The Undocumented Dangers Of Thailand's Roads

[MaiChai]

I would say policing the roads has become more lax AND the volume of vehicles on the road has increased considerably. The driving speeds are faster and the driving style much more selfish and aggressive. I have been driving regularly all over Thailand for the last 15 years. There was times when the police did catch people for jumping red lights and speeding. Now I believe there are more profitable and easier ways for police to make money, so they don't bother doing traffic policing anymore.

There isn't any law enforcement of considerate and safe driving in Thailand so people do what they want. Also most Thais have never experienced anything else so for them its normal.

So who is brave enough and has the motivation to shake up the police force?

[roamer]

You have to accept that which you can not change....or leave, or not go there in the first place.

And you won't change it.

[cowslip]

You have to accept that which you can not change....or leave, or not go there in the first place.

And you won't change it.

i have to say that this is a particularly facile comment.

THe poster obviously doesn't understand the processes of "change" - it is NEVER one individual that brings about change - a general environment has to exist......and inevitably that WILL happen and change WILL occur.....how slowly is a question for debate but "plus ca change" is not a valid argument here.

The country's wealth is increasing rapidly, more vehicles are on the roads - and different ones too - the way people in Thailand get about is changing and the healthcare system and the national economy are all affected by road accidents - in America it has been pointed out that road death numbers if incurred in a war would immediately involve the US pulling out of that war. THe level of deaths in Thailand is Hgher than those of war.....this is clearly not sustainable and change will inevitably follow.

Edited January 5, 2012 by cowslip

[xthAi76s]

I don't know how the ladies came to the conclusion that statistics are hard to come by:

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

Many countries look dangerous compared with the UK, which is close to the best in the world at 4 deaths per 100,000 (America is three times worse). Thailand is in line with the global average at around 20 deaths per 100,000 of population.

Those that think Thailand is dangerous need to visit the truly bonkers countries. Having driven through it both ways on the hippy trail to India in the 70s, I was unsurprised to see that Iran's rate is nearly twice that of Thailand. Their macho culture causes them to drive at each other on mountain passes in an oft fatal game of chicken.

Nonetheless, although there are no stats about public transport deaths, I would expect that Thailand's long distance buses are many times more dangerous than their western equivalents (but probably no different from similar developing countries like the Philipines, India, Brazil etc). Also deaths per 100,000 population is a very imperfect measure - what is needed for a reliable measure of how unsafe travel is, would be a death per 100,000 kilos travelled statistic (which would be almost impossible to construct).

Maybe a worldwide study of public transport deaths and/or tourist transport deaths would be a good subject for someone's undergrad project.

I would like to see NCA make some advertising mileage of their apparently better standard of driving. I observe on my drives from Isaan to Bangkok that they are rarely in the 'violently swaying dangerously overtaking' mode, so often favoured by those over-painted VIP wallahs. Perhaps if Thais could be encouraged by the private sector operators to value safety there would be more focus on it. Pigs might fly; when I observed to my wife that I would probably only travel in NCA if I could, she dismissed it with a predictable 'paeng mahk'.

Any undergrad statistics 101 course would caution you against trusting in statistics held up by 3rd world countries, and I believe that's particularly true with respect to those countries with FACE to save.

It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that one would trust the stats. What checks are there to ensure that things are 1) being reported and that they 2) are being reported accurately? Statistics don't come from God; they are man-made. We should be more realistic and think more about it.

actually anyone with the slightest knowledge of stats will look at these stats and realise that they are the basis for some conclusions and ae worthwhile - they would also look at the source not the country.......to simply try and be clever by criticising stats will-nilli is just childish.

I have a 'slight' knowledge of stats. What is the source of the stats? How are they arrived at?

[roamer]

You have to accept that which you can not change....or leave, or not go there in the first place.

And you won't change it.

i have to say that this is a particularly facile comment.

THe poster obviously doesn't understand the processes of "change" - it is NEVER one individual that brings about change - a general environment has to exist......and inevitably that WILL happen and change WILL occur.....how slowly is a question for debate but "plus ca change" is not a valid argument here.

The country's wealth is increasing rapidly, more vehicles are on the roads - and different ones too - the way people in Thailand get about is changing and the healthcare system and the national economy are all affected by road accidents - in America it has been pointed out that road death numbers if incurred in a war would immediately involve the US pulling out of that war. THe level of deaths in Thailand is Hgher than those of war.....this is clearly not sustainable and change will inevitably follow.

I understand the process of change>

"

“Few will have the greatness to bend history itself, but each of us can work to change a small portion of events. It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.”

―

Robert F. Kennedy

If your taking about reducing the number of fatalities then of course its possible, stop people riding in the back of pick-ups and finally enforce the helmet law. That is as much as you can hope for. And even that small but vital step would require you to solve the problem of police corruption. And of course if you can solve the problem of police corruption there is little left that you cannot solve. For the problems that assault Thailand on a daily basis come from the very top of the tree and therein lies your problem, you can't get the monkeys to do all the work if the organ grinder is pocketing all the peanuts.

However as you pointed out yourself,and I also in the above quotation, it is never one individual that brings about the change and the environment also has to exist for change. You simply cannot cherry pick the things you would like to change about Thailand, because the environment does not exist for you to do that. Changing the driving culture in Thailand is way down the list of priorities and even if that were not so, the institutions that can promote and regulate change simply do not function in a way that allows that change to become reality.

The reality is that you can only change the driving culture in Thailand when you can enforce the laws. You can only enforce the laws when you start to eliminate corruption. There is absolutely nothing that is inevitable about that, indeed some might say that is the one thing you will never fix in Thailand. We've come full circle.

Edited January 5, 2012 by roamer

[xthAi76s]

<p>

<br />

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.<br />

<br />

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.<br />

<br />

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.<br />

<br />

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,<br />

<br />

<strong>4) educating the driving populace is also very important</strong>.  You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness.  No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h.  Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).<br />

<br />

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected.  And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far).  However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.  <br />

<br />

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police.  They had all kinds of tricks.  They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them.  Back then, it was a very impressive plan.  They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable.  Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves.  In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.<br />

<br />

Thai drivers are similar.  They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating.  But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability.  The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills.  The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.  <br />

<br />

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.<br />

</p>

<p> </p>

<p>your observations are of course pretty worthless they are merely the reinforcement of a personal perception.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If an objective test were possible I think you'd find that the percentage of crap drivers in Thailand would be about the same as anywhere else.....of course one can't define "crap" objectively and a test would be pretty difficult to arrange.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Any compilation of roads statistics will have a paragraph that explains the vagaries of compiling let alone comparing roads stats.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>but if you look at the roads rather than the drivers you will see trends emerge on a world-wide scale.....nothing to do with being Thai.</p>

<p>however for the sake of the average TV member it fits nicely into their condescending and racist views of Thai people to suggest that in some way they are innately possessed of an inability to driver that infers the the expat is innately superior......and that really is crap!</p>

<div id="myEventWatcherDiv" style="display:none;"> </div>

It's a little hard to read your post due to formatting issues, but I will try to respond briefly.

I disagree that my observations are 'pretty worthless'.

Perhaps you did not understand the point I was making in response to the other poster's post. Perhaps an English language idiom will help.

"All that glitters (high stakes driving skill) is not gold (translating into relatively safe or enjoyable or efficient roads)."

If you are suggesting here that people / drivers are not a very important part of the equation and/or that people / drivers either 1) do not differ among countries and/or 2) do differ but not in ways that contribute to accidents or accident statistics, I would like to hear more from you on your argument.

As for my opinions about Western driving ability, I am not of the opinion that I can correctly pick out the safer/better driver 100 percent of the time simply by using a person's ethnicity or country of origin. It is possible, however, to make a statement of observation (having observed a preponderance of evidence, in this particular case, against many Thais) without being racist.

Edited January 5, 2012 by ThailandMan

[wolf5370]

Where I live in Chiang Mai, I am on the corner just outside the gate to a fair sizes Moo Bahn. The Moo Bahn is on two sides of a major road with heavy traffic. There is a traffic police station on the corner opposite me (across the Moo Bahn gate, not main road). at least 3 times a week there is a pile up on the crossing. People go from one side of the MB to the other, across the main road, without looking or stopping. People do sudden lefts and rights into the MB without slowing or signalling. Many drive without lights at night. It's crazy, the police are there, but it makes no difference. On my diagon (opposite the police station across the main road) is an outdoor Thai bar. each night Thais are there drinking themselves to death - then they get back in their cars and drive off home or wherever - directly in front of the police. Every single night. I was woken at 2 am a week or so ago by a group of very drunk Thais meandering back and forth across the road (still quite busy even at that time) and shouting happily (and very loudly) to eachother. Then they piled into a car, drove it backwards by mistake into a sign - then forwards on the grass verge taking out the bar's dustbin - then away - 5 minutes later they cam back and stopped in the middle of the road, leaving the car woith all dorrs open and lights on sitting there in no man's land. After a while and a p!ss, they get back in and drive off again in the opposite direction swerving back and forth across the road. The cops just ignored them completely.

The MB owners have applied four times for crossing lights for the road due to the fact that its so bloody dangerous - many Thais will not cross it and prefer to drive off down the road and u-turn and come back instead of going straight across - not easy for pedestrians! They have been turned down each time - and people continue to be crippled and die trying to get back across the road. The officials obviously want a huge handout to protect the common people they claim to care about so much, as the MB owners are not willing to pay the backhander, poeple die - yet they spend billions on an ugly new government building that looks like some ultramodern new hotel, that no one seems to know what its purpose will be - they all know its real purpose was to pay off some building contractor or land owner (probably both) from the public purse in thanks for a massive personal bung. I commiserate with the parent of these kids, but Thailand is not in the caring business. I agree with the above, hit the travel websites/guides/embassies and make it public knowledge - then Thailand mught do something (probably little in reality) to whitewash the bad press.

[wolf5370]

<p>

<br />

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.<br />

<br />

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.<br />

<br />

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.<br />

<br />

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,<br />

<br />

<strong>4) educating the driving populace is also very important</strong>.  You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness.  No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h.  Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).<br />

<br />

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected.  And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far).  However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.  <br />

<br />

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police.  They had all kinds of tricks.  They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them.  Back then, it was a very impressive plan.  They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable.  Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves.  In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.<br />

<br />

Thai drivers are similar.  They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating.  But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability.  The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills.  The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.  <br />

<br />

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.<br />

</p>

<p> </p>

<p>your observations are of course pretty worthless they are merely the reinforcement of a personal perception.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If an objective test were possible I think you'd find that the percentage of crap drivers in Thailand would be about the same as anywhere else.....of course one can't define "crap" objectively and a test would be pretty difficult to arrange.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Any compilation of roads statistics will have a paragraph that explains the vagaries of compiling let alone comparing roads stats.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>but if you look at the roads rather than the drivers you will see trends emerge on a world-wide scale.....nothing to do with being Thai.</p>

<p>however for the sake of the average TV member it fits nicely into their condescending and racist views of Thai people to suggest that in some way they are innately possessed of an inability to driver that infers the the expat is innately superior......and that really is crap!</p>

<div id="myEventWatcherDiv" style="display:none;"> </div>

It's a little hard to read your post due to formatting issues, but I will try to respond briefly.

I disagree that my observations are 'pretty worthless'.

Perhaps you did not understand the point I was making in response to the other poster's post. Perhaps an English language idiom will help.

"All that glitters (high stakes driving skill) is not gold (translating into relatively safe or enjoyable or efficient roads)."

If you are suggesting here that people / drivers are not a very important part of the equation and/or that people / drivers either 1) do not differ among countries and/or 2) do differ but not in ways that contribute to accidents or accident statistics, I would like to hear more from you on your argument.

As for my opinions about Western driving ability, I am not of the opinion that I can correctly pick out the safer/better driver 100 percent of the time simply by using a person's ethnicity or country of origin. It is possible, however, to make a statement of observation (having observed a preponderance of evidence, in this particular case, against many Thais) without being racist.

erm, it's "all that glisters is not gold", just to be pedantic (Merchant of Venice - also Aesops fables)

[RubbaJohnny]

Very sad RIP.

May I make a few observations after 2 decades on Thai roads as driver passenger and DAYLIGHT ONLY cyclist.

1. Little will change in a country where foks believe bad luck is karma and reincarnation saferty first is a low proirity
   
2. poor condition of vehicles, roadd surfaces,signage,instruction
   
3. Many vehicles with poor or no lights
   
4. Common to see bikes and even trucks driving wrong way on dual carriage divied sections as short cut
   
5. Police enforcement inconsistent
   
6. Drunk driving and Speeding common
   
7. A culture of impunity (recall the rich boy who mowed down the bus queueu etc) Low paid bribeabale officialdom
   
8. Many US and European casualties compounded by driving on "wrong side"
   
9. Overloading as any one who drives on the provincial highways has seen,9 on a bike etc
   
10. Few seatbelts on buses and folks staning or unsecured in pick ups so when they roll heads do too
    
11. Perhaps the greatest single cause of serious injury non use of CRAH HELMETS
    
12. Motor cycle to inexperienced holidaymakers,a quick trip to KSR etc you will always see the ones who limped away
    

As anywhere common sense required and unlike nany states you need to take more responsibility here insurance,vehicle mainainence etc.Also recommend defensive no competitive techniques.Always expect the foolhardy overtaking on brow of hill,corners,inside via the escape lane etc.

I always try to be off the rd after dark but especially 6-7pm rural happy hour when Lhao Khao(cheap rice whiskey) fuelled idiots are racing home.A good time to pull over and have coffee .11pm to closing time is obviously a peek risk time

Happy motoring

[RubbaJohnny]

Excuse typos in the above but no edit button appearing today

[xthAi76s]

<p>

<br />

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.<br />

<br />

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.<br />

<br />

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.<br />

<br />

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,<br />

<br />

<strong>4) educating the driving populace is also very important</strong>.  You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness.  No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h.  Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).<br />

<br />

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected.  And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far).  However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.  <br />

<br />

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police.  They had all kinds of tricks.  They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them.  Back then, it was a very impressive plan.  They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable.  Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves.  In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.<br />

<br />

Thai drivers are similar.  They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating.  But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability.  The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills.  The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.  <br />

<br />

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.<br />

</p>

<p> </p>

<p>your observations are of course pretty worthless they are merely the reinforcement of a personal perception.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If an objective test were possible I think you'd find that the percentage of crap drivers in Thailand would be about the same as anywhere else.....of course one can't define "crap" objectively and a test would be pretty difficult to arrange.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Any compilation of roads statistics will have a paragraph that explains the vagaries of compiling let alone comparing roads stats.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>but if you look at the roads rather than the drivers you will see trends emerge on a world-wide scale.....nothing to do with being Thai.</p>

<p>however for the sake of the average TV member it fits nicely into their condescending and racist views of Thai people to suggest that in some way they are innately possessed of an inability to driver that infers the the expat is innately superior......and that really is crap!</p>

<div id="myEventWatcherDiv" style="display:none;"> </div>

It's a little hard to read your post due to formatting issues, but I will try to respond briefly.

I disagree that my observations are 'pretty worthless'.

Perhaps you did not understand the point I was making in response to the other poster's post. Perhaps an English language idiom will help.

"All that glitters (high stakes driving skill) is not gold (translating into relatively safe or enjoyable or efficient roads)."

If you are suggesting here that people / drivers are not a very important part of the equation and/or that people / drivers either 1) do not differ among countries and/or 2) do differ but not in ways that contribute to accidents or accident statistics, I would like to hear more from you on your argument.

As for my opinions about Western driving ability, I am not of the opinion that I can correctly pick out the safer/better driver 100 percent of the time simply by using a person's ethnicity or country of origin. It is possible, however, to make a statement of observation (having observed a preponderance of evidence, in this particular case, against many Thais) without being racist.

erm, it's "all that glisters is not gold", just to be pedantic (Merchant of Venice - also Aesops fables)

Thank you for the correction.

[cowslip]

As the finer points of English seem to go over Thailand man's head I'll leave it at that. The formatting thing is Thaivisa's problem.

[xthAi76s]

As the finer points of English seem to go over Thailand man's head I'll leave it at that. The formatting thing is Thaivisa's problem.

Or perhaps you are too tired to defend your earlier points. How do you know if English is even my first (or only language)?

I'd still LOVE to hear your replies to my now weeks old rebuttals to your thin arguments.

[metisdead]

A post with formatting issues has been removed.

[TheKeeNok]

Ive heard that the most dangerous stretch of road is the highway that links BKK and Pattaya>

[cheeryble]

Is it really necessary to put two feet of quotes to make a one

Iine comment?

[Oli23]

The government and police are responsible, they stop the motorcycle only to get pitty cash for the day. They don't give a dam_n about the danger brought by those crazy drivers, bus, van, pick up, taxi and more... the drivers don't care about the people who the drive (who pays).. When I ask the driver to drive more slowly, they fake to dont listen or many people don't tell anything, when injuries, dead, accident coming. it's too late. It's sad for sure, but action must be taken for sure, innocent people paying with them life

[cowslip]

Observations are of course pretty worthless if they are merely the reinforcement of a personal perception.

If an objective test were possible I think you'd find that the percentage of crap drivers in Thailand would be about the same as anywhere else.....of course one cannot define this objectively and a test would be pretty difficult to arrange.

Any compilation of roads statistics will have a paragraph that explains the vagaries of compiling let alone comparing roads stats.

But if you look at the roads rather than the drivers you will see trends emerge on a world-wide scale.....nothing to do with being Thai

However for the sake of the average TV member it fits nicely into their condescending and racist views of Thai people to suggest that in some way they are innately possessed of an inability to driver that infers the the expat is innately superior......and that really is crap

[xthAi76s]

Observations are of course pretty worthless if they are merely the reinforcement of a personal perception.

If an objective test were possible I think you'd find that the percentage of crap drivers in Thailand would be about the same as anywhere else.....of course one cannot define this objectively and a test would be pretty difficult to arrange.

Any compilation of roads statistics will have a paragraph that explains the vagaries of compiling let alone comparing roads stats.

But if you look at the roads rather than the drivers you will see trends emerge on a world-wide scale.....nothing to do with being Thai

However for the sake of the average TV member it fits nicely into their condescending and racist views of Thai people to suggest that in some way they are innately possessed of an inability to driver that infers the the expat is innately superior......and that really is crap

This sounds interesting. What are some of those trends, and how do the roads affect the situation?

[cowslip]

TM - post an opinion or an argument and I'll reply - you don't seem to have a grasp on that yet. I'm not getting involved in petty bickering with people who really don't have or can't formulate a coherent idea of their own.

[manarak]

I don't see helmets or safety belts as the response, because they don't save other people's lives - just the life of people who wear them.

They should only be compulsory for minors (under 18) not accompanied by a legal guardian.

Above 18, up to the driver/passenger. Som nom na.

Foreigners killing themselves on motorcycles... som nom na as well!

What they really need to do is:

- enforce driving rules, i.e. reckless speeding, sudden turns without signal, safety distance, phone use while driving, etc.

- enforce alc rules, something like 0.8 0/00, so they can have three standard drinks and go home

The problem will be for the police how to punish/make money from the culprits, who are often piss-poor. Any ideas?

Edited February 2, 2012 by manarak

[MaiChai]

It was raining in Saraburi today, and as usual, all the Thai traffic slowed down 'because its raining'. It crossed my mind how ironic this was considering other road habits 'some' Thais have. I say some because some do drive sensibly and responsibly. If they can slow down for the rain, why can't they slow down and drive safely to save their own lives when the conditions dictate?

Guess the driving habits come down to the Thai cultural trait of doing whatever pleases you. I am not saying this is wrong, its just inconsiderate and down right dangerous when behind a wheel for some who have no fear and want to race along at the fastest speed their car will do!

[sysardman]

Ive heard that the most dangerous stretch of road is the highway that links BKK and Pattaya>

Yes it's the road to Sin

[harrycallahan]

This particular accident is highlighted because they're from upper class families, life wasn't mean to be this way for them. Thailand is a risk for the same reason it is a pleasure.

[metisdead]

A profanity post has been removed:

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane.

You're welcome to repost, but leave the profanity out when doing so.

[cowslip]

I don't see helmets or safety belts as the response, because they don't save other people's lives - just the life of people who wear them.

They should only be compulsory for minors (under 18) not accompanied by a legal guardian.

Above 18, up to the driver/passenger. Som nom na.

Foreigners killing themselves on motorcycles... som nom na as well!

What they really need to do is:

- enforce driving rules, i.e. reckless speeding, sudden turns without signal, safety distance, phone use while driving, etc.

- enforce alc rules, something like 0.8 0/00, so they can have three standard drinks and go home

The problem will be for the police how to punish/make money from the culprits, who are often piss-poor. Any ideas?

you completely miss the point here.

If you are foolhardy enough to not wear the above items, your injuries and or death have both direct and indirect consequences on the rest of us.

Put simply we end up paying either through taxes, insurance premiums and loss of bread earners, or maintaining an injured person.

To suggest that the wearing or not of these items is "up to you" is to take a highly self-centred and myopic attitude to them.

Edited February 13, 2012 by cowslip

[manarak]

I don't see helmets or safety belts as the response, because they don't save other people's lives - just the life of people who wear them.

They should only be compulsory for minors (under 18) not accompanied by a legal guardian.

Above 18, up to the driver/passenger. Som nom na.

Foreigners killing themselves on motorcycles... som nom na as well!

What they really need to do is:

- enforce driving rules, i.e. reckless speeding, sudden turns without signal, safety distance, phone use while driving, etc.

- enforce alc rules, something like 0.8 0/00, so they can have three standard drinks and go home

The problem will be for the police how to punish/make money from the culprits, who are often piss-poor. Any ideas?

you completely miss the point here.

If you are foolhardy enough to not wear the above items, your injuries and or death have both direct and indirect consequences on the rest of us.

Put simply we end up paying either through taxes, insurance premiums and loss of bread earners, or maintaining an injured person.

To suggest that the wearing or not of these items is "up to you" is to take a highly self-centred and myopic attitude to them.

Interesting.

but it is simple really, no helmet or belt at impact = no insurance for self (same as driving without a permit), and I would really have thought that the helmets cause more people to stay alive despite debiitation. that need to be cared for. do statistics prove me wrong?

[cowslip]

I don't see helmets or safety belts as the response, because they don't save other people's lives - just the life of people who wear them.

They should only be compulsory for minors (under 18) not accompanied by a legal guardian.

Above 18, up to the driver/passenger. Som nom na.

Foreigners killing themselves on motorcycles... som nom na as well!

What they really need to do is:

- enforce driving rules, i.e. reckless speeding, sudden turns without signal, safety distance, phone use while driving, etc.

- enforce alc rules, something like 0.8 0/00, so they can have three standard drinks and go home

The problem will be for the police how to punish/make money from the culprits, who are often piss-poor. Any ideas?

you completely miss the point here.

If you are foolhardy enough to not wear the above items, your injuries and or death have both direct and indirect consequences on the rest of us.

Put simply we end up paying either through taxes, insurance premiums and loss of bread earners, or maintaining an injured person.

To suggest that the wearing or not of these items is "up to you" is to take a highly self-centred and myopic attitude to them.

Interesting.

but it is simple really, no helmet or belt at impact = no insurance for self (same as driving without a permit), and I would really have thought that the helmets cause more people to stay alive despite debiitation. that need to be cared for. do statistics prove me wrong?

not only are you wrong but it would also indicate you don't understand the purpose of wearing a helmet in the first place.

[cowslip]

It is interesting but sad that many of those who criticise Thai drivers/driving/roadcraft etc don't really seem to have a personal grasp of the rudiments of road safety themselves.

[wolf5370]

Observations are of course pretty worthless if they are merely the reinforcement of a personal perception.

If an objective test were possible I think you'd find that the percentage of crap drivers in Thailand would be about the same as anywhere else.....of course one cannot define this objectively and a test would be pretty difficult to arrange.

Any compilation of roads statistics will have a paragraph that explains the vagaries of compiling let alone comparing roads stats.

But if you look at the roads rather than the drivers you will see trends emerge on a world-wide scale.....nothing to do with being Thai

However for the sake of the average TV member it fits nicely into their condescending and racist views of Thai people to suggest that in some way they are innately possessed of an inability to driver that infers the the expat is innately superior......and that really is crap

While I understand where you are coming from, there is a line where criticism is justified due to contributing factors within a country and not just some steriotypical ravings against a race. In Thailand, for instance, you only have to go to the testing centre to see how easy it is for an untrained individual to get a license. Compare that to most western countries with mandatory training, testing and graded access to the road after (for example limited speeds, engine power, ability to carry pillions on bikes, limitation on road access (motorways/highways/etc) etc).

When it is the country that fails its people, as in Thailand, it must be OK to criticise that country and not be accused of racism.

Does that make us superior? Probably yes - but only insofar that most of us went through long training periods and series of tests and post license training too - so that would, on average, make us superior drivers with respect to driving, on someone that turned up on the day, spend 5 minutes in a car in a carpark, and walk out with a license.

My wife is an excellent driver - she has driven large vans, small lorries and her own car for more than a decade. She is Thai. However, she was trained and passed her tests in the UK. She drove in the UK for ten years before coming here. It is not about Thai people, its about Thai training and the untrained availability of access to the roads.

I rode a motorcycle since I was 16. I had a full UK bike as well as car license. I also did advanced training (police bike training courses). One thing you are taught, even at the base level (compulsory basic training (CBT) - required before even starting to learn to ride a bike on the road), is the "life saver" looking over your shoulder quickly before making any moves - this saves lives - and is well known worldwide (although with different names) - yet I can not remember ever seeing a biker here do it (Thai or foreigner) - they bearly even check their mirrors. Let alone driving without lights at night (to save the battery - &lt;deleted&gt;!) or helmet. Bike lights should be compulsory day and night, it makes bikes easier to see (even during the day) and then bike makers can simply hardwire them to the starter. Helmets are easy to check and easy to stop for - compulsory bike impounding would sort that out quickly.

Edited February 14, 2012 by wolf5370