I disagree with setting up online banking as this opens up the possibility of online fraud. Lik, since your scam is exactly as was reported by the press a number of months ago, I will find practically no reason to suspect the banker.

My online account is linked to my mobile phone sim card. Every single transaction online requires an "SMS-OTP" - (an sms one time password) As you have gathered, the password, one password for one transaction, is texted to your mobile phone, so, even if my online bank account is "hacked" the hacker needs my phone, or sim, to be able to transfer money from my account. My phone and sim both have PIN's as well. It's pretty secure.

In any case, I never really access my Thai account online, just the online account from my home country which has the best commercially available internet securtiy and I also use a VPN and my computer has a decent antivirus program that is always updated. I have never had a problem and I log on frequently to pay accounts back home etc.

The only way I can see that I could be the victim of crime/fraud is with a threat of violence. Eg. home invasion with a gun to my head and forced to log on, enter username and password and have my mobile phone, which would only net the armed robbers a max of around $500US, OR, a dodgy bank employee using information about my account that only a bank employ would have access to in order to process a false transaction.

I'm not as established in Phuket as many others on TV. Eg. will not buy a house, business etc, but that's because I chose not to leave myself exposed here. This has been debated in other threads, however, for the ones who are established, online banking is very handy. You can pay your bills, send money to Issan, top up your phone etc etc all from your poolside whilst sipping a cocktail. No need to take a number, sit down and wait to be called, like in a branch. There is really nothing to fear with online banking.

Maybe Khun Woody can do an article on it one day to put some people's mind at ease.

Edited January 16, 2012 by NamKangMan

[stevenl]

Why do you keep seeking problems with Thais, in this case bank staff, when there are no problems with them? He was scammed by a foreigner skimming the card, end of story.

[NamKangMan]

Why do you keep seeking problems with Thais, in this case bank staff, when there are no problems with them? He was scammed by a foreigner skimming the card, end of story.

I don't keep seeking problems with Thai's. There are just as many dodgy farang on Phuket as there are dodgy Thai's.

If they skimmed his card, why not clean the account out???? Several transactions, one after the other, until either a daily limit has been reached, there are insufficient funds, or the owner has cancelled the card. THIS IS WHAT THESE CRIMINALS NORMALLY DO.

What has happened on this occassion is different, as well as the the OP not being 100% sure they actually captured his card's data.

I have no doubt the OP came into contact with a crook who was looking to skim, but whether he was sucessful that day we do not know because the bank/police are not supplying any documents, photographs etc etc. Certainly, the OP's actions after that contact created an opportunity to the bank member of staff. Nothing wrong with considering this hypothesis.

You never let your card out of your site at a shop or restaurant when paying for something because the staff can write the numbers down or skim it, what makes bank staff holier than now?

Anyway, like you told me I would make a good polititian, you would make a great Thai policeman. I can just hear you now, "27 stab wounds - 10 of them fatal - suicide - case closed." :) :)

Oh, yeh - end of story. :)

[katabeachbum]

Why do you keep seeking problems with Thais, in this case bank staff, when there are no problems with them? He was scammed by a foreigner skimming the card, end of story.

I don't keep seeking problems with Thai's. There are just as many dodgy farang on Phuket as there are dodgy Thai's.

If they skimmed his card, why not clean the account out???? Several transactions, one after the other, until either a daily limit has been reached, there are insufficient funds, or the owner has cancelled the card. THIS IS WHAT THESE CRIMINALS NORMALLY DO.

What has happened on this occassion is different, as well as the the OP not being 100% sure they actually captured his card's data.

I have no doubt the OP came into contact with a crook who was looking to skim, but whether he was sucessful that day we do not know because the bank/police are not supplying any documents, photographs etc etc. Certainly, the OP's actions after that contact created an opportunity to the bank member of staff. Nothing wrong with considering this hypothesis.

You never let your card out of your site at a shop or restaurant when paying for something because the staff can write the numbers down or skim it, what makes bank staff holier than now?

Anyway, like you told me I would make a good polititian, you would make a great Thai policeman. I can just hear you now, "27 stab wounds - 10 of them fatal - suicide - case closed."

Oh, yeh - end of story.

must be a hard life considering all these potential scams every single time you want to do something

of course I let my CC out of sight when paying in restaurants or wherever or online, do you walk around with the cashier or follow the datastream?

as for a bank employee scamming LiK, how would that take place without card and PIN? records show an atm withdrawel, even in which atm machine

as for internett banking, TH banks are not considered safe, so should be used for accounts with low balance only

and my ATM accounts I try to keep below a million baht balance, and have just reduced dayly withdrawel limit to 100k baht

No issues during 9 years of fulltime living here

as I am sure neither will LiK have anymore, as lesson learned