Trouble With Builders

[dave111223]

I'm building a house through a full service house building company.

We have just started and already there have been several "extra costs" above the signed contract. These costs have all been kind of gray-area as the contract is not really clear on these issues. For example they decided they actually wanted to put longer piles, or they had only included cold water taps (despite including hot water piping in the build).

I feel i've been pretty amiable and paid these costs without much fuss; as I felt there was reasonable doubt; I also know that if I want extra stuff installed (extra plug here, extra light here) i know i'll have to pay more for this.

However they have now said the deck area needs to be structured differently and it will cost more (they planned the stucture, all I did was tell them the size). We have a clear layout of where the deck is and how much it costs. The money is fairly insignificant (a few thounsand baht) but I'm worried that if i agree to pay this it will set a precedent that i will pay extra for anything ("oops we needed more concrete, pay more", "oops we need another roof beam, pay more"...etc...this is exactly why we used a full service builder so that we wouldn't get sucked into some kind of unknown money pitt situation.

I basically said "Either build the deck for the quoted contract price, or don't build the deck at all". It seems like they are inclined to take the "Don't build it at all" option; which is a pain for me as I then need to find someone else to do the deck later.

Would you either:

A) Cave to their demands, set a precedent of paying extra that could potentially cost a lot more as the build goes on.

B ) Stick to your guns, but end up with a pain in the ass finding someone else to build a deck; and maybe I can't find anyone with a similar deck price.

Edited February 6, 2012 by dave111223

[necronx99]

Isn't there a schedule of inclusions?

Sounds like you are being taken.

[4evermaat]

If you havent already paid too much, cancel contract and cut your losses?

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

[dave111223]

Isn't there a schedule of inclusions?

Sounds like you are being taken.

The quote for deck has all the materials listed such Smartwood, concrete type, pile types etc..but does not have a quantity of each of these materials. They say they need to put in more piles than they "planned" (quote did not specify the number they "planned on").

Basically in my opinion the request for additional money for this baseless and their reasoning is non-sense. Which is why i'm concerned because if they can request extra money for this, they can pretty much request it for anything, even if they specifically cover it in the contract.

ie "we only planning on using 10 screws, we had to use 12"...

[dave111223]

If you havent already paid too much, cancel contract and cut your losses?

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

I have only paid the initally deposit (5%) so not much money on the line yet...but we have WAY too much time/emotion tied up in it to just walk away from the whole project. Already spent a year shopping different builders, researching builders, going to home builder expos, then 6 months with this builder doing plans, contracts and going over all the materials blah blah etc...

[4evermaat]

I have only paid the initally deposit (5%) so not much money on the line yet...but we have WAY too much time/emotion tied up in it to just walk away from the whole project. Already spent a year shopping different builders, researching builders, going to home builder expos, then 6 months with this builder doing plans, contracts and going over all the materials blah blah etc...

Other more experienced builders ask specifics about the construction, but if your GUT feeling is flagging this operation, then at the minimum, seek clarification before dropping any

Ppmore funds. ....which is kind of what you are doing now.

Especially considering that you will never actually own the property here, its even more important that you get what you order 100%. No matter how much research you have done, there is a possibility that you are being played. People wear many masks to earn your business. It's probably a miscommunication thing. I'm only pointing out not to be too attached on these situations. One of the benefits of your research is that you have #2 and #3 contractor in case #1 contractor wouldnt sign/failed.

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

[necronx99]

Isn't there a schedule of inclusions?

Sounds like you are being taken.

The quote for deck has all the materials listed such Smartwood, concrete type, pile types etc..but does not have a quantity of each of these materials. They say they need to put in more piles than they "planned" (quote did not specify the number they "planned on").

Basically in my opinion the request for additional money for this baseless and their reasoning is non-sense. Which is why i'm concerned because if they can request extra money for this, they can pretty much request it for anything, even if they specifically cover it in the contract.

ie "we only planning on using 10 screws, we had to use 12"...

Is the contract and schedule in english? Is it a fixed price contract or is there room to move on some things written in?

If they hit you up extra for hot water taps despite specifying hot water plumbing then you may be in for a long ride.

"Oh, you wanted light switches that go on AND off? That will be extra, glass in the windows? extra.

From the amounts it sounds like beer money for the sitecrew.

If this is a corperate type builder and you are being hit up by a site manager you could try going over his head to has these issues cleared up. Otherwize I would have them stop and go through every Item on or not on the contract now, all items should be specified in detail (brands or cost allowance of fittings, cost allowance for tiles etc.).

E.g. Your contract should specify hot/cold taps to bath/kitchen/laundry with an allowance of x baht per tap.

[T_Dog]

Dave,

It sounds like your full service company is purchasing the material. Is that correct? If so, it might be reasonable for them to charge more for changes or for discoveries in the build process. Thai builders are usually very experienced so the outer deck changes might be required based on real needs. Have you asked them for their reasoning on the changes? Large decks might require extra steel and ground beams to avoid cracking. On the hot/cold water issue, I'd point that out in the contract and make them provide it. It is a bit hard to provide advice without knowing the company and site/house details, but a good relationship with your builder is imperative if you are building in Thailand. We have made changes in our build as well but since we are buying the material it has been a non-event.

[Asianrider]

doesn't sound like the builder planned very well !

[dave111223]

Just to clarify the money is being asked by the company (not by crew/labors/foreman etc..) we have no money dealings with any of these people. All money is paid directly to the building company.

It sounds like your full service company is purchasing the material. Is that correct? If so, it might be reasonable for them to charge more for changes or for discoveries in the build process. Thai builders are usually very experienced so the outer deck changes might be required based on real needs. Have you asked them for their reasoning on the changes?

Yes company purchases all the materials, we just pay them total XX baht amount for the whole house. They have given a million bullsh*t reasons as to why the additional charge.

Is the contract and schedule in english? Is it a fixed price contract or is there room to move on some things written in?

If they hit you up extra for hot water taps despite specifying hot water plumbing then you may be in for a long ride.

"Oh, you wanted light switches that go on AND off? That will be extra, glass in the windows? extra.

Contract is in Thai, it's like 50 pages long and wife and I have gone over it all but there is always ways to pick it apart or find a way to say something is not included if you really wanted...ie "We said we'd provide light switches...but the faceplates cost more..."

In years gone by I probably would have fought it all the way, and seen how far they'll take it, but I just don't want to end up with really sour relationship with the builder, so I've agreed to pay up.

Although i've essentially gone belly up, hopefully i've pissed and moaned about it enough to avoid these "extra" charges coming up too frequently, i guess time will tell.

[cliffbu]

I think wise decision of you not to end up with really sour relationship with the builder

[xen]

We can always have wisdom when it comes to hindsight but the way i have been managing contracts for quite a few years is by having a lump sum for a prescribed outcome plus a schedule of rates for both materials and /or installation (labour) so if there is an extra that arises there is a known cost attached to it which comes out of the continguency budget. This has not always stopped conflicts but has meant the costs do not blow out too much from our expectations. It sounds like ,in your case you will have to cop it sweet to avoid too much conflict or else get it done later those elements that can be done at a later date, but ,of course, that is not always possible.

Also with a schedule of rates it can mean you can purchase the materials yourself and have them installed at the quoted rate . This arrangement would need to be stated in the specification section of the contract and that you reserve the right to do so. If you have no negotionation with the contract and specifications then that makes it difficult.

Best of luck with it anyway.

[supaprik]

doesn't sound like the builder planned very well !

Or the opposite..

[trogers]

this is exactly why we used a full service builder

This is why large projects have consultants as third parties to certify work done, values of changes and time delays and on to whose accounts.

[inzman]

Sounds like they are professional scammers, not builders. You can expect more of the same. Better to be a little tougher with them.Good luck.

[Langsuan Man]

In a country without a non judicial enforcement mechanism, contracts here are virtually worthless

Trying to get a lawyer to help you enforce your rights is a costly and time consuming effort and since no one will take a lawsuit based upon a contingency you will end up spending a fortune and may end up with nothing

Cut your losses and get out before you have too much invested

[Gary A]

In my opinion, you have gotten started entirely wrong. I would never allow the builder to furnish the material. Doing that will result in shoddy material, poor building standards and the builder buying the cheapest junk available. If the builder has estimated the cost, he should be able to give you a complete list of the material needed. If he cannot do that, he is incompetent to do the job. Allowing the builder to furnish the material will encourage him to use less cement and re-rod in the masonry than is suitable and it is likely that your house in just a few years will have cracks and settling that would not happen if the proper amount of material were used.

Building a house is a tough job for sure. The last project we did, we bought all the material. Even doing that, you have to be careful. Our re-rod and bags of cement disappeared. Finding a knowledgeable and reliable person to oversee the entire project in not easy either but that type of person would be quite valuable.

[cmsally]

Normally when the builder (company) gives you a price on the house, it is according to the plans you've had drawn up. There shouldn't be any difference unless you alter plans or add on. If they have wrongly calculated they should suck up the difference.

We are building at the moment but have taken a different approach, which is to buy all our own materials and pay for labour by the job. For example flooring is so much per square metre and columns so much. We will be hiring different crews for each job structure/bathrooms/electric / roof etc etc Basically being our own contractor.

If you are going to follow this through you basically need to do some damage control and go through the plans now with the contractor and ask him where it is going to go outside the budget. If it is not following plans then ask why. You need to go through every detail now and come to an agreement. Even better if you can get a third party who knows something about building to negotiate for you, that way you can still keep on speaking terms, instead of getting in an argument.

[richard_smith237]

You've either got a good builder from whom you are getting a good deal, but some additional and unforeseen costs need to be passed on to you.

Or, you have a builder who's trying it on.

Ultimately, you should be able to tell by the quality of workmanship carried out so far.

Chasing a builder up in court is a no goer. Its easy to win, but getting the compensation or refund is a whole new issue.

If you ask for an itemised list of costs, it should be easy enough to recognise if these were simply over sights.

The key issue here is to make sure you remain thinking of the bigger picture to get a quality house built.

[T_Dog]

You've either got a good builder from whom you are getting a good deal, but some additional and unforeseen costs need to be passed on to you.

Or, you have a builder who's trying it on.

Ultimately, you should be able to tell by the quality of workmanship carried out so far.

Chasing a builder up in court is a no goer. Its easy to win, but getting the compensation or refund is a whole new issue.

If you ask for an itemised list of costs, it should be easy enough to recognise if these were simply over sights.

The key issue here is to make sure you remain thinking of the bigger picture to get a quality house built.

Yep. Selection of a builder also has to involve evaluation early on. Talk to prior clients to get their review. Tour the builder's prior builds to see if the work is consistent with your needs. Just picking someone without some type of evaluation and qualification is sure to get you in trouble.

[dave111223]

We have a materials list and it's pretty detailed, for example:

American Standard Toilet XYZ

Cotto Sink model ABC

etc...

but it doesn't mean they couldn't say something like "we only included 1 toilet, not 1 for each bathroom" or "We don't include the toilet seats, or the workings..." these are the kind of things i thought were a no-brainer and assumed...but now I'm a bit worried. And obviously it would not be possible to have materials list which listed every item down to toilet flush handles...

I don't have the experience to handle just buying the materials myself and hiring laborors. I previously renovated a townhouse buying the materials and then just hiring local builders and even for that fairly small scale project it was a total nightmare; i can't image doing a whole house that way. The workers walked off the project about 75% the way through because the main guy who we'd been paying, had not been paying them in full. Also the quality of work was pretty sh*t; it didn't really matter that much because it's a commercial building.

Most of the workers were straight up dumb, for example I told them about 10 times to make sure the toilet was in the right position before pouring the concrete floor...nope they poured the concrete first, then spent 2 days cutting the concrete out to move the toilet pipe because it was too close to the wall to fit a toilet. It was like this every single day. I think i'd go crazy if I had to do that every day for a year on my own house.

We went through all the steps in choosing a builder: went to expos, visited current projects, talked to old customers, read reviews, got quotes, etc...but you never really know until the rubber hits the road.

[Crossy]

I really feel for you Dave, having problems this early in your build is worrying although I'm sure it will all turn out OK in the end.

We seem to have been very lucky with our contractor. He came highly recommended but is most definitely not cheap, he has not asked for one Satang extra (yet) just an advance of one of the stage payments when they re-started after the flooding (which I paid happily).

Our contract specifically excludes things like sanitary fittings and electrical items, we buy ourselves and the man fits. It means that we get what we (Wifey that is, 15k for a sink! ) want. I must verify if his part of the electrical installation includes switches and outlets

Even with a good builder and labour (and his chaps are good) you have to watch every step of the way (remember my hardwood windows).

There is always someone senior on-site, even then things go wrong, walls in the wrong place etc. I spotted a problem with the roof structure and a foul between two sections. Of course when I pointed it out it was 'no problem' (but they did nothing) until they came to fit the fascias and it all came to a screeching halt, an easy fix actually, but it would have been better to handle it earlier rather than when it caused an issue.

[cmsally]

I basically said "Either build the deck for the quoted contract price, or don't build the deck at all". It seems like they are inclined to take the "Don't build it at all" option; which is a pain for me as I then need to find someone else to do the deck later.

Presumably if no deck at all then you get a discount

Does the deck have pillars or is it an extension of the ground floor. You need to ask him why it needs to be restructured and why it won't conform to the plans. Is it going to need extra metal/concrete etc etc

[NKBase]

I would like to warn particulary for a company in Nong Khai, called XXXX XXXX XXXXXX. It's run by an Englishman and his Thai wife who have absolutely no clue about running a company, let alone a construction/building company. We got screwed by them for 50K Bath just to find ourselves 3 months later with nothing more than a half baked 3D model, full of mistakes and useless for a next architect/builder. Our project is now postponed to after the rain season because of this useless idiot. We are now dealing directly with Thai people, which is a huge improvement. Watch out for "falang" with building companies that want to make a quick buck on their fellow falang's. It pay's to look for Thai builders and designers with experience and proven track records.

We put a lawyer on the guy to have our money back and teach him a lesson.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Crossy
sorry company name removed per forum rules

[Crossy]

Sorry NKBase, due to Thailand's draconian defamation/libel laws we don't allow name-and-shame.

[Langsuan Man]

What I have found to be the main difference between builders here and in the US is that there builders can obtain Contractors price for materials and there does not appear to be such a system here in Thailand

When I was arranging for a credit account with one of the large US Home Improvement chains and also a small independent one, the first question asked was: What percentage do you want added to the invoice ? I subsequently found out that this amount can be up to 20% or more than the actual price paid by the contractor and is a very common practice in the US

In talking to several builder here in Thailand I have been told that other than an occasional promotion or maybe reward points builders in Thailand don't appear to be able to get any better deals than do consumers on materials

This may not be true for extremely large builders but for the small ones they don't appear to have this extra revenue stream

[NKBase]

Allright, Crossy. That's a shame. Better to be more descriptive than, I guess?

[NKBase]

What I have found to be the main difference between builders here and in the US is that there builders can obtain Contractors price for materials and there does not appear to be such a system here in Thailand

When I was arranging for a credit account with one of the large US Home Improvement chains and also a small independent one, the first question asked was: What percentage do you want added to the invoice ? I subsequently found out that this amount can be up to 20% or more than the actual price paid by the contractor and is a very common practice in the US

In talking to several builder here in Thailand I have been told that other than an occasional promotion or maybe reward points builders in Thailand don't appear to be able to get any better deals than do consumers on materials

This may not be true for extremely large builders but for the small ones they don't appear to have this extra revenue stream

We went to Global House and were able to get a discount if we could present them a list of materials (BOQ) we wanted to buy there. They also stated that building companies/contractors can have a discount. Home Pro seems to do the same, although we didn't ask there yet. A builder who gets a discount from the supplier is not going to tell you that. This is Thailand, and Thai would immediately ask to have that discount given to them as a client of the builder.

[thaihome]

It should be easy for the OP when asked to pay extra for something he requests the contract article that requires him to pay be provided.

It sounds like his problem with both the extra length piles and the deck would come under the unexpected soil conditions clause of the contract and lkely the owner is required to pay for any extras needed due to soil conditions. The deal about the hot water taps and plumbing have me a bit confused and I suspect there is more to the storey.

The contractor actually sounds like they are being very professional in notifying the OP of every change encountered along the way rather than waiting till the end and handing over a bill for everything that must be paid before the house is transferred to the owner.

TH

Edited February 17, 2012 by thaihome

[dave111223]

It sounds like his problem with both the extra length piles and the deck would come under the unexpected soil conditions clause of the contract and lkely the owner is required to pay for any extras needed due to soil conditions.

Yes there was a condition in the contract about the extra cost for longer piles was paid by us, which is why i said I "paid these costs without much fuss" (as stated in the OP)....despite the fact that before the contract was signed "18 meter piles will be fine"...all of a sudden a month later "you really need 21 meter piles" (they never did any soil "testing" before or after the contract)

The deck had nothing to do with soil conditions, but instead was due to them incorrectly planning how the deck would be structured.

The contractor actually sounds like they are being very professional in notifying the OP of every change encountered along the way rather than waiting till the end and handing over a bill for everything that must be paid before the house is transferred to the owner.

TH

Can you please clarify what you mean by "house is transferred to the owner"? I already hold the Chanote for the land; does that not automatically make me the owner of anything they build?