Why So Cynical?

[StreetCowboy]

It's the same with most big forums. 99% junk from a few prolific posters who have nothing better to do than sit at home and moan about life on the internet. You wouldn't pay them a blind bit of notice in the real world (which is why they come online), so why bother on here. There is good stuff to, but it takes a lot of wading.....

I've never come online. Am I missing something?

I nearly said "you have 187osts" but then I got it. Don't necessarily believe it, however

If you sit far enough back, you should miss something...

[473geo]

If you live with the expectation that Thailand promotes similar social values as your home country.......you will be disappointed

If you live with the expectation that if you complain it will always make a radical and immediate difference........you will be dissappointed

If you live with the expectation that you do not have to accept and intergrate into any of the social norms of Thailand.......you will be dissappointed

If your expectations capture some form of all three above, you may feel better about yourself and your values, but you are not going to feel so good about Thailand

Your choice...turn into a cynic.......or manage your expectations.....Thailand was Thailand when you selected your location

Edited February 25, 2012 by 473geo

[HardenedSoul]

I don`t think Thai visa members are cynical. I would describe them more as worldly and there is a difference.

Many of us have done the rounds, you know? Read the book, seen the movie and have the tee-shirt.

When it becomes obvious that an OP is inexperienced, such as the sin sot farces for example, or should I give my girlfriend 5 million baht to open a bar scenario, than posters try to install into the OP the reasons why these things are not good ideas and describe from they’re knowledge and experience their reasons for being against it. This is giving good advice and not being cynical.

Have any of you heard the saying; ask a silly question, receive a silly answer? Because in many cases here on Thai visa some of the inquiries put forward by OPs are just plain stupid, such as; where can I buy a deodorant and so on.

Another example, a female OP asks; I have been offered a job modelling in Chiang Mai, should I take it? Then the posters will warn against this and the pitfalls involved. Again this is not cynicism.

The bottom line is that it all depends on the topics in general what sorts of responses an OP will receive from the members.

On the surface that sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation but there is also the type of cynicism that many use in an effort to bring others down to their level.

Let's look at the time-honoured topic of Thai women:

If, for example, someone comes on and asks a question about the possibility hooking up with the Holy Grail (as far as the demographic on here are concerned) of women - namely, educated, young-ish, Thai-Chinese, good family, yada-yada - the vitriolic responses suggest that the original poster doesn't have even a snowball-in-hell's chance regardless of the very real possibility that he may not resemble a 65yr old, wheezing, 350lb walrus-like neanderthal who can't string a sentence together without a liberal sprinkling of expletives. Often, this stems from the respondents' bitterness at their own inability to secure a female of such pedigree since, in their minds, if they can't, no one else can.

Then, of course, there's the thorny issue of Thai women that don't fall into the "Holy Grail" category. According to the Thaivisa geriatric consensus, these women are only after money and will resort to any tactic to get it. They conveniently discount the fact that just because it happened to them, it won't necessarily happen to a foreigner who's good with women and smart enough to attract them with his personality rather than his largesse at the bar.

Cynicism aimed at an obvious troll or a so-daft-it-ought-to-be-illegal question is one thing but there are many occasions where it's simply not warranted.

One useful aspect of this gratuitous negativity, however, is that anyone with even a modicum of common sense can learn how NOT to think if he/she wants to get on and have a happy, rewarding and productive life in the Kingdom

[IanForbes]

I don't see much difference in the countries other than just a different way of using corruption. I've seen many examples of fine policemen in Thailand... just as I personally know some great policemen in Canada. But, it is the SYSTEM that is wrong. People in power tend to abuse it for their own personal reasons. That is why I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of ANY politician's mouth. I can bribe most Thai policemen for a simple traffic violation. The bribe goes into their pocket and helps subsidize the system of poor pay. For $3 to $6 I can get out of paying what woudl cost me $200 in Canada. Police in Canada are paid very high wages and have a good pension plan. They get paid out of my tax money... which amounts to about 25% to 35% of my income. In Thailand I don't pay taxes so I have to subsidize the police in other ways. In Canada if I illegally park my car I have to pay a minimum of $25 and that can escalate dramatically upward. In Thailand you can double or triple park, and block entire roadways for free. Yes, as a foreigner I have to pay 4 times the cost of a Thai to visit a National Park. But, it's seldom more than what I would pay just for parking anywhere in Canada. If I was a young Thai male I could inseminate a dozen young women and not be required to pay for any of the children. In Canada I have to support a woman for years if I get her pregnant. Or, even if she is living with me and gets pregnant to another man, I still have to support her and her child out of wedlock.

It is VERY easy to get cynical when you watch what is going on around us on any given day.

I just love this SYSTEM theory. The SYSTEM is wrong so if I bypass the SYSTEM then I'm not doing anything wrong.

The benign corruption you allude to and which gets you off a traffic violation is the same system of corruption that is at the bottom of Thailand's abysmal record of People Trafficking, Wildlife Abuse, Political Murders, Business Related Murders and on a far larger front, but getting a lot less press time, the abuse of the rights of Thailand's stateless minorities and the poor.

A few hundred Baht in a Cop's back pocket is OK because it is cheap to you, and anyway hey ho you don't pay taxes here. Perhaps if you have some free time next week, take a day out to your nearest industrial area on Pay Day, you'll see these self same Cops milking factory workers as they head home with their month's pay.

Yep, your all right Jack.

I'm NOT saying it is right; I'm just saying that it is the system in each particular country. I DO know what could be and should be, but isn't. Of course I also realize we are humans and people will use whatever means possible to get ahead of the game... even if it means flat out theft. If you can't beat them then you have to join them. I use our Canadian system of tax right-offs so I don't have to pay as much at the end of the year. Noam here on thaivisa has stated many times that he likes the lack of proper taxing in Thailand. He uses the system for his own benefit. When I hear some politician, or big business company executive tell me what he is going to do for me I immediately wonder what sneeky scheme he has planned to bilk the public out of their money for his own personal gain. I can't say I've ever been wrong with my cynicism.

My younger sister has lived in London, England for the past 30 years. Leslie is a world traveler and a pretty smart gal. She has no use for the British Bobbies. She has a hundred stories of their uselessness and has personal experiences to back that up.

I've got American friends who tell me the same thing in their country. I used to have the greatest respect for the Canadian RCMP, and I have 5 friends who work for the force, but I've seen far too many occasions where the RCMP have abused their position of authority.

[GuestHouse]

I DO know what could be and should be, but isn't. Of course I also realize we are humans and people will use whatever means possible to get ahead of the game... even if it means flat out theft. If you can't beat them then you have to join them.

Some people, but by no means all people will use whatever means to get ahead. And not being able to beat them is not a mandatory instruction to join them.

You are right in a sense. We each make a choice on these things, my observation is that the vast majority of people make choices that do not break the law, or encourage others to do so.

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I've not had as much experience of the police as you claim she has - These things are subjective, the UK Home Office survey on the subject can be found here [http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/police-research/hosb1910/hosb1910?view=Binary]

I'd love to see a similar report on the perceptions of the Thai police force.

[ludditeman]

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I doubt many Thais fit into your western Victorian Christian ideas of 'honest' and 'moral'.

Or even understand your definitions of 'honest' and 'moral'

Edited February 25, 2012 by ludditeman

[473geo]

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I doubt many Thais fit into your western Victorian Christian ideas of 'honest' and 'moral'.

Or even understand your definitions of 'honest' and 'moral'

That is surely one valid point, if another country raises the population with conflicting ideas of morality and honesty to your own.......why would you assume you are running the correct version?

[cardholder]

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I doubt many Thais fit into your western Victorian Christian ideas of 'honest' and 'moral'.

Or even understand your definitions of 'honest' and 'moral'

That is surely one valid point, if another country raises the population with conflicting ideas of morality and honesty to your own.......why would you assume you are running the correct version?

Often because the other one, by comparison, looks as bent as a Nine Bob note !

[473geo]

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I doubt many Thais fit into your western Victorian Christian ideas of 'honest' and 'moral'.

Or even understand your definitions of 'honest' and 'moral'

That is surely one valid point, if another country raises the population with conflicting ideas of morality and honesty to your own.......why would you assume you are running the correct version?

Often because the other one, by comparison, looks as bent as a Nine Bob note !

Indeed, and usually because the comparison comes from a view that nine bob notes exist in one system only...........but we know that is not really the case if the evaluation is conducted below surface level...............especially where one of the countries is much more open about the way their system actually works

[GuestHouse]

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I doubt many Thais fit into your western Victorian Christian ideas of 'honest' and 'moral'.

Or even understand your definitions of 'honest' and 'moral'

That is surely one valid point, if another country raises the population with conflicting ideas of morality and honesty to your own.......why would you assume you are running the correct version?

In response to both 473geo and Ludditeman, it has been my observation that the core civil values of every place I've ever been are identical to a point of not being distinguishable. Honesty and civility are human values, they do not belong to anyone religion (though they are shared by all) and the certainly were not invented by the Victorians or the Christians.

[MediumPaceBowler]

Let's look at the time-honoured topic of Thai women:

If, for example, someone comes on and asks a question about the possibility hooking up with the Holy Grail (as far as the demographic on here are concerned) of women - namely, educated, young-ish, Thai-Chinese, good family, yada-yada - the vitriolic responses suggest that the original poster doesn't have even a snowball-in-hell's chance regardless of the very real possibility that he may not resemble a 65yr old, wheezing, 350lb walrus-like neanderthal who can't string a sentence together without a liberal sprinkling of expletives. Often, this stems from the respondents' bitterness at their own inability to secure a female of such pedigree since, in their minds, if they can't, no one else can.

Then, of course, there's the thorny issue of Thai women that don't fall into the "Holy Grail" category. According to the Thaivisa geriatric consensus, these women are only after money and will resort to any tactic to get it. They conveniently discount the fact that just because it happened to them, it won't necessarily happen to a foreigner who's good with women and smart enough to attract them with his personality rather than his largesse at the bar.

A long time ago my professor took me one evening to the Turf Tavern in Oxford. He told me the facts of life.

He said that the two biggest lies are I LOVE YOU and I WON'T COME IN YOUR MOUTH.

He said that success can be found in 18 holes. And he said that a woman is only ever 3 holes.

He said that there are two types of men in this world. He said that there are men who play 3 holes and there are men who play 18 holes.

He said that men who play 3 holes are doomed to fail while men who play 18 holes are destined to succeed.

He's dead now, btw.

[473geo]

Let's look at the time-honoured topic of Thai women:

If, for example, someone comes on and asks a question about the possibility hooking up with the Holy Grail (as far as the demographic on here are concerned) of women - namely, educated, young-ish, Thai-Chinese, good family, yada-yada - the vitriolic responses suggest that the original poster doesn't have even a snowball-in-hell's chance regardless of the very real possibility that he may not resemble a 65yr old, wheezing, 350lb walrus-like neanderthal who can't string a sentence together without a liberal sprinkling of expletives. Often, this stems from the respondents' bitterness at their own inability to secure a female of such pedigree since, in their minds, if they can't, no one else can.

Then, of course, there's the thorny issue of Thai women that don't fall into the "Holy Grail" category. According to the Thaivisa geriatric consensus, these women are only after money and will resort to any tactic to get it. They conveniently discount the fact that just because it happened to them, it won't necessarily happen to a foreigner who's good with women and smart enough to attract them with his personality rather than his largesse at the bar.

A long time ago my professor took me one evening to the Turf Tavern in Oxford. He told me the facts of life.

He said that the two biggest lies are I LOVE YOU and I WON'T COME IN YOUR MOUTH.

He said that success can be found in 18 holes. And he said that a woman is only ever 3 holes.

He said that there are two types of men in this world. He said that there are men who play 3 holes and there are men who play 18 holes.

He said that men who play 3 holes are doomed to fail while men who play 18 holes are destined to succeed.

He's dead now, btw.

Struck by lightning on a golf course no doubt......

[transam]

Let's look at the time-honoured topic of Thai women:

If, for example, someone comes on and asks a question about the possibility hooking up with the Holy Grail (as far as the demographic on here are concerned) of women - namely, educated, young-ish, Thai-Chinese, good family, yada-yada - the vitriolic responses suggest that the original poster doesn't have even a snowball-in-hell's chance regardless of the very real possibility that he may not resemble a 65yr old, wheezing, 350lb walrus-like neanderthal who can't string a sentence together without a liberal sprinkling of expletives. Often, this stems from the respondents' bitterness at their own inability to secure a female of such pedigree since, in their minds, if they can't, no one else can.

Then, of course, there's the thorny issue of Thai women that don't fall into the "Holy Grail" category. According to the Thaivisa geriatric consensus, these women are only after money and will resort to any tactic to get it. They conveniently discount the fact that just because it happened to them, it won't necessarily happen to a foreigner who's good with women and smart enough to attract them with his personality rather than his largesse at the bar.

A long time ago my professor took me one evening to the Turf Tavern in Oxford. He told me the facts of life.

He said that the two biggest lies are I LOVE YOU and I WON'T COME IN YOUR MOUTH.

He said that success can be found in 18 holes. And he said that a woman is only ever 3 holes.

He said that there are two types of men in this world. He said that there are men who play 3 holes and there are men who play 18 holes.

He said that men who play 3 holes are doomed to fail while men who play 18 holes are destined to succeed.

He's dead now, btw.

Think your Prof was a bit of a perv.

[473geo]

Like your sister I've travelled the world and I believe my view that the vast majority of people are honest, act morally and are not singularly selfish.

I doubt many Thais fit into your western Victorian Christian ideas of 'honest' and 'moral'.

Or even understand your definitions of 'honest' and 'moral'

That is surely one valid point, if another country raises the population with conflicting ideas of morality and honesty to your own.......why would you assume you are running the correct version?

In response to both 473geo and Ludditeman, it has been my observation that the core civil values of every place I've ever been are identical to a point of not being distinguishable. Honesty and civility are human values, they do not belong to anyone religion (though they are shared by all) and the certainly were not invented by the Victorians or the Christians.

The teaching of the application regarding order of importance can make a massive difference

[GuestHouse]

The teaching of the application regarding order of importance can make a massive difference

On the basis of my personal experience I can't see any evidence that the teaching of the application varies to any meaningful extent in the places I've had the privilege to live and work.

Maybe my view would be different if I had not been to these places?

[transam]

The teaching of the application regarding order of importance can make a massive difference

On the basis of my personal experience I can't see any evidence that the teaching of the application varies to any meaningful extent in the places I've had the privilege to live and work.

Maybe my view would be different if I had not been to these places?

Christ, l am really lost now.

[GuestHouse]

Christ, l am really lost now.

No, you've been lost for a longtime, the only thing that has changed is you now know the truth of it.

[HardenedSoul]

Your teacher was a buffoon

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[473geo]

Well let us speak of Thailand, it would appear that children here are trained to 'honour their Father and Mother' to my mind this is the top of the list.......

Therefore any subsequent action to benefit their parents, may in your eyes break all the rules, in their eyes it may be excused because the No1 priority is taking care of their parents and family.....

Simple prioritisation......

[IanForbes]

As much as I might be cynical I CHOOSE to ignore things that seem to bother everyone else. I seem to have rose coloured glasses surgically implanted on my eyes. I just feel sorry for the unhappy people. I CHOOSE to be happy and I have always enjoyed myself no matter WHAT happens. I can always see a positive side to everything. I don't lie, cheat, steal or play around with someone else’s woman. There are more than enough free ones available. If I occasionally speed or break some traffic law I only do it knowing there are no possibilities of an accident at that time. Although I was raised a Christian I can see that religion has caused as many problems, if not more, than it has solved.

So, I'll continue being a cynic and just make allowances for others. If someone else wants to take a risk then I might warn them, but I won't be adamant about it.

[GuestHouse]

Well let us speak of Thailand, it would appear that children here are trained to 'honour their Father and Mother' to my mind this is the top of the list.......

Therefore any subsequent action to benefit their parents, may in your eyes break all the rules, in their eyes it may be excused because the No1 priority is taking care of their parents and family.....

Simple prioritisation......

Or it may be that you have come across a case of Moral Horse Trading.

In Thailand where the social norm is to be seen to value family a prostitute might give the excuse she's selling her ass to support her family, in the US were education is valued she might say she is selling her ass for her education. The perceived social norm tells you nothing about what is actually going on.

[musiclover]

When you hang around ANYWHERE long enough, and keep your eyes open, you get to see how things operate. There is corruption in every society in every country, but it's just set up differently. The systems are set up intentionally to keep the poor, poor and the rich, rich. It's the subtle differences that fool the greenhorn visitors to any new country. North America and the UK are no less corrupt than Thailand. The leaders just market it differently. For example, take the police and the so called "Justice System" in North America and the UK. Those in charge pay high salaries to police, judges and lawyers, but nobody really does anything constructive. They are just there to further their own salaries. In Thailand, the police get a pittance for a salary and have to supplement that with graft. However, It winds up being the same thing.

You cannot be serious in this statement!

[transam]

Well let us speak of Thailand, it would appear that children here are trained to 'honour their Father and Mother' to my mind this is the top of the list.......

Therefore any subsequent action to benefit their parents, may in your eyes break all the rules, in their eyes it may be excused because the No1 priority is taking care of their parents and family.....

Simple prioritisation......

Wish that were true BUT it is not, not from stuff l have witnessed. Most here think of themselves if they have cash, but if they have nothing those think of the close family.

[transam]

When you hang around ANYWHERE long enough, and keep your eyes open, you get to see how things operate. There is corruption in every society in every country, but it's just set up differently. The systems are set up intentionally to keep the poor, poor and the rich, rich. It's the subtle differences that fool the greenhorn visitors to any new country. North America and the UK are no less corrupt than Thailand. The leaders just market it differently. For example, take the police and the so called "Justice System" in North America and the UK. Those in charge pay high salaries to police, judges and lawyers, but nobody really does anything constructive. They are just there to further their own salaries. In Thailand, the police get a pittance for a salary and have to supplement that with graft. However, It winds up being the same thing.

You cannot be serious in this statement!

Police do nothing, pay for their job for a reason. Loads of money to be made by the BiB but where are they, WHERE ARE THEY. I will tell you, doing their own thing covered by their job, thats why thousands are killed on the roads, murders are suicide, you name it.

[MediumPaceBowler]

Your teacher was a buffoon

You clearly didn't go to a top university.

And you clearly don't understand metaphors.

[473geo]

Well let us speak of Thailand, it would appear that children here are trained to 'honour their Father and Mother' to my mind this is the top of the list.......

Therefore any subsequent action to benefit their parents, may in your eyes break all the rules, in their eyes it may be excused because the No1 priority is taking care of their parents and family.....

Simple prioritisation......

Or it may be that you have come across a case of Moral Horse Trading.

In Thailand where the social norm is to be seen to value family a prostitute might give the excuse she's selling her ass to support her family, in the US were education is valued she might say she is selling her ass for her education. The perceived social norm tells you nothing about what is actually going on.

You show a perfect example of the cynical approach to any implementation of values that does not match your own expectation...........we do not live in a world of perfect values, honesty, equality, and adherence to a set status of social values. Poverty can easily change social values, war can certainly influence social values, is it right or wrong to steal if you are hungry........I place survival before the badge of honesty, for some that may well be a daily challenge..........and you can't see why there would be a variation in an individual priorities regarding the status of these social values?......perhaps there is a case that social values should apply to those who can afford to follow them....and if there are whole populations that have evolved through a differing order of social values, rather than condemn, you may wish to look into why

You appear to have travelled far and wide with a very closed mind

[473geo]

Well let us speak of Thailand, it would appear that children here are trained to 'honour their Father and Mother' to my mind this is the top of the list.......

Therefore any subsequent action to benefit their parents, may in your eyes break all the rules, in their eyes it may be excused because the No1 priority is taking care of their parents and family.....

Simple prioritisation......

Wish that were true BUT it is not, not from stuff l have witnessed. Most here think of themselves if they have cash, but if they have nothing those think of the close family.

Emphasises another point I alluded to above, people holding access to a 'back up' from their country government, when they hit the bottom can afford a whole differing set of social values than those that don't..........you can't see this?

[ludditeman]

Honesty

Thais are taught it is OK to lie, they do it often, for many reasons

Western CV, are taught to never lie, it is bad

Morality

Thais don't have any problems with casual sex, even if they are married

Western CV, sex is always bad, a married person who has sex outside marriage is a bad person

I actually think those two Thai values are much more sensible than the WCV way.

Edited February 25, 2012 by ludditeman

[HardenedSoul]

Your teacher was a buffoon

You clearly didn't go to a top university.

And you clearly don't understand metaphors.

You're right, I didn't go to a top university but, rest assured, I understand metaphors perfectly well. Your professor was still a buffoon

[Berkshire]

When you hang around ANYWHERE long enough, and keep your eyes open, you get to see how things operate. There is corruption in every society in every country, but it's just set up differently. The systems are set up intentionally to keep the poor, poor and the rich, rich. It's the subtle differences that fool the greenhorn visitors to any new country. North America and the UK are no less corrupt than Thailand. The leaders just market it differently. For example, take the police and the so called "Justice System" in North America and the UK. Those in charge pay high salaries to police, judges and lawyers, but nobody really does anything constructive. They are just there to further their own salaries. In Thailand, the police get a pittance for a salary and have to supplement that with graft. However, It winds up being the same thing.

People everywhere throughout the world take the path of least resistance. In North America and the UK, the middle income people breed and turn their children loose as soon as they are educated enough to make it on their own. In Thailand the average Thai family has children who they HOPE will earn enough to look after the parents when they get old.

It is easy to be cynical when you see the same games being played time after time. If you follow thaivisa for more than a year then the same topics come up weekly, and most debate the same scenario of farang man meets pretty Thai girl... and then the troubles start.

This is very well written, Ian, and very much true. I'm often amazed that foreigners in Thailand will complain about corruption (which certainly is a problem in Thailand), but from the perspective that their homeland is somehow so above it all and can't possibly be as corrupt. But western corruption has become so sophisticated that the sheeps in the west can't even tell when they're being robbed blind.

Everyone should see the 2010 documentary "Inside Job" (narrated by Matt Damon) which discusses "the systemic corruption of the United States by the financial services industry and the consequences of that systemic corruption." It explains the 2008 financial crisis and who were at fault. Believe me, the list is long and distinguished, and they will never be held to account. We're talking hundreds of billions of dollars basically being transferred from the middle class to all of these "insiders." And yet, farangs in Thailand will complain from their high-horse about the BiB taking 200 bt for a traffic violation. Ignorance is truly bliss.