UK pensions

[evadgib]

This thread is well past its sell-by date. No useful information, just a bunch of old women moaning.

It's 'sell by' date will be the date on which the Govt corrects the error of their predecessors & stops hiding behind a litany of excuses. In the meantime i'm happy to post the odd newsworthy clip that might appeal to this particular audience & appreciate it when others do same.

When did you last add anything meaningful?

[theoldgit]

A number of off topic posts removed, as well as some with too many follow on quotes.

More to follow, but in the meantime please try and stay on topic.

[chiang mai]

The reciprical agreement is a convenient red herring, all that needs to changed is clause 20 of the latest Pension bill that went through Parliament just under a year ago.

As far as personal allowances are concerned I doubt that many people here have anything to worry about, our pensions arise in the UK and HMRC take their cut which we have no control over. Politically it would be suicide for them to withdraw personal allowances for pensioners who had left the UK, the public would not stand for it. The people who are most worried about the personal allowance situation are those people who changed their status in the past because it suited them to change their tax position. As we know the HMG have a history of moving the goal posts and what was right in the past may not be right today or in the future, I am sure you know who you are. You will just have to wait, like me and see what Osborn does and just in case anyone thinks I am a fan, well I am a great fan of chucking him the Thames! He is a little upstart who thinks he is a gift to the UK, words could describe what I really think, I just wait for his demise until then we have to put up with the little toff with the fancy dan hairstyle!

My best way to poke him the eye is to stick his EU club and vote for a Brexit.

Well that's the thing you see, two of my pensions arise in the UK and both are within the personal allowance hence they are not taxed, removal of the allowance will result in a 20% loss to me personally and I suspect there are many others in the same boat. As for people not standing for it, methinks the vast majority of UK resident citizens will be at least a little bit pleased that expats are no longer receiving onshore benefits when they no longer live in the country, the mad rush by thousands of expats to claim winter heating benefits helped put a nail in that coffin. You know who you are!.

As for Osborne: he's a very bright lad and he's got balls plus he's doing his damnedest to get the UK out of the financial mess left to us by previous governments and by fairly recent world events. The fact that he's not doing all the things that suit you (or me) is really not the issue, he's actually doing a pretty good job, but would I like to go out for a beer with him or invite him around my house, no chance.

Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled. As someone who has never claimed any sort of benefit, I say best of luck to them. I just wish I had never been honest with my details to the UK government,who have and are still cheating me and tens of thousands of other NI payers from what is rightly ours.

"Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled".

If you think it's OK to make fraudulent claims for benefits then we can't be friends on this subject because I don't, as we have seen, eventually every one gets hurt when that happens.

[evadgib]

If you think it's OK to make fraudulent claims for benefits then we can't be friends on this subject because I don't, as we have seen, eventually every one gets hurt when that happens.

<deleted post>

Edited January 29, 2016 by evadgib

[nontabury]

The reciprical agreement is a convenient red herring, all that needs to changed is clause 20 of the latest Pension bill that went through Parliament just under a year ago.

As far as personal allowances are concerned I doubt that many people here have anything to worry about, our pensions arise in the UK and HMRC take their cut which we have no control over. Politically it would be suicide for them to withdraw personal allowances for pensioners who had left the UK, the public would not stand for it. The people who are most worried about the personal allowance situation are those people who changed their status in the past because it suited them to change their tax position. As we know the HMG have a history of moving the goal posts and what was right in the past may not be right today or in the future, I am sure you know who you are. You will just have to wait, like me and see what Osborn does and just in case anyone thinks I am a fan, well I am a great fan of chucking him the Thames! He is a little upstart who thinks he is a gift to the UK, words could describe what I really think, I just wait for his demise until then we have to put up with the little toff with the fancy dan hairstyle!

My best way to poke him the eye is to stick his EU club and vote for a Brexit.

Well that's the thing you see, two of my pensions arise in the UK and both are within the personal allowance hence they are not taxed, removal of the allowance will result in a 20% loss to me personally and I suspect there are many others in the same boat. As for people not standing for it, methinks the vast majority of UK resident citizens will be at least a little bit pleased that expats are no longer receiving onshore benefits when they no longer live in the country, the mad rush by thousands of expats to claim winter heating benefits helped put a nail in that coffin. You know who you are!.

As for Osborne: he's a very bright lad and he's got balls plus he's doing his damnedest to get the UK out of the financial mess left to us by previous governments and by fairly recent world events. The fact that he's not doing all the things that suit you (or me) is really not the issue, he's actually doing a pretty good job, but would I like to go out for a beer with him or invite him around my house, no chance.

Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled. As someone who has never claimed any sort of benefit, I say best of luck to them. I just wish I had never been honest with my details to the UK government,who have and are still cheating me and tens of thousands of other NI payers from what is rightly ours.

"Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled".

If you think it's OK to make fraudulent claims for benefits then we can't be friends on this subject because I don't, as we have seen, eventually every one gets hurt when that happens.

The greatest fraud being committed is by successive governments, against those who have paid N.I and tax throughout their lives. These same people are the one's who are financially hurt at the end of the day, certainly not the politicians and those who have paid little or nothing into the system.

Edited January 29, 2016 by nontabury

[chiang mai]

When parity is eventually restored no one will feel they've been forced into a position where they have to!

If you try and take the argument to that sort of level then you're asking for utopia and you may as well throw in peace amongst men and an end to disease!

Mostly I think this is question of degrees, sure the UK state pension is low by comparison but no matter what level it was pitched at there will always be people who try to defraud the system and it's that element that I'm uncomfortable with. The heating benefit issue is mostly opportunistic fraud and I don't think it's right that a pensioner says they claim it because they need aircon., that plainly was not the intent of the benefit at the outset and the risk is that over abuse of it will see it cancelled and those genuinely in need of it suffer, it's just not right.

[jacky54]

Not utopia, just fairness

[chiang mai]

Well that's the thing you see, two of my pensions arise in the UK and both are within the personal allowance hence they are not taxed, removal of the allowance will result in a 20% loss to me personally and I suspect there are many others in the same boat. As for people not standing for it, methinks the vast majority of UK resident citizens will be at least a little bit pleased that expats are no longer receiving onshore benefits when they no longer live in the country, the mad rush by thousands of expats to claim winter heating benefits helped put a nail in that coffin. You know who you are!.

As for Osborne: he's a very bright lad and he's got balls plus he's doing his damnedest to get the UK out of the financial mess left to us by previous governments and by fairly recent world events. The fact that he's not doing all the things that suit you (or me) is really not the issue, he's actually doing a pretty good job, but would I like to go out for a beer with him or invite him around my house, no chance.

Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled. As someone who has never claimed any sort of benefit, I say best of luck to them. I just wish I had never been honest with my details to the UK government,who have and are still cheating me and tens of thousands of other NI payers from what is rightly ours.

"Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled".

If you think it's OK to make fraudulent claims for benefits then we can't be friends on this subject because I don't, as we have seen, eventually every one gets hurt when that happens.

The greatest fraud being committed is by successive governments, against those who have paid N.I and tax throughout their lives. These same people are the one's who are financially hurt at the end of the day, certainly not the politicians and those who have paid little or nothing into the system.

It's what it is, if folks have a bee about governments and politicians there's a potential cure for that in the form of the vote but that's not the point of this discussion. And honestly, trying to deflect the argument away from fraudulent abuse and towards the role of politicians generally isn't really useful or sensible.

[chiang mai]

Not utopia, just fairness

Jacky, you've as much as told us you're using a convenience address to claim UK benefits whilst living in Thailand, what's with this business of fairness!

[evadgib]

When parity is eventually restored no one will feel they've been forced into a position where they have to!

If you try and take the argument to that sort of level then you're asking for utopia and you may as well throw in peace amongst men and an end to disease!

Mostly I think this is question of degrees, sure the UK state pension is low by comparison but no matter what level it was pitched at there will always be people who try to defraud the system and it's that element that I'm uncomfortable with. The heating benefit issue is mostly opportunistic fraud and I don't think it's right that a pensioner says they claim it because they need aircon., that plainly was not the intent of the benefit at the outset and the risk is that over abuse of it will see it cancelled and those genuinely in need of it suffer, it's just not right.

It was wishful thinking & had already been taken down before seeing your reply. Thankfully I'm more than a decade short of state pension age & want the matter resolved before I get there

Re Aircon; I can't see the difference between eligible claimants in Middlesborogh on say 31 Jan or ineligible claimants in Thailand during Songkran. I do however agree with means testing.

[MAZ3]

When parity is eventually restored no one will feel they've been forced into a position where they have to!

If you try and take the argument to that sort of level then you're asking for utopia and you may as well throw in peace amongst men and an end to disease!

Mostly I think this is question of degrees, sure the UK state pension is low by comparison but no matter what level it was pitched at there will always be people who try to defraud the system and it's that element that I'm uncomfortable with. The heating benefit issue is mostly opportunistic fraud and I don't think it's right that a pensioner says they claim it because they need aircon., that plainly was not the intent of the benefit at the outset and the risk is that over abuse of it will see it cancelled and those genuinely in need of it suffer, it's just not right.

It was wishful thinking & had already been taken down before seeing your reply. Thankfully I'm more than a decade short of state pension age & want the matter resolved before I get there

Re Aircon; I can't see the difference between eligible claimants in Middlesborogh on say 31 Jan or ineligible claimants in Thailand during Songkran. I do however agree with means testing.

I agree,in the same boat,nearly a decade away(unless they change the rules again)and what will the 2 or 3 Governments do?.

Don't believe in cheating,and 2 wrongs don't make A right,but the way OAPS have been treated just depending on their retirement destination is extremely unfair.

All my friends here have UK address and I would not have a problem doing/claiming the same,if its not resolved by my State pension age(assuming I make it!). No one I know was aware of this rule until quite near their retirement and acted accordingly.

[chiang mai]

I of all people should be unhappy with the way governments treat expat pensioners, I paid into the US system for fifteen years and left the US in 1982. In 1983 the US government passed their WEP bill which was designed to stop US government officials who worked overseas from claiming two pensions, later that year the bill was extended to anyone who had an overseas pension. The WEP bill reduces the normal US Sc pension in light of the second pension hence my US pension was reduced by 25% because I also had a UK state pension. In addition they decided that my US pension should be taxed at source, simply because I don't live in the US, thus another 24.5% chunk was taken, all these new rules having been made after I left. Today I'm under no illusion that the US and almost certainly the UK government will hit me again with some new ruling that will cost me. But what can be said, times change, there was never a written legally enforceable contract between us and rules will change, best a person can do is to expect to get bitten by changes in the future.

[i claudius]

Basically Chiang Mai I get the impression that you are cheesed of with all those who claim to live in the UK because you don't and you get screwed by the govt ,sour grapes spring to mind

Edited January 30, 2016 by theoldgit
Uneccesary follow on quote removed

[chiang mai]

Basically IC you're wrong yet again, I wrote that "I of all people should be unhappy", but I'm not, not once have I complained about any of it and not once have I been inclined to take the fraudulent steps that could be taken to recover much if not all of that withholding, grasping at straws springs to mind! You see I also could use a UK accommodation address and in doing so I would get the additional cost of living increases out of the UK and also negate the withholding tax on the US SSc pension, I could also have not declared my UK pension and that way I wouldn't have anything withheld. But I didn't and I wont because I don't live in the UK, I live in Thailand. I simply set out that story as an example of what governments have done and will do again in the future.

Edited January 30, 2016 by theoldgit
Unnecessarily long follow on quote removed.

[chiang mai]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

[loppylugs1]

. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

...but you have never been quite about anything,its eaten into you like a bad germ,jealousy that's what it all about. All the rubbish published "1234 " "its in there somewhere"year after year pathetic attempts to get people in the same pit as yourself "met at the airport" "Jail," "court" rubbish baloney

[jacky54]

Not utopia, just fairness

Jacky, you've as much as told us you're using a convenience address to claim UK benefits whilst living in Thailand, what's with this business of fairness!

Wrong, not that it has anything to do with you. I do not claim any benefits or state pension

[chiang mai]

Not utopia, just fairness

Jacky, you've as much as told us you're using a convenience address to claim UK benefits whilst living in Thailand, what's with this business of fairness!

Wrong, not that it has anything to do with you. I do not claim any benefits or state pension

I stand corrected, 2017 I see!

[metisdead]

Off topic posts, inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. This is about UK pensions, not about Usufructs in Thailand.

[nontabury]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

I don't know where you get the idea that those who have or will be affected by this unfair rule, are pretty quite about it. Just read through this thread and you will see many people are angry about it,and rightly so. In addition I know of others affected, who are not on TV and are also angry at the unfairness of it.

[evadgib]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

This raises two points;

1. Social media has only been in wide use by the group you imply are happy with their lot for around a decade; the internet a little longer. Subtract computer literacy, heath & any other age related factor from your demograph and you're left with a considerably smaller number, not one of which has ever admitted to me that they like or agree with the current state of affairs.

2. Since when has actively trying to correct an injustice before it affects the person concerned been anything other than the right thing to do? I don't want to be doing this after I reach pensionable age and if more of your group stood up when this first came to their attention it might have been nipped in the bud before the recession threw HMG a life-ring.

Edited January 29, 2016 by evadgib

[uptheos]

winter fuel payments should be made by way of a voucher that is used to pay utility services only.

Nah, it pays for the Christmas pressies.....don't be a grinch

[sandyf]

This topic like many others has been distorted by cross purposes and tangents. As far as the frozen pensions are concerned, those not in receipt of a state pension do not have a complaint to make, they may have in due course.

Those that are in receipt of the state pension fall into two basic groups, those that are dependent on the state for their pension and those with a basic state pension and a generous occupational pension, plus those that fall somewhere in between.

It is fairly obvious that those with the generous private pensions are less likely to be bothered about the state pension. I know several that see their state pension as pocket money.

The state pension being frozen to pensioners living in certain countries is not unfair, it is effectively legalised theft. The state pension is the government pension scheme and as such there are rules under which the scheme would operate. When I started work I was never given a copy of the rules, all that happened is that money was taken from your wages each time you were paid.

It has been mentioned that there was no written contract but contracts need not be written, verbal contracts can be just as legal. This begs the question, did what the government state at the time as rules,constitute a verbal contract?

The follow on would be, could subsequent governments change the rules for existing participants? It is normal practice in a pension scheme that if rules are changed it only affects new policyholders, this premise can be seen in the Armed Forces Pension Scheme.

Any participant that has paid the required premiums for the full term should be entitled to full benefits irrespective of where they live. Unfortunately it is very unlikely that the government would ever be taken to task over the matter. The directors of a private pension scheme would end up in prison for similar malpractice.

[Eclipse]

This topic like many others has been distorted by cross purposes and tangents. As far as the frozen pensions are concerned, those not in receipt of a state pension do not have a complaint to make, they may have in due course.

Those that are in receipt of the state pension fall into two basic groups, those that are dependent on the state for their pension and those with a basic state pension and a generous occupational pension, plus those that fall somewhere in between.

It is fairly obvious that those with the generous private pensions are less likely to be bothered about the state pension. I know several that see their state pension as pocket money.

The state pension being frozen to pensioners living in certain countries is not unfair, it is effectively legalised theft. The state pension is the government pension scheme and as such there are rules under which the scheme would operate. When I started work I was never given a copy of the rules, all that happened is that money was taken from your wages each time you were paid.

It has been mentioned that there was no written contract but contracts need not be written, verbal contracts can be just as legal. This begs the question, did what the government state at the time as rules,constitute a verbal contract?

The follow on would be, could subsequent governments change the rules for existing participants? It is normal practice in a pension scheme that if rules are changed it only affects new policyholders, this premise can be seen in the Armed Forces Pension Scheme.

Any participant that has paid the required premiums for the full term should be entitled to full benefits irrespective of where they live. Unfortunately it is very unlikely that the government would ever be taken to task over the matter. The directors of a private pension scheme would end up in prison for similar malpractice.

I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

[chiang mai]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

This raises two points;

1. Social media has only been in wide use by the group you imply are happy with their lot for around a decade; the internet a little longer. Subtract computer literacy, heath & any other age related factor from your demograph and you're left with a considerably smaller number, not one of which has ever admitted to me that they like or agree with the current state of affairs.

2. Since when has actively trying to correct an injustice before it affects the person concerned been anything other than the right thing to do? I don't want to be doing this after I reach pensionable age and if more of your group stood up when this first came to their attention it might have been nipped in the bud before the recession threw HMG a life-ring.

I wrote "many folks are bleating" and "quiet for the most part", I didn't write "all". I continue to believe that the most noise comes from the empty vessels, the people who are not actually affected today and these pages are proof of that, posters LL, and J54 being two of the most prominent!

And whilst I didn't write it I agree, I never set out clearly that I think the lack of annual uprating IS an injustice and those that are affected have every right to complain and protest, I've never felt any other way than that. Where I do have an issue however is that many of the complainers are either not affected because they are not recipients (and are retired, living in Thailand and clearly are about to fall into this next category) or, are using an accommodation/convenience address and claiming the uplift whilst living here.

[jpinx]

This topic like many others has been distorted by cross purposes and tangents. As far as the frozen pensions are concerned, those not in receipt of a state pension do not have a complaint to make, they may have in due course.

Those that are in receipt of the state pension fall into two basic groups, those that are dependent on the state for their pension and those with a basic state pension and a generous occupational pension, plus those that fall somewhere in between.

It is fairly obvious that those with the generous private pensions are less likely to be bothered about the state pension. I know several that see their state pension as pocket money.

The state pension being frozen to pensioners living in certain countries is not unfair, it is effectively legalised theft. The state pension is the government pension scheme and as such there are rules under which the scheme would operate. When I started work I was never given a copy of the rules, all that happened is that money was taken from your wages each time you were paid.

It has been mentioned that there was no written contract but contracts need not be written, verbal contracts can be just as legal. This begs the question, did what the government state at the time as rules,constitute a verbal contract?

The follow on would be, could subsequent governments change the rules for existing participants? It is normal practice in a pension scheme that if rules are changed it only affects new policyholders, this premise can be seen in the Armed Forces Pension Scheme.

Any participant that has paid the required premiums for the full term should be entitled to full benefits irrespective of where they live. Unfortunately it is very unlikely that the government would ever be taken to task over the matter. The directors of a private pension scheme would end up in prison for similar malpractice.

I've been saying for years that the government is running a Ponzi scheme for the state pensions. If anyone tried to do that as a private scheme they'd be in jail double-quick. The contributions I made have not been invested, nor even saved, to pay my pension now. The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. As we all know with Ponzi schemes, it can only last for a limited time before the current contributors become beneficiaries and there are not enough new contributors to pay them.....

[i claudius]

Can you not see the irony of it all IC, many folks here are bleating on about the unfairness of government yet many of those same bleaters are fraudulently claiming pension uplift and benefits or indeed some are not even old enough to claim their pension yet they are complaining about it all. Buut the guys that are genuinely non-resident, the ones who are truly affected by the frozen pension scenario are pretty quiet about it for the most part and accept that the rules are what they are, they don't like it if they're honest but they don't complain, what's that picture all about I ask myself.

C M.

cant you understand that someone who has worked all his life paid all his taxes and his NI , and expected a pension ,then finds out at the time he comes to a country to live outside Britain ,is not going to get what he paid in for ,especially when he reads that some low life has just walked through the Channel tunnel ,gets welcomed with a flat ,benefits and health care , especially as he has just been told that when he is home he is going to have to pay 150% of the cost of his national health treatment ?

and please dont say you knew you would not get your full pension , because 99% of us did not have a clue ,its not as if the govt shouted it from the rooftops ,it was just hidden away in the small print .

[theoldgit]

More off topic posts removed, and some follow on quotes.

[sandyf]

" The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. "

This is not strictly true. This is how my tax was distributed last year.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As you can see I contributed 12.8% to state pensions, one of them being my own. This brings another factor into the equation regarding the frozen pension,in that expats in receipt of state pension and continue to pay income tax are being penalised even more than even more than those that have ceased to pay tax.

It should also be noted that nearly 20 percent is paid to the health service. There must be some question mark over the legality of this. How can non-residents be made to pay for a service that has been deemed to be 'residence based'?

[i claudius]

" The rely on new contributors to pay for the current beneficiaries. "

This is not strictly true. This is how my tax was distributed last year.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As you can see I contributed 12.8% to state pensions, one of them being my own. This brings another factor into the equation regarding the frozen pension,in that expats in receipt of state pension and continue to pay income tax are being penalised even more than even more than those that have ceased to pay tax.

It should also be noted that nearly 20 percent is paid to the health service. There must be some question mark over the legality of this. How can non-residents be made to pay for a service that has been deemed to be 'residence based'?

OURS NOT TO REASON WHY,OURS BUT TO DO AND DIE