Demented Englishman Update

[necronx99]

I stressed the need for an arrest to be "orchestrated", i.e. have family and friends nearby who can see the process and determine immediately where they intend to take the poor man. Then get on the phone to the emergency hotline with the Embassy and go to the jail. The idea isn't to have the guy hauled away into a black hole, never to be seen again, but rather to get him into a place where he can't harm anyone and has to abide by a judge's order.

The poor people who are documented in those news stories had been "forgotten" by their family and friends. I'm not suggesting that anyone do that with this poor man. It's just a way to get him into a situation where the British Embassy can act in his best interests. Now, they can't unless he submits voluntarily.

"Orchestrated arrest"....you do which country we are in Nancy ?....The BiB make the keystone cops look like a compentant police force....

As to the British Embassy "acting his best interests"......the only interests the BE looks after are its own..

I dont were people get the the idea that embassies are there to help their citizens, they are not.....the less interaction the BE has with its own citizens the happier they are as they dont want to deal with their own peasants, this is why visa's have been outsourced, PP renewal/issue have been moved to centralised locations etc...

The only time you will see the BE do anything quickly is when the Pims, the scottish smoked salmon or the Champagne cocktails run out

This is correct and..proper. how much control do you want them to have over you?

I'm not sure what the OP hopes to achieve here, As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

If he was sent home the best he could hope for is support from charities as it seems his family have abandoned him. The Thai wife might be best off just dropping him at the embassy and moving on with her life.

[bobl]

As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

Ummm... what??

I know the UK government prefer people to be good little citizens, handing over all their money and being grateful they're allowed to keep enough for a couple of weeks in Spain every year, but last time I checked UK citizens (regardless of where they live) were still entitled to a modicum of healthcare - provided they could get their ass back to the UK of course...

[necronx99]

As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

Ummm... what??

I know the UK government prefer people to be good little citizens, handing over all their money and being grateful they're allowed to keep enough for a couple of weeks in Spain every year, but last time I checked UK citizens (regardless of where they live) were still entitled to a modicum of healthcare - provided they could get their ass back to the UK of course...

And be resident? Resident which has a meaning other than just being there.

[cmsally]

As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

Ummm... what??

I know the UK government prefer people to be good little citizens, handing over all their money and being grateful they're allowed to keep enough for a couple of weeks in Spain every year, but last time I checked UK citizens (regardless of where they live) were still entitled to a modicum of healthcare - provided they could get their ass back to the UK of course...

And be resident? Resident which has a meaning other than just being there.

Hence my other post on the first page. This residency thing is becoming quite important.

If you look at any of the articles, for example:

http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=125

They all say the local authority is first place to decide funding. So this basically depends on your address. This could all get a bit surreal when you have no address.

[bobl]

And be resident? Resident which has a meaning other than just being there.

I stand to be corrected but unless he's revoked his British citizenship he should still have certain entitlements in the UK. I know various governments have been trying for decades to destroy the National Health Service but they haven't quite managed yet.

National Health Service Act 2006

1 Secretary of State's duty to promote health service

(1) The Secretary of State must continue the promotion in England of a comprehensive health service designed to secure improvement—

(a) in the physical and mental health of the people of England, and

(b ) in the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness.

(2) The Secretary of State must for that purpose provide or secure the provision of services in accordance with this Act.

(3)The services so provided must be free of charge except in so far as the making and recovery of charges is expressly provided for by or under any enactment, whenever passed.

Applies to ALL British citizens, not just British residents

edit: Aargh edited the part that turns b ) into

Edited February 19, 2012 by bobl

[cmsally]

And be resident? Resident which has a meaning other than just being there.

I stand to be corrected but unless he's revoked his British citizenship he should still have certain entitlements in the UK. I know various governments have been trying for decades to destroy the National Health Service but they haven't quite managed yet.

National Health Service Act 2006

1 Secretary of State's duty to promote health service

(1) The Secretary of State must continue the promotion in England of a comprehensive health service designed to secure improvement—

(a) in the physical and mental health of the people of England, and

(

in the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness.

(2) The Secretary of State must for that purpose provide or secure the provision of services in accordance with this Act.

(3)The services so provided must be free of charge except in so far as the making and recovery of charges is expressly provided for by or under any enactment, whenever passed.

Applies to ALL British citizens, not just British residents

Absolutely correct, BUT just wondering how this would work in practice, as the first port of call for funding would be local authority. Somewhere along the line you would have to override them and get "national" help. Where would one go?

[digitalchromakey]

As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

Ummm... what??

I know the UK government prefer people to be good little citizens, handing over all their money and being grateful they're allowed to keep enough for a couple of weeks in Spain every year, but last time I checked UK citizens (regardless of where they live) were still entitled to a modicum of healthcare - provided they could get their ass back to the UK of course...

If you are not considered 'Habitually Resident' in the UK you may well for example, be initially denied state benefits on first returning to the UK; that is, if you were previously habitually resident, until you have been in the UK for 'an appreciable length of time' which is said to be around 8 weeks.

The habitual residence test

The test now applies to income support (IS), income-based jobseeker's allowance (IB-JSA), housing benefit (HB) and council tax benefit (CTB). A claimant for these benefits has to show that s/he is habitually resident in the 'common travel area' (CTA) (essentially, the British Isles), in addition to satisfying the other conditions of entitlement

[IMA_FARANG]

Reading through the comments on this topic...it stikes me that everyone seems to be concerned about him, and not about his wife.

From what I've seen in the replies, as sympathetic i am with him, I would also be worried about what he might do to his wife.

If he already has hit her with his walking stick and actually dislocated her finger...then SHE needs protection from him.

That's why she needs to get the Thai police involved....to protect herself.

Before she is seriously hurt by him.

[necronx99]

Reading through the comments on this topic...it stikes me that everyone seems to be concerned about him, and not about his wife.

From what I've seen in the replies, as sympathetic i am with him, I would also be worried about what he might do to his wife.

If he already has hit her with his walking stick and actually dislocated her finger...then SHE needs protection from him.

That's why she needs to get the Thai police involved....to protect herself.

Before she is seriously hurt by him.

Agree, if this was a in the UK and they were a Thai couple the responses would be?

[Mario2008]

Criminalizing the case doesn't help.

Getting the man help will also mean much needed help for the wife.

[Mobi]

The UK law is very clear and has been discussed at length on a recent thread in General topics.

Any British citizen is entitled to emergency medical assistance during a visit to England. If he has spent at least 10 years of his life in the UK and is a state pensioner he has even more entitlements.

Once a British citizen returns to the UK and 'declares his intention' of becoming resident then he becomes re-entitled to the full gamut of National health services.

I am absolutely positive that if this man is somehow returned to the UK, then he will be taken care of by the State. They will not turn him away and they will not refuse to treat him. It may be a bit of a hassle when he first arrives, but presumably by involving the embassy, his path can be smoothed.

I am sure he is not the first British expat that has been in this situation.

The current regulations are specifically designed to prevent expats from returning to the UK just to receive free medical treatment, and then going back overseas.

But if they fall ill during a visit, they will get emergency treatment free of charge and if an operation is required, they will get it it, and only later will they try to recover the costs.They will NOT be refused to treatment, even if they have no money.

[chrisinth]

Criminalizing the case doesn't help.

Getting the man help will also mean much needed help for the wife.

Agreed Mario, get the guy and his wife help, and stop the talk about getting the police involved. The ultimate resolution will come from the British representitive in this case, unless the wife raises complaints of assault which I would seriously doubt.

Frank, please take note of what Mario suggests, you have thus far put yourself out by representing the plight of the Englishman; take it to the conclusion!

[Soutpeel]

The ultimate resolution will come from the British representitive in this case,

You wouldnt like to bet on that would you ?.....

They didnt do much for the poor b*stard who was chained up in a Pattaya jail, what makes you think they will do anything for this guy ?

[frankpelagic]

It is begining to look like the UK Embassy is about to get a 100kg incontinent bewildered guest. Sooner rather than later. I guess they could set him up with a shopping trolley and a pile of carriers bags if they do repatriate him, or they could arrange residential care. I will keep everyone posted when a 'solution' arrives. One way or the other.

[frankpelagic]

The UK law is very clear and has been discussed at length on a recent thread in General topics.

Any British citizen is entitled to emergency medical assistance during a visit to England. If he has spent at least 10 years of his life in the UK and is a state pensioner he has even more entitlements.

Once a British citizen returns to the UK and 'declares his intention' of becoming resident then he becomes re-entitled to the full gamut of National health services.

I am absolutely positive that if this man is somehow returned to the UK, then he will be taken care of by the State. They will not turn him away and they will not refuse to treat him. It may be a bit of a hassle when he first arrives, but presumably by involving the embassy, his path can be smoothed.

I am sure he is not the first British expat that has been in this situation.

The current regulations are specifically designed to prevent expats from returning to the UK just to receive free medical treatment, and then going back overseas.

But if they fall ill during a visit, they will get emergency treatment free of charge and if an operation is required, they will get it it, and only later will they try to recover the costs.They will NOT be refused to treatment, even if they have no money.

I agree MOBI. Unfortunately he has no way of getting to the UK. No money. He would be unable to travel alone. He would not even be able to find his way out of Heathrow. I am sure he would not be able to find the toilet on the plane. I think the UK government should bite the bullet, repatriate him, and get him into residential care. This has the potential to turn very ugly for the Embassy, especially now they have been made aware of his plight. It could be so easily solved now.

[necronx99]

The UK law is very clear and has been discussed at length on a recent thread in General topics.

Any British citizen is entitled to emergency medical assistance during a visit to England. If he has spent at least 10 years of his life in the UK and is a state pensioner he has even more entitlements.

Once a British citizen returns to the UK and 'declares his intention' of becoming resident then he becomes re-entitled to the full gamut of National health services.

I am absolutely positive that if this man is somehow returned to the UK, then he will be taken care of by the State. They will not turn him away and they will not refuse to treat him. It may be a bit of a hassle when he first arrives, but presumably by involving the embassy, his path can be smoothed.

I am sure he is not the first British expat that has been in this situation.

The current regulations are specifically designed to prevent expats from returning to the UK just to receive free medical treatment, and then going back overseas.

But if they fall ill during a visit, they will get emergency treatment free of charge and if an operation is required, they will get it it, and only later will they try to recover the costs.They will NOT be refused to treatment, even if they have no money.

I agree MOBI. Unfortunately he has no way of getting to the UK. No money. He would be unable to travel alone. He would not even be able to find his way out of Heathrow. I am sure he would not be able to find the toilet on the plane. I think the UK government should bite the bullet, repatriate him, and get him into residential care. This has the potential to turn very ugly for the Embassy, especially now they have been made aware of his plight. It could be so easily solved now.

What you are suggesting is just not a function that governments provide.

Good luck though.

[Soutpeel]

It is begining to look like the UK Embassy is about to get a 100kg incontinent bewildered guest. Sooner rather than later. I guess they could set him up with a shopping trolley and a pile of carriers bags if they do repatriate him, or they could arrange residential care. I will keep everyone posted when a 'solution' arrives. One way or the other.

The cruel side of me says....somebody take him to the BE in BKK with his passport in his top pocket and a note pinned to his jacket explaining the situation, gain entry to grounds and sit him down somewhere and leave him there.....the consular staff would choke on their G&T's, but at least they would be foced into doing something

The party taking him in could sit over the road with a cup of coffee and camera to hand and see what happens....if they turf him out...photos and story to the British newspapers

[evadgib]

http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/mental_health

[Soutpeel]

http://www.fco.gov.u...f/mental_health

I would think this beautifully produced pamplet cost 250,000 quid to produce and basically says,..... they will do nothing to help you...!!

[cmsally]

Looking at this:

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN-GB/Factsheets/FS25_Returning_from_abroad_pro.pdf?dtrk=true

the only option on return to UK would be to admit to a hospital; "emergency medical care " cannot be refused and it would provide the necessary kick up the butt for the social services to sort things out. I think they would do this if push came to shove. They need to free up beds and the discharge needs to look well organised for their records.

That would leave the nightmare of getting him to the UK which he obviously is not capable of doing himself. That would be the problem as its not really the embassy's job to do this.

A right royal mess.

[chrisinth]

The ultimate resolution will come from the British representitive in this case,

You wouldnt like to bet on that would you ?.....

They didnt do much for the poor b*stard who was chained up in a Pattaya jail, what makes you think they will do anything for this guy ?

The very fact that he was in a Thai jail in the first place should support my arguement for not getting the police involved

[Soutpeel]

The ultimate resolution will come from the British representitive in this case,

You wouldnt like to bet on that would you ?.....

They didnt do much for the poor b*stard who was chained up in a Pattaya jail, what makes you think they will do anything for this guy ?

The very fact that he was in a Thai jail in the first place should support my arguement for not getting the police involved

Exactly....should not be getting Thailand's finest involved at this current point in time.

[lopburi3]

I believe the person that was jailed is an entirely different case and nothing was known about him at the time. It is not a case of this person previously being jailed from my understanding.

[Mobi]

This post is to the mods.

Why is this thread in the visa forum?

What has it got to do with visas?

Surely it belongs in the Pattaya forum - where the Op might get some more offers of help, advice and information from folk who live there,and know the local situation, or even in the Health forum, where Sheryl might have some knowledge of what can be done through the Thai health system.

Just a thought....

[Mobi]

Frank, if you draw a blank at the Pattaya consulate, I think you should go ahead with trying to alert British newspapers.

But please be aware that they will only be interested in the story if you provide as much information as possible. They will certainly want the name of the man and what part of the UK he comes from, and any other background details, like what how long has he been in Thailand, what his job was etc., plus any information you are able to dig up on his family. They need to make a story out of it to be of interest to their readers.

They may even try to contact his family, which can't do any harm.

If you want any assistance in drafting up the email, I would be happy to help.

[Mario2008]

Moved to health forum.

[marstons]

As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

Ummm... what??

I know the UK government prefer people to be good little citizens, handing over all their money and being grateful they're allowed to keep enough for a couple of weeks in Spain every year, but last time I checked UK citizens (regardless of where they live) were still entitled to a modicum of healthcare - provided they could get their ass back to the UK of course...

If you have been outside the Uk for more the 3 months the UK citezens act you are no longer ordinary UK citezen and entitled to nothing health care wise. Despite any previous payments the letter adds

Edited February 20, 2012 by marstons

[marstons]

It is begining to look like the UK Embassy is about to get a 100kg incontinent bewildered guest. Sooner rather than later. I guess they could set him up with a shopping trolley and a pile of carriers bags if they do repatriate him, or they could arrange residential care. I will keep everyone posted when a 'solution' arrives. One way or the other.

The cruel side of me says....somebody take him to the BE in BKK with his passport in his top pocket and a note pinned to his jacket explaining the situation, gain entry to grounds and sit him down somewhere and leave him there.....the consular staff would choke on their G&T's, but at least they would be foced into doing something

The party taking him in could sit over the road with a cup of coffee and camera to hand and see what happens....if they turf him out...photos and story to the British newspapers

And a of course a guy who has dementia and is violent is going to go along with the process of getting through the armed guards and the turnstyle affair at the Embassey. i mean the British Embassey must be one of the easiest places in the world to walk into right now.

What would happen, he and all involved would be arrested and probably put in prision.

Edited February 20, 2012 by marstons

[bendix]

Sigh . . yet another case of a foreigner over here with no way to support himself, and now relying on other people to help him out.

Dementia or no dementia, it's just so irresponsible to not even have enough cash to go home. He didnt always have dementia, presumably.

I can't help thinking the forum's sympathies are being directed in the wrong place here, and if the guy is violent and is attacking his wife the police should be brought in. He is exhibiting criminal and violent behaviour - it goes without saying that if this was happening in the UK, people would be calling for the police.

That he chooses to be in Thailand - with all the implications (legal, police etc) that that entails - is his own doing.

[steve187]

do we know if the man is in receipt of a uk pension, it may be in the thread but having read through i don't think i read it.