UK pensions

[My Thai Life]

OK thanks Vogie, yes my NI number is tattooed on my brain, even after all these years!

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, sumrit said:

That's simply not true. That was scrapped for all pensioners who retired after April 2010

 

 

Simply not true again.

 

I returned to the UK  for a month in June this year to attend a friend's funeral so thought, while I was there I would have my eyes tested (a pensioner plus there's glaucoma in the family to the test should be free), go to a dentist and visit a GP to get my painkillers (suffer from cervical spondylosys and osteo arthritis so am in constant pain). ALL THREE said I wasn't entitled and must attend as a private patient and pay the full price of course. Both the Doctor and Optician said I must wait three months then declare I'd returned to the UK  for good to get NHS treatment again.

 

Don't know about the pension returning to current rates as I didn't ask.  But another friend of mine who returned to the UK earlier this year (initially just for a month) had a stroke after about three weeks so is still there and still receiving treatment. He had applied for a council tax rebate but was refused because he hadn't been in the UK for three months, plus social services applied for an increase on his pension on his behalf and, although he did get it (along with a small amount of pension credit), he told me it wasn't paid for the first three months.

 

I know various posters on here have said they've got the pension increased when they went back to the UK but I don't know if it was paid from day one. I can only say what's happened to my mate.

 

Also, when he was taken to hospital he was told by an administrator that he might have to pay for treatment but nothing's been said since. 

 

When you return to take up residence (not just for a holiday) then you are eligible to use the NHS from day one. It is not wrong. This has been established in law.  In reality, most people would never disclose they live abroad, and are not asked.  

 

Council tax is a different issue.  I believe there is a qualifying period.  But surely this is a small concern.

 

Yes, it's quite possible that the three month delay applies to the pension uprating.  I am not sure if the 3 months means the upgrade is not paid at all, or merely delayed.

 

Not so much wrong- so much as not wholly correct. But the issues you raise are peripheral.

 

Edit: Take a look at this:https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs25_returning_from_abroad_fcs.pdf

 

You were clearly advised incorrectly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by mommysboy

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, sumrit said:

That's simply not true. That was scrapped for all pensioners who retired after April 2010

 

 

Simply not true again.

 

I returned to the UK  for a month in June this year to attend a friend's funeral so thought, while I was there I would have my eyes tested (a pensioner plus there's glaucoma in the family to the test should be free), go to a dentist and visit a GP to get my painkillers (suffer from cervical spondylosys and osteo arthritis so am in constant pain). ALL THREE said I wasn't entitled and must attend as a private patient and pay the full price of course. Both the Doctor and Optician said I must wait three months then declare I'd returned to the UK  for good to get NHS treatment again.

 

Don't know about the pension returning to current rates as I didn't ask.  But another friend of mine who returned to the UK earlier this year (initially just for a month) had a stroke after about three weeks so is still there and still receiving treatment. He had applied for a council tax rebate but was refused because he hadn't been in the UK for three months, plus social services applied for an increase on his pension on his behalf and, although he did get it (along with a small amount of pension credit), he told me it wasn't paid for the first three months.

 

I know various posters on here have said they've got the pension increased when they went back to the UK but I don't know if it was paid from day one. I can only say what's happened to my mate.

 

Also, when he was taken to hospital he was told by an administrator that he might have to pay for treatment but nothing's been said since. 

I can assure you that from day one, your pension is increased. However should you return to Thailand within two years,your pension will revert to the amount before you left. Also you are entitlement for NHS from day one,although they May ask for your new permanent address. 

 Regarding you friends experience in being refused treatments, perhaps he was too honest and told them he was now a ex-pat. If he had kept quite, and said he was still a U.K. resident, again he would possible have received the treatments.

 What do you think happens when both illegal immigrants and E.U citizens, who have never paid N.I.  attend for medical treatment in the U.K ?

 

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

1. Sandy. The government pensions provision has changed numerous times in recent years, and in numerous ways. This self-evidently shows it has not been sustained in line with past practice; and it cannot be sustained in line with present practice. This unsustainability is due to the baby boomers retiring: we've all  been aware of this unsustainability for 30 or more years. And some of us have taken the necessary steps to address this.

 

 

More inaccurate opinion. The government pension provision has not been changed numerous times in recent years,only in 2016, you are confusing pension provision and additional pension.

Take the man who reached 65 in March 2016 had over 35 qualifying years but had never earned enough to contribute to additional pension, he would have been awarded a pension of around £118.wk.

Had that same man reached 65 in April 2016 he would have been awarded a pension of around £155/wk, where does "not been sustained " come into it.

The 2016 reforms were beneficial to those on low incomes, made little difference to those fully contracted out, a bit complicated for those partially contracted out. The real losers were those on better incomes that had not contracted out, effectively forcing them into taking out a private scheme.

 

Your previous comment implied you thought you had made a good decision in opting out, but again as you have no way of knowing, it was generalised opinion. When individuals got the right to opt out, 1987 I think, all the financial gurus were saying those under 45 should opt out, within a few years most had changed their mind and were saying to get back in.

The problem here is that many on opting out put some of their own money into the personal plan and lost sight of the returns on the NIC component. The government has never revealed how NIC was broken down and allocated so no one can ever state categorically if it was better to opt out and supplement the plan or stay in and take out a plan on the same basis as the supplement. Generally people who have opted out are considered to be better off but usually as a result of self funding and cannot be compared to the person that has never paid any extra.

 

I am as much of a critic as the next person on the governments management of the state pension but in doing so it is better to stick as close as possible to the facts of the matter rather than making unsubstantiated remarks.

 

 

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

I can assure you that from day one, your pension is increased. 

 

Yes, even for temporary visits. I have just received £109 from the DWP for 4 weeks in the UK, I think they work on a weekly basis so for 29 days I got 5 weeks, last year for 28 days I got £83.

About the only legal way to get full pension whilst in Thailand,even if only for 6 days.

Edited August 1, 2018 by sandyf

[nong38]

I recall the time of "contracting out" of the State pension scheme and how confusing it was, how confusing pensions were and what to do! The older you get the more important they become and you really should try and make some sense of it.  Sometimes you are in the right place at the right time and that place was Salisbury railway station, I was making some recordings and man came up to me and we started chatting, it seemed he and some of hs chums were running a railway excursion from Aylesbury to Plymouth and would I do the sound recordings as they wanted to have a complete record of the day, I agreed, it turned out that he was a senior pension manager for the NHS so my first understanding of pensions started here when I asked him if he would look my company pension and tell me what he thought and contracting out? I did not contract out and I stayed with the company scheme.

As I approached 60 I knew I could take early retirement, it was usually welcomed so I come off the payroll and they get someone cheaper to take my place, you know how it goes, eventually. My internal forecast was that if I stayed another 5 years my pension would go up 8 GBP a week, it took me about 1/10 of a second to decide particularly when I knew I would also be paid a "temporary pension - equivalent to the State Pension until I could claim the State Pension ( that little perk was designed to retire people and has since been dropped ). I went at 60 with no regrets so far although with the changing goalposts you do have to keep, my company pension is now divided into 3 time zones with a different ( possibly ) figure for each, some based on some years at RPI, some years on CPI and the earlier years based on the "board's discretion" so its been complicated, at one time it was just whatever the December inflation figure was.

We just have to hope that we have a grasp of what is currently going and what might affect us in the future so we can do some planning.

[My Thai Life]

Sandy "More inaccurate opinion. The government pension provision has not been changed numerous times in recent years,only in 2016, you are confusing pension provision and additional pension."

 

Actually Sandy, it is you who are confusing technical pensions terms with general terms.

 

Government pensions provisions in the broader sense have changed numerous times in recent years, and there are clear plans for this to continue. Take a look at claimants age rules for starters, or the recent dipping into tax income. Moreover, this boomer effect has been common knowledge for anyone who has watched the news or read a newspaper in the last 40 years.

 

As for opting out, again I didn't mean that in the narrow UK pensions technical terminology, but in the general sense of opting out, including have been a globetrotting expat for a very long time.

 

As a former manager in the pensions industry in a well known UK provider, albeit a long time ago, I am quite familiar with pensions principles and processes. You seem to want to start an argument, but I'm not interested thanks.

[evadgib]

To be fair this thread gets trolled on a weekly basis therefore I understand when some regulars (inc me) appear to nit-pick ?

Edited August 1, 2018 by evadgib

[evadgib]

Of interest to this board:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hmrc-warns-its-time-to-declare-offshore-assets

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, nong38 said:

I recall the time of "contracting out" of the State pension scheme and how confusing it was, how confusing pensions were and what to do! The older you get the more important they become and you really should try and make some sense of it.  Sometimes you are in the right place at the right time and that place was Salisbury railway station, I was making some recordings and man came up to me and we started chatting, it seemed he and some of hs chums were running a railway excursion from Aylesbury to Plymouth and would I do the sound recordings as they wanted to have a complete record of the day, I agreed, it turned out that he was a senior pension manager for the NHS so my first understanding of pensions started here when I asked him if he would look my company pension and tell me what he thought and contracting out? I did not contract out and I stayed with the company scheme.

As I approached 60 I knew I could take early retirement, it was usually welcomed so I come off the payroll and they get someone cheaper to take my place, you know how it goes, eventually. My internal forecast was that if I stayed another 5 years my pension would go up 8 GBP a week, it took me about 1/10 of a second to decide particularly when I knew I would also be paid a "temporary pension - equivalent to the State Pension until I could claim the State Pension ( that little perk was designed to retire people and has since been dropped ). I went at 60 with no regrets so far although with the changing goalposts you do have to keep, my company pension is now divided into 3 time zones with a different ( possibly ) figure for each, some based on some years at RPI, some years on CPI and the earlier years based on the "board's discretion" so its been complicated, at one time it was just whatever the December inflation figure was.

We just have to hope that we have a grasp of what is currently going and what might affect us in the future so we can do some planning.

" I did not contract out and I stayed with the company scheme."

Contracting out refers to the state pension, if you were in a company scheme you were probably already contracted out. Contracting out for companies started with SERPS in 1978. It was nearly 10 years later before it was available to individuals and that is when the confusion kicked in.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Sandy "More inaccurate opinion. The government pension provision has not been changed numerous times in recent years,only in 2016, you are confusing pension provision and additional pension."

 

Actually Sandy, it is you who are confusing technical pensions terms with general terms.

 

Government pensions provisions in the broader sense have changed numerous times in recent years, and there are clear plans for this to continue. Take a look at claimants age rules for starters, or the recent dipping into tax income. Moreover, this boomer effect has been common knowledge for anyone who has watched the news or read a newspaper in the last 40 years.

 

As for opting out, again I didn't mean that in the narrow UK pensions technical terminology, but in the general sense of opting out, including have been a globetrotting expat for a very long time.

 

As a former manager in the pensions industry in a well known UK provider, albeit a long time ago, I am quite familiar with pensions principles and processes. You seem to want to start an argument, but I'm not interested thanks.

No argument, you are perfectly free to believe what you want but you shouldn't try and make out your opinion is fact.

I have to assume you are one of the pension gurus that didn't change their mind on opting out.

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yes, even for temporary visits. I have just received £109 from the DWP for 4 weeks in the UK, I think they work on a weekly basis so for 29 days I got 5 weeks, last year for 28 days I got £83.

About the only legal way to get full pension whilst in Thailand,even if only for 6 days.

Did you have to ask them for that or did they know you were there?

[nong38]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

" I did not contract out and I stayed with the company scheme."

Contracting out refers to the state pension, if you were in a company scheme you were probably already contracted out. Contracting out for companies started with SERPS in 1978. It was nearly 10 years later before it was available to individuals and that is when the confusion kicked in.

I was never contracted out of the State scheme. My NHS pension chum told me stay as I am, I was lucky to bump into him.  At the time I think a lot did contract out thinking they could do better than the Govt scheme, only to find that was probably not the case.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

Did you have to ask them for that or did they know you were there?

You have to inform them of your return, and then when you go back.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

You have to inform them of your return, and then when you go back.

I imagine it is quite easy to overlook informing them when you go back.  I tend to be forgetful?

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

I imagine it is quite easy to overlook informing them when you go back.  I tend to be forgetful?

 

Yes indeed, if you take my example, post 4589. You will see it can be worth £2,000 per year. Now I’m sure someone will post that this is cheating, fair enough, but I certainly would not condem them, after all, why should I receive more than those living in Thailand,is’t that being cheated by the government.

[billd766]

33 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

Yes indeed, if you take my example, post 4589. You will see it can be worth £2,000 per year. Now I’m sure someone will post that this is cheating, fair enough, but I certainly would not condem them, after all, why should I receive more than those living in Thailand,is’t that being cheated by the government.

 

How about we split the difference between what you now get and what I have been getting since 2009? If you agree send me your bank details by pm. 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 

Yes indeed, if you take my example, post 4589. You will see it can be worth £2,000 per year. Now I’m sure someone will post that this is cheating, fair enough, but I certainly would not condem them, after all, why should I receive more than those living in Thailand,is’t that being cheated by the government.

In short: YES.

 

Sometimes you have to do things that you would otherwise prefer not to do.

[Mike Teavee]

On 7/31/2018 at 4:34 PM, My Thai Life said:

1. Sandy. The government pensions provision has changed numerous times in recent years, and in numerous ways. This self-evidently shows it has not been sustained in line with past practice; and it cannot be sustained in line with present practice. This unsustainability is due to the baby boomers retiring: we've all  been aware of this unsustainability for 30 or more years. And some of us have taken the necessary steps to address this.

 

2. My own question is aimed at globetrotters who have experience of claiming UK gov't pensions. If you have any relevant experience please feel free to share it. The gov't forms that I have looked at on the website seem to want a record of all work, even non-UK, non N.I. If anyone has real experience of this particular situation (not generalised "advice") I'd be very pleased to hear from them.

 

I had assumed that the gov't would be able to figure out my entitlement from my NI contributions, but it seems from their website that they are not able to do this. 

 

 

I've been working in Singapore for several years and have just paid the past 6/7 years National Insurance contributions via (Class 2) AVCs

 

In a nutshell,

• If you've not been paying PAYE in the UK you haven't been paying National Insurance, but you can pay Additional Voluntary Contributions (AVC) by completing the Social Security Abroad form NI38 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/social-security-abroad-ni38
• If you've been working overseas, you can top-up at the Class2 rate which is substantially less than the Class 3 
• If you've just been living overseas & not working, you can top up at the Class 3 rate
• To check your current NI Contribution Status go to https://www.gov.uk/check-national-insurance-record 

Attached is the quotes I got for Class 2 contributions (I initiated this January time so was able to go back as far as 2010/2011, doing it now you'd be able to go back as far as 2011/2012)... 

 

 

Comparison of Class 2 Vs Class 3 AVCs for 2018/2019 Tax Year...

 

(Apologies, I don't know why the 2nd pic is showing twice)

Edited August 1, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

How about we split the difference between what you now get and what I have been getting since 2009? If you agree send me your bank details by pm. 

Actually Bill, I think I deserve this little bit extra, with now living in the U.K after 20yrs in Thailand. The U.k. has changed drastically for the worse over these years, everybody seems to be miserable, compared with the Thais. And this is in the summer. You switch on the t.v. And you are dombarded with adverts for funeral cost insurance, presented by very overweight, I think women. And the petty bureaucracy,makes the Thais look efficient.  I spend all day, asking myself “why did I come back”. Allthough I have to admit, the roads are safer and there is a much greater variety of food,surprisingly at lower costs than in Thailand.

[BritManToo]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:10 PM, sumrit said:

I returned to the UK  for a month in June this year to attend a friend's funeral so thought, while I was there I would have my eyes tested (a pensioner plus there's glaucoma in the family to the test should be free), go to a dentist and visit a GP to get my painkillers (suffer from cervical spondylosys and osteo arthritis so am in constant pain). ALL THREE said I wasn't entitled and must attend as a private patient and pay the full price of course. Both the Doctor and Optician said I must wait three months then declare I'd returned to the UK  for good to get NHS treatment again.

How did they know you've been abroad?

(Always reminds me of the old wartime adverts 'Loose lips, sink ships')

[mommysboy]

58 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

How did they know you've been abroad?

(Always reminds me of the old wartime adverts 'Loose lips, sink ships')

People either let it or slip.  

 

Or some 'do gooder' tells them, usually a family member.

 

The odd thing is that the rules being applied are incorrect- a returner is entitled to NHS treatment from day one.

Edited August 2, 2018 by mommysboy

[evadgib]

On 7/31/2018 at 10:21 AM, evadgib said:

The International Consortium of British Pensioners (ICBP)

7 hrs · 

John Duffy, Chair of ICBP will be interviewed by the BBC 4 program "You and Yours on Thursday August 2nd at 12.15 p.m. UK time. You can catch it online at https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9

BBC.CO.UK

 

BBC Radio 4 - You and Yours

News and discussion of consumer affairs

Postphoned until Fri 10 Aug.

[billd766]

10 hours ago, nontabury said:

Actually Bill, I think I deserve this little bit extra, with now living in the U.K after 20yrs in Thailand. The U.k. has changed drastically for the worse over these years, everybody seems to be miserable, compared with the Thais. And this is in the summer. You switch on the t.v. And you are dombarded with adverts for funeral cost insurance, presented by very overweight, I think women. And the petty bureaucracy,makes the Thais look efficient.  I spend all day, asking myself “why did I come back”. Allthough I have to admit, the roads are safer and there is a much greater variety of food,surprisingly at lower costs than in Thailand.

 

That's it. NO Xmas card for you this year. 

[sumrit]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

How did they know you've been abroad?

(Always reminds me of the old wartime adverts 'Loose lips, sink ships')

All three asked where I'd been since I'd last visited them, in 2010. It was as if all three had been instructed to ask the question as soon as they saw the gap in somebody's records.

 

I was only going to be there for about a month anyway so, as various posters on this site have insisted that your entitlement to NHS care was re-instated as soon as you declared your intention to remain permanently in the UK, I decided to declare where I'd been staying and state I was returning to the UK permanently. 

 

All three independently stated I'd have to pay privately and wouldn't be entitled to NHS care for (at least) three months. The doctor (a temporary doctor at the surgery) added that, if I required emergency treatment it was available at the hospital casualty department, but she didn't know for sure if it would be free.

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, sumrit said:

All three asked where I'd been since I'd last visited them, in 2010. It was as if all three had been instructed to ask the question as soon as they saw the gap in somebody's records.

 

Dude, learn to lie.

"I was staying with my cousin in Newcastle", etc.

"I've been a bit unlucky, lost my house and been living rough"

Edited August 2, 2018 by BritManToo

[mommysboy]

26 minutes ago, sumrit said:

All three asked where I'd been since I'd last visited them, in 2010. It was as if all three had been instructed to ask the question as soon as they saw the gap in somebody's records.

 

I was only going to be there for about a month anyway so, as various posters on this site have insisted that your entitlement to NHS care was re-instated as soon as you declared your intention to remain permanently in the UK, I decided to declare where I'd been staying and state I was returning to the UK permanently. 

 

All three independently stated I'd have to pay privately and wouldn't be entitled to NHS care for (at least) three months. The doctor (a temporary doctor at the surgery) added that, if I required emergency treatment it was available at the hospital casualty department, but she didn't know for sure if it would be free.

 

 

They were applying a rule that was in existence but no longer applies.  You were very badly advised. It's not uncommon for the uninformed to take a clause from another benefit and graft it on to the one at hand.

 

I was back in the UK 18 months ago, and did much the same as you.  Nobody asked any questions.  And most people have said the same. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Dude, learn to lie.

"I was staying with my cousin in Newcastle", etc.

"I've been a bit unlucky, lost my house and been living rough"

Yes.

[mommysboy]

 

The horses mouth:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496967/lawfully-resident-uk.pdf

 

'British citizens and their family members 5. “British citizens” have an automatic right of abode in the UK. A British citizen who has been living abroad, or who is migrating to the UK for the first time, can therefore pass the ordinary residence test upon taking up settled residence here. British Citizens who are no longer living and settled in the UK cannot be said to be Ordinarily Resident in the UK.'

[sumrit]

30 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Dude, learn to lie.

"I was staying with my cousin in Newcastle", etc.

"I've been a bit unlucky, lost my house and been living rough"

I was only going to be in the UK for a few weeks so it wasn't going to affect me greatly, but firstly, I was curious to see whether the comments made by various posters on here were truthful when they said we were entitled to free NHS as soon as we returned to the UK or just spouting bu****it and, secondly , to be successful as a good liar you must also have an exceptionally good memory, which most older people of my age no longer have.

 

 

21 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

They were applying a rule that was in existence but no longer applies.  You were very badly advised.

 

I was back in the UK 18 months ago, and did much the same as you.  Nobody asked any questions.  And most people have said the same. 

 

 

What, all three different and independent offices/surgeries giving exactly the same advice when the only connection between them was that they all work for, and are advised by the NHS??????

 

Given the choice of believing an anonymous poster here or getting the information direct from the horses mouth, I know who I would rather believe.

 

It doesn't mean I'm happy with the rules though, I still think they stink!