UN's Ban seeks Israel-Palestine peace talks during upcoming Middle East visit

[Pakboong]

Mr Ban would be better having a holiday, instead of wasting his time with this. Israel simply does not want peace, all they want is continual expansion of their 'territory", while at the same time restricting Palestinian food and water supplies.

Couldn't agree more with this statement.

Couldn't be less surprised. Go ahead and paint Israelis as the bad guys and the Palestinians as the good guys. Anyone with the slightest bit of objectivity knows its not that simple.

http://www.thaivisa....inians-in-2011/

Not sure what you would call this JT, a crime against humanity is the only words I can describe, read the last paragraph! Israel as an occupying power has an obligation to protect civilians and administer the territory for their benefit!! Sure building more homes for Israelis will be benefiting the Palestine's ?? You wonder why some people have such a dim view of Israel !

There is a web-site created by a bunch of former IDF soldiers that gives some interesting information in over 700 testemonials about their experience in the occupied territories. It is call "Breaking the Silence". There aren't that many who view the site for some reason, perhaps because it is an Israeli.org address. There are a few comments, all from Israelis, and the disagreements among Israelis on the material is often more interesting than the testimonials themselves.

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/database/5794

[flying]

There is a web-site created by a bunch of former IDF soldiers that gives some interesting information in over 700 testimonials about their experience in the occupied territories. It is call "Breaking the Silence". There aren't that many who view the site for some reason, perhaps because it is an Israeli.org address. There are a few comments, all from Israelis, and the disagreements among Israelis on the material is often more interesting than the testimonials themselves.

http://www.breakingt...s/database/5794

Thanks Pakboong

That is an interesting site & after reading a few I must say you feel for both sides.

You feel for the soldiers who know something is wrong & the conflict they feel.

You also feel for the folks being broken in on & their fear & lack of being able to communicate in a life or death situation

where the slightest misunderstanding could get them & theirs killed

This one was especially wrenching

Edited January 30, 2012 by flying

[Morch]

There is a web-site created by a bunch of former IDF soldiers that gives some interesting information in over 700 testimonials about their experience in the occupied territories. It is call "Breaking the Silence". There aren't that many who view the site for some reason, perhaps because it is an Israeli.org address. There are a few comments, all from Israelis, and the disagreements among Israelis on the material is often more interesting than the testimonials themselves.

http://www.breakingt...s/database/5794

Thanks Pakboong

That is an interesting site & after reading a few I must say you feel for both sides.

You feel for the soldiers who know something is wrong & the conflict they feel.

You also feel for the folks being broken in on & their fear & lack of being able to communicate in a life or death situation

where the slightest misunderstanding could get them & theirs killed

This one was especially wrenching

There are quite a few organisations like that one in Israel.

While they are in now way a representation of main stream views (most are heavily criticised by main stream and right wing media and politicians), they do exist and so is the internal debate within Israel concerning the Palestinians and the peace process.

Although having diverse opinions and points of view is generally a trait of majority (or "stronger") groups and being a minority is usually associated with a more cohesive point of reference, it is still sad that there aren't many (if at all) similar organisations on the Palestinian side, actively opposing terrorist actions.

[Jingthing]

Exactly. Israel remains a democracy where free speech and dissent is tolerated. Something to be admired, compared to the repressive regime of Hamas. It is way too convenient for people to paint the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in simplistic black/white, good/bad thinking. It is nothing like that. Consider the more liberal minded young Arabs in Gaza and the west bank who would actually prefer to be integrated into greater Israel living with more western values than to live under a radical, Islamic theocratic oppressive regime as under Hamas. For those people, and they are not insignificant in number, they are fighting against BOTH Israeli policies towards Palestinians AND their own governments policies towards their own people.

I am one of those who has always been for a two state solution. However, consider that such an outcome may never happen, and also consider if it does, it won't exactly be a cake walk for much of the Palestinian population. Consider Syria.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jingthing

[Rusty2009]

There is a web-site created by a bunch of former IDF soldiers that gives some interesting information in over 700 testimonials about their experience in the occupied territories. It is call "Breaking the Silence". There aren't that many who view the site for some reason, perhaps because it is an Israeli.org address. There are a few comments, all from Israelis, and the disagreements among Israelis on the material is often more interesting than the testimonials themselves.

http://www.breakingt...s/database/5794

Thanks Pakboong

That is an interesting site & after reading a few I must say you feel for both sides.

You feel for the soldiers who know something is wrong & the conflict they feel.

You also feel for the folks being broken in on & their fear & lack of being able to communicate in a life or death situation

where the slightest misunderstanding could get them & theirs killed

This one was especially wrenching

There are quite a few organisations like that one in Israel.

While they are in now way a representation of main stream views (most are heavily criticised by main stream and right wing media and politicians), they do exist and so is the internal debate within Israel concerning the Palestinians and the peace process.

Although having diverse opinions and points of view is generally a trait of majority (or "stronger") groups and being a minority is usually associated with a more cohesive point of reference, it is still sad that there aren't many (if at all) similar organisations on the Palestinian side, actively opposing terrorist actions.

I also wish the "civilian" people of palestinian could stand and have a say, but when you are stuck in the middle i guess its difficult, i can only relate reports from northern ireland, where the terrorist on both sides policed their communitys so heavily and signs of decent would lead to having your knee caps blown off.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10056251

Edited January 30, 2012 by Rusty2009

[Jingthing]

I also wish the "civilian" people of palestinian could stand and have a say, but when you are stuck in the middle i guess its difficult, i can only relate reports from northern ireland, where the terrorist on both sides policed their communitys so heavily and signs of decent would lead to having your knee caps blown off.

Understood. Just don't assume the two state solution movement is a panacea, or that it will ever even happen.

[Pakboong]

There is a web-site created by a bunch of former IDF soldiers that gives some interesting information in over 700 testimonials about their experience in the occupied territories. It is call "Breaking the Silence". There aren't that many who view the site for some reason, perhaps because it is an Israeli.org address. There are a few comments, all from Israelis, and the disagreements among Israelis on the material is often more interesting than the testimonials themselves.

http://www.breakingt...s/database/5794

Thanks Pakboong

That is an interesting site & after reading a few I must say you feel for both sides.

You feel for the soldiers who know something is wrong & the conflict they feel.

You also feel for the folks being broken in on & their fear & lack of being able to communicate in a life or death situation

where the slightest misunderstanding could get them & theirs killed

This one was especially wrenching

There are quite a few organisations like that one in Israel.

While they are in now way a representation of main stream views (most are heavily criticised by main stream and right wing media and politicians), they do exist and so is the internal debate within Israel concerning the Palestinians and the peace process.

Although having diverse opinions and points of view is generally a trait of majority (or "stronger") groups and being a minority is usually associated with a more cohesive point of reference, it is still sad that there aren't many (if at all) similar organisations on the Palestinian side, actively opposing terrorist actions.

After reading the testemonials, you can easily accept the bell curve of morality exists with the IDF soldiers and the Palestinians, if we judge either by the first or last standard deviation instead of the peak of the bell, we have failed miserably.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Pakboong

[gopnarak]

Hopefully it will be done/started

It of course will take an exchange & that is the hold up.

If it is not a give & take from both sides then there is not much hope.

Agreed. So it is doomed of course because the Palestinians seem like they will NEVER give up their demand for Arab right of return into the negotiated borders of Israel.

Why should they.

Because Israel is a sovereign country and like any sovereign country has every right to make its own immigration rules. As it is now, Israel is 20 percent Arab. If the Palestinians return it will be majority Arab and no longer Israel. That might happen someday but it won't happen from peace talks but a military defeat. Interestingly, those on the Palestinian side who do say they want their own state and will settle for that, also say they won't allow even one Jew to be a citizen there. Pretty racist if you ask me.

Your comment brings out an inconvenient truth that I think is obvious. A huge percentage of people who think Israel deserves all the blame for no peace in their region also happen to be in favor of Israel not existing. So you understand my pessimism.

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

And it is totally false to state that the Palestinian Arabs would not allow that any Jews stay there.

[gopnarak]

Mr Ban would be better having a holiday, instead of wasting his time with this. Israel simply does not want peace, all they want is continual expansion of their 'territory", while at the same time restricting Palestinian food and water supplies.

Couldn't agree more with this statement.

Couldn't be less surprised. Go ahead and paint Israelis as the bad guys and the Palestinians as the good guys. Anyone with the slightest bit of objectivity knows its not that simple.

That they want a "continual expansion of their 'territory"" is a valid argument.

Or what and where are the borders of Israel according their own definition of their borders?

[Steely Dan]

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

And it is totally false to state that the Palestinian Arabs would not allow that any Jews stay there.

You really need to do some basic research. A Palestinian spokesman recently opined that Palestine would be Jew free and judging by the Christian exodus from Palestine you can conclude it is little better for them. As for right of return, nobody talks about compensation for the Jews forced out of Arab lands, not to mention the fact that when you fight a war of annhialation and lose then dam_n right you lose territory.

NEXT.

[gopnarak]

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

And it is totally false to state that the Palestinian Arabs would not allow that any Jews stay there.

You really need to do some basic research. A Palestinian spokesman recently opined that Palestine would be Jew free and judging by the Christian exodus from Palestine you can conclude it is little better for them. As for right of return, nobody talks about compensation for the Jews forced out of Arab lands, not to mention the fact that when you fight a war of annhialation and lose then dam_n right you lose territory.

NEXT.

There are other Palestinian spokesmen who declared that they have nothing against Jews.

You have a very simplified answer to a complicated chicken or egg problem and it seems you think that collective punishment is right.

[Ulysses G.]

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

They should have thought of that before declaring war on Israel. It is too late now.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

They should have thought of that before declaring war on Israel. It is too late now.

That too and is it racist for the government of Italy to favor immigration applicants with an Italian relative over those with no Italian relatives? The Israel demonizers simply do not accept Israels right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state. That's fine for them, but don't expect Israel to bend over and commit suicide just because you hate them. Edited January 30, 2012 by Jingthing

[gopnarak]

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

They should have thought of that before declaring war on Israel. It is too late now.

If you use that construct as reason for denying the Palestinians a right of return, then it is a form of collective punishment and a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.

[Ulysses G.]

Sounds like a personal opinion.

[Jingthing]

Having a sovereign immigration policy is nothing like collective punishment. Nice try, no cigar. I can see a peace negotiation including limited, controlled immigration of Palestinians into Israel which is ALREADY 20 percent Arab. In the scenario of a potential two state solution Israel has every right to decide they want to remain the one state in the world by and for the Jewish people. If I was negotiating on the Israeli side I would demand conditional rights of Jews to immigrate to new Palestine as well. Why should it be one way only? Israeli leaders have never said they would have no Arab Israeli citizens (now 20 percent) but Palestinians leaders HAVE said they don't want even ONE Jew, much less one percent. So which side is racist then?

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jingthing

[gopnarak]

Its a right of RETURN for REFUGEES.

First-generation refugees and their descendants, and their right to return, and a right to the property they or their forebears left or which they were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine), as part of the 1948 Palestinian exodus, a result of the 1948 Palestine war and due to the 1967 Six-Day War.

Expelling people with the constructed argument they are Arabs and because the Arabs started a war against Israel Arabs now have to go is a collective punishment of this people. Denying the right of return with the same constructed reason is collective punishment.

Denying refugees of war the right of return on base of their religion or ethnicity is a form of ethnic cleansing and of course that is a case of racism.

Palestinian leaders have stated endless times that they have no problem with Jews and had lived together in peace in previous generations.

A Golda Meyerson, born Golda Mabovich of Milwaukee, Wisconsin could might have problems to apply for citizenship under the right of return in a Palestinian state, but a Jew from this region whose grandparents, great grandparents lived there like the grandparents of the Palestinians should have no problems.

[Jingthing]

Very naive and obviously the same old Israel demonization party line. The Palestinians want unconditional right of return of ALL Palestinians including the many millions now living all over the globe. They know what that means and Israel knows what that means. The END of Israel. Conditional, controlled, right of return can be on the negotiation table. Unconditional ... never.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

Most of the Palestinian Arabs left because they were told to by other Arabs - so it would be easier to exterminate the Jews. This is well documented. They were offered the option of staying on their property and not fighting the Jews, but many refused. They ones who accepted the offer became citizens of Israel and are still there.

"The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue."

-King Abdullah of Jordan

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Of course its racist not to give Palestinian Arabs a right of return just because they are not Jews.

And it is totally false to state that the Palestinian Arabs would not allow that any Jews stay there.

You really need to do some basic research. A Palestinian spokesman recently opined that Palestine would be Jew free and judging by the Christian exodus from Palestine you can conclude it is little better for them. As for right of return, nobody talks about compensation for the Jews forced out of Arab lands, not to mention the fact that when you fight a war of annhialation and lose then dam_n right you lose territory.

NEXT.

There are other Palestinian spokesmen who declared that they have nothing against Jews.

You have a very simplified answer to a complicated chicken or egg problem and it seems you think that collective punishment is right.

Wrong, yet again. A far better example of collective punishment would be an estimated 800,000 Jews forced to flee arab lands after Israel had the cheek to survive, it was also racist to boot. Whereas in stark contrast after surviving three ethno-religious wars Israel did not expel it's Muslim population and even allows them freedom of religion.

[Morch]

There is a web-site created by a bunch of former IDF soldiers that gives some interesting information in over 700 testimonials about their experience in the occupied territories. It is call "Breaking the Silence". There aren't that many who view the site for some reason, perhaps because it is an Israeli.org address. There are a few comments, all from Israelis, and the disagreements among Israelis on the material is often more interesting than the testimonials themselves.

http://www.breakingt...s/database/5794

Thanks Pakboong

That is an interesting site & after reading a few I must say you feel for both sides.

You feel for the soldiers who know something is wrong & the conflict they feel.

You also feel for the folks being broken in on & their fear & lack of being able to communicate in a life or death situation

where the slightest misunderstanding could get them & theirs killed

This one was especially wrenching

There are quite a few organisations like that one in Israel.

While they are in now way a representation of main stream views (most are heavily criticised by main stream and right wing media and politicians), they do exist and so is the internal debate within Israel concerning the Palestinians and the peace process.

Although having diverse opinions and points of view is generally a trait of majority (or "stronger") groups and being a minority is usually associated with a more cohesive point of reference, it is still sad that there aren't many (if at all) similar organisations on the Palestinian side, actively opposing terrorist actions.

After reading the testemonials, you can easily accept the bell curve of morality exists with the IDF soldiers and the Palestinians, if we judge either by the first or last standard deviation instead of the peak of the bell, we have failed miserably.

I'm sure that there are Palestinians who would prefer the ways of peace.

My point was that you don't actually here them speak up much.

There can be many explanations and reasons, but fact stands that on the whole, you don't hear a lot of criticism when it comes to acts of terror. In some cases quite the opposite. I find it sad.

[Morch]

Its a right of RETURN for REFUGEES.

First-generation refugees and their descendants, and their right to return, and a right to the property they or their forebears left or which they were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine), as part of the 1948 Palestinian exodus, a result of the 1948 Palestine war and due to the 1967 Six-Day War.

Expelling people with the constructed argument they are Arabs and because the Arabs started a war against Israel Arabs now have to go is a collective punishment of this people. Denying the right of return with the same constructed reason is collective punishment.

Denying refugees of war the right of return on base of their religion or ethnicity is a form of ethnic cleansing and of course that is a case of racism.

Palestinian leaders have stated endless times that they have no problem with Jews and had lived together in peace in previous generations.

A Golda Meyerson, born Golda Mabovich of Milwaukee, Wisconsin could might have problems to apply for citizenship under the right of return in a Palestinian state, but a Jew from this region whose grandparents, great grandparents lived there like the grandparents of the Palestinians should have no problems.

Let us imagine this Right of Return taking place. Hundreds of thousands people arriving back to their parens and grand parents home towns. Most of these are stll predominantly (or even solely) populated by Arabs. So ok, we got grandpa's house back....where we going to put all rest of the extended family? Surely you're not suggesting taking Arab's land by force.

Get real, The actual application of the Right of Return is very complicated and very contraversial issue on many levels. Dealing just with one aspect sounds good, and will get you some brownie points as a startup politician, but won't make problems go away.

To date, there isn't one detailed plan how to carry this out in a reasonable way which is accepted by all parties involved (yes, including Israelis, Palestinian refugees, countries hosting refugees, Arab Israelis, Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, countries who will pay the bill for it all).

Now then...Right of Return. Does it work both ways? Can Jews go back to Iraq, Egypt, Syria or wherever? Get their property (or compensation) back? Get their rights back? Not really.

[gopnarak]

Denying the Right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument their return would be a demographic treat is a racist argument.

Denying the right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument that Jewish refugees cannot go back to Egypt, Morocco, Yemen is a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian Arabs.

It would be wrong to assume that two wrongs make it right or If you think that is okay that Jewish refugees are not allowed to return back or that they have no right to get a compensation - you are wrong too.

But that is an issue you have to discuss with Libya, Iraq or whatever but not with the Palestinian refugees.

[gopnarak]

I'm sure that there are Palestinians who would prefer the ways of peace.

My point was that you don't actually here them speak up much.

There can be many explanations and reasons, but fact stands that on the whole, you don't hear a lot of criticism when it comes to acts of terror. In some cases quite the opposite. I find it sad.

If you don't hear them you should start to listen.

[Morch]

Denying the Right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument their return would be a demographic treat is a racist argument.

Denying the right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument that Jewish refugees cannot go back to Egypt, Morocco, Yemen is a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian Arabs.

It would be wrong to assume that two wrongs make it right or If you think that is okay that Jewish refugees are not allowed to return back or that they have no right to get a compensation - you are wrong too.

But that is an issue you have to discuss with Libya, Iraq or whatever but not with the Palestinian refugees.

The demographic and economical conditions won't change by ignoring them.

So once again....where are all of those people supposed to live? How are they going to make a living? Or is just having them return and letting it sort out itself good enough?

Would Arab Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank be forthcoming to return properties they held on to for such a long time? Are they willing to share limited living space with refugees?

This isn't just about Israeli or Jewish views. A whole lot more complex.

I wasn't denying any right of anyone. just pointing out that while the Palestinians and the Arab world in general call for a Right of Return, it seems they apply it one way only.

[Morch]

I'm sure that there are Palestinians who would prefer the ways of peace.

My point was that you don't actually here them speak up much.

There can be many explanations and reasons, but fact stands that on the whole, you don't hear a lot of criticism when it comes to acts of terror. In some cases quite the opposite. I find it sad.

If you don't hear them you should start to listen.

I would be glad to. Links?

[gopnarak]

I'm sure that there are Palestinians who would prefer the ways of peace.

My point was that you don't actually here them speak up much.

There can be many explanations and reasons, but fact stands that on the whole, you don't hear a lot of criticism when it comes to acts of terror. In some cases quite the opposite. I find it sad.

If you don't hear them you should start to listen.

I would be glad to. Links?

I still haven't figured out what is considered off topic here or will get labeled and deleted as conspiracy theory or nonsense and for what posters get penalised.

I don't want test that out with a trial and error method as there are also punishments for doing it wrong and also a waste of time on my side when my posts get deleted.

But judging by other comments i have read from you, i think you have the ears to hear and are also aware how distorted the images we get trough the media can sometimes be.

[Jingthing]

Translation: no links.

[gopnarak]

Denying the Right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument their return would be a demographic treat is a racist argument.

Denying the right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument that Jewish refugees cannot go back to Egypt, Morocco, Yemen is a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian Arabs.

It would be wrong to assume that two wrongs make it right or If you think that is okay that Jewish refugees are not allowed to return back or that they have no right to get a compensation - you are wrong too.

But that is an issue you have to discuss with Libya, Iraq or whatever but not with the Palestinian refugees.

The demographic and economical conditions won't change by ignoring them.

So once again....where are all of those people supposed to live? How are they going to make a living? Or is just having them return and letting it sort out itself good enough?

Would Arab Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank be forthcoming to return properties they held on to for such a long time? Are they willing to share limited living space with refugees?

This isn't just about Israeli or Jewish views. A whole lot more complex.

I wasn't denying any right of anyone. just pointing out that while the Palestinians and the Arab world in general call for a Right of Return, it seems they apply it one way only.

I just pointed out the racist nature of some simplistic arguments.

Of course such migration process will not come without any problems, but is that a reason to deny the right of return?

Who said that they will come in masses and every Arab around the world who has some distant relative in the greater grand parents generation with a connection to Palestine will now send all his children and grandchildren, wives, aunts, uncles cousins and their children and grand children to beat the Israeli Jews in the demographic match.

So what to do with those people in these refugee ghettos. Ignoring them? Denying that the exist? Waiting longer till all of the original and first generation of refugees have died because of old age and their grand children are now the grandparents themselves so that because they don't know anyone who was once really there their hope to "return" becomes totally abstract and any right to return doesn't become valid before a 2000 years waiting period in the diaspora?

And again don't lump all Arabs from all these different countries together just because you can call them all Arabs.

But okay, you were not the only one who mentioned that so lets look at that argument.

Assumed that

1. In the Arab world in general Jews were forced to flee and leave their homes. If these Jewish refugees would now ask for a right of return to their grandparents homes it would be denied by the Arab world.

Assumed that

2. Somehow it happened that the Palestinian Arabs left their homes in a hurry and became refugees. These Palestinian Arabs demand a right of return to their homeland but that is denied by Israel.

3. And now?

[Jingthing]

The right of return thing is just a ruse. Read the Hamas charter. They want ALL of Israel back. This is no secret, it is policy. The "moderates" are OK with the ploy of going for a separate state as the FIRST step. That's what Israel is dealing with. Sober people see that clearly. Israel MAY possibly be able to play ball with this "first step" strategy of the Palestinians IF the deal includes significant SECURITY guarantees for Israel and of course unconditional right of return is impossible. Since the goal of the Palestinians would be diminished by adequate security, the chances of them agreeing to a deal that would satisfy Israel's security concerns are very dim. I see no reason for any optimism of a peace deal any time remotely soon. BTW, yes satisfying these security concerns DOES involve Israel keeping some lands the Palestinians aren't likely to be willing to let them have.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jingthing