Amnesty Will Lead To Repetition: Thai Opinion

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Amnesty will lead to repetition

The Nation

If we cannot decide whether or not it's illegal to issue a new passport to a convicted fugitive, we have little hope of achieving national reconciliation

There is a fugitive from the law who lives in the Burmese sector of the infamous Golden Triangle who, at one time, like Thaksin Shinawatra, held a Thai national identity card and probably a passport.

"Wei", also known as Prasit Cheewinnitipanya, was convicted of drug trafficking. He is one of the top commanders in the United Wa State Army (UWSA), possibly the world's largest armed drug trafficking gang, which produces heroin and methamphetamines.

Thaksin, on the other hand, was convicted on corruption charges and abuse of power. Like Wei, Thaksin fled the country. But unlike Wei, people flock to see Thaksin.

Only media people want to see Wei, but the Wa commander is camera shy, although his superior in the UWSA has granted several interviews over the years.

Like Thaksin, the UWSA is trying hard to be seen as legitimate, with legitimate grievances. Unlike Thaksin, the Wa don't have a Thai government to whitewash them. Perhaps if the UWSA chairman Bao Yuxiang got a sister elected as prime minister of Burma, things might be different for them.

The reason for bringing Wei into this debate is to provide a stark distinction between two criminal cases. One involved a leader of a drug army who will probably never be forgiven for his crime. The other is, of course, former prime minister Thaksin, one of the most divisive figures in Thai political history. He is loved by many and despised by many, and this latter fact was enough to throw a wrench into his plan to galvanise power and become a sort of a political emperor in a kingdom.

But instead of confronting Thaksin over his crimes, many of those who opposed him instead threw all sorts of accusations, fairly and unfairly, such as the claim that he was a threat to the monarchy. For all we know, he might have been. But many of his critics were too lazy. Coupled with an ineffective bureaucratic machine, they went for broke, upping the stakes by bringing the monarchy into the picture, even supporting the 2006 coup that ousted him. And now nobody knows how to come down from it all.

A group of lawyers think they have got the answer to it all and suggest that the clock be turned back to before the coup that removed Thaksin. They want to nullify all actions brought as a result of the military action. But what about the previous coup and the one before that? What about the damage and suffering Thaksin has inflicted on the country, both during his term and after it?

Punishing the coup leaders for their crime is not a bad idea, but if we were to take the lawyers' advice, there will probably be another coup. We have the law of the land and we need to make use of it. Our legal system may not be perfect, but it is our responsibility to make it better.

However, we have come to a complete circle, only without Thaksin, the politician who got the highest number of votes and therefore believed that justified all of his actions. Right now we have a Parliament dominated by Thaksin's supporters. His red-shirt supporters have nothing special to cry about other than the same grievances that the rest of the Thai people have - the incompetence of our bureaucrats and elected leaders, the overall quality of life and the difficulties in making a living.

But if we are going to move forward as a society and nation, as a people, we will have to hold on to something that can stand the test of time. That means all wrongdoers have to be punished - from those who took over Government House and then Suvarnabhumi Airport to the red-shirt leaders who broke up an East Asian Summit in Pattaya and burned down shopping malls and town halls across the country.

Unlike Wei, Thaksin has been given a new passport by the Thai Foreign Ministry. They issued it one day after the fugitive made the request. It's amazing how fast our bureaucrats can move if they really want to. Or have to.

Again there is this question over the legality of issuing a passport to a fugitive. With all those law degrees from universities abroad, the public still can't get a straight answer from politicians or bureaucrats about whether issuing Thaksin a passport is legal or illegal. Certainly, Commander Wei wouldn't mind getting one so easily.

-- The Nation 2011-12-22

[exeter]

This is sure a tricky situation and does not help reconcilliation of the country, unless of course you are red shirt because it seem they only see two things. My way and Taksin. I am not a legal expert but it does not seem right to me that th passport was issued especially at a time when the government should be trying re build the country after the floods and plan to manage them better next time.

There seems, sadly , too many people involved who talk about reconcilliation just so long as they dont have to compromise. Some individuals need to put the country first for a change and that is a really big ask.

[UweSchwarzbach]

But if we are going to move forward as a society and nation, as a people, we will have to hold on to something that can stand the test of time. That means all wrongdoers have to be punished - from those who took over Government House and then Suvarnabhumi Airport to the red-shirt leaders who broke up an East Asian Summit in Pattaya and burned down shopping malls and town halls across the country.

I couldn't agree more but with always one or the other side in power this won't happen. Politicians are too much interested in themselves and lining their pockets with more taxpayer's money than seeking real justice for all.

[Moruya]

The one remaining pillar in this set of ruins is law and order. Unfortunately there are too many people who believe they don't need to adhere to it. The police force doesn't enforce the law and can be bought off. If people don't like any of the judiciarys' decisions they try mob rule. To cap it all we now have a government that thinks an electoral mandate means they can do what they want and they jumped into bed with the mob.

Thaksin wants everything returned to the way it was pre-coup but conveniently forgets that he had resigned as PM and had just a couple of weeks to organise fresh elections before the deadline so had missed the boat. What would Thailand have done had there not been a coup?

[tragickingdom]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

[whybother]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

Do you think that if the army were not able to give themselves amnesty that they would ever relinquish power?

What ever you think of the coup, the military quickly moved back to having elections. There was no military dictatorship. The military decided that they didn't like the direction that Thaksin was going and decided to step in. They created a constitution that was supposedly tougher on corruption and making sure the checks and balances would be harder to push aside.

I'm not saying the coup was a good thing, but it can't be changed. Move on.

[gamini]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

Why do you so dislike the Elite. Abhisit and Korn are Elite but certainly not crooked. Are you jealous of them ?. Do you hate PM Cameron and the successful Singaporean Elite Government. Some of us expats might be termed as elites but we do not express our hate for people of other backgrounds like you do.

[wxyz]

Ryan Gaerity: I've come here to create a new country for you called chaos, and a new government called anarchy.

"Blown Away" (1994)

[JAG]

Why do you so dislike the Elite. Abhisit and Korn are Elite but certainly not crooked. Are you jealous of them ?. Do you hate PM Cameron and the successful Singaporean Elite Government. Some of us expats might be termed as elites but we do not express our hate for people of other backgrounds like you do.

I am sure you don't Gamini, but one of the most significant features of postings on this particular forum are the number of regular posters who express hatred and often abuse those Thais and Farang who do not follow their views. "Thick as pig muck" was one expression, used yesterday to describe Pheu Thai supporters! I also recall at least one suggestion, a couple of months ago that after a coup, the current government should be shot! We've also had posts actively encouraging Civil War. There is plenty of hate being put about!

Edited December 22, 2011 by JAG

[OzMick]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

Avoiding capital gains tax within the law is one thing - using your position to enact a law to avoid your own tax liability is quite another; a clear conflict of interest and corruption, as is the charge on which he was convicted.

Try to avoid moral relativity - it is a senseless circular argument, and in this case, particularly invalid.

[Siam Simon]

Why do you so dislike the Elite. Abhisit and Korn are Elite but certainly not crooked. Are you jealous of them ?. Do you hate PM Cameron and the successful Singaporean Elite Government. Some of us expats might be termed as elites but we do not express our hate for people of other backgrounds like you do.

I am sure you don't Gamini, but one of the most significant features of postings on this particular forum are the number of regular posters who express hatred and often abuse those Thais and Farang who do not follow their views. "Thick as pig muck" was one expression, used yesterday to describe Pheu Thai supporters! I also recall at least one suggestion, a couple of months ago that after a coup, the current government should be shot! We've also had posts actively encouraging Civil War. There is plenty of hate being put about!

I rarely stick my metaphorical tongue up other posters' metaphorical backsides, JAG, but .....well said.

[Siam Simon]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

Avoiding capital gains tax within the law is one thing - using your position to enact a law to avoid your own tax liability is quite another; a clear conflict of interest and corruption, as is the charge on which he was convicted.

Try to avoid moral relativity - it is a senseless circular argument, and in this case, particularly invalid.

The forum has been informed time and time again about the support that Thaksin received over the law change that enabled him to sell to Temasek in the way he did. It breaks the forum rules to discuss some of the beneficiaries, but they can be found easily via googling the parties we can name. It's all morally wrong, of course, but who on this forum is brave enough to take on the beneficiaries who can't be discussed here, rather than conveniently and incorrectly laying all the greed at Thaksin's door?

[OzMick]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

Avoiding capital gains tax within the law is one thing - using your position to enact a law to avoid your own tax liability is quite another; a clear conflict of interest and corruption, as is the charge on which he was convicted.

Try to avoid moral relativity - it is a senseless circular argument, and in this case, particularly invalid.

The forum has been informed time and time again about the support that Thaksin received over the law change that enabled him to sell to Temasek in the way he did. It breaks the forum rules to discuss some of the beneficiaries, but they can be found easily via googling the parties we can name. It's all morally wrong, of course, but who on this forum is brave enough to take on the beneficiaries who can't be discussed here, rather than conveniently and incorrectly laying all the greed at Thaksin's door?

It is not only morally wrong, it is LEGALLY wrong, despite who else may have benefited. and there was quite sufficient benefit to the Shinawatra clan for a charge of corruption against him to be warranted. HE was the PM and HIS party enacted the law. And in time, hopefully he will be convicted and jailed for his crimes.

You might consider my comment about moral relativity - "Little Johnny got some too !" just doesn't work.

[Siam Simon]

The Nation is a funny populist newspaper, but they are spot on. Every time when the likes of the Nation support an amnesty for soldiers on the lose who have raped democracy by committing a capital offense, tagging a coup, they get amnesty or pardoned by themselves and the crooked elite. INstead of locking them up for life they get the feeling that they can get away with it. So if they just lost another election that threat their corrupt life they simply stage another coup, defying the wishes of the people.

I am afraid though that there are two rule books, one for the army and royalists and one for the rest of the Thai people. As long as there are to rule books Thaksin qualifies for a amnesty. Not only that, the Banharn, Suthep, Charoen Pokhand and all other high valued families of precisely like Thaksin do. Not paying taxes over capital gains, something what is by the way standard in almost all developed countries. It is crew the poor and help the rich. Even Obama does it, and Obama is the reason why Bush looks in hindsight such a decent president.

Avoiding capital gains tax within the law is one thing - using your position to enact a law to avoid your own tax liability is quite another; a clear conflict of interest and corruption, as is the charge on which he was convicted.

Try to avoid moral relativity - it is a senseless circular argument, and in this case, particularly invalid.

The forum has been informed time and time again about the support that Thaksin received over the law change that enabled him to sell to Temasek in the way he did. It breaks the forum rules to discuss some of the beneficiaries, but they can be found easily via googling the parties we can name. It's all morally wrong, of course, but who on this forum is brave enough to take on the beneficiaries who can't be discussed here, rather than conveniently and incorrectly laying all the greed at Thaksin's door?

It is not only morally wrong, it is LEGALLY wrong, despite who else may have benefited. and there was quite sufficient benefit to the Shinawatra clan for a charge of corruption against him to be warranted. HE was the PM and HIS party enacted the law. And in time, hopefully he will be convicted and jailed for his crimes.

You might consider my comment about moral relativity - "Little Johnny got some too !" just doesn't work.

And you might consider my comment about who actually benefited from the legal change that we're discussing. If you made the effort to do this, it might just sober up your ranting about wrongdoing.

[OzMick]

And you might consider my comment about who actually benefited from the legal change that we're discussing. If you made the effort to do this, it might just sober up your ranting about wrongdoing.

I couldn't give a rat's anus if JC, the Pope and the whole bloody heavenly host benefited, it was theft from the public purse, blatant corruption and deserves criminal prosecution.

[Siripon]

Khanit's committee on reconciliation concluded one of the root causes of the civil strife goes back to the controversial acquittal of Thaksin in his share concealment case by the Constitution court.

Let's hope Chalerm will ask to see this case reviewed again!

[wxyz]

Terrorism is the tactic of demanding the impossible, and demanding it at gunpoint.

Christopher Hitchens

[phiphidon]

And you might consider my comment about who actually benefited from the legal change that we're discussing. If you made the effort to do this, it might just sober up your ranting about wrongdoing.

I couldn't give a rat's anus if JC, the Pope and the whole bloody heavenly host benefited, it was theft from the public purse, blatant corruption and deserves criminal prosecution.

If you gave a "rat's anus" and bothered looking beyond your bias perhaps some of your opprobium would be toned down a tad - if you really do think that criminal prosecution would be applied across the board rather than at just one individual, well, all I can say is good luck with that................

[OzMick]

And you might consider my comment about who actually benefited from the legal change that we're discussing. If you made the effort to do this, it might just sober up your ranting about wrongdoing.

I couldn't give a rat's anus if JC, the Pope and the whole bloody heavenly host benefited, it was theft from the public purse, blatant corruption and deserves criminal prosecution.

If you gave a "rat's anus" and bothered looking beyond your bias perhaps some of your opprobium would be toned down a tad - if you really do think that criminal prosecution would be applied across the board rather than at just one individual, well, all I can say is good luck with that................

Give it up will you! Bias has nothing to do with recognising a thief who enacted the legislation and was the main beneficiary. If others benefitted and it can be proved they conspired or induced the act, well and good, get them too. If not, I DON'T CARE.

Remember "the buck stops here"? How about "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time"?

Why does a billionaire need to commit corruption and tax fraud? How many schools/hospitals could have been built for the people he pretends to care for, with that act of corruption alone? This man has had a free ride on the back of the Thai people all his life, but enough is never enough, he wants his snout back in the trough. <deleted>#k him and his whole venal clan and their hangers on.

[sparebox2]

Terrorism is the tactic of demanding the impossible, and demanding it at gunpoint.

Christopher Hitchens

Are you refering to the Coup master? If yes, let me inform you that the 2006 coup was a good coup, where no bullets was fired.

[Thai at Heart]

Aren't there 1000 anecdotes about sparing the rod and spoiling the child in other parts of the world. If you don't punish wrongdoing, people will continue to re-offend. I don't see why this deserves such an earth shattering headline. Thailand can't even get everyone to wear a motorcycle helmet, so what hope putting the fear of god of getting caught for white collar crime.

If you don't wear a helmet, you may die, if you nick enough money, people wai you.

[Crushdepth]

Granting anmesty to all those who have broken the law is a great idea. I'm sure that everyone has learned their lesson and will not reoffend, so there is no need to punish them.

[wxyz]

Terrorism is the tactic of demanding the impossible, and demanding it at gunpoint.

Christopher Hitchens

Are you refering to the Coup master? If yes, let me inform you that the 2006 coup was a good coup, where no bullets was fired.

actually i was thinking more about last springs demands(plus current demands) and violence and calling for the burning of Bangkok and the whole country.

[sparebox2]

Amnesty will lead to repetition.

So to stop Thailand from having repetition coup is not to give amnesty to coup leaders?

[473geo]

I take it 'Wei' has applied for re-issue of the passport he "Probably" held and has been refused...............

Otherwise the article lacks a certain credibility don't you think?

[lannarebirth]

Amnesty will lead to repetition.

So to stop Thailand from having repetition coup is not to give amnesty to coup leaders?

Of course, but prosecute everyone beforehand and since likewise. Send evryone of these f**kers to jail. Maybe then the next generation of <deleted>**ers might think twice befor plundering the national treasury.

[Siam Simon]

Amnesty will lead to repetition.

So to stop Thailand from having repetition coup is not to give amnesty to coup leaders?

Of course, but prosecute everyone beforehand and since likewise. Send evryone of these f**kers to jail. Maybe then the next generation of <deleted>**ers might think twice befor plundering the national treasury.

Well knock me down with a feather duster! We had to be on agreement over something eventually.