How Much Red Wine Can Cause Alcoholism ?

[xylophone]

That depends entirely on you and your personality and tolerance for booze.

Some people can flatten a bottle of wine a day for 20 years, get up, go to work, function perfectly normally, and then decide not to have a bottle that night.

Others not. If its effecting your health, your ability to function, your relations with others or your ability to not have a drink, then you might consider to stop.

Agree with that, and from what the OP said, 3 to 4 glasses of red wine a night over 4 to 5 hours should not be a problem provided it doesn't affect health, ability to function, relationships etc as you have mentioned (as have many others).

Your mention of "personality and tolerance for booze" also has to play a part IMO, because it can be key in whether one handles alcohol well or not.

Since the mid-1970s I have drunk at least one bottle of red wine per night, just about every night, and still do. During that time I was perfectly able to function in my job as a director of a multinational company, and later on as a senior executive, starting and then running the investment division in a large bank, handling billions of dollars and tens of thousands of clients, not to mention many direct and indirect staff, and gaining many accolades along the way.

My doctor told me I have a high tolerance towards alcohol and although he often warned me against the amount I was imbibing, he said perhaps I was one of the lucky ones who just happened to be able to handle it.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

For example, for almost all of my life I have had to have a large cup of tea in the morning and with lunch, and can't seem to function without it and of course I enjoy it. It is a habit, it is not destructive, however it is something I like, so perhaps wine drinking in the OP's case could fall into the same category if there are no other side-effects?

[Neeranam]

.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

LIke what behaviours and events?

Did you know alcoholism is a disease?

[Thai at Heart]

That depends entirely on you and your personality and tolerance for booze.

Some people can flatten a bottle of wine a day for 20 years, get up, go to work, function perfectly normally, and then decide not to have a bottle that night.

Others not. If its effecting your health, your ability to function, your relations with others or your ability to not have a drink, then you might consider to stop.

Agree with that, and from what the OP said, 3 to 4 glasses of red wine a night over 4 to 5 hours should not be a problem provided it doesn't affect health, ability to function, relationships etc as you have mentioned (as have many others).

Your mention of "personality and tolerance for booze" also has to play a part IMO, because it can be key in whether one handles alcohol well or not.

Since the mid-1970s I have drunk at least one bottle of red wine per night, just about every night, and still do. During that time I was perfectly able to function in my job as a director of a multinational company, and later on as a senior executive, starting and then running the investment division in a large bank, handling billions of dollars and tens of thousands of clients, not to mention many direct and indirect staff, and gaining many accolades along the way.

My doctor told me I have a high tolerance towards alcohol and although he often warned me against the amount I was imbibing, he said perhaps I was one of the lucky ones who just happened to be able to handle it.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

For example, for almost all of my life I have had to have a large cup of tea in the morning and with lunch, and can't seem to function without it and of course I enjoy it. It is a habit, it is not destructive, however it is something I like, so perhaps wine drinking in the OP's case could fall into the same category if there are no other side-effects?

Its very much down to how ones personality acts towards it. Some people just get a bit happy and cheerful, others turn into complete idiots.

I have a couple of beers or a glass of wine most nights. Its interesting how it feels different in the UK versus Thailand. 40c means you have to drink something so, if it isn't water or coke, it may as well be beer.

How one relates to others when knew has had a few is to me the biggest barometer for an alcoholic. If people tell you to stop or cut down and you can't or won't, its not a good sign at all.

[Thai at Heart]

.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

LIke what behaviours and events?

Did you know alcoholism is a disease?

Having had 2 very close family members with it, I would say it is an addictive psychosis. It is not a disease such as eczema.....

Alcohol is a drug, cocaine is a drug. Some people can control it better than others. Taking cocaine is not a disease.

[Neeranam]

.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

LIke what behaviours and events?

Did you know alcoholism is a disease?

Having had 2 very close family members with it, I would say it is an addictive psychosis. It is not a disease such as eczema.....

Alcohol is a drug, cocaine is a drug. Some people can control it better than others. Taking cocaine is not a disease.

I'd prefer to listen to the medical experts.

[Thai at Heart]

.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

LIke what behaviours and events?

Did you know alcoholism is a disease?

Having had 2 very close family members with it, I would say it is an addictive psychosis. It is not a disease such as eczema.....

Alcohol is a drug, cocaine is a drug. Some people can control it better than others. Taking cocaine is not a disease.

I'd prefer to listen to the medical experts.

Well, the only cure is abstention. So, that hardly needs a medical procedure does it. Whether it is defined as a disease or not, doesn't change the problems it causes. Most of the problems caused by alcoholics is to to the people around them. People can happily remain alcoholics for many decades. By that measure, smoking is a disease. Addiction is not a disease, it is a psychological state, cause by chemicals.

[xylophone]

.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

LIke what behaviours and events?

Did you know alcoholism is a disease?

Now bear in mind I was relating to the OP's post, and the behaviours/events I was referring to relate to alcohol cravings, change in personality, change in relationships with others and so on, and others mentioned this on the thread.

As regards your question about "alcoholism is a disease", well that is debatable, and has been for many years now and I would like to quote the following: –

1). One of the better definitions of alcoholism:- "Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends, etc."

2). The debate over whether alcoholism is a disease or simply a serious behavioral problem has continued for over 200 years and doesn't appear likely to end anytime soon.

The disease theory of alcoholism is just that... an unproven theory. Written and edited by:

Prof. David J. Hanson, Ph.D, State University of New York.

If one enjoys a few glasses of wine and does not exhibit a "change in behaviour/similar" apart from feeling a little mellow, then no real need to worry I wouldn't have thought.

Someone on this thread suggested that drinking 3 to 4 glasses of red wine a night is equivalent to a bottle, well it really does depend on the size of the glasses, as there are many wine glasses around which hold between 100 and 150 ml, so it is all relative.

Don't think that I am defending alcoholism because I am not, and I have known some very nice people who after a few drinks become absolutely uncontrollable and change to a different personality altogether, and others who are totally dependent upon it and really cannot get by for an hour without a drink, let alone a day and it has ruined their lives, and those of others.

[kurnell]

I drank 9 bottles of rouge with a colleague one afternoon, though we did soften it somewhat with a cheese platter

[Thai at Heart]

.

In summary I think there are a lot of "behaviours/events" which can point towards one becoming an alcoholic, however I believe it is not very difficult to differentiate between what I would like to do as a matter of taste and habit, and what would be considered destructive.

LIke what behaviours and events?

Did you know alcoholism is a disease?

Now bear in mind I was relating to the OP's post, and the behaviours/events I was referring to relate to alcohol cravings, change in personality, change in relationships with others and so on, and others mentioned this on the thread.

As regards your question about "alcoholism is a disease", well that is debatable, and has been for many years now and I would like to quote the following: –

1). One of the better definitions of alcoholism:- "Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends, etc."

2). The debate over whether alcoholism is a disease or simply a serious behavioral problem has continued for over 200 years and doesn't appear likely to end anytime soon.

The disease theory of alcoholism is just that... an unproven theory. Written and edited by:

Prof. David J. Hanson, Ph.D, State University of New York.

If one enjoys a few glasses of wine and does not exhibit a "change in behaviour/similar" apart from feeling a little mellow, then no real need to worry I wouldn't have thought.

Someone on this thread suggested that drinking 3 to 4 glasses of red wine a night is equivalent to a bottle, well it really does depend on the size of the glasses, as there are many wine glasses around which hold between 100 and 150 ml, so it is all relative.

Don't think that I am defending alcoholism because I am not, and I have known some very nice people who after a few drinks become absolutely uncontrollable and change to a different personality altogether, and others who are totally dependent upon it and really cannot get by for an hour without a drink, let alone a day and it has ruined their lives, and those of others.

Having lived with someone very close to me who was a chronic alcoholic, I have seen up front and very personally what it will do to people. It is a massive psychological addiction that can happen for many many reasons. But to call it an illness misses the point about the physical and psychological addiction.

Call it what you like, a fault, a failing, a disease an addiction (and i go with addiction), it is an incredibly destructive habit if you cannot handle it. Not everyone is disposed to alcoholism, and there are some people who can have only one glass of something, and they can turn into mean, nasty, bullies of the highest order. So the stereotyical idea of an alchoholic being someone who flattens a bottle of whiskey a day isn't true in my opinion. The partner, friend or parent who's character changes after only a couple equally has a problem as much as the bloke beating his missus after a skin full. Being aware of what you become agter a few is a very very important trait to avoid the pitfalls of alcohol.

[Neeranam]

As regards your question about "alcoholism is a disease", well that is debatable, and has been for many years now and I would like to quote the following: –

1). One of the better definitions of alcoholism:- "Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends, etc."

2). The debate over whether alcoholism is a disease or simply a serious behavioral problem has continued for over 200 years and doesn't appear likely to end anytime soon.

The disease theory of alcoholism is just that... an unproven theory. Written and edited by:

Prof. David J. Hanson, Ph.D, State University of New York.

1) SOME loss of control? The alcoholic has NO control whatsoever.

2) Not true, alcoholism has not been thought of as a diseas for nearly that long.

This guy isn't even a medical doctor!

I'm sure there are some real doctors in the following organizations who say alcoholism is a disease. I'll listen to them thanks.

The American Medical Association, The World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American College of Physicians , Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine

[Neeranam]

Managing Alcoholism as a Disease
By Thomas R. Hobbs, Ph.D., M.D.

Thomas R. Hobbs, Ph.D., M.D., is medical director of the Physicians’ Health Programs (PHP). The PHP, a program of The Educational and Scientific Trust of the Pennsylvania Medical Society, is a confidential advocacy service for physicians suffering from impairing conditions.



Published February 1998

The debate on whether alcoholism is a disease or a personal conduct problem has continued for over 200 years. In the United States, Benjamin Rush, MD, has been credited with first identifying alcoholism as a "disease" in 1784. He asserted that alcohol was the causal agent, loss of control over drinking behavior being the characteristic symptom, and total abstinence the only effective cure. His belief in this concept was so strong that he spearheaded a public education campaign in the United States to reduce public drunkenness.
The 1800s gave rise to the temperance movement in the United States. Alcohol was perceived as evil, the root cause of America’s problems. Accepting the disease concept of alcoholism, people believed that liquor could enslave a person against his or her will. Temperance proponents propagated the view that drinking was so dangerous that people should not even sample liquor or else they would likely embark on the path toward alcoholism. This ideology maintained that alcohol is inevitably dangerous and inexorably addictive for everyone. Today, we know that strong genetic influences exist, but not everyone becomes addicted to alcohol.

The temperance movement picked up steam in the late 1800s and evolved into a movement advocating the prohibition of alcohol nationally. Banning alcohol would preserve the family and eliminate sloth and moral dissolution in the United States, according to supporters. Backed by strong political forces, legislation was passed and prohibition went into effect in 1920. Paradoxically, the era of prohibition also marked the death of Victorian standards. According to A. Sinclair in his book, Prohibition: The Era of Excess, a code of liberated personal behavior grew and with it the idea that drinking should accompany a full life. Drunkenness represented personal freedom. Due to public outcry, prohibition was repealed in 1933.

Soon after prohibition ended, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) was born. Formed in 1935 by stockbroker Bill Wilson and a physician, Robert Smith, AA supported the proposition that an alcoholic is unable to control his or her drinking and recovery is possible only with total abstinence and peer support. The chief innovation in the AA philosophy was that it proposed a biological explanation for alcoholism. Alcoholics constituted a special group who are unable to control their drinking from birth. Initially, AA described this as "an allergy to alcohol."

Although AA was instrumental in again emphasizing the "disease concept" of alcoholism, the defining work was done by Elvin Jellinek, M.D., of the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies. In his book, The Disease Concept of Alcoholism, published in 1960, Jellinek described alcoholics as individuals with tolerance, withdrawal symptoms, and either "loss of control" or "inability to abstain" from alcohol. He asserted that these individuals could not drink in moderation, and, with continued drinking, the disease was progressive and life-threatening. Jellinek also recognized that some features of the disease (e.g., inability to abstain and loss of control) were shaped by cultural factors.

During the past 35 years, numerous studies by behavioral and social scientists have supported Jellinek’s contentions about alcoholism as a disease. The American Medical Association endorsed the concept in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an "alcohol dependence syndrome" which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism:"Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."

Despite the numerous studies validating the disease model of alcoholism, controversy still exists. In his 1989 book, Diseasing of America, social psychologist Stanton Peele, Ph.D., argues that AA and for-profit alcohol treatment centers promote the "myth" of alcoholism as a lifelong disease. He contends that the disease concept "excuses alcoholics for their past, present, and future irresponsibility" and points out that most people can overcome addiction on their own. He concludes that the only effective response to alcoholism and other addictions is "to recreate living communities that nurture the human capacity to lead constructive lives."

Surprisingly, Dr. Peele’s view that alcoholism is a personal conduct problem, rather than a disease, seems to be more prevalent among medical practitioners than among the public. A recent Gallop poll found that almost90 percent of Americans believe that alcoholism is a disease. In contrast, physicians’ views of alcoholism were reviewed at an August 1997 conference held by the International Doctors of Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA). A survey of physicians reported at that conference found that 80 percent of responding doctors perceived alcoholism as simply bad behavior.

Dr. Raoul Walsh in an article published in the November 1995 issue of Lancet supports the contention that physicians have negative views about alcoholics. He cites empirical data showing physicians continue to have stereotypical attitudes about alcoholics and that non-psychiatrists tend to view alcohol problems as principally the concern of psychiatrists. He also contends that many doctors have negative attitudes towards patients with alcohol problems because the bulk of their clinical exposure is with late-stage alcohol dependence.

Based on my experiences working in the addiction field for the past 10 years, I believe many, if not most, health professionals still view alcohol addiction as a willpower or conduct problem and are resistant to look at it as a disease. Part of the problem is that medical schools provide little time to study alcoholism or addiction and post-graduate training usually deals only with the end result of addiction or alcohol/drug-related diseases. Several studies conducted in the late 1980s give evidence that medical students and practitioners have inadequate knowledge about alcohol and alcohol problems. Also, recent studies published in the Journal of Studies on Alcoholism indicate that physicians perform poorly in the detection, prevention and treatment of alcohol abuse.

The single most important step to overcoming these obstacles is education. Education must begin at the undergraduate level and continue throughout the training of most if not all specialties. This is especially true for those in primary care where most problems of alcoholism will first be seen. In recent years, promotion of alcohol education programs in medical schools and at the post graduate level has improved. In Pennsylvania, for example, several medical schools now offer at least one curriculum block on substance abuse. Medical specialty organizations, such as the American Society of Addiction Medicine, are focusing on increasing addiction training programs for residents, practicing physicians and students.

Also, an increasing number of hospitals have an addiction medicine specialist on staff who is available for student and resident teaching, as well as being available for in-house consultations.

The American Medical Association estimates that 25-40 percent of patients occupying general hospital beds are there for treatment of ailments that result from alcoholism. In the United States, the economic costs of alcohol abuse exceed $115 billion a year. Physicians in general practice, hospitals and specialty medicine have considerable potential to reduce the large burden of illness associated with alcohol abuse. For example, several randomized, controlled trials conducted in recent years demonstrate that brief interventions by physicians can significantly reduce the proportion of patients drinking at hazardous levels. But first, we as physicians must adjust our attitudes.

Alcoholism should not be judged as a problem of willpower, misconduct, or any other unscientific diagnosis. The problem must be accepted for what it is—a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated. In the past 10 years, the medical profession’s and the public’s acceptance of smoking as an addictive disease has resulted in reducing nicotine use in the United States. I feel that similar strides can be made with alcohol abuse. We must begin, as we did with nicotine, by educating and convincing our own colleagues that alcoholism is a disease. We must also emphasize that physicians have played a significant role in reducing the mortality and morbidity from nicotine use through patient education. Through strong physician intervention, I believe that we can achieve similar results with alcohol abuse.

[xylophone]

There is a huge amount of information on that subject, and even in the information you publish, it is clear that there is some "argument" over whether alcoholism is really a disease. It seems that the advocates need somewhere to place this affliction and placing it as a disease seems to fit some of the criteria, but not all.

For every article like yours above there is another one like this: –

"Some physicians, scientists and others have rejected the disease theory of alcoholism on logical, empirical and other grounds.

Some critics of the disease model argue alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual; the disease concept gives the substance abuser an excuse. A disease cannot be cured by force of will; therefore, adding the medical label transfers the responsibility from the abuser to caregivers. Inevitably the abusers become unwilling victims, and just as inevitably they take on that role. They argue that the disease theory of alcoholism exists only to benefit the professionals' and governmental agencies responsible for providing recovery services, and the disease model has not offered a solution for those attempting to stop abusive alcohol and drug use.^[41]

These critics hold that by removing some of the stigma and personal responsibility the disease concept actually increases alcoholism and drug abuse and thus the need for treatment.^[41] This is somewhat supported by a study which found that a greater belief in the disease theory of alcoholism and higher commitment to total abstinence to be factors correlated with increased likelihood that an alcoholic would have a full-blown relapse (substantial continued use) following an initial lapse (single use).^[42] However, the authors noted that "the direction of causality cannot be determined from these data. It is possible that belief in alcoholism as a loss-of-control disease predisposes clients to relapse, or that repeated relapses reinforce clients' beliefs in the disease model."

A national study of doctors in the United States reported in The Road to Recovery asked them what proportion of alcoholism is a disease and what proportion is a personal weakness. The average proportion thought to be personal weakness was 31 percent. Significantly, only 12 percent of doctors considered alcoholism to be 100 percent a disease.

Another study found that only 25 percent of physicians believed that alcoholism is a disease. The majority believed alcoholism to be a social or psychological problem instead of a disease. (S.I. Mignon. Physicians' Perceptions of Alcoholics: The Disease Concept Reconsidered. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 1996, v. 14, no. 4, pp. 33–45)

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Dr. Thomas R. Hobbs says that "Based on my experiences working in the addiction field for the past 10 years, I believe many, if not most, health care professionals still view alcohol addiction as a willpower or conduct problem and are resistant to look at it as a disease." (T.R. Hobbs. Managing Alcoholism as a Disease. Physician's News Digest, 1998.)

Alcoholics-Anonymous says that "Some professionals will tell you that alcoholism is a disease while others contend that it is a choice" and "some doctors will tell you that it is in fact a disease." (Alcoholics-Anonymous. What Is Alcoholism? www.alcoholics-anonymous.com/what-is-alcoholism.htm)^[43]

Dr. Lynn Appleton says that "Despite all public pronouncements about alcoholism as a disease, medical practice rejects treating it as such. Not only does alcoholism not follow the model of a 'disease,' it is not amenable to standard medical treatment." She says that "Medical doctors' rejection of the disease theory of alcoholism has a strong basis in the biomedical model underpinning most of their training" and that "medical research on alcoholism does not support the disease model." (Lynn M. Appleton. Rethinking medicalization. Alcoholism and anomalies. Chapter in editor Joel Best's Images of Issues. Typifying Contemporary Social Problems. NY: Aldine De Gruyter, 1995, page 65 and page 69. 2nd edition".

Now if the medical profession cannot fully agree on exactly what alcoholism is, I doubt that we are going to solve it on this forum, and anyway as I stated earlier, my comment was related to the original post which was around drinking 3 to 4 glasses of red wine an evening and wondering if it could cause alcohol dependency. So let's keep some perspective here.

The interesting thing about alcoholism of course is that it can be "cured" by abstention and without any medical treatment whatsoever.

[big carl]

There is a huge amount of information on that subject, and even in the information you publish, it is clear that there is some "argument" over whether alcoholism is really a disease. It seems that the advocates need somewhere to place this affliction and placing it as a disease seems to fit some of the criteria, but not all.

For every article like yours above there is another one like this: –

"Some physicians, scientists and others have rejected the disease theory of alcoholism on logical, empirical and other grounds.

Some critics of the disease model argue alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual; the disease concept gives the substance abuser an excuse. A disease cannot be cured by force of will; therefore, adding the medical label transfers the responsibility from the abuser to caregivers. Inevitably the abusers become unwilling victims, and just as inevitably they take on that role. They argue that the disease theory of alcoholism exists only to benefit the professionals' and governmental agencies responsible for providing recovery services, and the disease model has not offered a solution for those attempting to stop abusive alcohol and drug use.^[41]

These critics hold that by removing some of the stigma and personal responsibility the disease concept actually increases alcoholism and drug abuse and thus the need for treatment.^[41] This is somewhat supported by a study which found that a greater belief in the disease theory of alcoholism and higher commitment to total abstinence to be factors correlated with increased likelihood that an alcoholic would have a full-blown relapse (substantial continued use) following an initial lapse (single use).^[42] However, the authors noted that "the direction of causality cannot be determined from these data. It is possible that belief in alcoholism as a loss-of-control disease predisposes clients to relapse, or that repeated relapses reinforce clients' beliefs in the disease model."

A national study of doctors in the United States reported in The Road to Recovery asked them what proportion of alcoholism is a disease and what proportion is a personal weakness. The average proportion thought to be personal weakness was 31 percent. Significantly, only 12 percent of doctors considered alcoholism to be 100 percent a disease.

Another study found that only 25 percent of physicians believed that alcoholism is a disease. The majority believed alcoholism to be a social or psychological problem instead of a disease. (S.I. Mignon. Physicians' Perceptions of Alcoholics: The Disease Concept Reconsidered. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 1996, v. 14, no. 4, pp. 33–45)

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Dr. Thomas R. Hobbs says that "Based on my experiences working in the addiction field for the past 10 years, I believe many, if not most, health care professionals still view alcohol addiction as a willpower or conduct problem and are resistant to look at it as a disease." (T.R. Hobbs. Managing Alcoholism as a Disease. Physician's News Digest, 1998.)

Alcoholics-Anonymous says that "Some professionals will tell you that alcoholism is a disease while others contend that it is a choice" and "some doctors will tell you that it is in fact a disease." (Alcoholics-Anonymous. What Is Alcoholism? www.alcoholics-anonymous.com/what-is-alcoholism.htm)^[43]

Dr. Lynn Appleton says that "Despite all public pronouncements about alcoholism as a disease, medical practice rejects treating it as such. Not only does alcoholism not follow the model of a 'disease,' it is not amenable to standard medical treatment." She says that "Medical doctors' rejection of the disease theory of alcoholism has a strong basis in the biomedical model underpinning most of their training" and that "medical research on alcoholism does not support the disease model." (Lynn M. Appleton. Rethinking medicalization. Alcoholism and anomalies. Chapter in editor Joel Best's Images of Issues. Typifying Contemporary Social Problems. NY: Aldine De Gruyter, 1995, page 65 and page 69. 2nd edition".

Now if the medical profession cannot fully agree on exactly what alcoholism is, I doubt that we are going to solve it on this forum, and anyway as I stated earlier, my comment was related to the original post which was around drinking 3 to 4 glasses of red wine an evening and wondering if it could cause alcohol dependency. So let's keep some perspective here.

The interesting thing about alcoholism of course is that it can be "cured" by abstention and without any medical treatment whatsoever.

There studies are useless unless they can draw a definitive line between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic.

With out it they are just opinions and opinions are like <deleted> every one has one.

[Neeranam]

The interesting thing about alcoholism of course is that it can be "cured" by abstention and without any medical treatment whatsoever

.Not true, alcoholism cannot be cured.

Not all diseases are physical.

I find the quotes you quoted very hard to believe.

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Surely not!

[Thai at Heart]

The interesting thing about alcoholism of course is that it can be "cured" by abstention and without any medical treatment whatsoever

.Not true, alcoholism cannot be cured.

Not all diseases are physical.

I find the quotes you quoted very hard to believe.

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Surely not!

I put it in "apostrophes" like that because it cannot be "cured" per so. Not all diseases are physical of course, but without imbibing alchohol, its amazing how the disease of alchoholism disappears instantly. So it is not a disease in the pure form of defnintion but a behaviour, habit, addiction, and many other things. This is like claiming people who exercise to excess having a disease. Or people who get addicted to the adrenalin rush of base jumping as having a disease. Its a nonsensical defnintion in my opinion. When an alcoholic knows that drinking is dangerous or damaging to himself AND THOSE AROUND HIM, this is alcoholism.

Well then we get down to really splitting hairs about the definition, which isn't conclusive either way among the medical fraternity. I wouldn't be surprised that half the reason this issue arises is about what type of treatments or counselling will be funded by American insurance companies. And yes alcoholism can be solved as opposed to cured in many different ways processes, all of which result in stopping drinking. Calling it a disease is a neat way of dicounting the reality that it is among many things an addictive behaviour and in order to stop drinking it will to some degree need some will power to break the psycological habit.

It is a physical addiction and a psycological addiction to my mind much like smoking. In order to stop one must eventually realise that to consume alcohol is damaging to oneself and thus one should not consume. How one goes about embarking on treatment whether you call it an addiction or a disease is of no issue to me. The realisation, the self evaluation and decision to change one's lifestyle doesn't change whatever you call it. I do believe that different people have a different propensity to become addicted.

[Neeranam]

The interesting thing about alcoholism of course is that it can be "cured" by abstention and without any medical treatment whatsoever

.Not true, alcoholism cannot be cured.

Not all diseases are physical.

I find the quotes you quoted very hard to believe.

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Surely not!

I put it in "apostrophes" like that because it cannot be "cured" per so. Not all diseases are physical of course, but without imbibing alchohol, its amazing how the disease of alchoholism disappears instantly. So it is not a disease in the pure form of defnintion but a behaviour, habit, addiction, and many other things. This is like claiming people who exercise to excess having a disease. Or people who get addicted to the adrenalin rush of base jumping as having a disease. Its a nonsensical defnintion in my opinion. When an alcoholic knows that drinking is dangerous or damaging to himself AND THOSE AROUND HIM, this is alcoholism.

Well then we get down to really splitting hairs about the definition, which isn't conclusive either way among the medical fraternity. I wouldn't be surprised that half the reason this issue arises is about what type of treatments or counselling will be funded by American insurance companies. And yes alcoholism can be solved as opposed to cured in many different ways processes, all of which result in stopping drinking. Calling it a disease is a neat way of dicounting the reality that it is among many things an addictive behaviour and in order to stop drinking it will to some degree need some will power to break the psycological habit.

It is a physical addiction and a psycological addiction to my mind much like smoking. In order to stop one must eventually realise that to consume alcohol is damaging to oneself and thus one should not consume. How one goes about embarking on treatment whether you call it an addiction or a disease is of no issue to me. The realisation, the self evaluation and decision to change one's lifestyle doesn't change whatever you call it. I do believe that different people have a different propensity to become addicted.

Interesting read and you know a bit about addiction.

One thing that I don't think you realize is that many alcoholics say that alcohol is the solution to their problems or dis-ease.

The physical addiction is only one pat of the disease. When alcohol is given up the alcoholic is left with the "mental obsession" and "spiritual malady" as AA describes it.

I'd say that when I gave up drinking for 5 months these two were worse than the problems I had because of alcohol. The alcoholic is at a place that only an alcoholic can understand - life is hell when drinking and hell when not drinking. The recovery from this disease only STARTS when the alcohol is stopped.

[jacky54]

One of the better definitions of alcoholism:-

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."

Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.

Utter rubbish, alcoholism is no more an illness than heroin or cocaine addiction, it's an addiction not an illness or disorder. This clap trap ties to take the responsibility away from the abuser of this particular drug. If you are an alcoholic you are an addict, not a victim.

[Thai at Heart]

The interesting thing about alcoholism of course is that it can be "cured" by abstention and without any medical treatment whatsoever

.Not true, alcoholism cannot be cured.

Not all diseases are physical.

I find the quotes you quoted very hard to believe.

A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease. (Barrier to Treatment. Alcoholmd - Information About Alcohol and Medicine)

Surely not!

I put it in "apostrophes" like that because it cannot be "cured" per so. Not all diseases are physical of course, but without imbibing alchohol, its amazing how the disease of alchoholism disappears instantly. So it is not a disease in the pure form of defnintion but a behaviour, habit, addiction, and many other things. This is like claiming people who exercise to excess having a disease. Or people who get addicted to the adrenalin rush of base jumping as having a disease. Its a nonsensical defnintion in my opinion. When an alcoholic knows that drinking is dangerous or damaging to himself AND THOSE AROUND HIM, this is alcoholism.

Well then we get down to really splitting hairs about the definition, which isn't conclusive either way among the medical fraternity. I wouldn't be surprised that half the reason this issue arises is about what type of treatments or counselling will be funded by American insurance companies. And yes alcoholism can be solved as opposed to cured in many different ways processes, all of which result in stopping drinking. Calling it a disease is a neat way of dicounting the reality that it is among many things an addictive behaviour and in order to stop drinking it will to some degree need some will power to break the psycological habit.

It is a physical addiction and a psycological addiction to my mind much like smoking. In order to stop one must eventually realise that to consume alcohol is damaging to oneself and thus one should not consume. How one goes about embarking on treatment whether you call it an addiction or a disease is of no issue to me. The realisation, the self evaluation and decision to change one's lifestyle doesn't change whatever you call it. I do believe that different people have a different propensity to become addicted.

Interesting read and you know a bit about addiction.

One thing that I don't think you realize is that many alcoholics say that alcohol is the solution to their problems or dis-ease.

The physical addiction is only one pat of the disease. When alcohol is given up the alcoholic is left with the "mental obsession" and "spiritual malady" as AA describes it.

I'd say that when I gave up drinking for 5 months these two were worse than the problems I had because of alcohol. The alcoholic is at a place that only an alcoholic can understand - life is hell when drinking and hell when not drinking. The recovery from this disease only STARTS when the alcohol is stopped.

Yes. I have read about this "song" that plays in the mind of an alcoholic.

I amazingly gave up cigarettes by what's his names book and a change of scenery. As easy as pie. Tried it several times in Thailand, but I found it extremely easy in the UK.

Quite why I am nor sure. Two people very close to me were alcoholics and they were absolutely determined to never try to stop, despite assistance and councilling of the highest order.

I believe it is largely impossible to cease being an alcoholic if one does not want and succeed in resisting. That is the base most simple essence of it.

It is the essence of removing addiction and no one said it is easy. Its a psychological and physical manifestation that you can either resist or not.

This does not make it a disease. It is to my mind the same feeling every recovering addict faces whether it is meth, alcohol, nicotine or gummy bears.

If you are addicted , you are addicted.

[xylophone]

One of the better definitions of alcoholism:-

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."

Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.

Utter rubbish, alcoholism is no more an illness than heroin or cocaine addiction, it's an addiction not an illness or disorder. This clap trap ties to take the responsibility away from the abuser of this particular drug. If you are an alcoholic you are an addict, not a victim.

Just stating a dictionary definition..................!!!

[impulse]

Utter rubbish, alcoholism is no more an illness than heroin or cocaine addiction, it's an addiction not an illness or disorder. This clap trap ties to take the responsibility away from the abuser of this particular drug. If you are an alcoholic you are an addict, not a victim.

You seem to be getting caught in the misconception that equates alcoholism with alcohol abuse. I see that in a lot of posts on this forum. It's very understandable, but not accurate.

Alcoholics have a different reaction to exposure to alcohol than non-alcoholics. It’s a well documented medical fact, and lists of the differences can be found in thousands of websites.

I have met thousands of alcoholics that don’t abuse alcohol. They have taken responsibility for their behavior and stopped drinking. So they don’t abuse alcohol, but they are still alcoholics.

I have also met thousands of normal people who abuse alcohol to the point that it causes huge problems in their lives. Yet they aren’t alcoholics. Problem drinkers? maybe. Butt munches? some of them. Weak willed and irresponsible? not my place to judge. But they’re not alcoholics- they don’t fit the medical definition.

25+ years in, I’m still ambivalent about the characterization of alcoholism as a disease. But my opinion doesn’t wash in the face of the consensus of medical experts.

I do know that can eat all the peanuts and shellfish I want with no problems, while people I know cannot eat either without a trip to the hospital. If shellfish and peanuts can produce such variation of reactions in people, what’s to say some people don’t react differently to alcohol? And those people are called alcoholics by the medical establishment.

I break it down like this- if alcohol is causing problems in my life, I have an alcohol problem. Call it a disease, call it an allergy to alcohol, call it what you want. The problem isn’t going to go away until I take responsibility for it and do something.

[TommyHellsten]

A consumption of 3-4 glasses daily could result into alcoholism, 2-3 glasses would be saver, but not to be consumed daily because the body would become depended on it and one becomes an alcoholic.

Only drink wine five days a week, the two other days must ensue each other, that is to say stop for two days, and then hurrah, hurrah, start again for five days, and you will avoid the danger of becoming an alcoholic.

With it you mean, that the whole of France and Italy, Spain etc. are alcoholics everyone? ....they drink wine, every day!

[wilcopops]

Wine etc doesn't cause dependency...YOU do.

[big carl]

One of the better definitions of alcoholism:-

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."

Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.

Utter rubbish, alcoholism is no more an illness than heroin or cocaine addiction, it's an addiction not an illness or disorder. This clap trap ties to take the responsibility away from the abuser of this particular drug. If you are an alcoholic you are an addict, not a victim.

You are 100% correct you are an addict.

You also have the disease of Alcoholism.

[wilcopops]

One of the better definitions of alcoholism:-

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."

Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.

Utter rubbish, alcoholism is no more an illness than heroin or cocaine addiction, it's an addiction not an illness or disorder. This clap trap ties to take the responsibility away from the abuser of this particular drug. If you are an alcoholic you are an addict, not a victim.

of course in reality, you're both. Until you realise you are an alcoholic then there's nothing you can do....so denying theory after theory is just that...denial.

[big carl]

One of the better definitions of alcoholism:-

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."

Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.

Utter rubbish, alcoholism is no more an illness than heroin or cocaine addiction, it's an addiction not an illness or disorder. This clap trap ties to take the responsibility away from the abuser of this particular drug. If you are an alcoholic you are an addict, not a victim.

Using your guidelines are you an addict if you continue to eat.

Or for that matter breathe.

Try going with out the two of them it will change your attitude the same as Alcohol, Heroin, cocaine and pot along with many other drugs people get addicted to.

[gerryBScot]

I'm quite clear I suffer from a mental illness and that's my diagnosis. I have never seen a trickcyclist and personally don't want to though obviously I would if I felt they could help me. but I must have been totally insane to have persevered with alcohol for the thirty years or so that I did from approx age 15 to 45. I had problems dealing with reality, big problems. I never got into the debate about addiction or disease, dependence or abuse, control or abstinence. I was up shit creek without a paddle, experiencing huge problems, not the least of which was I was missing every third or fourth heart beat. I was dry for four weeks and was contemplating a few beers one day. For reasons i do not understand I called the AA helpline in London and went to a meeting instead of the pub. I haven't drunk since and that was over ten years ago. I used to think I couldn't possibly be an alcoholic because i never experienced DTs.I'm grateful to the AA member who advised me: you're better off in here pretending you are an alcoholic than out there thinking you are not.

[impulse]

I'm grateful to the AA member who advised me: you're better off in here pretending you are an alcoholic than out there thinking you are not.

I just love those pearls of wisdom from the mossbacks.

One of my other favorites: Just imagine what an honest person would do, and try that this time...

[Albertosez]

After reading all of these posts, problems, recommendations and associated health risks with drinking - it's made me want to stop " reading " !!

[jacky54]

Somebody will be along in a minute to tell you reading is a 'disease'!

[big carl]

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After reading all of these posts, problems, recommendations and associated health risks with drinking - it's made me want to stop " reading " !!

Somebody will be along in a minute to tell you reading is a 'disease'!

Just love the people on here who keep reading it and have no use for it.

Won't waste my time questioning them as I already know that Denial is an active part of most active user's life for quite a while before they decide to give it up. Only to discover that they can't.