Looking To Buy A Condo - Among The Better Ones

[triffid]

I want to buy a condo in the 3m baht range mainly as an investment. My requirements are rentability, return and not-too-difficult resale (if that is called for). There are a lot of new developments - as well as I suppose re-sales in an older one. If I want to get a good choice within a building (floor, view, lay-out, etc) I'd be better off buying early and off-plan. I'm presuming the obvious risks in doing this can be mitigated by ensuring the developer is reputed and of substance.

Would be grateful for specific suggestions and reasons; especially from those with some detailed or practical knowledge about their suggestions and the developers.

For the moment, I can put up for discussion among the older buildings

- Flora by the river opposite the american consulate

- the very tall white building roughly behind Duke's - same side of the river as Flora above

- Punna off Nimmanhemin & on Huay Kaew towards CMU

And among the many new developments

- The Scene (beside B2 Hotel) on Canal Road

- A number of others off Canal Road towards the area of new Convention Centre

Look forward to comments and specifics

[KRS1]

Id do the building behind dukes or the convention center.

The area behind Punna is known for concerts and loud music.

Canal road is also nice but farther away from convenience.Convenience always sells better in the future.

3m baht condo will be a hard resale. Thems house prices. May be better to get two units connected together, so you can split them for sale in the future.

[elektrified]

Invest your money in the stock market or some other more liquid type of investment. I know people in Chiang Mai that bought condominiums and they have sat vacant for periods of up to 16 months without a single inquiry before a renter comes along. Some have been trying to sell them (at a loss) for years. Terrible investment IMHO. There are too many already. It's a buyers market. People who talk up how great an investment a C.M. condo is, are in 9 out of 10 cases, a seller themselves looking for a bite.

Before I get flamed I should add that if you are buying for your own home or are in a position to invest and not rely on the investment to earn you steady income, then certainly nothing wrong with buying one.

Edited January 12, 2012 by elektrified

[hellodolly]

Have viewed the Flora by the river opposite the American consulate. Not sure if that is the name.

Thai wife wants no part of it says it is haunted. Have no idea where she got that idea but it is good enough to scare her and her Thai friends off.

Personally I liked it.

[uptheos]

Have viewed the Flora by the river opposite the American consulate. Not sure if that is the name.

Thai wife wants no part of it says it is haunted. Have no idea where she got that idea but it is good enough to scare her and her Thai friends off.

Personally I liked it.

Maybe she prefers a house.....in her name?

[triffid]

@ KRS1

- I take your point about Punna; though one wonders if the noisy venues will last into the future, and one could look for a condo on the other side of the buildings

- I like the building behind Duke's too; but though not new the prices there are not cheap - will make inquiries again.

- On resale, you imply that house and flat sales (and rentals) are catering to the same market when surely they are not. For example in rentals also, smallish flats ask as high a rent as a decent sized house.

@electrified

- Your comments are sobering. But would you say they apply equally to flats at the top end of the market?

- Actually I wouldn't be entirely reliant on the rental income, though I would be expecting it.

- I intend to carry on living in a (rented) house now; but in the future I want to have the option of maybe moving to the (smaller) flat. Hence my investing only in a high qaulity, well-build and well maintained flat.

Thanks for all comments though; more would be welcome too.

[jimmym40]

Invest your money in the stock market or some other more liquid type of investment. I know people in Chiang Mai that bought condominiums and they have sat vacant for periods of up to 16 months without a single inquiry before a renter comes along. Some have been trying to sell them (at a loss) for years. Terrible investment IMHO. There are too many already. It's a buyers market. People who talk up how great an investment a C.M. condo is, are in 9 out of 10 cases, a seller themselves looking for a bite.

Before I get flamed I should add that if you are buying for your own home or are in a position to invest and not rely on the investment to earn you steady income, then certainly nothing wrong with buying one.

I would tend to absolutely agree with above poster. I don't see any way that you could make any money investing in a condo unless to get it at a Steal (rock bottome price).

[KRS1]

@ KRS1

- I take your point about Punna; though one wonders if the noisy venues will last into the future, and one could look for a condo on the other side of the buildings

- I like the building behind Duke's too; but though not new the prices there are not cheap - will make inquiries again.

- On resale, you imply that house and flat sales (and rentals) are catering to the same market when surely they are not. For example in rentals also, smallish flats ask as high a rent as a decent sized house.

@electrified

- Your comments are sobering. But would you say they apply equally to flats at the top end of the market?

- Actually I wouldn't be entirely reliant on the rental income, though I would be expecting it.

- I intend to carry on living in a (rented) house now; but in the future I want to have the option of maybe moving to the (smaller) flat. Hence my investing only in a high qaulity, well-build and well maintained flat.

Thanks for all comments though; more would be welcome too.

I would think that it would still be noisy in the future, the area behind Punna is called Prasetland, which is a big empty concrete lot. Beer gardens and concerts are held there quite often. This area is also anchored by two very large nightclubs. One of which was selling alcohol on a night they weren't suppose to, indicating under the table agreements with CNX 5.0.

I was referring to the selling of the condo in the future, 3m is alot for a condo. One of that size would also carry a higher than average yearly maintenence fee as well, which could be a distinct negative for a thai buyer. I also think its going to be hard to find a farang buyer at that price range. As previously mentioned id look into buying two units next to each other and connecting them together. Your right on about the rental prices though, you'd have to move quite far from the city center to get house rentals at the same rate.

[Semper]

I want to buy a condo in the 3m baht range mainly as an investment. My requirements are rentability, return and not-too-difficult resale

Who wouldn't.

[julesdick]

Invest your money in the stock market or some other more liquid type of investment. I know people in Chiang Mai that bought condominiums and they have sat vacant for periods of up to 16 months without a single inquiry before a renter comes along. Some have been trying to sell them (at a loss) for years. Terrible investment IMHO. There are too many already. It's a buyers market. People who talk up how great an investment a C.M. condo is, are in 9 out of 10 cases, a seller themselves looking for a bite.

Before I get flamed I should add that if you are buying for your own home or are in a position to invest and not rely on the investment to earn you steady income, then certainly nothing wrong with buying one.

I would tend to absolutely agree with above poster. I don't see any way that you could make any money investing in a condo unless to get it at a Steal (rock bottome price).

If you do a search on here http://www.chiangmaiproperties.co.th/PropertySearch.aspx at the higher end of the condo prices, they all seem to be rented out..... if that info is in any way useful to you...

[elektrified]

3M is a lot?? In relation to what?? The english teacher that is pulling in 15K-20K per month? Or a retiree from overseas that has a nest egg of a few mill dollars?? Who do you think 3M baht condos are marketed too?

I would think that these "retirees from overseas that has a nest egg of a few mill dollars" would be living their retirement life on the Mediterranean or in some other beautiful part of Europe or even Northern California? No?

[triffid]

I was looking to buy in the Scene after a guy I know did. But upon talking with the developer himself I was put off. He could not give a definite answer as to the relation of the building to the mountain....saying it will "be over here". No view of the mountain in any of the documents or website. Also, their is only parking for about 50% of the units!! Plus, the entire ground floor is commercial use, and that will require even MORE parking. The staff showed me, how they will handle it, and that is by DOUBLE PARKING! This, will be a big mess if the building ever reaches full occupancy. I gave it a wide miss.

I also would dispute that 3m bht is a high price for a condo at the top end of the market. Also it looks to me that a condo of that price not too far from town achieves a much higher rent than a house of the same price.

The Scene is selling at around 45k a sq metre. The sales people tell me that the developer ('s family) owns/runs a construction company that's built more than one condo building in Chiangmai (including Moutainfront). I take the point about parking space being under pressure from the commercial units on the ground floor. On the other hand the right shops could be seen as a plus point too. Finally, I am puzzled that Vibe says there's not going to a view of the mountain when the website makes a big thing - in pictures and descriptions - of the view from the units.

I misnamed the two older and better buildings - Floral and Rimping. I like Floral; it was praised also in another thread earlier in 2011. Does anyone know anything about condos and rentals there?

[heybruce]

I'm curious why you think this will be a good investment. When I take a quick stab at the numbers they don't look too good.

A 3M baht condo might rent for 15k to 20k baht a month, which would give you 180k to 240k baht a year if you can keep it rented. This is 6% to 8% of the price of the condo, and there will be expenses that lower this return. If you can keep the condo rented most of the time (a big 'if') and you can keep expenses low you will have at best a moderate return on investment, and, as other posters have indicated, the risks are high. There is the possibility that condo prices in Chiang Mai will rise and you will make money when you sell, but there is also the possibility that the market will become overbuilt and prices will stagnate or fall. There are probably better ways to invest your money.

If you can find a condo in your price range that you want to live in, that's a different story.

[binjalin]

I have several condos here and i would never, ever buy at Punna. Very noisy when the concerts start and looks great when its all quiet but people cannot wait to sell when they actually live there! I would advise against buying in Nimman area because of this. The newer condos are over priced IMHO at 35k up a sq meter and the condo fees at 25 up are outrageous, of course the older condos have the opposite problem, there fees are too low at 10/12/15 and thats why there are so many shabby looking condos around! I get a return, net, of about 7% but do not forget to add in the other savings which are not so clear:

No atm fees

No exchange rate worries

Income in 'local' currency

These 'hidden' benefits should be added on top of the percent ROI you receive. Where else would you invest here to get those returns? Speak up please as i'd love to know?

BTW been hearing very bad things about SR condo so stay away

[KRS1]

Canal road is 5-10 mins away from Nimhamin Rd. Not exactly a journey if you know what I mean. And you say that convenience always sells better in the future, well, I doubt canal road will look the same in 5- 10 years. The city is growing, and the convention centre will soon be finished. I foresee any condos near the centre will be in demand. JMO

Who wants to wait 10 years ? I dont see why a convention center would increase demand. I think a Big C or something similar would create greater demand.

[KRS1]

3M is a lot?? In relation to what?? The english teacher that is pulling in 15K-20K per month? Or a retiree from overseas that has a nest egg of a few mill dollars?? Who do you think 3M baht condos are marketed too?

Higher maintenance fee is independent of the building. Some are as low as 12 baht per unit, others as high as 30. I don't mind paying higher fees if I can see the money being used to keep the building at a certain standard and if improvements are made.

Good point, but i think the number of retired millionaires probably averages less than 1% of the entire retiree population in Chiang Mai.

[heybruce]

I have several condos here and i would never, ever buy at Punna. Very noisy when the concerts start and looks great when its all quiet but people cannot wait to sell when they actually live there! I would advise against buying in Nimman area because of this. The newer condos are over priced IMHO at 35k up a sq meter and the condo fees at 25 up are outrageous, of course the older condos have the opposite problem, there fees are too low at 10/12/15 and thats why there are so many shabby looking condos around! I get a return, net, of about 7% but do not forget to add in the other savings which are not so clear:

No atm fees

No exchange rate worries

Income in 'local' currency

These 'hidden' benefits should be added on top of the percent ROI you receive. Where else would you invest here to get those returns? Speak up please as i'd love to know?

BTW been hearing very bad things about SR condo so stay away

If you are happy with a 7% ROI and that is your stable return over the long term, and you find the risks of investing in Thailand acceptable, then you're doing fine. Since I manage to avoid the foreign transaction ATM fees and do fine with a combination of local and home country income I don't consider the other savings you mention to be significant. I assume you have a Thai wife, a Thai partner, or a Thai lawyer to help you get around all the restrictions placed on foreignors doing business in Thailand; are you factoring these costs into your ROI? I understand Thai wives can be very expensive.

I don't know where you can get better than 7% ROI investing in Thailand, which is why I'm not investing in this country. In view of the political uncertainties, restrictive laws on foreign investors, and risks associated with a corrupt legal system, I consider 7% an inadequate return for the hassles and risks. I keep most of my net worth outside of Thailand.

BTW, since you advise against buying new or old condos, what do you suggest a potential condo investor should buy?

[el jefe]

3M is a lot?? In relation to what?? The english teacher that is pulling in 15K-20K per month? Or a retiree from overseas that has a nest egg of a few mill dollars?? Who do you think 3M baht condos are marketed too?

Higher maintenance fee is independent of the building. Some are as low as 12 baht per unit, others as high as 30. I don't mind paying higher fees if I can see the money being used to keep the building at a certain standard and if improvements are made.

Good point, but i think the number of retired millionaires probably averages less than 1% of the entire retiree population in Chiang Mai.

Based on the retirees I know, it's significantly higher than 1%

[triffid]

Taking into account the range of criticisms of Chiangmai condo developments, including the newest, eg that the ROI is inadequate, especially in view of Thailand country risk; the quality of virtually construction is not up to scratch; there are inevitable problems down the line with maintenance of the buildings, et al. the only conclusion would be to rent a condo. Which begs the question as to how or why there is a spate of such developments and sales.

To revert to a specific query, does anyone have hard info on The Floral building - that white tallest in Chiangmai one behind Dukes and Rimping east of the river? Although it's old - 15 years? - they claim its construction is uniquely good (vs any other building in Chiangmai.)

[el jefe]

Taking into account the range of criticisms of Chiangmai condo developments, including the newest, eg that the ROI is inadequate, especially in view of Thailand country risk; the quality of virtually construction is not up to scratch; there are inevitable problems down the line with maintenance of the buildings, et al. the only conclusion would be to rent a condo. Which begs the question as to how or why there is a spate of such developments and sales.

To revert to a specific query, does anyone have hard info on The Floral building - that white tallest in Chiangmai one behind Dukes and Rimping east of the river? Although it's old - 15 years? - they claim its construction is uniquely good (vs any other building in Chiangmai.)

Sorry, I have no info on the Floral Condo.

But to answer your other question -- "Which begs the question as to how or why there is a spate of such developments and sales." -- With all the new developments (I count over a dozen new condos scheduled to be completed this year), no one has tried to resell any of those yet. There are plenty of people who sold an apartment for exactly what they paid for it and claimed they made a profit because the baht appreciated against the Dollar/Pound/Euro. Well, they could have just put the money in the bank and made the same profit without worrying about finding a tenant and whether the proper maintenance is being done on the building.

Of course, some people have sold apartments and made a real profit. Was that luck or a good investment? It's Ok to be a fool, just not the last fool.

[chiang mai]

I live in Floral (not Flora) and the prices start at 4.2 million, if and when you can find one for sale, there's a waiting list currently. The building across the river from the American Consulate is known as Rimping condo and whether or not it is haunted I have no idea but judging from the condition of the lobby it probably should be! There are some nice units in Rimping but a buyer needs to be careful where he/she buys, problems exist with pigeons, noise and heat, some units appear way over priced also.

As far as Floral's proximity to the mosque is concerned: I live on the side of the building near the mosque and I am vaguely aware of the calls to prayers which I think takes place twice a day, not five times!

Edited January 24, 2012 by chiang mai

[triffid]

I live in Floral (not Flora) and the prices start at 4.2 million, if and when you can find one for sale, there's a waiting list currently. The building across the river from the American Consulate is known as Rimping condo and whether or not it is haunted I have no idea but judging from the condition of the lobby it probably should be! There are some nice units in Rimping but a buyer needs to be careful where he/she buys, problems exist with pigeons, noise and heat, some units appear way over priced also.

As far as Floral's proximity to the mosque is concerned: I live on the side of the building near the mosque and I am vaguely aware of the calls to prayers which I think takes place twice a day, not five times!

Thank you for entering this thread with 1st hand and specific Floral input. What would be the storey, floorspace, direction of view, condition, etc of the condo at the 4.9 starting price? Have you found that the price, eg of your own flat, moved up or down or stayed the same since you moved in - if you have any means of knowing that?

I like this building and have flexibility on the price and timing; and I hope you won't mind if I come to you out of the blue with a pm at some point in the future.

[chiang mai]

I live in Floral (not Flora) and the prices start at 4.2 million, if and when you can find one for sale, there's a waiting list currently. The building across the river from the American Consulate is known as Rimping condo and whether or not it is haunted I have no idea but judging from the condition of the lobby it probably should be! There are some nice units in Rimping but a buyer needs to be careful where he/she buys, problems exist with pigeons, noise and heat, some units appear way over priced also.

As far as Floral's proximity to the mosque is concerned: I live on the side of the building near the mosque and I am vaguely aware of the calls to prayers which I think takes place twice a day, not five times!

Thank you for entering this thread with 1st hand and specific Floral input. What would be the storey, floorspace, direction of view, condition, etc of the condo at the 4.9 starting price? Have you found that the price, eg of your own flat, moved up or down or stayed the same since you moved in - if you have any means of knowing that?

I like this building and have flexibility on the price and timing; and I hope you won't mind if I come to you out of the blue with a pm at some point in the future.

PM recieved and replied

[chiang mai]

I have heard that Floral is next to a Mosque, and so you get the prayer call blasted out five times a day. I lost a sale there due to this very reason.

Please pm me or call me on 0873425785 if you want to talk more or maybe do some business.

I suggest you lost your sale because, like most EA's, you didn't understand the property you were trying to sell, sounds like you didn't even go see it!

[mesquite]

There are problems with Floral condominium. One unit has been flooded with "toilet waste material" (yes, sh*t) from above more than once. There are many Japanese and Korean children that scream for hours on the balconies and that noise carries a long way into the other units. Complaining to management will result in them talking to the people which does very little to correct the problem. They did clean up the waste problem, but since it's happened more than once, the root cause apparently has not been addressed. There is too little automobile parking and if you drive a car and get in after 8 PM, expect to park on the street outside the condo. Motorcycle parking is fine.

The staff is very good and the management overall is OK. Like most Thais, though, they simply will not enforce their own rules. The grounds are beautiful.

The small units that go for 4.5 million or so are 100 sq meter, but probably 75 sq meter living area. Noise insulation between units is excellent, but noise insulation from outside is very poor. You can hear dogs barking half a kilometer away and, of course, the screaming children. The only effective way of silencing the children appears to be throwing them off the balcony, but to my knowledge no one has yet to try this.

Edited January 25, 2012 by mesquite

[chiang mai]

There are problems with Floral condominium. One unit has been flooded with "toilet waste material" (yes, sh*t) from above more than once. There are many Japanese and Korean children that scream for hours on the balconies and that noise carries a long way into the other units. Complaining to management will result in them talking to the people which does very little to correct the problem. They did clean up the waste problem, but since it's happened more than once, the root cause apparently has not been addressed. There is too little automobile parking and if you drive a car and get in after 8 PM, expect to park on the street outside the condo. Motorcycle parking is fine.

The staff is very good and the management overall is OK. Like most Thais, though, they simply will not enforce their own rules. The grounds are beautiful.

The small units that go for 4.5 million or so are 100 sq meter, but probably 75 sq meter living area. Noise insulation between units is excellent, but noise insulation from outside is very poor. You can hear dogs barking half a kilometer away and, of course, the screaming children. The only effective way of silencing the children appears to be throwing them off the balcony, but to my knowledge no one has yet to try this.

Just a couple of corrections:

There's ample undercover parking at Floral and I challenge you to go down to the lower level (that's the fourth lowest level) at any time of day or night on any day of any year and find it full - in nine years I've never heard or seen of anyone having to park on the street. Parking space allocation is strictly controlled and monitored, one per unit.

There must be around twenty or so mostly Japanese children aged three to seven in the buidling and most attend private schools - when school lets out they do play together in the lobby and other places for an hour or so and yes, it can be quite nosiy at times. But it is only an hour a day and they are just kids playing, I think that;s the full extent of that point covered fully!

As for toilet waste overflowing: my shower got blocked a couple of times, as did my sink, I believe that happens from time to time so yes, I can imagine that at least one of the 119 apartmenets in nineteen years has experienced a toilet waste overflow, I believe that sort of thing happens!

External noise: noise does travel hence it's possible to hear planes, dogs, morning hyms from Prince Royal and many other audible delights, difficult to stop that sort of thing anywhere.

[mesquite]

Re Floral, my post above is correct.

[chiang mai]

Re Floral, my post above is correct.

It's a misrepresentation of the truth, especially the parking issue, I can only assume you no longer live at Floral - that not being the case I'll happily go with you on any day at any time and count parking spaces.

[el jefe]

I have heard that Floral is next to a Mosque, and so you get the prayer call blasted out five times a day. I lost a sale there due to this very reason.

Please pm me or call me on 0873425785 if you want to talk more or maybe do some business.

I suggest you lost your sale because, like most EA's, you didn't understand the property you were trying to sell, sounds like you didn't even go see it!

That is pretty funny. He's trying to sell and apartment and he heard it's next to a mosque.

Adam1 lost a sale to me too. I tried to buy an apartment that he was trying to sell for a client. Every time I made an offer it took forever for him to get back to me but each time he did it was with an even higher asking price!

[adam1]

I live in Floral (not Flora) and the prices start at 4.2 million, if and when you can find one for sale, there's a waiting list currently. The building across the river from the American Consulate is known as Rimping condo and whether or not it is haunted I have no idea but judging from the condition of the lobby it probably should be! There are some nice units in Rimping but a buyer needs to be careful where he/she buys, problems exist with pigeons, noise and heat, some units appear way over priced also.

As far as Floral's proximity to the mosque is concerned: I live on the side of the building near the mosque and I am vaguely aware of the calls to prayers which I think takes place twice a day, not five times!

Well, if its' two times a day and not five, and you can hardly hear it, then I guess that's good news. The information I had was five times a day, but I've stopped going there and am more than happy to stand corrected.